Do men have a point anymore?

[Dude'sonfire]

I had a wierd thought just now and needed to share it for some random reason... And since its like past midnight i figured this was my safest bet.
...I just get this nagging feeling sometimes that us men don't really have a natural place in modern society. This has probably been put forward by hundreds of people already, but it was nagging my mind nonetheless.
I mean go back to a tribal scenario, when, due to higher infant mortality rates, far less reliable contraception, and just lower life expectancy in general, women spent a lot more of their time pregnant and spending time with their kids. This meant that they and their children were vulnerable and needed to be protected and provided for. Also is the fact that women are, essentially, the core of mankind, in the sense that humanity could exist with a comparitively tiny male population if it really needed to, and going to the tribal scenario again, this means that women were invaluable; a tribe with 200 men and 1 woman would die, whereas a tribe with 200 women and 1 man would, theoretically, survive. Women were something which needed to be protected and looked after at all costs. This was the role of the male: to hunt and farm, to defend against other men or against others tribes who wanted women/land/food for their own needs, dying in the process if need be, so that the givers of life could continue to do just that.
Compare this with a modern, westernised society. In Britain, most women dont have more than one or two kids; some have more, some have none, but generally, this is the case. And they dont tend to have them until compartively late in life: late twenties, early thirties. This means that they can provide for themselves for much of the time, going out doing a job and earning money. Also, due to the technology factor, society is much safer and more comfortable, for the average person at least (and remember im only really talking about westernised society here), and as such, the protector role of the male also goes out the window.
All in all, we dont really have a purpose anymore lol. I mean women could undoubtedly run things quite efficiently on their own, with some breeders set apart to provide sperm in a jar. You couldnt have said that six thousand years ago; humanity needed men in order to survive, becuase as i said, the constant need to maintain the population through mothering and childbirth made women vulnerable. I.e. We're, in this part of the world at least, almost completely obsolete.

lol sorry, went on a fair rant there. Not that i'm saying of course that modern society caters for every female instict, but this is just something that depresses me sometimes, heh.
Anyway, rant over. Ciao.

 

[Melissa666]

Well if it werent for men:
1. Thered be no NFL
2. Gilmore Girls might be the #1 show on TV...yeesh!
So men DO have a function after all! Take firm sperm bearers!!

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Alot of men and women are not self-actualized and thats part of the problem. They get different opinions of their place in the world when on an individual basis its up to them to decide who and what they are.

For procreation purposes, men can now be cut out completely, its only our sperm thats needed, if thats what you mean and thats what you attribute male usefullness to- breeding and providing a woman with the children she wants.

We're not obsolete however. Until women can have robots and cyborgs or can artificially tamper with their own genetics to breed super women, men are still needed in a wide variety of roles.

Men would only ever truely be obsolete if there was no love or compassion involved in the male/female relationship and for some reason all women wanted us to die so they could harvest our reproductive systems. This would go vice-versa just as much. Ultimately I don't think women or men would want the other gone because the other fufills a need for bonding and companionship as created by nature, God, etc.

The two are vital to oneanother, but not physically necessary.

With technology comes bastardizations of life and the assumption to play the role of gods. What we choose to believe and do when we are capable of more than we were, any time we make evolutionary strides, we either forefeit our humanity little by little or we stand resolute in it.

Case in point:

You don't need to worry about something this radical. Both genders fufill the needs of the other, both physically, emotionally, sexually, mentally and spiritually. Not necessarily in that order.

To think in such an extreme point of view that one would have the other completely annihilated out of hate, disgust, spite and evil is ridiculous.

Its really about knowing your possible roles in life and choose one for yourself, and in having/finding a partner being compatible with them if you so wish. Every relationship needs some traditional values to it for balance, but the stability of the relationship is more important than who serves what role at what time. Human nature puts women under the need of protection because they are the vessals of life. Women need less and less protection the less intimate and personal their relationships are. With men, with women like that, its less and less necessary to devote themselves wholely.

It really does depend what type of relationship you have with one another and what stage of evolution it's at. If its just the typical boyfriend/girlfriend then thats one thing. Its another when you bring life into the world however, are married, and hold those vows with the honor they deserve.

Marriage and having children is not a jail sentence however, nor does it put a shackle around anyone's neck and forces them away from a life they cannot have. All it means is for a time the natural order of things will see men in one role and women in another. After this period a couple is free to go on with their lives as they planned or at least try to taking into consideration their new family.

People that don't want the responsibilities of children shouldn't have them. And people who are responsible who do want children need to be ready to undergo an additional role, that of parent.

The more and more commitment there is to life in a personal way, including others, the more and more naturally both sexes "have a point" as you put it.

Its about self-actualization, discovering yourself and applying that to the world you live in. You have just as much a point to your existance as you allow yourself to have. This is why religious people are often very family orriented and love involving themselves with others. They realize the hidden value of human company and cooperation. They realize everyone has a point and common goal.

When you look at it through that kind of perspective, its not about gender or sex. Everyone has a value.

 

[Yet_One_More_Idiot]

I've been thinking about this too. Now, scientists are almost at the stage of being able to artificially conceive children from same-sex couples, by either fertilising a genetically blank egg with the genetic info from two men's sperm, or by inserting the information from one woman's egg into the other's.

Great for homosexual couples, bad for men in the long run though. Think about it.

By a man and a woman, the chances are 50/50 of conceiving a son or a daughter. From two women (each XX), the only outcome is a daughter. From two men (each XY), there is still a 50% of a daughter, but only a 25% chance of a son (and a 25% chance of a YY - whatever the fudge that represents). So, gay couples having children would tend to increase the ratio of women to men in the world...in the most extreme scenario, this could lead to the eventual extinction of men - scary thought....

 

[Dude'sonfire]

Hey Vlad. lol This forum can always count on you for an interesting reply.
I never meant to say that women would voluntarily get rid of us; i'm sorry if that's how it came across. I just meant that there's a nagging feeling inside of me that says I as a man don't have a fundamental value on a social level. I guess what i'm saying is that i dont like the way modern life seperates us so much from out insticts. I love certain people, and they love me sure, and i do take meaning and appreciation from those relationships, but it certainly doesnt quell the chattering by any means lol.
I dont know, ha maybe i'm just a restless person in general and that it has nothing to do with modernity. Food for thought though.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ koopacooper-


Checks and balances.

Even if down the line more and more homosexuals have these procedures done on them the ammount of straight people having normal (and yes you can call this normally actually, since theres no need to fiddle around with human nature this way) relationships and bearing children natually or through artificial means will keep things in check.

All you're really talking about then is where the children are coming from. It wouldn't cause the extinction of men at all, all it would do is allow more people to have children when its not physically possible otherwise.

It would sooner be a population problem than a male one.

Its like in China, families are legally only allowed to have so many children within given times because of the population problem. The Chinese government doesn't necessarily care WHERE these children are coming from or HOW, but that they are regulated.

America would sooner face this problem than male extinction because of this issue.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Hey Vlad. lol This forum can always count on you for an interesting reply.
I never meant to say that women would voluntarily get rid of us; i'm sorry if that's how it came across. I just meant that there's a nagging feeling inside of me that says I as a man don't have a fundamental value on a social level. I guess what i'm saying is that i dont like the way modern life seperates us so much from out insticts. I love certain people, and they love me sure, and i do take meaning and appreciation from those relationships, but it certainly doesnt quell the chattering by any means lol.
I dont know, ha maybe i'm just a restless person in general and that it has nothing to do with modernity. Food for thought though.

Thanks. 🙂

And I'm not saying you feel that way either. I'm just saying maybe you're like some people who are not self-actualized. From your response I can tell it seems you have had a falling out with society in general. When things like this happen one gets to thinking they work and exist outside of nature and so rebuild their personal value based on that, when the truth is they are no more useless or needed than they were before.

The illusion of self-value based on current situations is often a trickey one, but it all boils down to you really and how you feel and think about yourself in the world we share.

If you feel the natural order of things may be off for you, perhaps they are, but that hasn't diminished your value at all. You're just as necessary, granted and filled with purpose as you always were as a man and any role you will take later in life. 🙂

Different stages of life will invoke different feelings obviously, different opinions and all build off of eachother through life experiences and troubles.

Where you are in the end though, as a man, isn't necessarily determined by your personal value of the male or female gender, but rather your involvement and personal life decisions and personal involvement with others. Its the same with women. Its not really about gender.

The different and multifaceted roles of men and women will not change because its not in human nature for these changes to occur to the point where they are eliminated in some regard, certain values and purposes.

They will not be subserviant to a new genetic law or technology. Thats only a means to an end for some people to have what they cannot.

It doesn't change society or the value of either gender, it just creates another way for different people to live.

 

[Dude'sonfire]

Heh well vlad you're obviously a far more optimistic person than I. Oh and forgot to say, Melissa666... lmao! heh 😛

 

[AphxA1]

Im not sure but this thread may be about personal gratification. Do you feel insignificant in any way dude scotfire? Im a fair person. Men and woman both deserve equal opportunity in society.

 

[Dude'sonfire]

I dont feel insignificant no, it's as i said in my second post, I dont like the way that the modern suburban world seperates us so much from our insticts. I did't mean to sound like i was for sexual inequality at all; I particularly loath violence against women. I guess i just quite like the idea of women being more fragile and needing to be protected and provided for lol. It's a role i would be honored to take, and I just feel that the sheer level of comfort and the smudging of personal roles in our present culture represses the instict that i have.

Arg! i dont know. lol, ignore me.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

It seems to me that the sub issue is with feeling adequate as a man given the responsibilties you may or may not have in modern society. It seems you feel there would be more to show otherwise.

Times are different though. Its ok to be this way. We don't live in an era anymore where man's masculinity, power, resolve or determination has to be shown through brute force or strength. Its there and we use it when we want/have to. A man isn't definded by his ability to crush someone or put on physical displays or protect other people even. Those are just things a man can DO, but they do not define him. This is often a problem, as it leads to stereotypes about men being shallow and that if you're smart and sophisticated you must be a nerd and weak, if you're a jock you must be strong and stupid, and if you're handsome you must be full of yourself because you care what you look like.

Inner strength is far more important in today's world than it was a long time ago. Strength of will will get you farther these days than strength of arms.

In the same way, women aren't defined by how beautiful, meek and dainty they are. Thats also a stereotype of today's woman. They look innocent and weak enough, so they MUST (sarcastic) need us to put on petty displays for them to show our so called manliness.

None of these things are who we really are as people and its hardly getting to the heart of the matter.

 

[Goodieluver]

according to genetics, men will be gone from the earth in like 900 generations, stupid me i forget which chromosome we are but every generation the chromosome gets shorter and some scientists state that eventually it may dissipate into oblivion

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Thats a huge "may". Now this is an instance where science is more useful with less controversy. The reasons these break downs are happening are not natural or some kind of natural selection. Alot of it has to do with how we live and take care of ourselves and what the state of our genetics are when we pass them down to the next generation. Because men perpetuate the bloodline and not the women (though women do pass down the mitochondria), break downs occur when a new strand of genetics is weaker, but more abdundant than the older ones, and cycles through.

Genetically it creates a gap and that causes the life expectancy of a man to drop slightly with each generation.

The "cure" so to speak is in replicating healthy DNA (etc) and giving men injections and other forms of treatment. It won't solve the problem, but if men create an immunity and reenforcement in their bodies they, in theory, shouldn't pass down the defects and deficiencies to their male children.

Alot of men are stubborn and don't take vitamins and suppliments. They think whatever ammount of exercising is all they have to do to be completely fit. While they may be externally, internally their immune systems are more vulnerable to disease and cellular death because of the lack of proper elemental nutrients. They need to take more vitamins, because often times their bodies are not getting the true nutrients they need.

Another possible theory is that alot of men don't start taking care of themselves until they're seniors. Thats a lifetimes worth of inadequate care for your body. Just like any young person, they feel fine now and bounce back quickly from illness and can go that extra mile now, but internally they're committing suicide. And they pass whatever defects they've accumulated down to their children. All they can do is pray and hope their children are not effected by it, or it skips future generations as each male takes better care of himself thereafter and makes up, genetically, for the irresponsibilities of the forefather.

 

[alchemy1]

Yep...it's good to be a guy

Alright folks, personally, I love being a guy. There are some mornings that I wake up and say "G**damn it's good to be a guy." Anywho...

As far the usefullness of men go Dude'sonfire, you're overlooking a few things. Do you realize that we are highly evolved, supersonic, deadly accurate, spider squishing machines?! How many times have you heard "Oh my god, KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT!" Yeah buddy, that's where we come in! I mean, we may not be slaying dragons anymore...or defending our women from hostile tribes...or sabertooth tigers, but when was the last time you saw any of these losers walking around? That's right! Ya didn't! You know why? Cause WE got 'em! So what's left for us to defend our women from...well, besides other guys? Yep...spiders. And hear this you aggravating arachnids, as longs as there are spiders on this earth, there'll be men with rolled up newspapers...be afriad.

Or how about this? Say you're in bed with your lady...and then suddenly you both hear a "Thud" downstairs. Does she get up a check it? Oh hell no. That's not even an option. It's our ass that gets up out of bed and stalks around downstairs...in our underwear....with a baseball bat. And you know what, we're proud to do it! Every guy that has done that thinks pretty much the same thing. You know, something along the lines of "Oh yeah, I'm HIM! I'm the mighty whale hunter from the artic north!" It's the testosterone man, we love to get the opportunity to hit things...especially if it's in defense our our woman.

So what's the score so far? Hmmm? Oh, I thinks it's:

MEN - 2
WORLD WITHOUT MEN - 0

You see where I'm going with this here? Come on Duder...you're a guy, a dude, a man....so grab a beer and be proud of it. 😎
Rock On!

 

[Yet_One_More_Idiot]

Alright folks, personally, I love being a guy. There are some mornings that I wake up and say "G**damn it's good to be a guy." Anywho...

As far the usefullness of men go Dude'sonfire, you're overlooking a few things. Do you realize that we are highly evolved, supersonic, deadly accurate, spider squishing machines?! How many times have you heard "Oh my god, KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT!" Yeah buddy, that's where we come in! I mean, we may not be slaying dragons anymore...or defending our women from hostile tribes...or sabertooth tigers, but when was the last time you saw any of these losers walking around? That's right! Ya didn't! You know why? Cause WE got 'em! So what's left for us to defend our women from...well, besides other guys? Yep...spiders. And hear this you aggravating arachnids, as longs as there are spiders on this earth, there'll be men with rolled up newspapers...be afriad.

Yes, I've often heard the phrase "O my god, spider - kill it kill it kill it!". I'm the one in my family who says it. 🙂

 

[-Kunoke-]

I dont feel insignificant no, it's as i said in my second post, I dont like the way that the modern suburban world seperates us so much from our insticts. I did't mean to sound like i was for sexual inequality at all; I particularly loath violence against women. I guess i just quite like the idea of women being more fragile and needing to be protected and provided for lol. It's a role i would be honored to take, and I just feel that the sheer level of comfort and the smudging of personal roles in our present culture represses the instict that i have.

Arg! i dont know. lol, ignore me.

I think I kind of feel like you that way. Some people feel that women should just stay home, keep house, and take care of the kids while men bring home the bacon. I think women should be protected and pampered and men should submit to a women's needs a little more. Not because women are "fragile" (and believe me, some arn't), but because they deserve respect that they don't always get. Not to say that men should just back down. Both sides should do the same for each other. Besides that, there are women who would rather work and stuff, and hey, it's cool, I'm not saying I think women should just lay around all day while the men work. 😛

I guess what I'm trying to say is, when it comes to me and women, I put their needs and their wants before my own. I'm the kind of guy who would just give his wife a foot massage after a hard day at work, EVEN if I didn't have a foot fetish to begin with. You don't even have to ask. 😛 It's surprising how many men arn't even willing to do THAT. And it's such a small thing to do. For shame. :sad:

 

[-Kunoke-]

Alright folks, personally, I love being a guy. There are some mornings that I wake up and say "G**damn it's good to be a guy." Anywho...

As far the usefullness of men go Dude'sonfire, you're overlooking a few things. Do you realize that we are highly evolved, supersonic, deadly accurate, spider squishing machines?! How many times have you heard "Oh my god, KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT!" Yeah buddy, that's where we come in! I mean, we may not be slaying dragons anymore...or defending our women from hostile tribes...or sabertooth tigers, but when was the last time you saw any of these losers walking around? That's right! Ya didn't! You know why? Cause WE got 'em! So what's left for us to defend our women from...well, besides other guys? Yep...spiders. And hear this you aggravating arachnids, as longs as there are spiders on this earth, there'll be men with rolled up newspapers...be afriad.

Or how about this? Say you're in bed with your lady...and then suddenly you both hear a "Thud" downstairs. Does she get up a check it? Oh hell no. That's not even an option. It's our ass that gets up out of bed and stalks around downstairs...in our underwear....with a baseball bat. And you know what, we're proud to do it! Every guy that has done that thinks pretty much the same thing. You know, something along the lines of "Oh yeah, I'm HIM! I'm the mighty whale hunter from the artic north!" It's the testosterone man, we love to get the opportunity to hit things...especially if it's in defense our our woman.

So what's the score so far? Hmmm? Oh, I thinks it's:

MEN - 2
WORLD WITHOUT MEN - 0

You see where I'm going with this here? Come on Duder...you're a guy, a dude, a man....so grab a beer and be proud of it. 😎
Rock On!

Now that's how I feel. 😎 I'm glad to be the man I am.

 

[aenglish]

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/e-sermons/scum.html

 

[Dude'sonfire]

Here is a quote from that link:

"Sexuality: Sex is not part of a relationship; on the contrary, it is a solitary experience, non-creative, a gross waste of time. The female can easily--far more easily than she may think--condition away her sex drive, leaving her completely cool and cerebral and free to pursue truly worthy relationships and activities.
Sex is the refuge of the mindless. And the more mindless the woman, the more deeply embedded in the male "culture", in short, the nicer she is, the more sexual she is. The nicest women in our "society" are raving sex maniacs"

Now, a question for the ladies on the forum... Would it be fair to say that this woman clearly isnt getting any? lol

 

[MistressValerie1]

Here is a quote from that link:

"Sexuality: Sex is not part of a relationship; on the contrary, it is a solitary experience, non-creative, a gross waste of time. The female can easily--far more easily than she may think--condition away her sex drive, leaving her completely cool and cerebral and free to pursue truly worthy relationships and activities.
Sex is the refuge of the mindless. And the more mindless the woman, the more deeply embedded in the male "culture", in short, the nicer she is, the more sexual she is. The nicest women in our "society" are raving sex maniacs"

Now, a question for the ladies on the forum... Would it be fair to say that this woman clearly isnt getting any? lol

I think she's just nuts, lol.

Almost all living things have two sexes, male and female. Nature clearly prefers organisms that have two sexes, so this bifurcation obviously must serve a purpose, even if science cannot yet completely explain it.

In spiritual terms, men's stronger Yang complements women's stronger Yin. Both types of energy are needed to maintain balance. If men did become "extinct," the human race as we know it would cease to exist.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

To be more accurate, women could exist on their own, but would self-implode as a society and race eventually. They can't very well sin against nature any more than men can and get away with it.

 

[MistressValerie1]

To be more accurate, women could exist on their own, but would self-implode as a society and race eventually. They can't very well sin against nature any more than men can and get away with it.

More accurate than my original statement "If men did become "extinct," the human race as we know it would cease to exist"? You said the same thing that I did, just in slightly different words, lol.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I should have said "in other words". My bad, you're right.

I seem distracted these days.

 

[Goodieluver]

Men good, men stay, men live....grrrrr

 

[Darth Vegeta]

As usual i agree with Dracula. Glad to see there are conservatives too in this world.
Oo;
Personally it is in theory possible to remove men... but like with cloning it would limit first of all certain genetic traits. And though in theory women would be able to keep the society rolling it would be seriously handycapped. It's scientifically proven that men and women are different in several radical ways one of the most important ones is psychology/mindset and the way our brain works. Men are better in certain areas than women and vice versa. Also men have more musclemass (but need more food to keep the engine going) In a lot of ways they designed to complement each other.
Removing one could have dire consequences. And when using only the 'sperm' of certain males or other ways to artificially create men without men around might result in a (Forgot the English word for it... . Nobility ones had the problem because of marrying within the same family over and over again...) of the genepool.
It would actually have a very bad effect on it I think.

Besides for every radical feminist or individualist loner cursing men, I'm sure there are many more women who do not think we should be removed or are 'unnecessary'. Is as absurd as a society without women.
(shivers at the prospect)

Psychology however has studied the phenomenon men are going through in society. What we lack is a revolution like women had post feminism. They more or less established themselves in society with a new look on things.
Men however are stuck between the past... and that which some people would make of them... basically woman in a male body (to put it simply off course. It's more complex than that).
Men need to find a new path in postmodern society where the old structures and hierarchy is gone. According to the theory they need to accept their 'primal' side that was dominant in the distant past while trying to evolve further into something 'new'.
Than again psychologists tend to lack nuance at times.

A lot of men do feel threatened by women for many reasons. Not just financially but socially too. And i don't just mean regarding the positions at work or salaries and things like that but genuinely threatened. RADICAL feminism has left a bad aftertaste in the collective mind off many men. They feel like women want them 'removed' or 'cast asside' etc. Or are collectively traumatized. Kinda like 'we're a bunch of rude savages who enslave women'.

It's actually kinda funny. Most women have found their place in society. Have adapted mild feminism without going outrageously bonkers. Have more or less achieved their goals. (yes yes their are still inequalities etc but compared to where women come from) And basically aren't actually all that 'offensive' anymore.
(As always after revolution becomes the achievement of goals and than the 'settling down', the need to go further diminishes.).
Men however have been left on unstable ground and are wondering where the hell do we stand in this new postmodern society with radically new values, goals and views.

The 'replacement' of men, the 'need' for men etc are part of a larger problem. Like Locke describes in his works. Liberalism, Socialism etc has created a new world but all Social Boarders for society and true complete uniformities of identity have dissapeared. And the only thing keeping everything together are remnants of old values. And now I'm going to shut up because i got so far from the original subject a lot of people are probably wondering what the hell I'm talking about.
I need to go sleep. Exams... (mutters)