Almost 10 Million lbs of chicken & beef recalled from Aldi, Trader Joe’s, HEB, Walmart, etc.

[Morning Scifi]

I'm sorry, but once again, I'm calling bullshit. Illegals rarely if ever are hired and put in positions which affect the large decisions and policies that the companies make. The instances of businesses doing this are many and easy to find. The BP oil spill, as an example. I'm not saying that it's impossible or has never happened, but any corner cutting by illegals would likely be at the bottom of the chain, not the ones setting policy. I have to ask if you have any sources for this claim, preferably not ones from anti-immigrant thinktanks.

I wasn't thinking of things like large scale disasters. I was thinking more in terms of what has been shown in the construction industry. The overall quality of new construction in the US has substantially fallen, particularly for residential construction in many areas precisely because of a heavy dependence on illegal labor. A lot of trades are being learned "on the job" by illegals (and some citizens, to be fair) due to shortages of tradespeople here. That "on the job" approach leads to mistakes and corner cutting. I'm not saying this is purely the fault of illegals, but they certainly play a part. Encouraging more young people to enter the trades would help a lot, although sometimes it is a hard sell due to wage depression in some trades that is caused by illegal labor.

 

[Morning Scifi]

While I'm glad to hear this, I have to ask which characterizations you dispute, because it seems like a lot of those characterizations are fairly well documented.

To use your excerpt as an example, I wouldn't consider Tanton's observation about corruption with regard to Latinos as racist overall. If we look at Mexico, for example, cartels wield a lot of influence there, and we know they are an issue in parts of the US currently. This doesn't mean that all Latinos are connected to cartels or even that the average Latino is, but the more open an immigration policy is with regard to Mexicans, the more risk there is for letting cartel members enter and establish themselves. Even his observation about birth rates is correct, albeit I can agree that the tone of his observation regarding this was racist.

As for the white nationalist characterization, maybe a clearer way to express what I meant is that I don't view this label in the same light that the SPLC and many others do. Black nationalism is fairly common in this country, yet few people who subscribe to it are called out for it. Nick Cannon didn't get called for it until he started making remarks about Jews, for example. He had said a lot of negative things about whites before that without issue. The way I see it, I don't fault any individual for preferring their own group over others, since that's a natural tendency for all cultures. White liberals are one of the only groups with an outgroup bias, for example. Pretty much all other groups have a significant ingroup bias. So, I don't find white nationalism any more objectionable than I do black nationalism. I don't personally subscribe to either one, since I prefer a more culturally based form of nationalism. I suppose you could say I prefer Christian nationalism, although I mean that in terms of values, not an actual theocracy.

 

[VegLife]

I have finished skimming

What i read

Scenario 1- Deregulation is the problem in the meat industry: backed by evidence open to the public (Actual events are the potential cause✅)

Scenario 2- Migrants are more likely to be felons therefore more likely to be dishonest and unethical workers therefore more likey to be bad at their job causing more recalls: backed by the concept of stacking dominoes and watching them fall over( literal spitballing ideas that make sense to you while disregarding an obvious bias to determine the cause✅)

Gotcha, now i will irresponsibly not respond to anything else after dropping this, goodnight

 

[primetime]

Wow. Just wow. I am curious Morning Scifi, where do you come up with your theories? Did you honestly say illegal labor is less qualifed than legal labor? How? Why is it? What is the difference in people who came here illegally and the ones that are legal? So the folks who traveled hundreds to thousands of miles to escape some chaos in their home country, risk their very lives, are going to have bad work ethic and shoddy quality of work? They would do anything to make it here and then won't work extra hard or try to perform well, so that they are not fired and returned back home because they can't find work? Really? You actually believe that?

I am not even going to address your other rabbit hole items, like when you talk about "black nationalism", because they are irrelevant to the topic. The issue has and will always be the corporation's fault. Let's say you are right. These people who risked their very lives to make it here, don't have good quality of work. Let's just say that is true (it is not, but for the sake of an example), isn't it incumbent on the company to get rid of them? Do they really want to put out shoddy work? Don't they want their products to be of quality? The answer should be yes.

Again, it will always start and end with the company. They are at fault. They are the culprits who only look at cutting corners to pad their pockets instead of making sure their product is of great quality. Hiring "legal" labor won't improve that because it is still the same working conditions.

 

[Morning Scifi]

I have finished skimming

What i read

Scenario 1- Deregulation is the problem in the meat industry: backed by evidence open to the public (Actual events are the potential cause✅)

Scenario 2- Migrants are more likely to be felons therefore more likely to be dishonest and unethical workers therefore more likey to be bad at their job causing more recalls: backed by the concept of stacking dominoes and watching them fall over( literal spitballing ideas that make sense to you while disregarding an obvious bias to determine the cause✅)

Gotcha, now i will irresponsibly not respond to anything else after dropping this, goodnight

Sounds like a reading comprehension problem on your part....

 

[Morning Scifi]

Wow. Just wow. I am curious Morning Scifi, where do you come up with your theories? Did you honestly say illegal labor is less qualifed than legal labor? How? Why is it? What is the difference in people who came here illegally and the ones that are legal? So the folks who traveled hundreds to thousands of miles to escape some chaos in their home country, risk their very lives, are going to have bad work ethic and shoddy quality of work? They would do anything to make it here and then won't work extra hard or try to perform well, so that they are not fired and returned back home because they can't find work? Really? You actually believe that?

I am not even going to address your other rabbit hole items, like when you talk about "black nationalism", because they are irrelevant to the topic. The issue has and will always be the corporation's fault. Let's say you are right. These people who risked their very lives to make it here, don't have good quality of work. Let's just say that is true (it is not, but for the sake of an example), isn't it incumbent on the company to get rid of them? Do they really want to put out shoddy work? Don't they want their products to be of quality? The answer should be yes.

Again, it will always start and end with the company. They are at fault. They are the culprits who only look at cutting corners to pad their pockets instead of making sure their product is of great quality. Hiring "legal" labor won't improve that because it is still the same working conditions.

If you're saying that illegal labor is equally as qualified as legal labor, then why not get your dental work or medical work done by unlicensed doctors or dentists? It would certainly be cheaper than using licensed ones. Shoddy work isn't always a matter of intention. It's often a lack of skill.

I've already explained how and why people travel that distance to come here, but I'll elaborate further. A large portion of it is the result of NGOs funding it and providing the resources for it. The motivation of the individuals varies, but a lot of people come to our border due to false promises they're given by these NGOs. A lot of people actually end up going back after they find out it's not the utopia they were sold on.

I'm not absolving corporations of fault, but I'm also not going to pretend that quality of work isn't an issue specifically with regard to migrants.

Legal labor improves things to the extent that better pay usually results in better quality work.

 

[primetime]

You really have not sat down and thought out your logic have you? A few flaws with your theory....

You asking if I should get dental or medical work done by unlicensed doctors and dentists is a terrible analogy. Why? Because i didn't realize farmwork or construction work required a college degree and years of schooling to perfect. We are talking about migrants working in factories and farms. That is manual labor. Not a specialized line of work. Do better next time.

Second, let's break this down to pieces that even your biased views can see the light. First, how do you know they produce shoddy work? Again, we are talking about working in the fields and in factories. Manual labor. Did these same migrants produce shoddy work in their home countries? If they worked in the fields in their home country, what is the difference in working in a field in the United States? If anything, they have a lot more experience than a native born person. I mean, what is the difference in quality of work between an "illegal" and "legal" person in those industries. Seriously, can you explain how you even came up with your horrific theory that these people do shoddy work in a manual labor line of work. How does someone who was born and raised in the US a "better worker" than someone from another country in the field of picking fruit?

I find it hilarious that you stated that legal labor improves things to the extent that better pay usually results in better quality work. Ah ha!!! You just made my point. The COMPANIES are the ones who determine pay or not. So if these migrants are being paid less, and the "legal" people are not, whose fault is that? The company. Like i have been telling you ad nauseum, at the end of the day, ALL OF THE BLAME GOES TO THESE COMPANIES. They are the ones willing to have shoddy work go out. They are the ones who are not paying better. They are the ones hiring so called "inferior" workers. The are cutting corners because they are greedy. yet, you are focused on people who got exploited. Why?

 

[Morning Scifi]

You really have not sat down and thought out your logic have you? A few flaws with your theory....

You asking if I should get dental or medical work done by unlicensed doctors and dentists is a terrible analogy. Why? Because i didn't realize farmwork or construction work required a college degree and years of schooling to perfect. We are talking about migrants working in factories and farms. That is manual labor. Not a specialized line of work. Do better next time.

Second, let's break this down to pieces that even your biased views can see the light. First, how do you know they produce shoddy work? Again, we are talking about working in the fields and in factories. Manual labor. Did these same migrants produce shoddy work in their home countries? If they worked in the fields in their home country, what is the difference in working in a field in the United States? If anything, they have a lot more experience than a native born person. I mean, what is the difference in quality of work between an "illegal" and "legal" person in those industries. Seriously, can you explain how you even came up with your horrific theory that these people do shoddy work in a manual labor line of work. How does someone who was born and raised in the US a "better worker" than someone from another country in the field of picking fruit?

I find it hilarious that you stated that legal labor improves things to the extent that better pay usually results in better quality work. Ah ha!!! You just made my point. The COMPANIES are the ones who determine pay or not. So if these migrants are being paid less, and the "legal" people are not, whose fault is that? The company. Like i have been telling you ad nauseum, at the end of the day, ALL OF THE BLAME GOES TO THESE COMPANIES. They are the ones willing to have shoddy work go out. They are the ones who are not paying better. They are the ones hiring so called "inferior" workers. The are cutting corners because they are greedy. yet, you are focused on people who got exploited. Why?

Construction work definitely takes years of experience to get good at. Farmwork is less that way, but there are still elements of skill and knowledge involved.

If you want to add the context of quality of work in their home country to the equation, there are many farming practices allowed in Mexico that are not allowed here. For example, chinampas still exist there, which sometimes involve the use of night soil (which contains human feces among other things). Night soil isn't allowed in US farming due to the obvious biological risks involved. I'm not saying anyone uses night soil here, but if you come from a culture that finds this acceptable, the perception of the risk might be a bit different, to put it mildly.

Still, if the argument is that an illegal laborer is on equal terms with a legal one, why have any immigration restrictions at all? Why not just let companies hire anyone that shows up and allow completely free movement in and out of the country? If someone is willing to work for a lot cheaper and somehow provides equal quality work, then maybe the problem is that Americans are overpaid, right?

 

[Cosmo_ac]

In the context of democratic governance, the only real testing that happens is with regard to a combination of the numbers game and wealth. If a high enough amount of people enter a country with opposing values, their values will become dominant over time. By the same token, monied interests can also push certain social changes on the public if they are marketed cleverly (and deceptively) enough. A third factor is whichever culture is predominant in a nation's institutions, particularly academia and media. Granted, this factor typically has a money connection as well.

In short, the "marketplace of ideas" concept is a myth in terms of developing the strongest ideas. All it really accomplishes is the promotion of the best marketed ideas, with typically an emphasis on appealing to people's emotions rather than their logic. Most people are more emotional than logical or intellectual.

A lot of the basis for liberalism (liberal in the context of Western culture, not the term as is often conflated with the left or progressivism) has been shown to be naive and inaccurate when assessing human nature. Classical liberalism assumes the natural state of man is the individual, when in fact, humans are much more social in nature and tend to be conformist and tribal even in individualistic societies. America has weathered multiculturalism better than much of Europe, although that probably has less to do with our system and more to do with the smaller differences in values between native-born Americans vs. people from Latin America as compared with the differences in values between native Europeans vs. various Muslim groups.

In general, I agree with the points you've made, however, I still believe that it is important for other cultures to mix as I believe it gives people a chance to see things from different perspectives and might make them question their own views instead of simple believing their views are right because they are the ones they hold. Almost all movements start small.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

I wasn't thinking of things like large scale disasters. I was thinking more in terms of what has been shown in the construction industry. The overall quality of new construction in the US has substantially fallen, particularly for residential construction in many areas precisely because of a heavy dependence on illegal labor. A lot of trades are being learned "on the job" by illegals (and some citizens, to be fair) due to shortages of tradespeople here. That "on the job" approach leads to mistakes and corner cutting. I'm not saying this is purely the fault of illegals, but they certainly play a part. Encouraging more young people to enter the trades would help a lot, although sometimes it is a hard sell due to wage depression in some trades that is caused by illegal labor.

If a trade is being learned "on the job", it is the choice of the employer, not the worker, as they know they hired somebody who lacks skill/experience. If mistakes and corner cutting is made, it is either because the person training the employed is either not doing their job right, or this was how they were taught, or the person who is inspecting their work is not doing their job. These cases ultimately fall unto the employer.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

To use your excerpt as an example, I wouldn't consider Tanton's observation about corruption with regard to Latinos as racist overall. If we look at Mexico, for example, cartels wield a lot of influence there, and we know they are an issue in parts of the US currently. This doesn't mean that all Latinos are connected to cartels or even that the average Latino is, but the more open an immigration policy is with regard to Mexicans, the more risk there is for letting cartel members enter and establish themselves. Even his observation about birth rates is correct, albeit I can agree that the tone of his observation regarding this was racist.

As for the white nationalist characterization, maybe a clearer way to express what I meant is that I don't view this label in the same light that the SPLC and many others do. Black nationalism is fairly common in this country, yet few people who subscribe to it are called out for it. Nick Cannon didn't get called for it until he started making remarks about Jews, for example. He had said a lot of negative things about whites before that without issue. The way I see it, I don't fault any individual for preferring their own group over others, since that's a natural tendency for all cultures. White liberals are one of the only groups with an outgroup bias, for example. Pretty much all other groups have a significant ingroup bias. So, I don't find white nationalism any more objectionable than I do black nationalism. I don't personally subscribe to either one, since I prefer a more culturally based form of nationalism. I suppose you could say I prefer Christian nationalism, although I mean that in terms of values, not an actual theocracy.

If you take the time to read the article, and connect the dots, ie things he has said, groups he has started/worked with, people he has had work for those groups, and people he surrounded himself with, the picture starts to be pretty clear the man was racist.

As for white nationalist/black nationalist, I agree with Prime in the sense that if you really want to get into that topic, we should probably start a thread in the politics forum, as that is a whole other rabbit hole.

 

[Morning Scifi]

If a trade is being learned "on the job", it is the choice of the employer, not the worker, as they know they hired somebody who lacks skill/experience. If mistakes and corner cutting is made, it is either because the person training the employed is either not doing their job right, or this was how they were taught, or the person who is inspecting their work is not doing their job. These cases ultimately fall unto the employer.

The employer should take some of the blame, but so should workers. You and Prime seem to assume that workers have no agency.

 

[Morning Scifi]

If you take the time to read the article, and connect the dots, ie things he has said, groups he has started/worked with, people he has had work for those groups, and people he surrounded himself with, the picture starts to be pretty clear the man was racist.

As for white nationalist/black nationalist, I agree with Prime in the sense that if you really want to get into that topic, we should probably start a thread in the politics forum, as that is a whole other rabbit hole.

There's a politics forum? I must have missed that, because I haven't found a section for that here.

 

[primetime]

Are you kidding me? You REALLY can't see what we are trying to point out. That tells me a lot.

You say construction work takes years of experience to get good at. Why are you assuming these migrants DO NOT HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE? For real. Why do you think that. How do you know they are not as skilled or even more so than "legal" citizens? You act like they are coming out of the jungle and have seen civilization for the very first time. You have some explaining to do.

That is the problem with your entire stance. You act like these people are primitive. Like they never worked before in their lives. That is a terrible assumption to make and speaks a lot about what your mindset is. You are grasping for straws with that top soil example you gave. What does that have to do with ANYTHING here in the US? Come on, do better.

Like several people have pointed out to you, the end result is that is is the companies that are at fault. They hire people. They let the product go out. They are responsible for what is out on the market. If they want to cut corners, is it really the fault of the worker, legal or illegal? NOPE. If they are hiring inexperienced people, is that the fault of the worker, illegal or legal? NOPE. Are you really having this much trouble with this? You are placing the blame on people who you ASSUME are inferior workers ONLY because they came her illegally. No basis. No evidence. Just your own extremely biased thought process. Can humans make mistakes? Of course. But that has ZERO to do with someone's legal status or not. You make these broad claims yet have zero evidence to back it up.

I worked with illegal aliens before. These folks worked harder than any other "legal" person. Their work ethic was very strong. They want to stay here. They are not going to mess around. These companies know it and they do not want to pay American workers. It is not that they are overpaid, it is simply the companies are greedy. Flat out.

 

[Morning Scifi]

Are you kidding me? You REALLY can't see what we are trying to point out. That tells me a lot.

You say construction work takes years of experience to get good at. Why are you assuming these migrants DO NOT HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE? For real. Why do you think that. How do you know they are not as skilled or even more so than "legal" citizens? You act like they are coming out of the jungle and have seen civilization for the very first time. You have some explaining to do.

You really enjoy strawmen arguments, don't you? The reason I mention this skill issue is because it's shown by various media, and I've known multiple people in the industry who've mentioned it. There are several inspectors on social media who point out the issues with migrant labor in their local communities. Arizona and Texas in particular seem to have a widespread problem with this, and it shows in the quality of construction and things like trash being left behind as well. There are even situations where the migrants urinate on the site. One particular inspector refers to a particular community in Queen Creek, AZ as the "pee community" because of what he's seen at some of these sites when he does pre-drywall inspections. To be fair, I don't assume that only migrants do this kind of thing. I'm sure some citizens are guilty of this as well.

That is the problem with your entire stance. You act like these people are primitive. Like they never worked before in their lives. That is a terrible assumption to make and speaks a lot about what your mindset is. You are grasping for straws with that top soil example you gave. What does that have to do with ANYTHING here in the US? Come on, do better.

Some people are primitive. Some native born Americans are primitive even. But primitive doesn't have to mean a tribesperson emerging from the jungle. It can be as simple as trailer/ghetto/barrio trash. It's all indicated by values and behavior more than genetics.

Like several people have pointed out to you, the end result is that is is the companies that are at fault. They hire people. They let the product go out. They are responsible for what is out on the market. If they want to cut corners, is it really the fault of the worker, legal or illegal? NOPE. If they are hiring inexperienced people, is that the fault of the worker, illegal or legal? NOPE. Are you really having this much trouble with this? You are placing the blame on people who you ASSUME are inferior workers ONLY because they came her illegally. No basis. No evidence. Just your own extremely biased thought process. Can humans make mistakes? Of course. But that has ZERO to do with someone's legal status or not. You make these broad claims yet have zero evidence to back it up.

And again, you pretend that laborers can't be held responsible for their own actions. I've never suggested that companies shouldn't be. I'm only saying that workers should be held accountable as well.

I worked with illegal aliens before. These folks worked harder than any other "legal" person. Their work ethic was very strong. They want to stay here. They are not going to mess around. These companies know it and they do not want to pay American workers. It is not that they are overpaid, it is simply the companies are greedy. Flat out.

So, again, if we are to assume that all illegals are harder workers than legal ones and also are willing to work for less money, how exactly would you expect a company to pay more for a legal worker or for a company to willingly pay an illegal the same wage as a legal worker? Following your logic, it sounds like we might as well replace the legal workers entirely with illegals. You call it greedy, but companies pay whatever the market will bear. Wages aren't charity, and businesses aren't either.

So, this greed issue you claim is a direct result of easy access to cheap labor that is often illegal. Even legal labor that is foreign is usually cheaper than "native" labor, as we currently see with the recent discussion about H1-B visas. So if "greed" really is the issue, then it sounds like we should have fewer work visas and a more secure border along with a lot of deportations.

Otherwise, if we go with the first part of your argument, illegals (and foreign labor in general) are just a better bargain for labor than citizens. In short, make up your mind. Is greed the issue, or is lack of quality among native labor?

 

[primetime]

Dude, this is getting sad now. You seriously cannot make broad assumptions about "foreigners". Did you seriously just write that about them? Wow, if you could seriously understand what you are showing us, you would potentially understand why you would receive a certain label. I think you are getting lost of your own argument versus mine.

What strawman argument? You literally have zero proof. ZERO. You are making some broad assumptions about people. This is not hard. For real. This is not hard. Follow the logic. Simple logic.

Here's a recap of what this debate is about. Food is recalled. You come in and blame illegal labor. I have said repeatedly that this is the fault of the companies, not the workers. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in human labor between "illegal" and "legal". You would literally get the same "results" even if the entire labor force is "legal". You keep saying that workers should be held accountable which is obvious, but YOU are making it be a difference between certain groups of people. So, I will ask the following questions and you answer them. Ok?

Why do companies hire illegal labor?

Why do companies allow people with "bad work ethics" to produce their products and put it out in the market?

Would illegal labor be a problem if companies didn't hire them?

Why do you believe that "legal" labor is superior to "foreign labor" without sounding, um, "biased against those not from the country while wearing a certain color hat"?

Do you even know what my point is? (Your last two paragraphs show me you don't.)

Your goal is to badmouth people not native to the US. Period. Full stop. Myself (and others) blame the companies that hire them. They are the ones who allow bad craftmanship. They are the ones who cut corners. The last two paragraphs of your last post shows me you have no idea what my point is. Seriously. You literally just made my entire argument. So, me being the kind person that I am, go back and truly read what you wrote. You will see you no longer know what the debate is between you and everyone else.

 

[kurchatovium]

This thread is certainly political What's the point of a politics forum if no one puts political stuff in it,

 

[Cosmo_ac]

The employer should take some of the blame, but so should workers. You and Prime seem to assume that workers have no agency.

The workers, if they are illegal, will certainly take blame, in the sense they will likely be arrested if it is found out they are illegal by the police.

When they come to a new country, illegals have three choices (assuming they aren't basically made into indentured slaves, as this sometimes happens to them when they come to a new country), and that is to seek employment, engage in crime, or become dependent on others. Now, if they choose to work, and are taught the right way to do a job, but cut corners or compromise safety to make a profit, then they should be prosecuted for their crimes. However, if they are taught the wrong ways, or are instructed to cut corners, deserve considerably less blame than those hiring/training them.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

There's a politics forum? I must have missed that, because I haven't found a section for that here.

There is. You might have to ask Jeff or Myriads to open access to you.

 

[kurchatovium]

There is. You might have to ask Jeff or Myriads to open access to you.

I dont wnnt access to it. I want general discussion to be general discussion. I am tired of arguing politivs. I want threads to go where they belong.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

I dont wnnt access to it. I want general discussion to be general discussion. I am tired of arguing politivs. I want threads to go where they belong.

I mean, if you don't want to argue politics, and see a thread that is turning political, you can just not read it. If you're not engaging with the thread, I don't see how it really affects you. That said, if the mods want to move this thread to politics, that's fine with me too.

 

[kurchatovium]

I mean, if you don't want to argue politics, and see a thread that is turning political, you can just not read it. If you're not engaging with the thread, I don't see how it really affects you. That said, if the mods want to move this thread to politics, that's fine with me too.

That's what I am looking for. Putting the political stuff in P and R. Seems more politics has creeped into General discussion. If the mods are OK with that then I guess I am as well. Was just nicer before I think but I can deal with it. Happy New Year to you. 😀

 

[Morning Scifi]

Dude, this is getting sad now. You seriously cannot make broad assumptions about "foreigners". Did you seriously just write that about them? Wow, if you could seriously understand what you are showing us, you would potentially understand why you would receive a certain label. I think you are getting lost of your own argument versus mine.

What strawman argument? You literally have zero proof. ZERO. You are making some broad assumptions about people. This is not hard. For real. This is not hard. Follow the logic. Simple logic.

Here's a recap of what this debate is about. Food is recalled. You come in and blame illegal labor. I have said repeatedly that this is the fault of the companies, not the workers. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in human labor between "illegal" and "legal". You would literally get the same "results" even if the entire labor force is "legal". You keep saying that workers should be held accountable which is obvious, but YOU are making it be a difference between certain groups of people. So, I will ask the following questions and you answer them. Ok?

Why do companies hire illegal labor?

It's cheaper.

Why do companies allow people with "bad work ethics" to produce their products and put it out in the market?

A combination of reasons. It's not always intentional, but it ultimately comes down to poor management of labor and poor selection of labor.

Would illegal labor be a problem if companies didn't hire them?

Of course not, but foreign legal labor can also be a problem as I mentioned earlier. Whether legal or illegal, foreign labor that is cheaper tends to be lower quality.

Why do you believe that "legal" labor is superior to "foreign labor" without sounding, um, "biased against those not from the country while wearing a certain color hat"?

A good example of why foreign labor is often a problem (and why it's cheaper) is what happened recently with Boeing. People tried to blame it on DEI policies hiring under-qualified people, but what actually happened is that Boeing outsourced a lot of their engineering to India and China. Many of their engineers aren't as good as our engineers. So foreign labor can be a problem whether the people are brought here or if the jobs are outsourced.

We have a similar problem when customer service or IT is outsourced.

Do you even know what my point is? (Your last two paragraphs show me you don't.)

Your goal is to badmouth people not native to the US. Period. Full stop. Myself (and others) blame the companies that hire them. They are the ones who allow bad craftmanship. They are the ones who cut corners. The last two paragraphs of your last post shows me you have no idea what my point is. Seriously. You literally just made my entire argument. So, me being the kind person that I am, go back and truly read what you wrote. You will see you no longer know what the debate is between you and everyone else.

My goal was to point out how foreign labor can be a problem for various industries and how companies cheap out. We seem to agree that companies should have some of the blame, but you seem incapable of realizing why foreign labor itself can cause problems.

 

[Morning Scifi]

The workers, if they are illegal, will certainly take blame, in the sense they will likely be arrested if it is found out they are illegal by the police.

When they come to a new country, illegals have three choices (assuming they aren't basically made into indentured slaves, as this sometimes happens to them when they come to a new country), and that is to seek employment, engage in crime, or become dependent on others. Now, if they choose to work, and are taught the right way to do a job, but cut corners or compromise safety to make a profit, then they should be prosecuted for their crimes. However, if they are taught the wrong ways, or are instructed to cut corners, deserve considerably less blame than those hiring/training them.

I can actually agree with you on this. That being said, unfortunately, illegal labor is arrested far less often than it should be, just like employers of illegals are arrested far less often than they should be.

 

[Morning Scifi]

There is. You might have to ask Jeff or Myriads to open access to you.

If that's how it works, then I'll ask Jeff for access. My goal isn't to offend people like Kurchatovium. I understand the desire to avoid politics, but it does seem a bit odd when certain posters have political signatures in their posts already. I only created mine in response to someone else's.