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Another Iraq thread

Re: Re: Re: you anti-war folks just can't see the truth

asutickler said:




Sweeping absolutism, anyone? 🙄


In order to be a functioning member of society, one must allow their beliefs to dictate their behavior in certain instances and to a certain extent. Unilateral reliance on logic leaves no room for concepts such as the difference between right and wrong. Furthermore, the entire concept of logical reasoning by human beings is subjective, to a degree, due to the normal emotional capacities of the human psyche.

The only humans who can be said to truly function without regard to "beliefs" are persons posessing sociopathic tendencies related to a lack of emotional and moral comprehension. Such persons operate solely on cold logic, and will kill, steal, cheat, and etc. based solely upon logical assesments of wether the benefits of such actions outweigh their risk of being caught.

In short, people's beliefs supercede logic on a rather regular basis, and the result is not always a bad one.

Note the word "rational". Yes, you can have beliefs, but WHEN those beliefs become so strong that they FLY IN THE FACE OF LOGIC and RATIONAL THOUGHT, ie Unquestioning Loyalty, Blind Faith, and so on, then THESE BELIEFS HAVE BECOME BAD/WRONG/ETC and DO NEED TO BE PUT TO AN END. Logic IS needed to make sure that these Beliefs do not take total control of peoples actions. THAT was my point.
 
how many inocents?

the short answer is of course, "as many as it takes".
in real action great care is used in planning, and executing the plan, to avoiding "collateral damage". speaking from a military stand point, and using cold logic, to kill inocent by-standers during an operation, it concidered wastefull, sloppy, and a partial failure.
that is how the military thinks.

patriotism has nothing to do with this thread, i'll contain MY comments along those lines in that thread.

steve
 
Well I think I lost track of what this thread is actually about, so I'll just weigh in with my general overall opinion of the war in Iraq.

First of all, I am glad that Saddam is gone. He was a menace to his people and to his neighbors. It is my firm belief that dictators who employ tactics of terror such as human shields as a means of maintaining power should be removed, violently if necessary. If our policy was to continually attempt to negotiate and offer concessions to those who hold hostages without any decisive action ever being taken, would not more people resort to taking hostages? It is unfortunate that lives must be lost in such endeavors.

That said, I do question the Bush Administration's motives for attacking Iraq in the first place, as well as the plans that have yet to be fully implemented concerning Iraq's future. Is Bush & Co. merely trying to save face by presenting the charade of a preliminary democratic process when the real intention is to take the oil and run? Has the administration considered the international ramifications of failing to establish stability in post-Saddam Iraq? Do they even care? As I have stated in other posts I am extremely reluctant to predict anything for certain, but nonetheless I have managed to provide myself with a decent amount of worst-case scenarios to think about.

Although this view may be unpopular, I feel that the threat posed by Iraq's alleged WMD's should be the least important reason (among those frequently cited by the administration, anyways) for attacking Iraq. Even if chemical and/or biological agents are ultimately found in Iraq, I highly doubt that the regime possessed the giant slingshot necessary to deliver such weapons. With regard to terrorist access to such weapons, the stuff would still have to be smuggled into the US, and most of it could be manufactured in a basement laboratory with the proper funding. Besides, if WMD's are such a threat to the current administration, why is North Korea still running its mouth?

While I don't want to disregard the importance of WMD's, I don't think that the administration views them as importantly as they would have us believe. North Korea supposedly has nukes now. Is the US planning to remove the North Korean regime based on the fear of thesae weapons? Since the attack on Iraq was billed as a humanitarian effort in the later stages of preparation, should the North Korean regime be removed simply because it is oppressive and brutal? North Korea flaunts its two or so alleged nuclear weapons, most likely counting on the fact that the US will not invade unless it either becomes the cornerstone of instability for US interests in Asia or suddenly sprouts oil. So far the gamble seems to be paying off.
 
Re: you anti-war folks just can't see the truth

areenactor said:
i have the feeling you just hate america so fucking much nothing would ever convince you that america was right to topple saddam/iraq.
I'm not anti-war as such, just anti the way this war has been justified. And I'm certain no-one here believes I hate America; not truly. I think it gets dangerously close to "blind patriotism" to say that everyone who doesn't agree 100% with the war, must hate America. Quite often it's the exact opposite. People find it incredibly painful to ignore the people of the country the love, being lied to about the war's implementation.

areenactor said:
iraqi civilians were killed? no shit, there was a war there remember?!?! instead, why not think how many civilians weren't killed due to the u.s.'s caution in target selection.
There is/was a war alright, but we've been hugely lied to about how it was carried out. We've also been lied to about the level of civillian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. Knowing how passionatley you feel about the subject Steve, I dunno if you'll read my Part 3 thread, (you probably didn't think too much of Part 2) but I'll be writing a great deal about the false figures in that.

areenactor said:
frankly i don't care about iraqi civilians, i'm concerned that now terrorists won't get weapons from saddam/iraq!
steve
Let's hope not.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: you anti-war folks just can't see the truth

theallknowing1 said:
Logic IS needed to make sure that these Beliefs do not take total control of peoples actions. THAT was my point.


The logic employed by a particular person is influenced and, to an extent, based upon their personal beliefs. People rely on both logic AND their personal values/beliefs when taking actions or making decisions. THAT was my point.

Naturally, there has to be a balance, and overwhelming or total surrender to a particular belief can be extrordinarily harmful... But so can an overwhelming or total reliance on logic. As with nearly all things related to humans, it depends to a great deal on the individual in question.
 
sushi854 said:

Although this view may be unpopular, I feel that the threat posed by Iraq's alleged WMD's should be the least important reason (among those frequently cited by the administration, anyways) for attacking Iraq. Even if chemical and/or biological agents are ultimately found in Iraq, I highly doubt that the regime possessed the giant slingshot necessary to deliver such weapons. With regard to terrorist access to such weapons, the stuff would still have to be smuggled into the US, and most of it could be manufactured in a basement laboratory with the proper funding. Besides, if WMD's are such a threat to the current administration, why is North Korea still running its mouth?


To an extent, I agree. Saddam Hussein needed to be removed simply because he was/is a heinously cruel and crazed individual unfit to be left in charge of a pet store, much less a small nation. Saddam's reign should have ended in 1991. Regardless of who is to blame for leaving Saddam in power, the fact remains: we should have removed the Butcher of Baghdad the FIRST time we had the chance. We ("we" meaning the entire coalition involved in the original Gulf War) did not, and since that time millions of Iraqis have paid the price. This error was in desperate need of correction. Saddam had to go. Period.

You raise an excellent point in regards to chemical WMD. The components to make chemical weapons are relatively easy to obtain and combine, should someone have the knowledge and some simple equipment. It's also fairly common knowledge that Iraq did not have a functioning nuclear weapons program, thanks in large part to a brave Israeli pilot who perished in the recent space shuttle tragedy.

The WMD that I believe the American government was correct in worrying about is the third type: biological weaponry. Although not as immediately destructive as the "N" or "C" in "NBC warfare," biological agents have the potential to create a medical crisis of staggering proportions, which would be greatly compounded by public panic. While custom-made biological agents are extremely difficult to create, they are relatively simple to transport. A live culture of a biological agent could be hidden almost anywhere, in anything. Furthermore, in many instances all one needs is a tiny live sample of a biological agent to create far more of the same living weapon. Even worse is the potential for the use of such an agent as a suicide weapon. Imagine the death toll and panic if even a handful of infected terrorists touched down at various airports around the nation, and set about visiting various tourist attractions. Should Saddam Hussein's regime have acquired or created such weapons, he would have been all too happy to either use them himself, or give/sell them to the likes of Osama bin Laden or other such terrorist scum. As was clearly evidenced by his actions against even his own people, Saddam Hussein was a man entirely devoid of moral or ethical principles. I'm not trying to claim that Saddam was actually in possession of biological weapons... but if it turns out that he was, we may have saved the Western world from an unimaginable catastrophe.

North Korea is a different matter entirely, even though Kim Jong Il is a monster on par with Saddam Hussein. Under Kim Jong Il's leadership, the North Korean government spent billions of dollars developing nuclear weapons over the last 10 years- while the people of his nation were so wracked by famine that many resorted to cannibalism simply to stay alive. The thought of such a man possessing nuclear arms is chilling, to say the least... however, one factor separates him from Saddam Hussein: Kim Jong Il is capable of rational thought and, unlike Saddam, is unwilling to risk martyrdom. Furthermore, North Korea has China to worry about. The two nations are allies in name... but imagine China's reaction should North Korea take unwise action. Peace in the region works in China's favor, and they are certainly willing to stress that point militarily, if necessary. By contrast, Iraq had no neighboring second-tier superpower to check its actions. North Korea may well need to be dealt with militarily... but such action would likely involve surgical air strikes to disable North Korea's nuclear capabilities, (and their ability to shell Seoul) rather than a full-scale invasion. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
 
Up until recently, I also believed that Saddam Hussein was capable of rational thought and unwilling to risk martyrdom. I don't always agree with your posts, asu, but in this case I think you are right on concerning North Korea. Not that it matters, for that is what debate is all about, but I had not considered the influence of China on the whole North Korea situation (i'm an international relations major so don't tell any of my professors i ignored china 🙂. Rule #1 in any future security/defense planning: don't ignore China. China does in fact promote stability in Asia at all costs, primarily because it wants to assert itself as a responsible member of a global society, albeit on its own terms. China will keep North Korea in line to some extent, but can you imagine, in light of their opposition to the Iraq war, what their reaction would be should the US decide to pursue a military operation in their region? It would probably be similar to the US reaction if China decided to conduct military operations in Mexico. So thank you for bringing up China.

ps That doesn't mean that there are not other places in need of liberating if the goal of the current administration is humanitarian intervention.
 
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