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Can A Hurricane Be Controlled Safely

Thank you, tickledgirl -- yes, not _just_ opaque. Shiny too, eh? Like foil? Yeah, we used gold foil on lunar landings... That seemed to work okay... Hmm.

Here's a question: How long would it take to reduce the temperature over the necessary expanse of ocean? For a collapsible shade, it would reduce its overall profile, making it less susceptible to damage.

I like tickledgirl for her smarts and she proposes some interesting obstacles. Granted, seeing as how building a giant solar shield will never be as easy as telling people in the path of a storm, "MOVE!", it'll never be done. But it's fun to brainstorm nonetheless.

Now, TG, can you turn that brain of yours around and come up with some innovative solutions or proposals to your own obstacles? Brainstorming is much more useful when all ideas are out on the table, and when people come back and criticize later. So, have you any ideas for the parameters of our problem, or only criticism? I know there must be a constructive bone in that body somewhere... 🙂

C'mon -- we're not NASA, so even if you oppose the idea, it'll never get off the ground. We're just having fun here, tossing out theories. You sound like you might be a good one to hear from on the "what's possible" side rather than from just the "what's impossible" side... Come on in! The water's... ...well, the water's just about hurricane temperature! 😀
 
Capnmad said:
Thank you, tickledgirl -- yes, not _just_ opaque. Shiny too, eh? Like foil? Yeah, we used gold foil on lunar landings... That seemed to work okay... Hmm.

Here's a question: How long would it take to reduce the temperature over the necessary expanse of ocean? For a collapsible shade, it would reduce its overall profile, making it less susceptible to damage.

I like tickledgirl for her smarts and she proposes some interesting obstacles. Granted, seeing as how building a giant solar shield will never be as easy as telling people in the path of a storm, "MOVE!", it'll never be done. But it's fun to brainstorm nonetheless.

Now, TG, can you turn that brain of yours around and come up with some innovative solutions or proposals to your own obstacles? Brainstorming is much more useful when all ideas are out on the table, and when people come back and criticize later. So, have you any ideas for the parameters of our problem, or only criticism? I know there must be a constructive bone in that body somewhere... 🙂

C'mon -- we're not NASA, so even if you oppose the idea, it'll never get off the ground. We're just having fun here, tossing out theories. You sound like you might be a good one to hear from on the "what's possible" side rather than from just the "what's impossible" side... Come on in! The water's... ...well, the water's just about hurricane temperature! 😀

Awww...but it's so much easier just to shoot down other people's ideas! I think the most important thing you posted is that it's amazingly more cost effective to move people away from hurricanes. But that's boring.

Hmmm: How throwing ice into hurricanes to cool them down or disperse them? Or I seem to remember a SF story where they mined ice from...Mars? Titan? I read it a long time ago... Anyway, they shot it into Earth's atmosphere to dampen hurricanes. (John Barne's Mother of Storms, I think?)

FWIW, here's a link where this topic was discussed about a year ago.
 
I think that if the Enterprise maintained a geo-synchronous orbit and wrapped a low level warp field around the perimeter of the storm while simultanaously puncturing the the eye with a concatonated neutrino beam, following it up with a burst of Vertiron particles, and then finishing with a grand finale of a modified tachyon pulse.....Yeah, that would work.
 
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Liquid nitrogen is fairly cheap... So's dry ice. What if you line the coasts of every endangered city with large cannons and mortars designed to fire charges filled with either of these components? Both would evaporate fairly quickly, but may, in coordination with a series of larger liquid nitrogen charges dropped by plane, knock the thing down by a few degrees to weaken and stagger it before it hits shore...

I know you'd need a lot of them, but would the relative temperature differential impact the number? That is, wouldn't it be that the colder the substance is that you're sending in, the less of it is required?
 
If I remember right , Katrina was 750 miles wide at it's peak of power .........
 
Thank you to those who supported my brief moment of opinion there. My entire point lies not in our ability as scientists. Science has in fact given us many opportunities to contemplate ways in which we can alter our environment to suit ourselves.

The fact of the matter is that these natural "disasters" are how our planet works to repair itself. This fragile ecosystem has a way of replenishing itself and naturally occuring weather phenomenom are one of the many ways it accomplishes this. May it be hurricanes or wildfires... this has happened for more years than humans have been alive. Like TklDuo-Ann said... as long as we interfere with out planet repairing itself the more we may hurt one another.

I'm not trying to be political here... it's not my agenda. But thus far we have warped our surroundings to accomplish what we'd like. And our interference with the environment has been well documented.

We should all know the results.

Which brings to mind my argument... yes, the science is probably there. But we need to understand the consequences for our decisions. Our planet balances so carefully on the edge of nature. This is something not to be tampered with.
 
I appreciate everyone's take on this subject . It was something that came to mind one day and before I asked the question here I asked people I know . Honestly people mentioned the same thing about tampering and messing things up . I honestly would like to help us and this planet in any way I can , but I know it's not an easy task . I understand that hurricanes are a natural part of the earth's system , but I also understand that we built right in it's path . What are people to do if they get worse and more intence . Lives will be lost , billions of dollars in property damage . Are people to stay and just let it keep happening ,or are they to move away , what are they to do . I believe the idea presented from the beginning is sound but like all new ideas it will need to be researched and safely tested . Every angle must be looked at and every flaw found worked out .......... I want to say again that all your thoughts are what is needed for something like this .......Thanks
 
The Long Island Express

Info on historic hurricane that struck New England in 1938 and current NASA research

As my genetic insomnia so often dictates, I woke up after <2 hours sleep and started channel surfing. This led me to the History Channel about 12:25 a.m. for the last 35 minutes of their second nightly broadcast of "Nature's Fury: New England's Killer Hurricane," a 2006 documentary about a devastating hurricane in 1938. I'd not heard about this storm previously, so I spent the next 5 hours or so online trying to find out more. Did, including that our local library has NO books about it, even though several have been written! Anyway, because there are several New Englanders and, particularly, New Yorkers on this forum, I thought y'all might like to check into this storm because with the current weather system we're in (I forget, El Nino or La Nina?), a similar storm could happen within the next few years, including this one. Because of the population increase in these areas, the results would be more devastating than in 1938. Below is a summary of all I've read the last few hours (and hopefully regurgitated correctly!) from many sites, some of which offered conflicting information.

This storm began as a wind shift over the Sahara Desert on 4 Sept 1938, which passed over the West African coast and became a tropical storm near the Cape Verde Islands about 10 September. It picked up speed and moved west into the Atlantic, reaching hurricane status (74 mph) by 16 September and at some point reaching category 5 status. It seemed headed for Florida and they braced, but the storm passed and headed north toward Cape Hatteras, NC, which it also bypassed. All but one person at the Washington, D.C., Weather Bureau (a junior member named Charles Pierce), discounted history and other weather patterns and assumed the storm would continue to head northeast and die out. They were wrong. Pierce alone looked at all contributing factors and correctly predicted the storm would head north. As said, he was over-ruled and the New England coast got only gale warnings, which were not unusual and somewhat ignored.

The storm was noted off the coast of Cape Hatteras about 9 a.m., 21 Sept 1938. A high on one side of the storm kept it on its northward path; a low on the other side fueled it, allowing it to travel at between 50 and 70 mph over land, a somewhat unusual but not unknown occurrence. By 1 p.m. it was east of Atlantic City, NJ, where it ripped up part of the Boardwalk. By 2:30 p.m., the now-category 3 storm with an eye estimated to be 50 miles wide made landfall along the south shore of Long Island, NY.

Storms weren't named in those days but because of where this one initially struck it's been dubbed (among other things) the Long Island Express. By 3:30 p.m., the Rhode Island coast, particularly Providence, was getting the worst of the storm because they were on it's eastern (dirty) side. The storm wreaked havoc on New York and New England coastal areas, which had had lots of rain in the two weeks preceding it, so the ground was already saturated. In addition, the storm struck these areas at high tide at the fall equinox. Storm surge was massive and destructive. As it traveled, the hurricane lost force, downgrading to category 1 level by the time it reached Maine. By about 9 p.m., it had reached Montreal, Canada, and the cold air finished it off.

From the time it hit Long Island, the storm's winds were any where between 50 and 100 mph with gusts ranging up to 186 mph at one point (as registered in Boston, MA). Up to 700 people were killed (mostly owing to storm surge), around 2000 more injured. Thousands of homes, businesses, boats, etc., were destroyed or damaged. Power and telephone lines and poles were downed, railroad tracks destroyed, and thousands of trees lost. The storm effected at least eight States: New York, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Vermont, and Maine. At least one good thing came out of this destruction: all the clean up and rebuilding provided much needed jobs to those effected by it and by the Great Depression.

A Google search brought up several sites concerning the storm. Unusually, I thought, the Wikipedia entry was not only unhelpful but questionable, so I'm not including a link for it. The links below are for sites I thought provided good information in general and/or for particular areas affected by the storm. The best, and one recommended on other sites is the first and was put up by Mandia A. Scott, professor of Physical Sciences, at State University of New York (SUNY) at Suffolk. New Yorkers might want to pay attention to Section VII, just in case.
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/38hurricane/index.html

Part of PBS' American Experience series, the following PBS site provided a really good summary (some of which I've recapped) of the life of the storm: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/hurricane38/maps/index.html

Wayne Cotterly’s 2002 site provides additional information on the storm and its travels: http://www.pivot.net/~cotterly/1938.htm

View from Providence includes pictures: http://www.southstation.org/hurr1.htm

As an aside to the above, but in line with previous discussion on this thread, I found an article on USA Today Online that apparently was put up on Sunday and updated Monday. Some of you may already have seen it. It talks about a NASA-backed study being conducted in Africa, dubbed the NAMMA: NASA African Monsoon Multidisciplinary Analyses. They're trying to figure out how and why 95% of storms die and 5% become hurricanes:
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/research/2006-08-28-africa-storm-radar_x.htm

Okay, that's it. I'm not editing anymore. Please forgive any remaining mistakes.
 
Not sure where I read this, but I saw something that said hurricanes tend to travel much more quickly as they move north (i.e. towards New England). Storyteller's timeline seems to bear this out. It took only 12 hours to go from Cape Hatteras to Montreal? That's moving!

That would mean much less warning, and much less time to evactuate... Scary stuff!
 
Capnmad said:
Liquid nitrogen is fairly cheap... So's dry ice. What if you line the coasts of every endangered city with large cannons and mortars designed to fire charges filled with either of these components? Both would evaporate fairly quickly, but may, in coordination with a series of larger liquid nitrogen charges dropped by plane, knock the thing down by a few degrees to weaken and stagger it before it hits shore...

I know you'd need a lot of them, but would the relative temperature differential impact the number? That is, wouldn't it be that the colder the substance is that you're sending in, the less of it is required?
Yes, the colder the substance the less would be required. However liquid nitrogen wouldn't stay liquid out of a container for more than a minute or two, and if it was in containers small enough to launch then you'd have tens or hundreds of thousands of containers to clean up afterward.

Danny, yes, Katrina was only about 750 miles across. That's about 1200 square miles. Assuming that you only needed to cool, say, the uppermost 50 feet of the ocean, that's about 1.6 trillion cubic feet of seawater. In fact, though, you'd need to cool a lot more than that, because Katrina didn't absorb energy only from the water she was sitting on at any given moment. She contained the energy taken from all the water she had passed over in her development, and probably went a lot more than 50 feet down.

But if we go with a conservative estimate of 1.6 trillion cubic feet of water, it will take about 375 billion tons of dry ice to lower the temperature of that water by one degree. That's somewhat more than the entire annual US production.

It doesn't seem very feasible, but if it were then I'm not sure what the weather consequences would be of lowering the water temperature over such an area. You might not get a hurricane, but that doesn't mean that you'd like what you did get.
 
Redmage said:
Yes, the colder the substance the less would be required. However liquid nitrogen wouldn't stay liquid out of a container for more than a minute or two, and if it was in containers small enough to launch then you'd have tens or hundreds of thousands of containers to clean up afterward.

Danny, yes, Katrina was only about 750 miles across. That's about 1200 square miles. Assuming that you only needed to cool, say, the uppermost 50 feet of the ocean, that's about 1.6 trillion cubic feet of seawater. In fact, though, you'd need to cool a lot more than that, because Katrina didn't absorb energy only from the water she was sitting on at any given moment. She contained the energy taken from all the water she had passed over in her development, and probably went a lot more than 50 feet down.

But if we go with a conservative estimate of 1.6 trillion cubic feet of water, it will take about 375 billion tons of dry ice to lower the temperature of that water by one degree. That's somewhat more than the entire annual US production.

It doesn't seem very feasible, but if it were then I'm not sure what the weather consequences would be of lowering the water temperature over such an area. You might not get a hurricane, but that doesn't mean that you'd like what you did get.

Pesky naysayer! :rotate: Why not just mine a comet for the ice? :smilestar
 
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