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Americans Say Bush Should Wait

I must use the words of Jonah Goldberg, who states the case far more eloquently and flawlessly that I could hope to:

I can't remember where I read it or even who said it, but an old story keeps popping into my head. A former leftist-turned-conservative (from the old Partisan Review crowd, I think) encounters an unreconstructed lefty at a party. The lefty starts spouting all kinds of silliness about capitalist robber barons or American imperialism or some such. The conservative responds, "Your arguments are so old, I've forgotten the answer to them."

The debate over Iraq is cluttered with these kinds of arguments. You can't turn on a radio or see a TV debate on the issue without someone throwing around something you know is stupid, but you can't quite remember why. So I thought I'd start compiling a list. It's not exhaustive, but it's a start.

WE HELPED SADDAM IN THE 1980S/WE IGNORED HIS GASSING KURDS
The simple response to all arguments along these lines is: "So what?" Even if we were wrong to support Saddam (or the Taliban, etc.), does that mean we should stick to the wrong policy for consistency's sake? According to this view we should have turned a blind eye to the Holocaust because we'd turned a blind eye to the events that led up to the Holocaust. This is a byproduct of a culture which considers hypocrisy a greater crime than, well, real crimes. We've supported lots of bad characters in the past, for reasons which, in fairness, need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Al Qaeda, for example, may be some blowback from our support of the mujahedeen in the 1980s — but that doesn't mean we were wrong to support the mujahedeen. There was a Cold War going on, after all. And even if we were wrong, how does that excuse al Qaeda for 9/11? Blaming America first may feel good, but it hardly absolves the bad guys for their actions, any more than slavery justifies a black guy murdering a 7-Eleven clerk.

Even if you stipulate that we did wrong before, does that mean we shouldn't do right now? Antiwar types throw around these non-sequiturs as if the implied hypocrisy settles the current argument, when all it does is imply hypocrisy.

THE ARAB STREET WILL BE MAD AT US
Maybe Victor Davis Hanson knows the answer, but for the life of me I can't remember the last time the United States was so willing to let an unarmed mob of illiterate malcontents half a world away dictate American foreign policy. Well, when I say "when was the last time" that's a bit misleading, because we've been whining about the vaunted power of the "Arab street" for decades and to date the Arab street has done exactly nothing. There was a popular uprising in 1979 in Iran, but I don't hear much about the Persian street these days, except insofar as they're chanting "U.S.A.!"

After September 11, smart people in the Arab world — not counting all of the people in the Arab streets who ululated with glee at the deaths of so many Americans — worried very much about the American street. You know why? Because, unlike the denizens of the Arab street, American people can vote. American leaders actually care what their citizens think. And the American people, via their leaders, have access to the frickin' Arsenal of Democracy. Meanwhile, Arab leaders don't care what their citizens think and even if they did, there's not much they could do about it.

THIS WILL MAKE THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE SITUATION MORE DIFFICULT
Actually, it won't. But first, let's note that this is an argument about what is in Israel's interest, not necessarily ours. Indeed, if you believe that pro-Israel warmongers are forcing bloodshed in order to further Israel's interests, you can't then turn around and say we shouldn't go to war because it won't be in Israel's interests.

Regardless, if you are feeling nostalgic for the "Spirit of Oslo" you should at least remember that this spirit was conjured by America's victory in the Gulf War. The U.S. forced the two sides to the negotiating table. If Arafat hadn't decided to rule the Palestinian Authority as a garrison state (with the encouragement of Iran, Iraq, and Syria) for his war against Israel, it is entirely possible that the first Gulf War could have brought a lasting peace between the two sides. Again, go ask Victor Hanson, but you will discover that wars are often the shortest route to peace. Which brings us to…

WE HAVE TO SOLVE THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE PROBLEM FIRST
It has been the nigh-upon-universal consensus in "enlightened" European, Arab, and most American quarters that the top priority in the Middle East must be a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone from Kofi Annan to Bill Clinton to the entire Arab League has said that an invasion of Iraq should not even be considered until a solution to the Palestinian problem is achieved first. Some people, no doubt, sincerely believe this. But others, Saddam Hussein for example, subscribe to this view only because if a final settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a necessary precondition for any invasion of Iraq, Saddam can make sure that Iraq is never invaded.

Say I told you that you could keep your lucrative job so long as the Hatfields and McCoys continued their feud, but that the moment that feud was over you could lose your job, go to jail, or be executed. Don't you think you might leave a few burning bags of dog poop on the McCoys’ doorstep with a forged note from the Hatfields? Don't you think you might keep whispering in the Hatfields' ears that the McCoys put laxative in your apple brown betty? In other words, wouldn't you have a keen interest in keeping the Hatfield-McCoy feud going as long as possible?

Saddam bumped up the murder bonus for suicide bombers precisely for these reasons. Other Middle East states fund Hezbollah and Hamas for similar reasons, as countless experts have noted. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a means for Arab leaders to focus attention away from their own governments. Iraq foments trouble in Israel to keep the U.S. from toppling its government. But Iran and even Egypt foment trouble with Israel in order to keep their own "streets" from toppling their own governments.

WE HAVE NO RIGHT WITHOUT U.N. APPROVAL
One is tempted to explain the very concept of "sovereign" in "sovereign state," but since those who use this argument are already deeply antagonistic to the idea that America has any right to do anything on its own, let's just skip right past that. Instead, let's go to the moral heart of the matter. People who think we must go through the U.N. seem to believe that the U.N. is an objectively neutral or moral institution. In their eyes, getting approval from the U.N. is like getting approval from a judge or a priest. Or, they think the U.N. is where the nations of the world put aside their petty self-interest and do whatever is in the best interests of humanity.

There's only one problem with this. None of the nations in the U.N. — especially the permanent members of the Security Council — are acting on such pure motives. France isn't opposed to invading Iraq out of an abiding love of peace. It's opposed to an American invasion largely because France has been trading with Iraq for years, despite the sanctions. France has billions of dollars in oil contracts it doesn't want to lose. Which is why, according to numerous accounts, the French have made it known that if they can keep their existing contracts, they will probably approve a U.S. invasion.

Or, consider Russia. Russia's foot-dragging is also largely about oil — and securing the $8 billion Iraq already owes them. But Russia also wants the U.S. to turn a blind eye to its military abuses in Chechnya and Georgia. And, by the way, a precondition for China's vote is tacit American approval of a Chinese crackdown on separatist Muslim Uighurs. Now, how is it that an American invasion of Iraq is somehow morally superior with U.N. approval if that approval can only be bought by American support for bloodshed elsewhere? Altruism and charity aren't the coin of the realm on the Security Council; blood and oil are. As the editors of National Review put it in the latest issue: "We will leave it to the shrinks to determine why American liberals consider it a mark of morality in foreign policy when that policy coincides with Russian and French strategies that are themselves arrived at for the crassest of reasons. In general, making 'international opinion' the benchmark for right and wrong is a mistake, since so much of it is driven by fear, self-interest, and greed." And speaking of greed…

NO BLOOD FOR OIL/DOING IT FOR GREED
This was all the rage when I was in college during the first Gulf War and it hasn't gotten any better with age. The basic argument goes like this: Bush and Cheney are oil guys. They want to get their grubby hands on Iraq's oil. Ergo, this is a war for oil. I guess it could be stated with more sophistication, but why go to all the trouble of putting a dress on a pig?

As Peter Beinart of The New Republic notes in his latest — and excellent — column (registration required), war is not the best means to get at Iraq's oil. If all we wanted was a bigger slice of the Iraqi petro-pie, all we'd have to do, literally, is say so. Dick Cheney could negotiate that with Saddam over Turkish coffee and a few tortured lackeys tomorrow. Saddam has made it known that he'd be perfectly willing to sell a lot more oil to the United States, and that he'd certainly write up some fresh contracts if the U.S. would drop its sanctions and forget about this "regime change" nonsense.

Going to war just to boost Iraq's oil production from three or so million barrels a day to 6 or so million barrels a day involves massive risks, both political and financial. A war on Iraq could ruin Iraq's oil fields. It could foment instability in the region or a civil war inside Iraq. It could easily cost the Republicans the White House if it went badly. In short, if this were all about oil, any good businessman would simply say, "Let's just lift the sanctions." And, as Beinart notes, if all Bush wants is oil, why is the U.S. making assurances to the French and Russians that they can keep their existing contracts if they approve an invasion?

In fact, if Bush and Cheney are doing the bidding of the oil industry, someone needs to explain why the American Petroleum Institute lobbied for the lifting of sanctions prior to the 9/11 attacks. Also, you might ask why oil prices go up when war becomes more likely, and go down when the prospects for peace improve.

But, in my mind, the most compelling response to the blood-for-oil argument is a simple one. The people who make it are morons. Oh, I don't mean the folks who say that, as a geopolitical necessity, the U.S. must assure stability in oil markets, or those who (rightly) argue that we need to lessen the power and influence of the Saudis. I mean the people who argue — Cynthia McKinney-style — that Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld want to get rich off the war. This is the Carlyle Group argument you hear on Pacifica Radio and in the sweatier fever swamps of the web. The simple problem with this thesis is that it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of rich people.

Rich people who want to get richer do not run for president or vice president. They don't take jobs as secretary of defense or treasury secretary. And, for that matter, they don't run for senator — like John Edwards and Jon Corzine. Such people may have selfish motives, but greed for filthy lucre isn't one of them. They may like the power, they may want to do good, they may want their names in the history books, they may even want to prove something to the third-grade teachers who said they'd never amount to anything. But they don't do it to make a killing in the stock market. Every day, I hear from people who honestly think Bush & co. want to invade Iraq to make a few more bucks. These people are either stoopid or they are trapped in a Twilight Zone where Thomas Nast cartoons seem real.

Indeed, this is the problem with most goofy theories about a war: They reveal a profound naiveté about how government works. If Bush were doing this for oil or for money or for "revenge" against the man who tried to kill his dad, he wouldn't be able to say so in a single meeting. He couldn't say such a thing to his inner circle, let alone his senior staff or the hundreds of people below them who make the policy. Word would get out. Opponents would leak it. Ambitious men would blow the whistle and become heroes. Decent men would blow the whistle too.

In other words, Bush would have to keep all of his motives secret from the people he'd have to convince to go along. Now, since most of these anti-Bush, antiwar types also think the commander-in-chief is an idiot, it's hard to imagine how they think he'd be smart enough to pull off a con like that.

BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE OF THE POLLS/ELECTION
Aside from being offensive, aside from being hilarious coming out of the mouths of people who think Clinton's aspirin-factory bombing was an act of dispassionate statecraft, aside from the odd faith among people who think that putting the issue of war before the American people is somehow illegitimate in a democracy — the main problem with this argument is that it's ahistorical. Right now, according to most polls, Bush's ratings are the lowest they've been since September 11, even as he's intensified his war talk. This probably has more to do with the economy than with the war, but it does highlight the fact that not only were Bush's approval ratings higher before he started pressing regime change in Iraq, but that his public approval doesn't actually correspond positively with his movements toward war.

Also, again, you can't say "he's just doing this because it's popular!" without asking yourself why it's popular. Are Americans fools? And if so, why are they only fools when they support things liberals don't like? One of the basic ideas of a democracy is that elected leaders are supposed to do what's popular. I'm not in love with that aspect of democracy myself, but that's the case.

Besides, when was the last time you heard a liberal shut up after someone said, "He's just supporting Head Start because it's popular!"?

WAR WITH IRAQ WILL DISTRACT FROM WAR ON AL QAEDA
Ever since the al-Gore speech last week this has become the dominant Democratic argument against war (it is Paul Begala's only talking point on Crossfire, for example). The beauty and brilliance of this argument is that it allows Democrats to sound hawkish while embracing the larger dovish position. Indeed, that's why Gore actually used the word "avenge" when he said, "I don't think that we should allow anything to diminish our focus on avenging the 3,000 Americans who were murdered and dismantling the network of terrorists who we know to be responsible for it." I like vengeance as much as the next guy, if the next guy likes vengeance a whole lot, but generally vengeance is something enlightened liberal foreign-policy types pooh-pooh. Gore can get away with using the word because he's employing it to make an antiwar argument, and pretty much any argument is acceptable on the left if it's antiwar.

Anyway, this argument generally takes two forms. First, it is suggested that a war on Iraq would shatter the huge international coalition in the fight on terrorism. The second criticism is that it will drain our own resources in the war on terror.

The problem with the first point is that there's simply no evidence that this is so. As The New Republic noted in its scathing editorial on Gore's speech, Germany intensified its aid in the war on terror even as Gerhard Schroeder pulled his country completely out of the war on Iraq. There's no reason to think that the same dynamic wouldn't apply elsewhere. Taking America's side in a war is a very public act; cooperating with America's law and intelligence services is a very private affair. The ability to publicly snub America on Iraq while privately earning America's gratitude in the war on terror may seem like a boon to many world leaders. Pakistan's Musharaf would probably leap at the opportunity to denounce a war on a Muslim country — with a wink and a nod from the U.S. — while quietly rounding up members of al Qaeda and currying favor with America. Indeed, this is pretty much what Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Indonesia, Russia, and France have been doing for most of the last year — denouncing American belligerence toward Iraq while cooperating fully with the U.S. in the fight against al Qaeda.

Sure, if the U.S. went to war with Iraq, some nations might stop cooperating in the fight against al Qaeda. But you can't simply assert that this is so. Because the counter-argument is at least as compelling.

As for the second leg of the argument, I just don't get it. The war on terrorism/al Qaeda is not an intensively military war, at least outside Afghanistan. The numbers of military troops dedicated to the fight against al Qaeda inside Afghanistan is between four and five thousand. Roughly the same number of troops are spread out throughout the rest of the region, as well as in places like Yemen. The current military was built up on the assumption that the United States might have to wage and win two full-blown wars simultaneously, i.e., fight North Korea and Iraq at the same time. Now that the Taliban has been deposed, the war on terrorism doesn't use many tanks, aircraft carriers, artillery batteries, etc. The idea that a war against Iraq would drain the war on terrorism is simply not true if you're talking about materiel and troops.

Now, it is likely that a war on Iraq would divert some special forces and intelligence assets from Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf. Fair enough. But do we really want to make the argument that we cannot go to war because a few hundred men are stretched thin? We have an active-duty military of about 1.4 million people, and you're telling me they might as well stay in the barracks if a subgroup smaller than a softball league is busy? And if it's a matter of too few spy drones and cruise missiles, the answer is pretty simple: Buy more.

THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN AL QAEDA AND IRAQ
This is a similar argument to the above in that it once again uses al Qaeda as the cudgel to beat back any other conflict. The implication is that if Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 assault (still an "if," by the way) then attacking Iraq makes as much sense as attacking Belize. To the extent this is a sincere argument — it surely isn't most of the time — it represents a profound failure of the imagination.

When terrible things happen, politicians and pundits say things like "something like this must never happen again," and the rest of us nod a lot. After 9/11 the near-unanimous consensus was that America should do everything it could to prevent something similar from happening ever again. Now, if you believe that al Qaeda, and only al Qaeda, is capable of committing such a crime ever again, you are on safe intellectual ground. But no reasonable person actually believes this.

If a scorpion sneaks into your house and bites your child, you kill the scorpion. That's a no-brainer. But if you believe "something like this must never happen again" then you also go out in the yard and kill the other scorpions. You also kill rattlesnakes and black widow spiders, and maybe you even get a new alarm system and a child safety seat for your car. In other words, you do every reasonable thing you can. Imagine telling your wife, "Honey, I know there's that huge scorpion nest out in the yard, but I killed the scorpion responsible. Can you prove that the other scorpions had anything to do with the one that bit little Timmy?"

Right now the intelligence community is being raked over the coals for failing to "connect the dots" leading to September 11. Fair enough. Does anyone honestly believe that if Saddam Hussein orchestrated an attack on the US tomorrow or next year we wouldn't look back in retrospect and say, "Why didn't we connect the dots?" After all, Bill Clinton and Tom Daschle called for regime change in 1998. The dots are there. They do not constitute the only argument for toppling Saddam, but if you subscribe to the "this must never happen again" argument they should be enough. But speaking of those other arguments…

PRO-WAR TYPES ARE HYPOCRITICAL FOR NOT ADVOCATING THE "LIBERATION" OF CHINA
I have no idea how popular this one is outside the rarefied realm of my own e-mail box. But every day I hear from someone who says that because I believe toppling Saddam would be good for all sorts of reasons, I'm being a hypocrite or applying double standards because I don't want to do the same thing with China. Aside from being stupid, it's a fair point. As a purely moral matter, I would very much like to liberate China. The problem is that China has over a billion people, possesses nuclear weapons, and is not a foreseeable threat to the United States (despite what the guys at The Weekly Standard seem to think). The moral argument against China is strong, sure. The strategic and pragmatic argument for invading China is very, very, very, very weak.

The moral argument against Iraq is also very strong — but so are a bunch of other arguments. For example, unlike China, Iraq doesn't have nuclear weapons — yet. Indeed, one of the main reasons to go after Saddam is to keep him from getting nukes which would both make any U.S. intervention in the future next to impossible and make it possible for Saddam to blow up, hmm, let's say, Cleveland. Often, those who ask "Why Iraq?" — and not Iran or Syria or North Korea or China — are being intellectually dishonest, because they don't actually think any of those places should be attacked either. They see the world through a child's eyes, in the sense that they think it's wrong to punish one person if another person isn't being punished for doing the same things. Kids always use this logic: "It's not fair my friend Tommy cheated on the test and he's not being grounded!" But if this rule guided us in the real world, we wouldn't throw anybody in jail unless we could be sure all the criminals would be caught. Yes, it's in some sense unfair that China gets away with murder — literally — but Iraq doesn't. But no serious person would argue that Iraq should get away scot-free because China does. Ultimately, you do what you can, where you can.

In other words, it's a checklist, not an on/off switch. And in the end that's the response to all of these alleged silver-bullet antiwar arguments. No one argument is sufficient, pro or con. You need to look at a long list of criteria and make a decision. Some pro-war arguments are very strong, some less so. But you have to add them all up together and look at the final tally.
So: Is Iraq a brutal totalitarian regime? Check! Is it a proven threat to its neighbors? Check! Is it a proven threat to its own people? Check! Is it a proven threat to our allies? Check! Is it willing to export terrorism abroad? Check! Is it likely that if it got weapons of mass destruction, it would use them recklessly? Check! Is it working very hard to get weapons of mass destruction? Check! Would Saddam's people be better off without him? Check! Would we and our allies be better off without him? Check! Do we have the power and capabilities to get rid of him without paying too high a cost? Check! And, would getting rid of him make it less likely that another September 11 would "happen again"? Check.

This column originally appeared at http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg100102.asp and http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg100202.asp
 
MadKalnod, I disagree with some of the comments by Jonah Goldberg, but the article's very well written. It's good to see that there are still some thinking conservatives around. 🙂
 
Limbaugh is an IDIOT and so are his fans, any poll taken by him should be burned on principal.


So is it just Limbaugh/conservatives who you think should not take part in political debate, or would you include anyone who doesn't agree with you?
 
You'd be surprised how many thinking conservatives there are, amk714. I recommend having a look at more of Mr. Goldberg's work at National Review Online:
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg-archive.asp

I like him because he's a smart cookie, and he has a playful way of turning phrases that keeps the reader interested; rather than the dry, dusty stuff you get from George Will and Bill Buckley that sends you to sleep, or to the dictionary scratching your head. Besides, he's a fellow Sci-Fi Geek, and it's both a surprise and a relief to discover I'm not the only conservative Fanboy around. (In college, I actually had someone stare at me, sputtering with incomprehension, and say "But you can't be a Republican! You like Star Trek!") It's kind of like Odo on Deep Space Nine standing open-mouthed with awe upon seeing he people's homeworld for the first time and knowing he's not the last of his kind.

I'd also urge you to look at some of the other columnists at National Review Online, namely John Derbyshire. Victor Davis Hanson and Jay Nordlinger have some good ones now and agian as well.

You should also look at the writings of Larry Miller, who you probably know as a stand up comedian and actor, which appear every other week at The Weekly Standard. Admittedly, he's the only reason I have that site bookmarked.

And, of course, any good library bookstore should have some stuff by P.J. O'Rourke handy. I'd start off with Republican Party Reptile, Parliament of *****s, and Give War A Chance if I were in your position.

I must ask you, however, how you came to form the opinion that thinking conservatives were the anomaly? Is it based upon your personal experience interacting with conservatives? Or is that simply what you've been told independently from ever meeting conservatives? If it's the latter, then I feel, sadly, that you've fallen victim to a trend that makes political debate in this country so prone to bruised feelings.

It's been my experience that the conservatives I know take the position of "I am right on this matter and you are mistaken. These are the facts and evidence which support my belief, I think that they will convince you if you read them as well." Liberals, or at least the most impassioned ones that I've met, read and heard, seem to take the postion of "I am right and you are not just wrong, you are an evil, soulless abomination that lusts to drink the blood of innocent Democrat babies as you take food and medicine away from poor old people."

I think actor Dave Konig says it best:
I'm an actor. In New York. I'm also a Republican. For years I was in the closet about my political beliefs — a dark, scary closet filled with shame and back issues of Policy Review. To be a closet Republican in New York show business means spending a lot of time staring at your shoes, giggling nervously, and changing the subject. It means grinding your teeth, biting your lip, and holding your tongue — often simultaneously. It means never having to say you're sorry (because nobody knows you're a Republican).

New York City is a liberal town. But there's no liberals like Show-Business Liberals (like no liberals I know). Not just the obvious characters you see slapping on the old red ribbon and heading downtown to The Performer's Black Box Experimental Theater for a deconstructionist production of Waiting For Godot (Godot shows up and he's a lesbian) to benefit the Third Annual Free Mumia And Legalize Medicinal Crack Artists Collective. Those are the reasonable ones. I'm talking true believers, people who think the only thing wrong with Castro is he's a smoker.

It's not so much that they're intolerant of any political opinion that isn't in direct agreement with their own, it's that they literally can't conceive of such a thing. If you find yourself in a political discussion with a New York Show-Business Liberal and you should happen to voice an opinion contrary to theirs (just for fun, try this one; "Gee, maybe we should drill for oil in Alaska, I hear they got a lot of oil up there") — look out. They'll sputter and shake in spasms of outraged incomprehension, building up to one glorious burst of self-righteous indignation. Then they spontaneously combust.

I know. I've been there.

One of my earliest experiences with the indignant ire of the New York Show-Business Liberal came in the mid-80s. I was young and skinny and performing with a sketch comedy troupe. One night, after a particularly successful show, we retired to the local bar to get drunk and tell each other how great we were (this is also what young, skinny actors do after a lousy show). I was flirting with one of the young, skinny actresses in the troupe and she was flirting with me. The sly innuendo and double entendres were flying briskly until she innocently asked for my thoughts on President Reagan (the question was along the lines of, "Do you think he's evil and malevolent, or the other way around?") I responded just as innocently, "Well, he was awfully good in King's Row." That was the end of the flirtation, the end of the evening, and eventually the end of the troupe.

That was the first of many such incidents. I soon realized, no matter where I went, I was surrounded. At auditions, in rehearsals, on sets, hanging out in coffee shops, wherever I went for the rest of my life, I'd be with fellow actors who view Republicans not simply as people who subscribe to the principles of a political party but as really, really awful people who subscribe to the principles of a really, really evil political party and who ought to be ashamed of themselves, if not actually tarred and feathered (or at least subjected to much glaring, glowering, tongue clucking, and eye rolling, not to mention considerable exasperated sighing and a healthy dose of sneering and smirking).

I look around, even on this forum, even in this very thread, and I see statements that espouse the most spiteful hatred of conservatives, of their prominent figures, and of their whole belief system; and the people who make such statements act as if they should be considered clever for having made them. If you were Jewish, and these same people called you murderers and fools for believing as you did, and repeated all manner of groundless Anti-Semitic lies and Zionophobic insults; how would you feel if they invoked the sancity of "Their right to express their opinions" as grounds for continuing their vitriol with impunity? Well, now you know how I and other conservatives feel every day. We're told at every turn that we're extremists, that we're mean-spirited, that we're not just wrong but actually evil or monstrous to hold the beliefs we do; and this is not just tolerated by the mainstream, it is treated as the natural order to be enforced and even rewarded.
 
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell I'd like to respond with a few quotes of my own if I may. :Grrr: :Grrr:



Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America . He did nothing to warn the American people, because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was going nowhere. He wasn't elected by the American people, but placed in the Oval Office by the conservative Supreme Court; the economy was sliding into the usual Republican pits and he needed something to hang his presidency on. This guy is a joke. His silence was sleazy and contemptible.
-Lt.Colonel Steve Butler




It looks like congress has finished investigating the 9-11 attacks and doesn't it figure? They spent three weeks and two million dollars investigating the 3000 WTC murders ... but they spent three YEARS and $200 million chasing after Clinton's zipper!
-Jay Leno





The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him
-pResident George W. Bush, September 13, 2001




I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority.
-pResident George W. Bush, March 13, 2002



Clinton's advisors met nearly weekly on how to stop bin Laden ... I didn't detect that kind of focus from the Bush adminsitration.
-Two Star General Donald Kerrick


Oh my my Bush being called a moron by TWO generals no less. I guess you can say your president is an idiot and still be in the military......what wonderful news... 🙂 🙂
 
Bad Vibes wished away to the Cyber-Cornfield in the interest of avoiding conflict
 
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UN Approval

The anti-war lefties have called for UN approval as a prerequisite for action against Iraq because of the "moral authority" of the UN, as opposed to the various selfish motives they accuse the Bush Administration of having. Let's look a little closer.

The General Assembly isn't an organization - it's a forum for conducting normal diplomacy, conveniently located in one place. In practice, this amounts to pissants from third world shitholes spewing anti-American slogans, while at the same time holding their hands out for American money.

The Security Council permanent members (with veto power) are the US, UK, France, Russia and China. The French, as MK accurately observed, are only objecting an attack on Iraq as a negotiating tactic to protect their investment. Russia, a kleptocracy run by the Mafia, objects for the same reason. China is the last of the great communist dictatorships, whose government has murdered millions of Chinese to maintain its power.

The second-tier members of the SC are Ireland and Norway, both democratic states; Colombia, Mexico, and Bulgaria, trying to become democratic states; Singapore, a vest-pocket police state; Syria, governed by Arab national socialists, a sponsor of the Arab terrorists we're fighting; and Mauritius, Cameroon, and Guinea, third world shitholes.

Moral authority? Don't make me laugh.

Strelnikov
 
feel sorry for you Shiningice. I can't imagine living life as you seem to, eaten up by so much petty hatred, stewing in constant resentment over the outcome of the 2000 Election, and only taking pleasure in spitting venom at those who do not see the world exactly as you do. It's no way to live, and I hope you find peace.


Spare me the melodrama. You're blowing this WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion. Im simply responding to your reply nothing more.
 
Bad Vibes wished away to the Cyber-Cornfield in the interest of avoiding conflict
 
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Umm where did you get the theory that I was against going to war with Iraq??? I just think we should wait for the congressional go ahead. As for this whole I pity you thing, its getting old...I feel sorry for YOU ..............There alot of people on this forum who really having a burning seething hatred for liberals and Im sorry you dont see that. I responded quickly because I love political debates, stop trying to be empathic, it doesnt suit you. Save your pity for yourself. As for me being filled with hate......come on now, I simply feel Bush is an idiot, that simple. hatred takes energy and its simply not worth me putting out the effort to hate, like I said you're reading waaaaaaaaaaaay to into this.
 
I must agree with Shining Ice here, although I had intended to stay out of this. MK, your pretense of pitying those who don't share YOUR political opinion sounds arrogant and condescending, in a highly inacceptable way.

In my former rhethorics seminars, I learnt to detect the tricks from the so-called 'unfair rhethorics' bag, and pretending to pity your opponent is only one of them. Somebody like you who seems to be exceptionally well informed (albeit in a lopsided way) doesn't really need that bag of dirty tricks.

I prefer to stay out of political threads here, like many who have a non-conservative, non-American opinion, as this place seems to be dominated by rather outspoken conservatives, from their right-wing to even further right to the ultra-nationalist extremism. Non-conservative posts are immediately steamrollered and flogged. I have received quite a lot of e-mails from members all over the world confirming this view of mine, and that may well be the reason why so many stay out of GenDiscs lately. We're against war-mongering, which makes us rather peaceful in discussions, too...

And now I'll vanish again into my extremely libertarian, European shadow... 🙁
 
There are many members of this forum who simply don't like to be put in a box with a giant label on the lid. "Conservative" or "Liberal"

You'll find there are a number of us who hold extreme views in one end of the spectrum, but then we seem to take an abrupt 180 and take a stance on another issue that boggles the mind. What's up with that? I'll tell you. Contrary to what much of the world thinks, many...MANY Americans (I would even dare to say MOST) do feel they do not belong in either "box." Our political system is set up with three options. Republican, Democrat and OTHER (Other always loses for those that are curious.) Ask most folks in casual conversation where they stand politically, and 'Other' would win everytime. Unfortunately, when matters of policy come for discussions, our out of date and out of touch party system leaves us to make a choice based on the the theory backing that party as a whole. As disgusted as I am with politics in general, I still make a point to vote and I choose a party when forced. I figured deciding between two is still better than being forced to support one. (That whole issue that Freedom isn't really free and that you have to contribute to society to keep it bearable.)

On the issue at hand, right now I'm incdecisive. There is a part of me that sees the need for immediate action, but there is also the side me me that looks at my kid and wonders if I want him in a world of war. 🙁 I just keep seeing that old cartoon with Hitler's mouth watering over Poland like a dog on fresh meat. I'm not pulling out the Nazi thread, I'm merely using that reference as most everyone is familiar with the outcome. Saddam is a real threat as I see it. You can only allow poor behavior to carry on for so long before the person gets brave and decides to do something bigger. A kid who fights on the playground and shoplifts candy is not a threat, but when he gets bigger, angrier and has more ability, well, chances are he's going to pull a gun on someone one day. I think the same holds true here. We're all for busting the ass of anyone who goes against the UN. On the same note, we're cowards for having an interest in self-preservation.

This is a world matter. It would be nice to say it's between two countries and leave it at that, but that is a fairy tale view. Every nation is affected when there is a conflict. The question I'd pose to each country is, "If the outcome is going to somehow assist you, do you not feel obligated to have a stake in the actions that take place?" I am sickened at the thought that some countries treat world conflict like they are a distant realtive waiting for someone to die to get the inheritance.

I wonder something here.

I'm seeing folks defend their view for military action. I'm seeing folks defend their view for less drastic measures. What would happen if you switched sides? Can you do one of two things? Can you defend your opponents view? (That takes guts) Or can you take their argument and refute it with reason? I think that would make for more intersting conversation than finger pointing and name calling which is all this thread has turned into. I don't think a SINGLE post I just read was without insult of some type. 🙁

Ah well...just rambling. Sorry if I've angered anyone, but this thread was just a sad commentary on how irritable people can be. I'm not sure where my thoughts are at the moment which I'm sure make some people gasp in holy terror that I wont take a side. 😛 I just think I should keep my specific opinions to myself until I'm 100% sur eof what they are.

Joby
 
Hal, I wish more liberals would speak up instead of letting the right wingers have the run of the place. 🙁
 
FYI...

To an earlier comment on the military, and your "right" to call your CIC an idiot:

"Butler was suspended from his duties at the Monterey language school following publication of his letter, which could constitute a violation of Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Article 88 bars any commissioned officer from using "contemptuous words" about the president, Congress and various other officials. The matter, which is now attracting national attention, is under investigation by the Air Force."

As long as you stay out of the officer corps, I guess you can say what you like..... Q
 
Concerning the "right" of criticizing the CIC,there is also the general article of the UCMJ,the discredit to the service charge,
shitty posts and duties,denied promotions,extra scrutiny,and a few more things that can be heaped up.

Jay Leno? Come on,you can do better than that.

Haltickling...I always suspected you were a spokesperson of sorts for the "foreign" members...you just confirmed it.Were you an "appointee", or just inherit the job? A more articulate person for the position would be hard to find.
 
This thread has obviously gotten out of control. It has been pruned and will be watched closely. If you want to participate in political threads, and absolutely have to do so on a fetish-forum, try and keep the vitriol to a minimum. If this sort of uncontrolled behavior and back-and-forth name calling continues, the appropriate action will be taken - namely, either deleting the entire thread, or at least locking it.

You're encouraged to exchange political views as well as any other topic on the General Discussion Forum.

You're REQUIRED to abide by the Golden Rule on every Forum, including this one.
 
Heh.

ShiningIce said:
Hal, I wish more liberals would speak up instead of letting the right wingers have the run of the place. 🙁

thats funny, I always saw the liberal side of the TMF more....Gah....I can't stand peace-lovin' hippies.
 
Whats wrong with peace?? I havent seen a hippie since the last time I watched an old 60's movie.
 
Heh...

Nothing wrong with peace, it's just that it is IMPOSSIBLE. I have accepted that. Liberals should as well. About the hippies, the way I see it, all liberals are hippies.
 
No such thing as peace huh? Then what do u call death??..........God that was morbid.
 
Well, Easy.

What do I call death? Simple One Word Answer: Death.
 
Umm its pretty hard to be at war when you're dead Krokus therefor I conclude if you're dead then you're at peace.
 
. . .

ShiningIce said:
Umm its pretty hard to be at war when you're dead Krokus therefor I conclude if you're dead then you're at peace.

Um. . .o. .k....
 
Hey if I could Id live my life the way Vegeta did.......but then I dont have super powers and I cant be wished back...so..................might as well be a tree huggin hippie 😎
 
lmao

ShiningIce said:
Hey if I could Id live my life the way Vegeta did.......but then I dont have super powers and I cant be wished back...so..................might as well be a tree huggin hippie 😎

LOL!! I like that analogy. But still, I feel that you CAN live your life the way he did. In a way....never let go of what you believe in, stay true to yourself, no matter what the circumstances...even if it means death. As a matter of fact, no other character on any show ever has had more of an impact on my life. (I know, im a dork, lol) 😎
 
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