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Almost 10 Million lbs of chicken & beef recalled from Aldi, Trader Joe’s, HEB, Walmart, etc.

Do we need a secure border? Yes. No one disputes that. However, if these corporations did not hire these workers, then they have no incentive to come. They come because they KNOW they will find work. What really needs to happen is certain group in government need to stop vilifying these people and help create policy that will help the migrants AND the border. But nope...Better to blame the migrants and do absolutely nothing about it.

You blaming migrants for this outbreak is grossly misplaced. And before you deny it, re-read your first post in this thread. You are blaming them. I worked with illegal migrants before and they did their job very well. Better than a lot of "Citizens". Let's face facts, Americans do not want to work in the fields all day in the hot sun picking produce. Years ago, a California farmer said he had hundreds of jobs in the field for citizens. Got less than 10. These farmers have no choice but to hire these migrants sometimes. So we really need to stop demonizing these people when they do jobs that no one else wants to do. They also pay taxes, but get nothing back. So they are contributing into the economy and get no benefits.
 
Do we need a secure border? Yes. No one disputes that. However, if these corporations did not hire these workers, then they have no incentive to come. They come because they KNOW they will find work. What really needs to happen is certain group in government need to stop vilifying these people and help create policy that will help the migrants AND the border. But nope...Better to blame the migrants and do absolutely nothing about it.

You blaming migrants for this outbreak is grossly misplaced. And before you deny it, re-read your first post in this thread. You are blaming them. I worked with illegal migrants before and they did their job very well. Better than a lot of "Citizens". Let's face facts, Americans do not want to work in the fields all day in the hot sun picking produce. Years ago, a California farmer said he had hundreds of jobs in the field for citizens. Got less than 10. These farmers have no choice but to hire these migrants sometimes. So we really need to stop demonizing these people when they do jobs that no one else wants to do. They also pay taxes, but get nothing back. So they are contributing into the economy and get no benefits.
I agree that these companies create the demand, and I agree that the government has done little to nothing about it in the last 20 years or so.

As for the farmer's experience, that will change if the border is secured, because then automation will commence.

As for "paying taxes but getting nothing back", that's not true. Legal migrants get benefits related to their children, if they bring their families with them. As for illegal migrants, I already explained the hazards of them using other people's SS numbers.
 
Have you really thought out your logic? Seriously, have you really thought about what you are saying?

Please explain in very simple terms why automation will commence once the border is secured. Why not do it now? Then they would have no need to hire illegal immigrants, right? That means that the migrants would not have an incentive to come over knowing there is no work. You are also saying these companies do NOT want to hire American citizens because they will have automation So, with all that, who are the real villains? It isn't the migrants...

Dude, the illegal migrants ARE paying taxes? Do you think all of those migrants are getting paid in cash under the table? No. They pay CHECKS. Which means they are on payroll. Which means taxes are deducted. Also, not all of them have fake or stolen SSNs. All you had to go was a simple google search. Here, follow these links and educate yourself:

https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/topics/tax-contributions

Do better. Stop believing that BS about these people. Thye are vilified because the real villains don't want you looking at them. The companies that exploit the people and screw the citizens while they are at it for the all mighty dollar.
 
Have you really thought out your logic? Seriously, have you really thought about what you are saying?

Please explain in very simple terms why automation will commence once the border is secured. Why not do it now? Then they would have no need to hire illegal immigrants, right? That means that the migrants would not have an incentive to come over knowing there is no work. You are also saying these companies do NOT want to hire American citizens because they will have automation So, with all that, who are the real villains? It isn't the migrants...

Dude, the illegal migrants ARE paying taxes? Do you think all of those migrants are getting paid in cash under the table? No. They pay CHECKS. Which means they are on payroll. Which means taxes are deducted. Also, not all of them have fake or stolen SSNs. All you had to go was a simple google search. Here, follow these links and educate yourself:

https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/topics/tax-contributions

Do better. Stop believing that BS about these people. Thye are vilified because the real villains don't want you looking at them. The companies that exploit the people and screw the citizens while they are at it for the all mighty dollar.
The reason automation hasn't been pushed much here in agriculture yet is twofold. First, automation requires a high initial investment. In the short run, it's much easier to hire a large amount of cheap labor. Think of how China and other developing nations often use this method of production rather than automation, while First World nations often go with automation instead for the same industries. You see it all the time in manufacturing, for example.

The second reason is agriculture is highly subsidized. If agriculture was a purely free market without subsidization and without access to cheap labor, the cost-benefit analysis would favor automation. This is why the Netherlands has a highly automated agricultural sector. They don't have access to as much cheap labor as us, and certain labor regulations there make it harder to hire foreign or illegal labor in that industry. They also are less subsidized overall than our agricultural market.

As for your "villains" comment, I think you're injecting more emotion into this than is necessary. My goal here isn't to demonize any particular group. I'm just pointing out the practical realities of the situation. Companies simply want to do whatever is cheapest given the market environment. Under current market conditions, that involves hiring migrants. If we change the market conditions, automation becomes the most desirable route.

If you understand how payroll tax works, undocumented workers do not have access to their own SS numbers. Otherwise, they would be documented. So, my point about using other people's numbers stands. Legal migrants are assigned numbers that are used for payroll tax, so there is no issue there. The issue is with regard to how illegal/undocumented workers are part of the system.

And for the last time, this isn't about vilification so much as it is calling out the significant problems that arise from illegal labor. I noticed your sources don't talk about the costs incurred by illegal labor.

https://cis.org/Report/Costs-Immigration
 
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This is an interesting conversation and I'm impressed that it's staying rational. But there's a little heat starting to show, and I don't want to have to close this if it can be avoided, so please just try to stay impersonal.
 
Morning, so what you are saying is, corporations do not want to pay a decent wage to people. They rather have illegal cheap labor, or automation rather than hire "legal" people and pay them a sustainable wage. You wonder why I am referring to them as villains? How does this business model help the regular citizens?

You ARE villainizing the illegal migrants. That is your entire point. That is your entire stance. You are pointing out this labor as a cause of many problems when it is not. These people DO pay taxes. Their employers know they don't have valid SSNs, so they (migrants) do not benefit from paying taxes. These people are not always paid in cash under the table. Their pay is accounted for and reported. They are paying taxes.

As for the costs incurred by illegal labor, enlighten me. Tell me these costs and I will simply come back and ask you, "If these are costs incurred, then why are they being hired?" It will always come back to the people who hired them, not the migrants themselves.
 
Morning, so what you are saying is, corporations do not want to pay a decent wage to people. They rather have illegal cheap labor, or automation rather than hire "legal" people and pay them a sustainable wage. You wonder why I am referring to them as villains? How does this business model help the regular citizens?

You ARE villainizing the illegal migrants. That is your entire point. That is your entire stance. You are pointing out this labor as a cause of many problems when it is not. These people DO pay taxes. Their employers know they don't have valid SSNs, so they (migrants) do not benefit from paying taxes. These people are not always paid in cash under the table. Their pay is accounted for and reported. They are paying taxes.

As for the costs incurred by illegal labor, enlighten me. Tell me these costs and I will simply come back and ask you, "If these are costs incurred, then why are they being hired?" It will always come back to the people who hired them, not the migrants themselves.
If one business is exploiting cheap labor, then its competitors are highly incentivized to do the same, even if they would pay better under different circumstances. You may consider that villainous, but it's reality. If you've ever run a business, you'll understand the situation involved. Businesses are not specifically run to "help the regular citizens." Charities are for that. Businesses are run to make a profit while providing a good or service. That may not be "compassionate", but it's not villainous either, unless things are taken further, like when a business intentionally risks the health of consumers. So, you could say that certain agribusinesses behave villainously if they are being negligent, but many of the sanitation issues in agriculture are a result of government restrictions on water, like I mentioned earlier. So there are a variety of factors that can lead to risks for consumers. Some of them can be attributed to businesses acting in malfeasance, but others aren't.

Illegal labor does have various problems, but if you want to deny that despite the source I provided, I don't know what else to tell you. And regardless of whether they pay taxes or not, the amount they pay in taxes is not likely to exceed the costs they incur.

I already provided a source for the costs, but I'm not going to provide another one until you actually read that one first. I guess if there is anything we might agree on, it's that holding employers of illegals accountable is something that should occur. Perhaps, we could agree that they should be prosecuted and/or fined?
 
I already provided a source for the costs, but I'm not going to provide another one until you actually read that one first. I guess if there is anything we might agree on, it's that holding employers of illegals accountable is something that should occur. Perhaps, we could agree that they should be prosecuted and/or fined?

Incidentally, do you know that the study you cited is from an anti-immigrant think tank?
 
You truly don't get it do you? First, that source your provided proves what? Do you even remember the topic we are discussing? Do yourself a favor and read the OPs original post. We are talking about all the food recalls that are taking place. How did the topic of illegal immigrants even come up in this discussion? YOU brought it up. You tried to blame the recalls on "illegal labor" and that's why we need a strong border. Sure, you will say there are other factors, but why even bring up illegal labor? Because you want an outlet to blame these people for the ills in society. So you add some random anti-immigrant study, and think "A Ha!! That will prove that illegal labor is the cause of our woes!".

That is why I don't care about your attachment. It is irrelevant. I could go on some rant about how the Red states are dragging the economy down, but what would the point be to this thread? Nothing. I am pointing out to you that illegal labor is not a cause of so many woes in this country. We need those people. The agriculture economy could collapse if you get rid of them. You also tend to defend big business more than you really should. To help you in your own rant, would these illegal immigrants even bother coming if the companies didn't hire them? They come because they need work. The companies are vilified because instead of paying people living wages, they rather go "cheap" and exploit people all in the name of greed. That will and should never be ok. Yes, companies are to sell a product and run to make a profit. However, there is a difference between making a profit and GREED. There is no justifiable reason to make others suffer just so you can make more money. The only reason companies make profits is due to labor. The "CEOs" are not producing everything themselves. They have people to do it for them. Why not pay those people sufficiently so they can keep working for you and making you money? Stop lowballing them.

Companies also try to get around regulations that help to keep people safe, all in the name of making more money. They are the true villains. Do we need them? Yes. But can they be less evil? Yes. There is a balance to be had, but they keep pushing it further than it needs to be in their favor. Yes, they should be prosecuted and fined. THAT will help a lot more than you know.
 
Incidentally, do you know that the study you cited is from an anti-immigrant think tank?
Anti-illegal immigration. Not anti-immigration in general.

Also, if we're going to critique sources by leanings, primetime's source is very pro-amnesty.
 
You truly don't get it do you? First, that source your provided proves what? Do you even remember the topic we are discussing? Do yourself a favor and read the OPs original post. We are talking about all the food recalls that are taking place. How did the topic of illegal immigrants even come up in this discussion? YOU brought it up. You tried to blame the recalls on "illegal labor" and that's why we need a strong border. Sure, you will say there are other factors, but why even bring up illegal labor? Because you want an outlet to blame these people for the ills in society. So you add some random anti-immigrant study, and think "A Ha!! That will prove that illegal labor is the cause of our woes!".

That is why I don't care about your attachment. It is irrelevant. I could go on some rant about how the Red states are dragging the economy down, but what would the point be to this thread? Nothing. I am pointing out to you that illegal labor is not a cause of so many woes in this country. We need those people. The agriculture economy could collapse if you get rid of them. You also tend to defend big business more than you really should. To help you in your own rant, would these illegal immigrants even bother coming if the companies didn't hire them? They come because they need work. The companies are vilified because instead of paying people living wages, they rather go "cheap" and exploit people all in the name of greed. That will and should never be ok. Yes, companies are to sell a product and run to make a profit. However, there is a difference between making a profit and GREED. There is no justifiable reason to make others suffer just so you can make more money. The only reason companies make profits is due to labor. The "CEOs" are not producing everything themselves. They have people to do it for them. Why not pay those people sufficiently so they can keep working for you and making you money? Stop lowballing them.

Companies also try to get around regulations that help to keep people safe, all in the name of making more money. They are the true villains. Do we need them? Yes. But can they be less evil? Yes. There is a balance to be had, but they keep pushing it further than it needs to be in their favor. Yes, they should be prosecuted and fined. THAT will help a lot more than you know.
The quality of labor is relevant to the discussion, because that impacts sanitation in the industry. Illegal labor creates risks that legal labor doesn't, because by its very nature, illegal labor is less transparent.

The agro economy will not collapse without illegal labor. It would simply have to adjust towards more automation. Also, we could adjust work visas as well.

To answer your question about would people still enter illegally, the answer is yes. It might lessen if there were fewer employers of illegals, but a lot of people arrive at the border due to NGOs that fund and supply caravans that come here. To find out more about that, look up what's going on at the Darien Gap.

I'm glad we agree on holding businesses accountable for illegal labor. Making sure that these businesses don't have the option of illegal labor is the only way to ensure better pay.

As for regulations, they're a mixed bag. Sometimes, they do effectively make us safer. Other times, not so much. The water restrictions I mentioned often don't typically help us. It's not the amount of regulations that matter. It's the design of them that does.
 
Anti-illegal immigration. Not anti-immigration in general.
I'm going to go with Anti-immigration. The group was founded by Otis Livingston Graham, who seems be anti-immigration.

"

Extract​

This slender volume recounts efforts to limit immigration throughout American history. Otis L. Graham Jr. argues that the restrictions, from the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 to the quota laws of the 1920s, benefited the country, and he urges that the United States reduce immigration today. Despite the book's subtitle, A History of America's Immigration Crisis, the book reads more like an article for a journal of opinion than a work of history; more than half of it is devoted to the contemporary drive to restrict immigration, which Graham favors because of the environmental, cultural, and economic problems immigrants allegedly cause.
Light on evidence, Graham's Unguarded Gates makes many claims that are either wrong or insufficiently supported. “In the public debate” leading up to Chinese exclusion, he writes, “the arguments for continuing the laissez-faire policy on national immigration were remarkably puny” (p. 11). Support for immigration in the period was actually quite strong, and contrary to Graham's assertion that the “government had a responsibility to respond to overwhelming majority opinion” (p. 12), he provides scant evidence that such overwhelming opinion existed. Graham says he deplores discrimination, yet he applauds the discriminatory National Origins Act of 1924 that relied on the 1890 census—rather than the 1910 census—specifically to discriminate against eastern and southern Europeans. He justifies the refusal by the United States and other nations to admit Jewish refugees on the eve of World War II, arguing that “such a response would have encouraged Hitler and all ‘ethnic cleansing’ leaders in the future to expel undesirable populations” (p. 73). Better such people should perish than such a precedent be set."

https://academic.oup.com/jah/article-abstract/93/2/615/831604?redirectedFrom=fulltext

As well as John Tanton, who also seems to be involved in anti-immigration as well as white nationalism.

"More damaging, however, was the leak, shortly before a 1988 English Only referendum in Arizona, of the so-called WITAN memos written by Tanton and the then-executive director of FAIR, Roger Conner. (WITAN was short for the Old English term "witenangemot," meaning "council of wise men." The memos were meant for Tanton colleagues who met at retreats to discuss immigration.)

The memos were replete with derogatory references to Latinos, reflecting a kind of entrenched bigotry that had only been suspected before. They complained mightily of the high Hispanic birth rate suggesting that Latin American immigrants would bring political corruption to the United States.

The memos included a demographic punchline that depicted Hispanics as hyperactive breeders and revolted many readers: "[P]erhaps this is the first instance in which those with their pants up are going to get caught by those with their pants down."


https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-...nd-behind-organized-anti-immigration-movement


Polifacts also notes the history of the organization and the racist activity it gets up to.

"Heidi Beirich, director of SPLC’s Intelligence Project, summarized why CIS landed on the list in the America’s Voice blog:

"CIS has a long history of bigotry, starting with its founder, white nationalist John Tanton, but in 2016, the group hit a new low. CIS commissioned Jason Richwine, a man who’s Ph.D. dissertation endorses the idea of IQ differences between the races, to write multiple reports and blog pieces for the organization. The group also continued to circulate racist and anti-Semitic authors to its supporters, and finally, staffer John Miano attended the white nationalist group VDARE’s Christmas party in December."

https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/mar/22/center-immigration-studies-hate-group-southern-pov/



As for Primes sources, from my quick search, I believe the first one did show some bias from the organization, but I don't think the other one turned up any results. For the record, I only did a quick search on both, but the organization you posted was very quickly red flagged.
 
It is rather amusing to me that efforts to limit immigration in majority white countries are typically referred to as "racist", when most of the non-West is far more limiting in immigration yet isn't called racist for using the same logic. Given that double standard, I find the "bigotry" accusations hollow.
 
It is rather amusing to me that efforts to limit immigration in majority white countries are typically referred to as "racist", when most of the non-West is far more limiting in immigration yet isn't called racist for using the same logic. Given that double standard, I find the "bigotry" accusations hollow.

So its not really illegal immigrants that is the problem, but non-white immigrants in general. Gotcha.
 
Wait, let me get this straight. So same company. No changes. They hire illegal labor and the quality of work goes down. They hire American citizens and the quality of work goes up? Is that what you are really trying to sell here? You don't see the problem with that? Please explain why the quality of labor goes down with "illegal immigrants" when these dame people worked hard in their original countries, and felt the need to escape from that country. Please explain why they would not work as hard as they can to show their "value" and hopefully stay, but instead, work lazily and unsafe. That makes no sense at all. You are reaching at this point.

As for my sources. I literally posted them to show you that illegal immigrant DO pay taxes. Here is what I did to find those sources. I went to Google. I typed in "Do illegal immigrants pay taxes?" and then PRESTO! Many search results come back and show that they do. That is literally all you needed to take from them. They DO pay taxes, but they don't benefit from it.

Your entire point about cost of illegal immigrants is irrelevant to this topic anyway. Again, I can go on and on about how the South is a drain on federal resources, but why bother? It is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Now you are going around talking about "racist" countries. Stay on topic. Reread my first paragraph in this reply. That is relevant to the entire topic. You are blaming illegal labor for the issue, when it really is the company that is at fault. They cut corners and exploit people, illegal and legal.
 
So its not really illegal immigrants that is the problem, but non-white immigrants in general. Gotcha.
I didn't say I took the same position as either of the guys you cited. I just dispute the characterization of their views by your sources. My personal stance is that immigration here would be best structured if it matched the mostly skill based immigration policy that Australia has.
 
And doesn't change the fact that John Tanton is racist and anti-immigrant.

https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/factsheet-john-tanton/
The part of Tanton's perspective that I agree with is his focus on cultural differences. If a society has a wide range of cultural values among its general population, that just leads to conflict and a lack of consensus regarding societal priorities. Where I disagree with him is that he was too focused on race. Culture is what matters, not race.
 
Wait, let me get this straight. So same company. No changes. They hire illegal labor and the quality of work goes down. They hire American citizens and the quality of work goes up? Is that what you are really trying to sell here? You don't see the problem with that? Please explain why the quality of labor goes down with "illegal immigrants" when these dame people worked hard in their original countries, and felt the need to escape from that country. Please explain why they would not work as hard as they can to show their "value" and hopefully stay, but instead, work lazily and unsafe. That makes no sense at all. You are reaching at this point.

That is one hell of a strawman, but I guess I should expect it by now. What I'm actually saying is that illegal labor is usually less qualified than legal labor and the transparency issue I referenced is with regard to oversight concerning things like labor conditions and general practices.

That being said, working hard is less important than the quality of work. Plenty of people work hard but still do shoddy work. Plenty of citizens fit that description as well, to be fair. I'm not necessarily saying the majority are lazy or unsafe. I'm just saying unskilled labor isn't high quality even when it's legal, so if you're paying illegals even less than you would pay legal workers, I find it hard to believe they would somehow be equal in quality or better.

As for my sources. I literally posted them to show you that illegal immigrant DO pay taxes. Here is what I did to find those sources. I went to Google. I typed in "Do illegal immigrants pay taxes?" and then PRESTO! Many search results come back and show that they do. That is literally all you needed to take from them. They DO pay taxes, but they don't benefit from it.

I already mentioned how they do benefit from it if they bring their families, so I'll elaborate. When they bring children, those children typically are enrolled in our schools. Due to language barriers, this requires additional spending on ESL education typically. The schooling itself is a benefit, but the ESL instruction is an additional benefit. Also, they are typically part of things like subsidized school lunch programs. These are just a few of the benefits they get.

In the last few years, we've also spent billions on housing many illegals. Some cities put them in hotels and paid for their "rent", so to speak.

Your entire point about cost of illegal immigrants is irrelevant to this topic anyway. Again, I can go on and on about how the South is a drain on federal resources, but why bother? It is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Now you are going around talking about "racist" countries. Stay on topic. Reread my first paragraph in this reply. That is relevant to the entire topic. You are blaming illegal labor for the issue, when it really is the company that is at fault. They cut corners and exploit people, illegal and legal.

Companies do indeed cut corners and exploit people, but the cutting of corners is often done by those they hire illegally. And if the exploitation of people is really your concern, then logically, you should understand how illegal labor fits into the premise of the OP. Exploitation leads to risky practices in production.
 
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I didn't say I took the same position as either of the guys you cited. I just dispute the characterization of their views by your sources.
While I'm glad to hear this, I have to ask which characterizations you dispute, because it seems like a lot of those characterizations are fairly well documented.
 
The part of Tanton's perspective that I agree with is his focus on cultural differences. If a society has a wide range of cultural values among its general population, that just leads to conflict and a lack of consensus regarding societal priorities. Where I disagree with him is that he was too focused on race. Culture is what matters, not race.
Yes, it can lead to conflict, but conflict isn't always a bad thing. It's important that social norms and priorities are tested, particular with fresh eyes, as not doing so simply results in an echo chamber of self-congratulatory bullshit, and unwillingness to adapt.
 
Companies do indeed cut corners and exploit people, but the cutting of corners is often done by those they hire illegally.

I'm sorry, but once again, I'm calling bullshit. Illegals rarely if ever are hired and put in positions which affect the large decisions and policies that the companies make. The instances of businesses doing this are many and easy to find. The BP oil spill, as an example. I'm not saying that it's impossible or has never happened, but any corner cutting by illegals would likely be at the bottom of the chain, not the ones setting policy. I have to ask if you have any sources for this claim, preferably not ones from anti-immigrant thinktanks.
 
Yes, it can lead to conflict, but conflict isn't always a bad thing. It's important that social norms and priorities are tested, particular with fresh eyes, as not doing so simply results in an echo chamber of self-congratulatory bullshit, and unwillingness to adapt.
In the context of democratic governance, the only real testing that happens is with regard to a combination of the numbers game and wealth. If a high enough amount of people enter a country with opposing values, their values will become dominant over time. By the same token, monied interests can also push certain social changes on the public if they are marketed cleverly (and deceptively) enough. A third factor is whichever culture is predominant in a nation's institutions, particularly academia and media. Granted, this factor typically has a money connection as well.

In short, the "marketplace of ideas" concept is a myth in terms of developing the strongest ideas. All it really accomplishes is the promotion of the best marketed ideas, with typically an emphasis on appealing to people's emotions rather than their logic. Most people are more emotional than logical or intellectual.

A lot of the basis for liberalism (liberal in the context of Western culture, not the term as is often conflated with the left or progressivism) has been shown to be naive and inaccurate when assessing human nature. Classical liberalism assumes the natural state of man is the individual, when in fact, humans are much more social in nature and tend to be conformist and tribal even in individualistic societies. America has weathered multiculturalism better than much of Europe, although that probably has less to do with our system and more to do with the smaller differences in values between native-born Americans vs. people from Latin America as compared with the differences in values between native Europeans vs. various Muslim groups.
 
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