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Are the USA above international justice?

Haltickling

2nd Level Green Feather
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Today the UN Tribunal for War Crimes in The Hague took up its work. The USA as the only nation refuses to accept it; they demand general immunity for their troops, and their troops alone. Not Iraq or North Korea, not China or Libya, no, the US of A!

They demand that US military is excepted from international justice, a right that will be claimed by every 'evil axis' state as well now, and justly so. Are they afraid that US troops are more likely to commit war crimes, or what?

To achieve their aim, they are attempting to coerce the UN by vetoing all international peace keeping missions from now on, starting with their today's veto on the prolongation of UN troops in Bosnia. Now most European nations will have to withdraw their troops from that region as well, as most of them are depending on an UN mandate to continue. Mission interrupted by politicians.

IMO, this kind of policy is rather shortsighted and dangerous. The international UN tribunal gets corrupted by the biggest military power, and it instantly becomes a toothless paper tiger from its very start. The trial against the former Serbian president Milosevic is pointless now, because he and all further war criminals will scoff at The Hague and the UN. The USA torpedoed the biggest advancement in international justice in history, and they seem to forget that without the UN, there will never be an international alliance against Iraq or whomever. A high price to pay…
 
I'll get back on this one,as I don't have much information on the subject.However,given my own choice,I would pull the US out of the UN,throw the UN off of American soil,and it will never be so cold in hell to make me accept a UN or world court decision of any kind.The UN is one of the biggest jokes in political history,and gets worse as the third world gains influence over the developed nations.

The US was removed from the human rights council and replaced by...Syria?
The Korean war was won despite the North Koreans and Chinese knowing our moves....The USSR was on the security council.Anyone else see a conflict of interest?
The relationship between the US and the UN is one-sided already.The US has given money,resources,and blood for the UN,and our only consideration is to give more while we get shit on at every opportunity.The UN is the same failure as its predecessor,the League of Nations.
 
Sigh...

BANJA LUKA - "Being humanists, we can not accept the violent behaviour of England and America in this case", said the president of the Co-ordinational Board of the Serbian Coalition for the Republic of Srpska Predrag Lazarevic speaking about the American - British attack on Iraq. At the press conference Lazarevic said that the International Tribunal in the Hague should put the representatives of the USA and he Great Britain on trial for killing civilians in Iraq, mentioning the consequences from the radiation of the uranium. Even though Iraq is an Islamic country, the Serbian Coalition for the RS, as a coalition of the parties with humanistic orientation, can not stand passively while those who protect the Islamic world from us kill women and children.


This crap is why I think the entire thing is doomed to failure....the "evil axis" states won't extradite anyway, so why play their little game? All we get is accusations, and grief... :sowrong: Q
 
I don't have all of the facts on the Tribunal that Hal is speaking of, so I will not enter an unqualified opinion on that.
I will simply say that the USA is one of the only countries to immedietely admit it's wrong doings. When those Canadian soldiers were accidentally killed a few months ago, there was no skirting the issue. It was right there in front of me on the Newswire "USA accidentally kills Canadien soldiers". And today I saw "USA mistakenly bombs Afghan wedding, kills as many as 200".
I am not saying to reward us for doing what everyone should do anyway. I saw another newswire report today about an Islamic militant whom Arafat claimed was under house arrest just a few days ago. Yet he was just seen a few days later at a rally. Arafat, a supposed world leader, bullshitted us. How much bullshitting did the Taliban do about hiding Al Quada? How much bullshitting is Iraq and Iran doing right now?
The point I'm making is that the USA is very honest when it comes to mistakes of war, sometimes so honest that it makes me sick. When I hear reports on my own TV that a plane accidentally flew too close to the White House, and that if it was a real threat that we couldn't have stopped it in time, it makes me want to gag the press.
I cannot give an honest rebuttal to Hal's question without all of the facts. What I will say is that America has often served as the watchdog for the free world. Perhaps that is just my warped American point of view, but that's how I see it.
 
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Not all Europeans agree with Hal, as the following will show. See the last three paragraphs for examples of why the US Government is doing the right thing by rejecting the ICC.

Strelnikov



London Daily Telegraph
July 1, 2002
Lone Stand For Justice

It may seem odd that anyone could be against the establishment of an international tribunal to investigate war crimes and genocide.

Many people - by no means only liberal internationalists - dislike the idea that dictators are able to escape justice simply because their own national legal systems have been subverted.

Such people find it hard to understand why America is refusing to support the International Criminal Court (ICC), which is formally constituted today. Clare Short, the International Development Secretary, has described Washington's attitude as "an enormous disappointment".

Cherie Blair has called it "a lost opportunity". Surely, they say, the Americans must accept that human rights apply to everyone.

Yet this is to beg the question. The dispute here is not about whether Washington supports human rights. America has an immeasurably better record on freedom and democracy than most of the nations that have ratified the ICC (such beacons of justice as Tajikistan, Cambodia and the Congo).

The issue, rather, is: who has the authority to bring cases to trial? The essence of any legal system is that there is an agreed enforcement mechanism. When someone commits a crime, many of his victims may have a legitimate grievance, but, instead of taking action themselves, they allow the properly constituted authorities to prosecute on their behalf.

A similar compact pertains among states. There must be an accepted way of deciding who has jurisdiction in any given case. Until now, it has been agreed that the legitimate authority is the state on whose territory the alleged offence was committed.

The Statute of Rome, which sets up the ICC, tosses that precept aside and, in so doing, destroys the understanding on which international law has rested for centuries. For the first time, it establishes the principle that treaties are binding not only on the states that are party to them, but also on non-signatories.

Hitherto, legal systems have been rooted in democratic assemblies. Laws are passed by national legislatures, which are responsible to their peoples, and treaties signed by accountable governments. But, from today, the ICC will cast off the guy-ropes that attach it to its constituent states.

From now on, it will function as an international body answerable to no one. The idea that laws ought to be made by the people's representatives will be replaced by the pre-modern concept that law-makers are answerable to no one but themselves.

Well, you might say, what's so bad about that? After all, international judges are surely likely to be more impartial than the judiciary of some tin-pot dictatorship. Don't be so sure. Consider just a few of the recent high-profile cases that have involved extra-territorial jurisdiction.

There was the disgraceful saga of Gen Augusto Pinochet's detention, but, oddly, no equivalent arrest of Fidel Castro. There have been attempts to indict Ariel Sharon, but not Yasser Arafat. There was a ruling against the British Government following the execution of an active IRA unit in Gibraltar, but no international case has ever been brought against the republican movement over, say, human rights violations at Enniskillen.

Seen against this background, Washington's belief that the ICC would become a vehicle for Left-wing jurists, radical Islamists and assorted anti-Americans suddenly seems rather more reasonable. Already there have been mutterings about trying Henry Kissinger and indicting Margaret Thatcher for the sinking of the Belgrano. (NOTE ADDED BY STREL: an Argentine warship sunk by a British submarine during the Falklands War, i. e., in combat.) There have even been suggestions that Western peacekeepers should be tried for collateral damage in the Kosovar and Afghan campaigns.

Given the activism of the judiciary in general, and of international courts in particular, it is perfectly possible to envisage such cases coming to trial. George Bush is quite right to stand up for the principle of national democracy. We only wish our own Government had half as much sense.
 
Keeping it short and sweet i have to agree with shark.
 
I don't think that the US is looking for a licence to commit crimes, only that we not step into something that opens our troops and leaders up to political witch-hunts. Yes, they say that there are safegaurds in place, but we've heard that song before.

Then again, Bush has gone out on a limb on a few things, and he doesn't speak for the whole nation.

😎
 
What's the point of playing the game if no one else will acknowledge the rules? Unless, of course, those rules can be used against the United States, in which case the Rule of Law will suddenly become so sacred and important to third-world kleptocracies that routinely slaughtered their own people as lately as this morning.

The ICC will become nothing more than than the geopolitical equivalent of the woman who sued MacDonald's because she was burned by their hot coffee, which she decided to hold between her knees while shifting gears on the freeway; or the homeless man who sued the Public Library for daring to throw him out after he staked out the children's reading area as his personal latrine, claiming that his Constitutional Right to intimidate and threaten random bystanders had been violated. Saddam Hussein massacres his own Kurdish citizens by the villageful just to test his nifty new nerve gas collection, yet he expects reparations for the accidental civillian casualties when he uses Iraq's population as human sheilds for his military targets.

Also, I don't want to single out the French, but can you look me in the eye and tell me that you honestly believe that a nation which:
A: fought harder to keep out Euro-Disney than it did against Nazi occupational forces;
B: that refused to give Ira Einhorn back to the Philadelphia courts because they were afraid he might actually have to face the consequences of brutally murdering his girlfriend Holly Maddux back in the 70s, hiding her body in his closet, and spending decades publicly mocking her family by bragging about it and acting as if he were the persecuted victim;
C: where you can read at night by the light of burning synagogues and the Paris Fire Chief thinks there's no need for an arson investigation when the Israeli Embassy burns to the ground in the middle of the night;
D: where the #1 bestseller purports to reveal the "Truth" that the September 11th Massacre was a hoax perpetrated by the Bush family for their own political gain;
can be trusted to deliver fair and impartial justice against terrorism and war crimes? Please. Yasser Arafat could publicly sodomize an entire Israeli day-care center live on CNN, and half of Europe would beat people off with sticks for the honor of being first in line to lick his genitals clean.

As for the UN being needed for the international coallition against Terror, apart from Britain's much-appreciated support in the field, and Pakistan & Iran falling all over themselves to turn State's Evidence on Al-Qaeda in order to avoid becoming the challenger in Round Two of this little Title Bout, just how much did the "International Community" really do for us against the Taliban (and Iraq before them) except refuse to let us fly over their airspace as a show of impotent spite? Oh, right, I forgot that Greece sent over a tray of Baklava back in December. I guess that sure entitles the rest of the world to criticize the way we go about keeping the rabid jackals away from our children's throats.

It isn't that the U.S. thinks it's above International Justice. It's that we're tired of trying to get the rest of the world to live up to the concept.
 
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Well, I read this thread earlier today, then stepped back to find the point of importance to me. I reevaluated what I'd seen recently on the news, I'd reviewed my basic history 101 of WWII and other pertaining conflict that created this monster we now try to house in a building in NYC. In other words, I took a big deep breath......and came back.

What I found was that others had so very eloquently stated what I wished I had said myself. So here, is where I put a cork in it...and just read whatever posts come up.

Joby
 
Well, at least this brought some clarity about the motives. Most of your argumentation can be boiled down pretty well to one single reason: non-acceptance of the United Nations as a global organization. I won't get into a dispute over that; there are a lot of pros and cons which support both sides of the coin, and the UN is certainly not an ideal constellation. It's a matter of political opinions, not a matter of facts. IMO, if the USA is so unhappy about the UN, they should leave the community, and no longer use it for legitimating their own political agenda internationally.

This would also tie in nicely with other recent isolationist tendencies of US policy, like refusing to sign the Kyoto Protocol on global carbondioxide-reduction, refusing to banish anti-personnel mines as illegal weapons (USA is one of the biggest producers), or refusing to accept a UN resolution about the Rights of Children, naming just three of many examples. I'm concerned with that policy of isolation in the age of worldwide globalization, it brings up unpleasant déjà-vus from history.

One word about 'giving US money, resources and blood' for UN missions under the Human Rights aspect: The USA never stepped into a conflict if neither their strategic nor their economic interests were at stake (which is quite understandable), however cruel the genocide and atrocities were (like in Rwanda). But: The UN missions were ever so often used as a convenient cloak of humanity, to gain support from allies and the countries around the conflict area.

And MadKalnod: Unlike the US, the European states accept the UN. Most of them have agreed (even in their constitutions) not to send troops abroad, except for UN peacekeeping missions. So if the UN mandate ends, it's against their LAW to send down their soldiers. Your anti-European attitude is a personal prejudice, probably born out of a lack of unbiased information. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further, as reasoning against prejudices never brings results.
 
Some validity..

I'll admit, the one about land mines is disturbing, but I think the rest are opinions and decisions that a superpower at times is entitled to make. The comment about never stepping in except when our interests are threatened is a bit harsh...our interests are pretty much everywhere, and unlike "Roll The Tanks Russia" we interceded fairly "quietly", given our ability to wreak havoc...if the Cold War had gone the other way, you'd be living in a far different world. One where criticism or reluctance would cause the tanks to roll very easily. Bet there wouldn't be nearly the outcry the US gets every time it twitches, because the Russians answer would be to turn the tanks toward the source and pay it a visit. Regardless, you have summed it up fairly well..we DON'T trust the UN or it's policies...and yes, we SHOULD drop out. Sad, but perhaps necessary at this time...
 
Haltickling said:
IMO, if the USA is so unhappy about the UN, they should leave the community *snip*

Where HAVE I heard this one recently?

Same rules apply across the globe. You can't make everyone happy, but if you're going to depend on the assistance, you have to suck up the things you don't like. That goes for all parties, no?
:sowrong:
Joby
 
I definitely agree,Hal.I would have never joined in the first place. the Kyoto treaty,as most environmental laws,are based on highly disputed ,or junk,science,and I agree with our refusal to sign on. The other part of this treaty puts our production at the mercy of outside interests,notably the ultra-developed and civilized third world.Screw that.

The rights of the child treaty allows for government intervention in how people raise their kids.Some UN bureaucrat telling you how to do that?There are enough problems with the schools and bureaucrats in the US with that.

I have seen it discussed,even in this forum,that the US either gets too involved,or leaves too early and goes back to isolationism.Half the world bitches that they need aid,the other half bitches that we are involved.Why bother at all?

Like I said,I totally agree with Hal.
 
Most of them have agreed (even in their constitutions) not to send troops abroad, except for UN peacekeeping missions. So if the UN mandate ends, it's against their LAW to send down their soldiers.

My deep and sincere apologies, Hal. In the light of this information, I gladly retract my previous statement about U.N. Peacekeeping and wish all perceived hostility away to the cornfield. If it’s actually illegal for European countries to deploy troops, (a step in the right direction, actually, considering the bloody history of the continent) then my remarks were quite clearly wrong. I’m more than willing to listen to reason, and as per the Scientific Method I will modify my hypotheses when new evidence is introduced. We can always discuss this stuff like sensible adults, Hal. I’m more than willing to listen, unlike certain NamEless sUbaTomic paRticles One kNows,eh?

I further apologize if my style of discourse, which relies heavily upon absurdist exaggeration to emphasize points, has been misperceived as hostility and belligerence. I shall lay off the Dennis Miller and P.J. O’Rourke for a little while until their influence fades.

However, I must provide a rebuttal to the instances of U.S. refusal to sign the three treaties you mention.

A: The Kyoto Global Warming treaty was seriously flawed. It contained a clause by which industrialized nations would agree to reduce the amount of "Carbon Units" (I do not recall the precise term, but it's a measure of how much CO2 and other "Greenhouse Gasses" are put out during a set time period) they produced per year, which is all well and good, but these Carbon Units could then be sold to other countries in lesser developed areas, allowing them to increase the amount of pollution they produced. Total Greenhouse Gas levels would actually not have been reduced under this scheme. At best, nothing would change, and considering that the nations buying allotments of Carbon production generally do not begin to approach the level of pollution-prevention technology of the selling nations, the environmental situation could even have been made worse. Further, the reduction in industrial activity would have a detrimental effect upon the economies of the U.S. and other G8 nations, and the resulting recession/depression could drag the rest of the world down with it. On top of all this was the fact that many of the worst-polluting nations, notably China, demanded clauses that they remain exempt from the treaty even if it did pass. Conclusion: not much to gain and an awful lot to lose, so it went unsigned. The U.S. was not alone in refusing to sign, as the last I heard (Pre-9/11/01, it kinda dropped from the headlines after that) the only country willing to sign on was Romania, and I suspect that they were mainly interested in the opportunity to buy up carbon units. The U.S. was too frequently presented as if it were the lone holdout, and nothing could be further from the truth. From a certain view, in fact, we could be seen as actually joining consensus world opinion on this one, not being dangerously isolationist.

B: Land Mines are nasty pieces of work, I freely admit, but a universal ban will cause as many problems as it solves. Land mines do have legitimate military uses, a perfect example being their deployment along the North Korea/South Korea border. If the border was not protected by minefields, does anyone honestly believe that North Korea would waste any time swooping down on South Korea like the Plague of Locusts upon Egypt? If the mines were gone, South Korea would require a vastly increased number of troops to keep the peace (I shall not open the U.N. Peacekeeping debate again just now), at a certain great cost in money and a potentially greater cost in human life. Land mines don’t panic and open fire across the border when spooked by enemy activity.
No, the problem isn't land mines, it is their indiscriminate use by warring tribal factions in places like the Balkan states and Afghanistan, where they were scattered across farm fields and schoolyards with the specific goal of maiming and killing as many noncombatant members of the ethnic group to be cleansed as possible. These are the places where all those photos of hollow-eyed children with missing limbs originate, and not where mines are used to protect legitimate military objectives. In this respect, a ban on Land Mines is very much the geopolitical equivalent of restrictive Gun Control Laws as drafted in the U.S. A criminal commits a armed robbery, and rather than take steps to keep the criminal in prison where he can no longer hurt the general public, the goal is to blame and punish the manufacturer of the gun and deny guns to those who are already using them safely and responsibly. As with the American Gun Control movement, none of this treaty's adherents will acknowledge that the people committing the atrocities it is ostensibly meant to stop are invariably going to ignore this new law as well. The Ethnic Cleansers in the Balkans are already violating innumerable laws of god and man against murder, rape, and theft, yet some new treaty is supposed to make them abandon dreams of genocide and take up needlepoint instead? Once again, signing the treaty would not produce any gain in lives saved from rogue states and would very probably endanger the lives of many more American soldiers. IIRC, I read an article on the woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize some years ago for proposing this treaty (her name sadly escapes me), and when confronted with the above assessment, she made some sneeringly dismissive comment to the effect that she considered the lives of American soldiers to be beneath her concern, and I got the distinct impression that she acted as if endangering U.S. troops was a laudable goal in itself.

C: I confess to having heard little and read even less about the Rights of Children resolution, so I am not in possession of all the details. Is it designed to punish states like Thailand, which actively provide support to (and profit from) the booming underground business of selling children from poor rural families into sexual slavery? Is it designed to punish the Palestinian Authority, which considers Jewish children to be targets of choice in its war against Israel, and offers financial incentives to Palestinian families who wish to send their own children into the fight as living torpedoes? Or is it, as Shark suggests, intended to set up a welfare bureaucracy which siphons money from American taxpayers the entire time it berates them for spanking their kids or smoking in their presence? I won't go so far as to say that I agree with the tinfoil-hat contingent, who believe that Black Helicopters of the U.N. are poised to snatch up American children to be raised in re-education camps where they would be indoctrinated to turn in their parents as enemies of the New World Order. I do, however, think that this and the other treaties mentioned are more intended so that politicians can congratulate themselves on their own terrific Goodness because they took the maverick position of opposing Bad Things like Global Warming and Accidental Land Mine Deaths and Child Abuse, and taking the radical step of signing a piece of paper which agrees that such things are Bad without really doing anything concrete to keep the worst offenders from carrying on as usual.
 
Speaking as a Brit, I would rather remove vital, dangling, parts of my anatomy with a rusty bread knife, than see the UK sign up to the ICC. To be honest, I don't see not signing up as giving whoever doesn't sign up carte blanche to commit crimes. I mean no offence to Hal when I say this, but most Brits feel the same about the EU as yanks do about the UN. Every week we are shit on and pay out, every week we get fuck all back apart from what we could make elsewhere.

I think the ICC is a golden opportunity for every PC AND opportunist backstabbing bunch of turd stranglers to hammer countries at the expense of individuals freedoms. Of course with Tony Blergh and his bunch of lefty gits in charge at No 10, we've got no chance. He'd like nothing better than the opportunity to sign away every individual right this country has. Even France is getting second thoughts about the whole "all nations together" philosophy. During the past 20 years or so, France's attitude towards Europe and Germany in particular, was that if was going to get raped, it might as well get married. But even the french are beginning to feel as if all this integration business is shafting it. The EU is nothing better than a less controversioal version of Nazi-ism, that it insidiously and irrevocably draining away our rights and our individual freedom as a nation. Even though it's multi-continent, I view the ICC as part of the effort. Quite frankly, if the soldiers of a nation (for example) are going to commit atrocities, then that country will pay for it. Sooner or later, they will run out of rope and end up hanging themselves. For better policing of individual, international criminals you don't need something as all-encroaching and right-erroding as the ICC.
 
Who woulda thunk it? Something Hal and I agree on: the US should leave the UN, and eject that body from our soil. Since the German Government has relocated to Berlin, they could offer the UN the use of their former offices in Bonn. THat would put the UN conveniently close to the Europarliament in Strasbourg, the Euro-bureau-crats in Brussels, and the ICC in Den Haag.

As for "Rights of the Child" treaties and similar bullshit, we need to squash these things like cockroaches. The following is the likely result if we don't. It's labeled as satire, but there are plenty of PC lefties who really do think this way (some of them in government) and they all love feel-good UN treaties like this.

Strelnikov



Homefeeding Children: Threat or Menace?
By Lydia McGrew CNSNews.com Satire June 12, 2002

The recent tragic death from malnutrition of seven-year-old Johnny Marfan of Bensonville draws our attention to the growing trend toward so-called "homefeeding." While the majority of the local children still receive their nutrition from state cafeterias or approved, registered private cafeterias, a growing minority of parents - hundreds by some estimates - are engaged in homefeeding, a practice in which children receive at least breakfast and dinner in their own homes as provided by their parents.

In accordance with law, the Marfans informed the state health department that they were homefeeding Johnny. But in this state, homefeeding is relatively unregulated, giving carte blanch to parents to feed their children virtually any food under the sun; meat, milk, cookies, butter, pie - anything goes. Some states require parents to have a certified degree in nutrition or at least be monitored by an accredited nutritionist. But here, parents do not even have to fill out periodic reports detailing what they are feeding their children.

Opponents of homefeeding argue that parents like the Marfans used homefeeding as a cover for abuse and neglect, with terrible results. While this remains in question, we've seen nothing to disprove this. Calista Nicole-Carson of the state Department of Cafeterias and Caloric Monitoring says, "I realize that there are conscientious parents who genuinely try to feed their children what they need. But they should have no objection to filling out the forms we are introducing, describing each of the meals they give." That seems a reasonable step in safeguarding our most precious resource - our children. "Pro-active steps are necessary to insure we are protecting all children," says Nicole-Carson. "It is ridiculous not to monitor what all children are fed because of a misguided concern for 'privacy' or 'freedom,' and such lack of regulation allows children to slip fatally through the cracks."

Other critics are concerned about parents' lack of necessary qualifications. "Every year we make new nutritional discoveries," says Dr. Sue d'Panzoff of the University of Omasota. "Parents cannot possibly keep up with each breakthrough in nutritional science and give their children these benefits." It's preposterous for us to leave such vital functions to amateurs who claim authority based on something as flimsy as parenthood, particularly in the realm of keeping pace with nutritional advances. "Who knows what changes we may need to make next year to improve children's nutrition," asks d'Panzoff. "At a minimum, homefeeding programs must be carefully monitored in the domicile to make sure all the latest advances are represented."

Still others point out the social skills homefed children are missing. Ms. Nicole-Carson tells us, "During meals at the public cafeterias, these children watch educational videos about crucial subjects like the environment, sex, and the evils of capitalism. The food itself is culturally diversified, and each day the children are taught a different set of table manners from another culture around the world."

Homefeeders rely in large part on outmoded history in defending their decision to place their own children out of the mainstream. "As recently as 1992, the majority of children in the United States were homefed," says Philip Flicka, of the right-wing Home Food Legal Defense Association. "Even when kids went to school, they were allowed to bring lunches packed by their moms." Whether Mr. Flicka is right or not, it seems that homefeeding is here to stay, consequences be damned. But we cannot be too vigilant. Homefeeders of good will should, as Ms. Nicole-Carson says, be entirely open to having their homes and programs monitored by qualified nutritionists for the good of our children. Any small amount of time and privacy this costs parents will be more than repaid in lives saved. If the Marfans had been properly monitored, Johnny would still be alive. There is nothing more valuable than the life and safety of a child, and for that reason, strictures on homefeeding must be tightened in this state.
 
Haltickling said:
Well, at least this brought some clarity about the motives. Most of your argumentation can be boiled down pretty well to one single reason: non-acceptance of the United Nations as a global organization. I won't get into a dispute over that; there are a lot of pros and cons which support both sides of the coin, and the UN is certainly not an ideal constellation. It's a matter of political opinions, not a matter of facts. IMO, if the USA is so unhappy about the UN, they should leave the community, and no longer use it for legitimating their own political agenda internationally.

[rest deleted]


To say that the UN is not ideal is a vast understatement. I regard the UN General Assembly as dominated by anti-Western, anti-democratic forces, biased against the U.S., and viciously biased against Israel.

Most UN agencies are just like the General Assembly; only the veto power keeps the Security Council from being the same.

This new court is likely to be as bad as the General Assembly, if not worse. I do not believe that any American would get a fair trial in it, and it is wise for us to deny its jurisdiction over any American citizen.

One thing that I do agree with you about: The U.S. should quit the UN, and expel the UN from New York City. If you love them so much, you can put up with the ranting UN delegations in your own country.

Be warned: In NY, they park their limos anywhere they feel like, and then avoid the parking tickets via diplomatic immunity.
 
milagros317 said:

Be warned: In NY, they park their limos anywhere they feel like, and then avoid the parking tickets via diplomatic immunity.

Let's hope it does them as much good as it did Joss Ackland in Lethal Weapon 2 then! 😀

"Diplomatic immunity!...(neener neener neener!!!!)

KABOOOM!!!!!

"It's just been revoked!" (Yippee ki aye, maggot farmer!)
 
The UN, in principal, WAS intended for good things, and a way to sort out issues without going to war. Kind of like how chess was supposed to be a way to settle disputes without bloodshed - like war, you need strategy, planning and luck to win. But no one dies in the end. If everyone in the UN stuck to the principals of waht it was all about, rather than their own politics.... well, controversey wouldn't go away, becuase humans never seem to have enough to complain about.... but I think if the principals were adheared to, things might be a little better in the world. If less humans are dying terribly, I'm willing to put my tax $ towards that, rather than bad public art, or keeping an ancient person on life support, or paying for a politician' salary (the guys who write the laws so that you need to pay top dollar to get a lawyer to guide you throught the legal system full of it's own language and intracacies...and most lawmakers are lawyers or businessmen who consult with lawyers on writing the laws...) You know, whatever is along those lines.....

That being said, I'm pretty much disinchanted with large groups of human in general. No side has a lock on kindness, wisdom, justice and good behavior.
 
Speaking as a Brit, I would rather remove vital, dangling, parts of my anatomy with a rusty bread knife, than see the UK sign up to the ICC. To be honest, I don't see not signing up as giving whoever doesn't sign up carte blanche to commit crimes. I mean no offence to Hal when I say this, but most Brits feel the same about the EU as yanks do about the UN. Every week we are shit on and pay out, every week we get fuck all back apart from what we could make elsewhere.
[/QUOTE]

BigJim, you've raised some excellent points. I must say, I've not put much thought into how the EU must be viewed by the Europeans...but really, it's a sort of microcosm of the UN. It contains the same fundamental flaws that the UN does...prime among these flaws is the belief that all members are going to benefit from such a commitment. As in any "spread the wealth" scheme, from Marxism to the income tax to a global federation of nations, the largest producers are going to be contributing a vastly larger sum of resources, no matter how "equal" it looks after enough math.
The UK is (no offense to other European nations) the premier power in the EU, and is burdened with much the same role that America has in the global community. I think Mr. Blair is overly eager to portray England as the "Local America" to the EU and overcommits his nation to things which are not in it's interests.
One last thing...although several other nations have had their turn on the world's stage as the lead, America is the first to set the rule that Might does NOT necessarily make right...that sometimes the best use of power is not to use it at all (a decision exemplified by the non-use of nuclear weapons). We make bad decisions too, but by and large we've always been true to our morals and allowed other nations to be true to theirs. I can honestly say I'm damn proud to be American, and would be honoured to give my life for this freedom I enjoy.
 
As much as I hate to admit the failure of a body created for good things, I would have to say I'd be all for the US leaving the UN and relocating the headquarters. I think the UN is still capable of good things, but should focus more on humanitarian efforts than military ones. This is where the failure always seems to happen.

In my opinion, the UN is concerned with European interests alone.

It's becoming quite fashionable to disagree with the US on anything these days. Yes, Bush goes out on a limb on a lot of things, but even as someone who didn't vote for him and is NOT a Republican by any stretch of the imagination...I back the way he always stands up for our soveriegnity, even if it's off-the-wall at times.

It seems to me that the whole world is ganging up on us recently, at least politically. Yes, they played the Star Spangled Banner in London after 9/11, and the whole world poured their hearts out in sorrow...but, as I said, it's almost as if it's political suicide to agree with us on any world issue.

The US is seen as a spoiled child, or at least a rich, well-meaing dolt. I disagree with this.

Let us try this for one year and see what happens:

Do you have a military problem? Are you being invaded by a superior force? We're not coming.

Are you broke? Can't feed your children? Ask someone else for money...we're not coming.

Do you actually secretly like Coke, McDonalds, US films and TV, dependable American vehicles and a part in the only really functional Space program? Well, you're going to have to move here to enjoy them, because we're no longer doing any overseas business or exportation anymore.

Want to move here to enjoy all those "excesses"? Sorry, we're closing our borders off for a while, just to catch our breaths.

Want to threaten us by cutting off oil supplies? Too bad, because contrary to popular belief, we do have oil and enough nuclear power if we really needed it...and with our backs against the wall, we have faith in our ingenuity and wherewithall to create new sources if it meant survival without political games.

Can you imagine a world like this?

I know there are arguements to the above, so please don't clutter this thread with an answer to every issue. It was just a hypothetical statement to make a point. I grow weary of our country being both rescuer and scapegoat at every turn.

Also, this isn't a case of "9/11 patriotism". I've made the point before that I'm getting a bit tired of that being used an excuse for everything, but that's another issue. It's just a matter of pride in our ideals in their truest form. Yes, our government bastardizes this, but so does every government...that's politics. Your average American has been raised proudly under the flag of caring, giving, inclusiveness and fairness; that's what we're really all about if you get right down to where the cheese binds.

I'm not saying that we should eschew all global resposibility, because given my above "what-ifs", you'll realize that they're just fantasy. We will continue to help, continue to give and continue to take in...even to our detriment, because that's the way we are when it comes right down to it.

What really struck this home for me was a picture in the Globe and Mail the day after the 9/11 tragedy: A group of hard-line Muslims cheering the attacks. The story was about how even the children were celebrating. There were adult men and young boys holding up rifles and celebrating...

...while one was wearing a Chicago Bears T-shirt, another sported a WWF hat, and two children held a Coke. I also have a hard time believeing that the jeans most of them were wearing (not fatigues, but jeans) came from Khazahkstan.

God, are we evil or what?
 
*Applause*

Can I be on your campaign staff? *grin* You need a good solid Libertarian to help offset your Democratic tendencies. 🙂
 
i don't know dave...

...you're sounding very conservative to me!
welcome to my world, lol
steve
 
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