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Complete Military History Of France
- Thread starter Neutron
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red indian
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Sorry Strell..........
......my mistake, but your mention of the falklands war raises an interesting point, American support for the U.K. on that occasion was not forthcoming for a very long time, in fact there was no support for us at all to start with, and when it finally came it was luke warm and some what grudgingly conceded.
......my mistake, but your mention of the falklands war raises an interesting point, American support for the U.K. on that occasion was not forthcoming for a very long time, in fact there was no support for us at all to start with, and when it finally came it was luke warm and some what grudgingly conceded.
ShiningIce
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What about the fearsome cod war of the 70's between Britain and Iceland? 🙂
Neutron
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Outside..
The US Designed Harriers, Missiles, Submarines the Brits used, AND the US built torpedo they used to sink the Belgrano I guess you can say the US didn't support the Brits one bit. OH and let us not forget the TWO US Carrier Battle Groups which effectively kept the Argentinan Navy in check. AH and did I forget to mention the ECM Countermeasures the US Backfitted to the Brit ships after the Argentinian Exocets turned a few British Frigates into so much melted metal? Guess outside of winning that little pissant contest for the Brits we didn't support them much.
After the war when the head Admiral of the Argentina Fleet was asked why he didn't use his aircraft carrier force to confront the Brits his exact words were
"The US would have sunk her and her consorts"
Odd he never mentioned the British Navy once.
Tron
The US Designed Harriers, Missiles, Submarines the Brits used, AND the US built torpedo they used to sink the Belgrano I guess you can say the US didn't support the Brits one bit. OH and let us not forget the TWO US Carrier Battle Groups which effectively kept the Argentinan Navy in check. AH and did I forget to mention the ECM Countermeasures the US Backfitted to the Brit ships after the Argentinian Exocets turned a few British Frigates into so much melted metal? Guess outside of winning that little pissant contest for the Brits we didn't support them much.
After the war when the head Admiral of the Argentina Fleet was asked why he didn't use his aircraft carrier force to confront the Brits his exact words were
"The US would have sunk her and her consorts"
Odd he never mentioned the British Navy once.
Tron
tickled_a_lot
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I have to say that I appreciate the British. It's not always easy for them to stand by the United States, as it often isolates them from much of Europe.
red indian
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Poor old Tronny.........
.....you just dont read too well do you? I hope you can read all those dials and switches on that Nuclear arsenal you reckon you control better than you do my posts.My post says that U.S support was luke warm and grudgingly offered at the last minute. Which bit of that last sentance dont you understand? I can spread it out and write it bigger if you like.
I see you have also taken to re writing Aviation history, so, the Harrier jump jet was an American design was it? and here I am thinking it was a British invention, later built under licence in America!!! where do I get these fanciful notions!!!
Your re writes of American military history are also very interesting, I have heard some feeble excuses for defeat, but to say you were "tired of fighting" just about takes the biscuit! that has to be up there in the hall of fame for excuses, alongside Emperor Hirohito,s legendary " ...the war has ended in a manner not neccesarily to our advantage..."
Lets look at some of your other drivel:-
My point about mentioning the "Battle of the Nile" and "Trafalgar" was that it seemed very odd that you of all people would miss them out, (I take it you have heard of these famous sea battles?) especially as you single out Wellington and Malbrough, but miss out Nelson who,s role was just as important. Nelson is a well known sailor in case you were wondering.
So you reckon the french "fought like studs" in the battle of france in WW2!!! where is that quote from? General Degaulle,s memoirs? the french army was beat before it started, and whats this re write about the B.E.F,s "cowardly retreat"? that must be General Gamelins diaries! the B.E.F was under French command as were the Belgians, the French called the shots untill close to the end, and what happened at the end? the B.E.F. had the Belgians on their left flank, and the French on their right, the Belgians surrendered and the French ran for it. This left us in an increasingly stretched out salient, dangerously close to encirclement, leaving us no option other than withdrawl to Dunkirk. The French were asked to join us in this escape, but chose to dither and prevaricate, and became encircled, this is not how you form a reargaurd, there was no French rearguard for the B.E.F. Given your low opinion of the French army, what makes you fly off with this "alice in wonderland" notion of a gallant rearguard for the B.E.F.?
The B.E.F. mounted its own rearguard wich was evacuated on the night of 2 june. Given your sudden outburst of pride in the fighting qualities of the French army, why was the other half of their army which was not encircled, elbowing its way on to British destroyers?
The impressive French resistance in north africa is well documented, I cant see how you can dispute that, and while we are on the subject I would love to hear your re write of the U.S. perfomance on that occasion, even Ike said it was bad, but no doubt you know better than him!!
Lastly whats this tosh about us following the "line of least resistance" over Iraq? we are flying in the face of massive international pressure and european pressure to hold the opposite view to the one we now have, how is that a line of least resistance?
So, I think you know what you need to do Tronny, whats that phrase of yours? .....er....."Learn your history" ? well see if you can complete this one "those in glass houses........"
p.s. whats this rot about the Brits never surrendering? look up the fall of singapore WW2 and see what happened, or did we just get "tired of fighting"?
.....you just dont read too well do you? I hope you can read all those dials and switches on that Nuclear arsenal you reckon you control better than you do my posts.My post says that U.S support was luke warm and grudgingly offered at the last minute. Which bit of that last sentance dont you understand? I can spread it out and write it bigger if you like.
I see you have also taken to re writing Aviation history, so, the Harrier jump jet was an American design was it? and here I am thinking it was a British invention, later built under licence in America!!! where do I get these fanciful notions!!!
Your re writes of American military history are also very interesting, I have heard some feeble excuses for defeat, but to say you were "tired of fighting" just about takes the biscuit! that has to be up there in the hall of fame for excuses, alongside Emperor Hirohito,s legendary " ...the war has ended in a manner not neccesarily to our advantage..."
Lets look at some of your other drivel:-
My point about mentioning the "Battle of the Nile" and "Trafalgar" was that it seemed very odd that you of all people would miss them out, (I take it you have heard of these famous sea battles?) especially as you single out Wellington and Malbrough, but miss out Nelson who,s role was just as important. Nelson is a well known sailor in case you were wondering.
So you reckon the french "fought like studs" in the battle of france in WW2!!! where is that quote from? General Degaulle,s memoirs? the french army was beat before it started, and whats this re write about the B.E.F,s "cowardly retreat"? that must be General Gamelins diaries! the B.E.F was under French command as were the Belgians, the French called the shots untill close to the end, and what happened at the end? the B.E.F. had the Belgians on their left flank, and the French on their right, the Belgians surrendered and the French ran for it. This left us in an increasingly stretched out salient, dangerously close to encirclement, leaving us no option other than withdrawl to Dunkirk. The French were asked to join us in this escape, but chose to dither and prevaricate, and became encircled, this is not how you form a reargaurd, there was no French rearguard for the B.E.F. Given your low opinion of the French army, what makes you fly off with this "alice in wonderland" notion of a gallant rearguard for the B.E.F.?
The B.E.F. mounted its own rearguard wich was evacuated on the night of 2 june. Given your sudden outburst of pride in the fighting qualities of the French army, why was the other half of their army which was not encircled, elbowing its way on to British destroyers?
The impressive French resistance in north africa is well documented, I cant see how you can dispute that, and while we are on the subject I would love to hear your re write of the U.S. perfomance on that occasion, even Ike said it was bad, but no doubt you know better than him!!
Lastly whats this tosh about us following the "line of least resistance" over Iraq? we are flying in the face of massive international pressure and european pressure to hold the opposite view to the one we now have, how is that a line of least resistance?
So, I think you know what you need to do Tronny, whats that phrase of yours? .....er....."Learn your history" ? well see if you can complete this one "those in glass houses........"
p.s. whats this rot about the Brits never surrendering? look up the fall of singapore WW2 and see what happened, or did we just get "tired of fighting"?
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Dave2112
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Ok, I'm posting this after reading only the first few opening posts, and staying out of the in-thread fights that seem to have once again crawled out of the proverbial sewer.
For once, I actually agree with Tron. We may have had a few differences in the past, but it seems we share a mutual disdain for France. 😎
Ain't it funny...the things that bring people together?
For once, I actually agree with Tron. We may have had a few differences in the past, but it seems we share a mutual disdain for France. 😎
Ain't it funny...the things that bring people together?
red indian
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Hey dont worry dave!!!...........
.......Me and Tronny enjoy a good joust! I guess I have to wait for him to go to the reference library before he posts on this subject again!
.......Me and Tronny enjoy a good joust! I guess I have to wait for him to go to the reference library before he posts on this subject again!
Texas_Tickle
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milagros317 said:
That's not just France, that's basically **all** of Europe who want to be your allies, when **THEY** need help, but when we need help it's **we're too busy**
Dave2112
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...and just to agree with tickled-a-lot about the British. Yeah, there's a lot to be said and argued about concerning military histories, but there are few friends in Europe that we can count on as much as merry old England, even if they are still subjugating my people...he he he 😀
As an American with dual-citizenship (born Scot), I have a deep affinity for my brethren on the Isles, and would like to take a moment to thank you on the other side of the pond for sticking with us. Besides, you need us to at least teach you how to cook if nothing else. I love British society, but let's be real here...these people boil toast!
Cheerio! 😎
As an American with dual-citizenship (born Scot), I have a deep affinity for my brethren on the Isles, and would like to take a moment to thank you on the other side of the pond for sticking with us. Besides, you need us to at least teach you how to cook if nothing else. I love British society, but let's be real here...these people boil toast!
Cheerio! 😎
Every American forgets the War of 1812. Canada DID invade, and kicked much butt. Oddly, in school, it was glossed over, back in the day, in California. Here, in Canada, it's brought up often. Canada didn't get IN many wars, and so fare, ain't picked losin' sides.
Oh, and laughingly, Vietnam was "a Police Action." Apparantly, it ain't a war to us if we go in, lose thousands of dollars and hundreds of men, and don't get somethin' for it. War is a vengeance biz, and a profit biz, and the US didn't get much of either. Korea is now referred to in SOME books as a Police Action (the US DOES police the world, after all), but don't be dumb enough to tell that to the vets, 'cause them folk will not appreciate it.
Dunno what good purpose this thread is for. Insultin' nationalities? Stirring up apathy between nations? Don't see much health in them actions.
Never knew you're a Scot, Dave. I like ya even better, now. 😉
Oh, and laughingly, Vietnam was "a Police Action." Apparantly, it ain't a war to us if we go in, lose thousands of dollars and hundreds of men, and don't get somethin' for it. War is a vengeance biz, and a profit biz, and the US didn't get much of either. Korea is now referred to in SOME books as a Police Action (the US DOES police the world, after all), but don't be dumb enough to tell that to the vets, 'cause them folk will not appreciate it.
Dunno what good purpose this thread is for. Insultin' nationalities? Stirring up apathy between nations? Don't see much health in them actions.
Never knew you're a Scot, Dave. I like ya even better, now. 😉
D
Deleted member 2452
Guest
now, let's be accurate here
during the war of 1812 (funny it lasted till 1815) british troops invaded from canada, but not canadians, hell, canada was not a country then, only a province, or collony. another interesting feature of that war, it featured another lopsided american victory; the battle of new orleanes, krist, what a massaqure!
steve
during the war of 1812 (funny it lasted till 1815) british troops invaded from canada, but not canadians, hell, canada was not a country then, only a province, or collony. another interesting feature of that war, it featured another lopsided american victory; the battle of new orleanes, krist, what a massaqure!
steve
Yeah, that's what I thought. Oddly, it's chronicled differently in England, Canada, Australia...
Wars are always two-sided or worse. That's the point. One guy says this, and his opponent says that. They don't agree.
Some case, they can't.
Still think the concept o' this thread's an insult to so very many members, in a passive, weak way. England's got our back more than once, as has Canada, and we ain't fightin' Germany anymore. They're part of the solution these days, not the problem. Pissin' on old grievances has all the value of remindin' a friend of the time they screwed up, over and over. It makes for bad feelings. No gain from that, y'know?
Wars are always two-sided or worse. That's the point. One guy says this, and his opponent says that. They don't agree.
Some case, they can't.
Still think the concept o' this thread's an insult to so very many members, in a passive, weak way. England's got our back more than once, as has Canada, and we ain't fightin' Germany anymore. They're part of the solution these days, not the problem. Pissin' on old grievances has all the value of remindin' a friend of the time they screwed up, over and over. It makes for bad feelings. No gain from that, y'know?
Neutron
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I'm Fully Aware Of..
Who nelson was. A great admiral, although Collinwood probably had as much to do, if not more with Trafalgar as Nelson did. Oddly Nelsons establishment of maritime supremacy had much to do with Englands crappy Naval performance in WW1.
As for my info on Dunkirk, I got that from War At Sea by Nathan Miller A BRIT and acknowledged expert on Dunkirk. Churchill had to sacrifice a British regiment because the French were SO pissed because they were in fact fighting a delaying action while the Brits were running with their tails between their legs. As for getting any additional French off Dunkirk, the Brits were basically pulling guys off until they absolutley had to. There was no additional room or time to get anyone else off. ( A little known fact. Lytoller, a Titanic officer who gets a totally bad name from the movie was a genuine hero at Dunkirk AND after the Titanic sank. His story at Dunkirk is fascinating)
Now, I'm not anti anything. On a personal level I tend to like Brits, I love Germans and Russians, and I like FRenchman on an individual basis. HOWEVER in todays day and age WHAT these people think is irrelevant and they should accept it.
Sorry if this was sort of quick. I just had eye surgery Wednesday so being at a comp for any length of time is somewhat irritating!!
Tron
Who nelson was. A great admiral, although Collinwood probably had as much to do, if not more with Trafalgar as Nelson did. Oddly Nelsons establishment of maritime supremacy had much to do with Englands crappy Naval performance in WW1.
As for my info on Dunkirk, I got that from War At Sea by Nathan Miller A BRIT and acknowledged expert on Dunkirk. Churchill had to sacrifice a British regiment because the French were SO pissed because they were in fact fighting a delaying action while the Brits were running with their tails between their legs. As for getting any additional French off Dunkirk, the Brits were basically pulling guys off until they absolutley had to. There was no additional room or time to get anyone else off. ( A little known fact. Lytoller, a Titanic officer who gets a totally bad name from the movie was a genuine hero at Dunkirk AND after the Titanic sank. His story at Dunkirk is fascinating)
Now, I'm not anti anything. On a personal level I tend to like Brits, I love Germans and Russians, and I like FRenchman on an individual basis. HOWEVER in todays day and age WHAT these people think is irrelevant and they should accept it.
Sorry if this was sort of quick. I just had eye surgery Wednesday so being at a comp for any length of time is somewhat irritating!!
Tron
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red indian
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Shiver me Timbers!!!!!!!..........
......old Tronny is trying his best to aggree with me I think, or thats as close as he will get to it i think!
No arguments about your veiws regarding the British navy,s performance in WW1. Complacency and arrogance were the main problems, along with failing to capitalise on solid gold intelligence information.
My views on the nature of the collapse of our allies on both flanks during the battle of France still stand and indeed you do not question them. One of my principle scources of information is from a Frenchman called Liddle Hart who is also an expert if ever there was one. I notice you fail to answer my query about the 100,000 or so French men who piled on to British destroyers, and how they fit in to your rather unexpected admiration for the fighting qualities of the French army!
Perhaps the biggest irony of the whole dunkirk episode is that Britain mobilised an expeditionary force to save Poland after the Germans moved on Danzig and the "Polish corridor" the whole thing looks even more futile considering how far we got on the road to Poland!!!
All the best with your eye problem, hope my posts donr irritate them too much!
......old Tronny is trying his best to aggree with me I think, or thats as close as he will get to it i think!
No arguments about your veiws regarding the British navy,s performance in WW1. Complacency and arrogance were the main problems, along with failing to capitalise on solid gold intelligence information.
My views on the nature of the collapse of our allies on both flanks during the battle of France still stand and indeed you do not question them. One of my principle scources of information is from a Frenchman called Liddle Hart who is also an expert if ever there was one. I notice you fail to answer my query about the 100,000 or so French men who piled on to British destroyers, and how they fit in to your rather unexpected admiration for the fighting qualities of the French army!
Perhaps the biggest irony of the whole dunkirk episode is that Britain mobilised an expeditionary force to save Poland after the Germans moved on Danzig and the "Polish corridor" the whole thing looks even more futile considering how far we got on the road to Poland!!!
All the best with your eye problem, hope my posts donr irritate them too much!
Neutron
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Yes It Is Odd..
WW2 eventually started over Poland, and then one of the allies brutally subjugated her. Either way the war would have started eventually. The odd thing is the whole war the US was really pushing for the second European front because they were afraid the Russians would make a seperate peace with Germany and once that happened NO WAY would an invasion of the continent be possible.
And red indian.... My eyes aren't the part of my anatomy that you irritate, but thank you for your good wishes 🙂
Dave I thought you are a Canadian??
Tron
WW2 eventually started over Poland, and then one of the allies brutally subjugated her. Either way the war would have started eventually. The odd thing is the whole war the US was really pushing for the second European front because they were afraid the Russians would make a seperate peace with Germany and once that happened NO WAY would an invasion of the continent be possible.
And red indian.... My eyes aren't the part of my anatomy that you irritate, but thank you for your good wishes 🙂
Dave I thought you are a Canadian??
Tron
Dave2112
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Nope, not me. You might have picked up a stray thought from any of my other posts about working so near the Canadian border. I live within two miles of the land of Molson, Hockey and Rush. 😎
My nationality is the same as Christian Slater's breakfast...100% Pure Scotch. 😀
Hope your eyes are getting better. I had ocular surgery about a decade back, and it can be a real bitch, especially the recovery time and inconvenience. I wish you a quick recovery.
My nationality is the same as Christian Slater's breakfast...100% Pure Scotch. 😀
Hope your eyes are getting better. I had ocular surgery about a decade back, and it can be a real bitch, especially the recovery time and inconvenience. I wish you a quick recovery.
