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Affirmative Action

T

Texas_Tickle

4th Level Orange Feather
Joined
Aug 28, 2002
Messages
2,950
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I know for some Affirmative Action is a touchy subject, but I just wanted to get your opinions on it.

Affirmative Action was designed to help the "minorites".

But today, in just about every major American city, the whites **are** the minority.

Given that fact, should whites be available for Affirmative Action? Why or why not?
 
Affirmative action is ironic. It's designed to put everyone on an equal plain, when it actually gives 'minorities' an unfair advantage.
 
Personally I do not believe in it. Here in California when it was eliminated as a criteria for selecting which students would attend a UC university. It was not "whites" who benefited most, it was asians who are a minority.

The whole thing is screwy anyway like at work I have a Iranian muslim friend, a Russian jewish friend and I am a Italian catholic. We are all considered "white" though. Does this make any sense? Why do you lump everyone from Korea, Vietnam, Japan, China, Taiwan, India, Cambodia, Laos as asian? How come people from Spain aren't hispanic by these criteria?

Bottom line just treat everyone the same.
 
No doubt the affirmative action system has its share of problems, but it has greatly increased diversity at companies and colleges, and until there's no more discrimination against minorities in the workplace, it's needed, and I'll continue to support it. Just my opinion. 🙂
 
There will always be discrimination in one form or another and you can legislate up the wazoo and never get rid of it. The thing that has made the workplace diversified is realizing that basing whether or not you hire someone on the amount of skin pigmentation or where they come from is just stupid. Stupid companies don't last long.

Second question how would you determine that there is no more discrimination? Does that mean every minority has to populate every sector of the busineess community equally? Suppose a particular minority group doesn't like engineering and they prefer business management. When most of the europeans came over the Irish tended to go more into policework and politics, Germans preferred engineering like jobs. This just means that people were free to make their own choices not to have it made for them. Was there discrimination against them? Certainly, but they overcame and were successful.

Affirmative action is the ultimate insult to minorities. It says your not good enough to make it on your own like others did. You need help. Just my humble view on the subject though.
 
I WAS going to keep my mouth shut

OK, true story:

About 7 years ago, I was unemployed. For those who don't know me, I am a white male. I went to the unemployment office to apply for a job. I applied for several different jobs that I was fully qualified to do. A man who worked at the unemployment office told me I was wasting my time. When I asked why, he said (and I remember his very words to this day), "In here (the unemployment office), they take the Hispanic applicants and give those to the company first. After that, they go to any black folks, African or American (he actually said that!), then to any Asians, then to the veterans. After all that, if they STILL have an opening, they'll consider your application."

Draw your own conclusions.
 
Re: I WAS going to keep my mouth shut

slacker2114 said:
OK, true story:

About 7 years ago, I was unemployed. For those who don't know me, I am a white male. I went to the unemployment office to apply for a job. I applied for several different jobs that I was fully qualified to do. A man who worked at the unemployment office told me I was wasting my time. When I asked why, he said (and I remember his very words to this day), "In here (the unemployment office), they take the Hispanic applicants and give those to the company first. After that, they go to any black folks, African or American (he actually said that!), then to any Asians, then to the veterans. After all that, if they STILL have an opening, they'll consider your application."

Draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...

My mother told me a story about when she went on a job interview and she met another woman there, who was also competing for the same job. The other woman turned to my mother and said "why waste your time, cause I am going to get the job". My mother turned at her and asked "why do you think that", to which the other woman said, "they have to hire me, because I am a black woman"

And sure enough, that's just what happened.
 
Shem, exactly what problems has affirmative action solved? Supposedly discrimination is still there. How long are we to maintain this farce? At what point do we say everything is equal now? Who gets to decide? How do you define equal? Its not a meritocracy to not consider someones ethnic or religous background when hiring or admitting to college. Thats equality. It is also true that companies that don't higher qualified people don't last whether you believe it or not. That is just the nature of competition in a free market economy.

Let me site an example of carrying this ridiculous ideal to an extreme. My father worked for the L.A. School District and to move up to a higher position you have to take a test and your score on the test determines your rank which determines your chances for getting the job. Well its a multiple choice test and if you get the answer right you got a point, if not you get no points. It turns out not enough minorties were scoring high enough to be considered for the higher positions. So what they did was rank the answers: the right answer was worth one point, the answer closest to the right answer was worth 3/4 point, the next right answer was worth 1/2 point, the third worst answer was worth 1/4 point and the worst answer was worth 0 points. Now in this new system everybody was getting scores between 85-100 and thus unless you were a complete moron you passed and were eligible for the higher position. Suddenly now all the quotas could be met and "the problem" was solved. Although now you have people working in LA Unified who couldn't fix a small engine if their life depended on it. This is the exact opposite of a meritocracy.

Let me give you a another example. Where I work I told my boss to higher this young Ethopian woman to be my technician. I told him to higher her because she was the brightest out of all the applicants. Not because she was black. Not because she was a woman. Only because she was the most qualified. Gee what a concept. Luckily my boss actually listened to me and we hired her and she is working out great. She also worked and got her real estate license so she will probably being making more money than me in a little while. What she is able to do has nothing to do with her gender or the amount of skin pigmentation she has. It has everything to do with her brains.

So be suspicious of me if you wish but I find it ironic that when I truly do look at everyone being the same regardless of race, gender, religion or sexual orientation that somehow people feel that I'm prejudiced. Happy Martin Luther King day to you to. By the way I have the same dream Martin but I would include women as well.


I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed - we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. ---Martin Luther King
 
You might be interested in a recent study done by a couple of economists at MIT and the University of Chicago. (I'd throw in a link, but it's on a pay-to-view site, and I'm cheap.) They collected 1,300 want ads from Chicago and Boston and made up 5,000 resumes to send in, half of which had traditionally black names, half of which had white names. All resumes were designed to be equally qualified for the positions they applied to.

Result? The "white-named" resumes got callbacks 50% more often than the "black-named" ones, even though the qualifications were equal. They also included two exceptionally well qualified resumes in each set, one black and one white; in every case, the exceptional white applicant was more likely to be called than the exceptional black one. Now, are all the companies who posted those ads doomed to failure because they have apparently discriminatory hiring practices?

As I said in my initial post, affirmative action is far from a perfect solution. But the only alternative you seem to offer is to just throw up your hands, let those who choose to discriminate do whatever they like, and hope they see the error of their ways eventually.

(Incidentally, affirmative action is a failure because we still have discrimination? Isn't that kinda like saying murder laws are a failure because people still kill each other?)
 
Hey

Im not trying to say that there are not white people that are racist...I am well aware that there are plenty. I just think that affirmative action is Bullshit. To screw us over because of the actions of others? Bullshit.
 
Shem, for college applications I would actually like to see a system where the names and ethnic backgrounds for everyone are kept hidden from the university until they decide who they want. That would insure there is no discrimation based on the persons name, gender or race. Although I know a black guy named Vladmir so if a person is hiring based on the sounds of names they might get a few surprises. The thing I like about this college ideal is if you can get more minorities better educated then other things like better jobs fall into place. Education is like a train if you miss it a lot of other opportunites are missed as well. Like I said earlier when "affirmative action" was dropped in California it was a minority who benefited most. That minority was asians and so less white people were actually accepted. Also as I said before there is a friend I have who is Iranian Muslim, another who is a Russian Jew, and I am Italian Catholic and we are are all considered white. Does this make any sense? Is it fair to lump everyone from Cambodia to Vietnam as asian? These choices seem arbitary to me.

Its hard to say if affirmative action is a failure or a success. I just asked some hard questions as to how do you define success. I also just wonder if it is better to do something like I said with college applications to answer the real problem. Also more community level colleges with lower admission fees would help as well. The question I have is are we making up quotas then patting ourselves on the back thinking we have solved the problem when we haven't really. Is this just a cheap solution so we don't go into black and hispanic communities and say "Hey lets talk and see what we need to do to get your kids a good education.". That is a long term solution but politicians want fast solutions which is why affirmative action came about I think. Has it helped some people? Probably. Can we do better? Definitely.
 
I am Asian-born, and Asians are NOT usually eligible for "affirmative action." In any case, I oppose ALL race-based and gender-based "special treatment," classification schemes, preferences, or penalties.

I favour a system in which a person's economic background and personal circumstances are given some weight in college admissions, to ensure that underprivileged students (mostly minorities, in fact, but some whites too) would have a fair opportunity to participate in higher education. Restoring MERIT-based scholarships would be a major step in the right direction. I oppose awarding scholarships to non-academically qualified "student" athletes regardless of race or other factors.

For the record, I am a Cambodian-born, economically disadvantaged former refugee with a 3.92 GPA who is not eligible for scholoarship assistance of any kind.

Love and liberty,
 
I agree MistressValerie that economics should get some consideration and I think creating more community level colleges might help in that regard as well. Merit based scholarships are also a good ideal.

An intelligent woman who likes tickling and supports a persons right to carry a gun and agrees with me on affirmative action. I'm really starting to like you MistressValerie.😀
 
True story:

My real name is considered to be "Black Sounding" by culture and many times in my life people were surprised to find out I was white after only reading my name on paper. (FYI,my name is NOT Joby hehe)I was a college student applying to work at a company that was very well known for being minority friendly. I applied because I liked the type of work. When I walked in for my interview, the interviewer's assistant asked if she could help me. I told her who I was and why I was there. Her eyes grew wide and she slipped up. "Oh, we though you were black." When I asked her to repeat herself, she backtracked and said she was just talking to herself, kind of mumbled and walked away waiting for me to follow. You should have seen the interviewer when I was introduced. It was a mix of shock and despair. I wasn't what they expected, and strangely enough I was the only applicant interviewed. On my first day at work, the watercooler crowd was quick to point out that it was past due time that a "black girl" was hired since they'd hired a Choctaw woman and a black man right before hiring me. Sad...sad....sad. I did get the job IN SPITE of my being white.


AA has become the very monster it is trying to kill. I'm not blind to the good intentions by any means, but when you sacrifice the integrity of the job for the sake of diversity, everyone suffers Re-read that____EVERYONE__SUFFERS!!!! No one comes out ahead when the standards fall. I'm not saying that hiring minorities or women automatically lowers the quality of the work. I'm saying that hiring anything other than a white male, when the white male is actually the most qualified, is just plain stupidity. To say that a government policy is going to correct anything that has to do with skin color is just a joke. Check out the incomptetence at any federal jobsite today. Employee diversity has become more important that the quality of production.

It's all just very sad.
Joby
 
Hm...

O/T
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My view is simple Affirmative Action is needed until the playing field is completely level and its still not.
 
Yea,

It never will be. Get your head out of your ass and realize that. Every single ethnic group has racists. But no one else gets a hand to help them. Except people like you. No matter, soon it will be gone, and then people will stop getting cheated.
 
Krokus Krokus Krokus stop your whining. Come to think of it maybe AA will be around for awile longer....hmm gives me a warm glow inside 🙂
 
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