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Faith vs. Science

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You're right.

However, it's kinda sad that the only thing people can agree on in here is that nothing should be talked about.

Now see I think we can talk about this kind of thing, we just need a great deal of ground rules in the topic prior to the actual debate. Because people have some very charged opinions, and un fortunatly there are trolls on this forum. We need more precautions for this type of thing, to keep it from getting out of hand.
 
I have to say, I'm with Nerrad here - to slap hardcore rules down would be terrible. Nobody is forced to argue passionately (okay, fine, flame) - even if they are a little heated, they still make for interesting discussions. Although until now I haven't replied, I read right through this thread earlier and it was genuinelly interesting.

Closing a topic or slapping down extra rules just because it isn't happy happy flowers and love is, IMO, a really bad idea. The pie thing is cool though.

Rules are for fools (and pools), not for... thread... ools! Warriors for Justice!!
 
ima read the other 5 pages... and then ima tell you'z all what i think. but, alas, as fun as this sounds arguing back in forth with someone on teh internetz i gotz to go out and chill with a RL friend. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
 
...even if they are a little heated, they still make for interesting discussions. Although until now I haven't replied, I read right through this thread earlier and it was genuinelly interesting.

Spot on. I don't care if people disagree. It's healthy. And the discussions are interesting. You can passionately disagree. Just don't be a condescending a-hole about it. I like when someone feels strongly and defends their position. At least that's conviction. We get a lot of "Well, I don't have anything to add, but I just want you to know you're an idiot for reasons I can't back up."

Anyway, thank you Senshi and the others who've messaged me about this. At this point, it's not about religion and science... it's about the nature of communication in here.
 
so, i read through the other 5 pages of crap. and my grand conclusion is im not quite sure what the argument was about in the first place.

what i did discover:
this is a spawn of journia, nerrad is christian, jt wtf his name was/is kinda a dick about treating other ppl like lower life forms for not accepting his "scientific naturalism" philosophy, dalekfire likes pie.
 
That's pretty much it. We don't know what kind of pie, though, but I'm sure the arguing will continue when we do.
 
And for RickTibbler - just like everyone has been goose-piling on others recently for the content, I'll say the same... there are thousands of other threads you can click on if this isn't of any interest to you. You came in voluntarily just to say you don't like it.

What's "goose-piling"? :umm:
 
You never goose-piled anyone? It's when everyone jumps on top of another person, literally.

Not that you care, but I have no beef with you. That may have read stronger than it was meant. Peace.
 
That's pretty much it. We don't know what kind of pie, though, but I'm sure the arguing will continue when we do.

indeed. although i must say i didnt particularly like how no actual facts were used in regards to the 'actual' argument (which is some kinda of evolution line from what i can derive...) ♂
 
You never goose-piled anyone? It's when everyone jumps on top of another person, literally.

Not that you care, but I have no beef with you. That may have read stronger than it was meant. Peace.

dog-piled??
 
indeed. although i must say i didnt particularly like how no actual facts were used in regards to the 'actual' argument (which is some kinda of evolution line from what i can derive...) ♂

We can't even get people to agree there's more than one way to look at something, let alone get into volumes of finite details. I'm game, though.

I pretty much bailed out at "Carl Sagan said..."
 
We can't even get people to agree there's more than one way to look at something, let alone get into volumes of finite details. I'm game, though.

I pretty much bailed out at "Carl Sagan said..."

carl sagan said many things...
 
Well debated, Nerrad. Let me add some grist for the mill

It appears some think science and faith are incompatible. Strange, men such as Issac Newton didn't think so. In fact, they used science to show the great and awesome power of God.

I am a man of science (B.S. in Pharmacy in 1986 from the University of Iowa; Doctor of Pharmacy from the University of Kentucky in 1999). I am pretty well versed in the biological sciences. I can show you how "complex" a cell is by just the microbiology of cancer alone. Science is, as of yet, not been able to create life yet. The closest they have come is to clone living species (Dolly the sheep and the like). The dirty little secret the lay press fails to report is the huge numbers of cloned creatures is takes to get one born and to survive. It takes hundreds of clones that die in utero, at birth, or shortly after, to get one Dolly, or the like. It is difficult and a very expensive process. Hence, the 'clone your dying pet' industry didn't really take off as planned.

I am a man of faith, accepting Christ as Savior when I was 9. I have studied the Word since then, and still do to this day. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). We all have faith. Even atheists do, for they have faith that there is nothing out there to have faith in. You can ask any soldier (and I seen them every day at the VA) and they will tell you there are no atheists in foxholes. Sadly, today many put more faith in science than the Lord.

Ah, but which science? Darwin proposed evolution as the source of all creatures on this earth, a theory he refuted later in life (but let us not muddy the water with that little known fact...). So, let's look at some real questions that questions the "billions and billions of years' that the late Carl Sagan, et al. keep telling us about. I have made a study of the life sciences all my life. The evidence is just not there for Bing Bang or evolution. There is ample evidence for the 'young earth' proposal.



(1) The moon's orbit: The moon's orbit is not static. The moon has been moving further away from the earth at a rate of app. 24 centimeters per year. If the planet has been around for 'billions and billions or years,' with the moon being in it's orbit, if you wind the clock back far enough, well within those billions of years, the moon is right upon the earth. In one billion years, that equals 240,000 kilometers (app. 149,129 miles). The distance of the moon from the earth ranges from 356,500 km and 406,500 km. A satellite the size of the moon that close would have had major. if not catastrophic effects on the Earth if you move it as close as the math shows it would have been.

(2) Mount St. Helens: When Mt. St. Helens erupted in the early 1980's, it showed the awesome power that a volcanic eruption could incur. The mud and ashflows created, within one week, scale models of canyons not unlike the Grand Canyon in Arizona. Rocks created by the lava eruption were taken to dating labs to have carbon-14 testing done by independent observers. Those labs 'showed' that rock, taken to the labs within a decade of their creation by the eruption, was 10,000 years old! So, can we really trust carbon 14 dating? Not when there are other tests, such as helium testing, which measures the constant release of helium from rock as opposed to the proposed radioactive decay of carbon-14, that shows more consistent and accurate results.

(3). Proposed lack of non-evolutionary scientists: At anyone's request, I can get a list of myriads of Ph.D. level physicists, astrophysicists, geologists, archaeologists, etc., who support the intelligent design/young earth side. They are out there and they are being published. They are just being ignored by the pro-evolutionary radicals that are seeing more and more of their claims eroded by the 'despicable tools' of research and the scientific method.

There are other rebuffs (the salinity of the oceans, how the coal beds were created, geology evidences of the Noahic flood, lack of new star "formation', etc.) but I will save those for another time. I'll give y'all a chance to flame me for being the uninformed, ignorant redneck Bible-thumping stereotype that many seem to want to portray us all as first, as it appears from posted earlier in this thread.

Insulting our intelligence only serves to show how poorly constructed your argument is. Claiming my faith has been 'disproved' is not only way off track, but sadly mistaken, as archeological evidence is showing that more and more of the historic record of the Bible is true. Faith and science can and will always mix.

I'll leave you with this thought to make all of you atheists crazy. Every cell in your body is held in place by a specific protein, called the cellular adhesion molecule or laminin. It holds every cell in your body in place. It literally holds you together so you don't literally fall apart at the seams. Get a load of the structure and shape of this cellular protein. I have attached a picture of it to this thread.

His fingerprints are all over us, my friends...
 

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Well debated, Nerrad. Let me add some grist for the mill

It appears some think science and faith are incompatible. Strange, men such as Issac Newton didn't think so. In fact, they used science to show the great and awesome power of God.

I am a man of science (B.S. in Pharmacy in 1986 from the University of Iowa; Doctor of Pharmacy from the University of Kentucky in 1999). I am pretty well versed in the biological sciences. I can show you how "complex" a cell is by just the microbiology of cancer alone. Science is, as of yet, not been able to create life yet. The closest they have come is to clone living species (Dolly the sheep and the like). The dirty little secret the lay press fails to report is the huge numbers of cloned creatures is takes to get one born and to survive. It takes hundreds of clones that die in utero, at birth, or shortly after, to get one Dolly, or the like. It is difficult and a very expensive process. Hence, the 'clone your dying pet' industry didn't really take off as planned.

I am a man of faith, accepting Christ as Savior when I was 9. I have studied the Word since then, and still do to this day. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). We all have faith. Even atheists do, for they have faith that there is nothing out there to have faith in. You can ask any soldier (and I seen them every day at the VA) and they will tell you there are no atheists in foxholes. Sadly, today many put more faith in science than the Lord.

Ah, but which science? Darwin proposed evolution as the source of all creatures on this earth, a theory he refuted later in life (but let us not muddy the water with that little known fact...). So, let's look at some real questions that questions the "billions and billions of years' that the late Carl Sagan, et al. keep telling us about. I have made a study of the life sciences all my life. The evidence is just not there for Bing Bang or evolution. There is ample evidence for the 'young earth' proposal.



(1) The moon's orbit: The moon's orbit is not static. The moon has been moving further away from the earth at a rate of app. 24 centimeters per year. If the planet has been around for 'billions and billions or years,' with the moon being in it's orbit, if you wind the clock back far enough, well within those billions of years, the moon is right upon the earth. In one billion years, that equals 240,000 kilometers (app. 149,129 miles). The distance of the moon from the earth ranges from 356,500 km and 406,500 km. A satellite the size of the moon that close would have had major. if not catastrophic effects on the Earth if you move it as close as the math shows it would have been.

(2) Mount St. Helens: When Mt. St. Helens erupted in the early 1980's, it showed the awesome power that a volcanic eruption could incur. The mud and ashflows created, within one week, scale models of canyons not unlike the Grand Canyon in Arizona. Rocks created by the lava eruption were taken to dating labs to have carbon-14 testing done by independent observers. Those labs 'showed' that rock, taken to the labs within a decade of their creation by the eruption, was 10,000 years old! So, can we really trust carbon 14 dating? Not when there are other tests, such as helium testing, which measures the constant release of helium from rock as opposed to the proposed radioactive decay of carbon-14, that shows more consistent and accurate results.

(3). Proposed lack of non-evolutionary scientists: At anyone's request, I can get a list of myriads of Ph.D. level physicists, astrophysicists, geologists, archaeologists, etc., who support the intelligent design/young earth side. They are out there and they are being published. They are just being ignored by the pro-evolutionary radicals that are seeing more and more of their claims eroded by the 'despicable tools' of research and the scientific method.

There are other rebuffs (the salinity of the oceans, how the coal beds were created, geology evidences of the Noahic flood, lack of new star "formation', etc.) but I will save those for another time. I'll give y'all a chance to flame me for being the uninformed, ignorant redneck Bible-thumping stereotype that many seem to want to portray us all as first, as it appears from posted earlier in this thread.

Insulting our intelligence only serves to show how poorly constructed your argument is. Claiming my faith has been 'disproved' is not only way off track, but sadly mistaken, as archeological evidence is showing that more and more of the historic record of the Bible is true. Faith and science can and will always mix.

I'll leave you with this thought to make all of you atheists crazy. Every cell in your body is held in place by a specific protein, called the cellular adhesion molecule or laminin. It holds every cell in your body in place. It literally holds you together so you don't literally fall apart at the seams. Get a load of the structure and shape of this cellular protein. I have attached a picture of it to this thread.

His fingerprints are all over us, my friends...

ur my hero ky! XD good post. i have a few questions though. does the rate that the moon is moving away from the earth have anything to do with the rate at which the universe is expanding? and do you think that carbon dating finds how old the molecule is? not the item. (if that makes any sense...)
 
That's good stuff, KY.

How about they used a potassium-argon method of dating and volcanic material in Hawaii less than 200 years old tested at between 160 million and 3 billion years old? Or that a shell from a LIVING MOLLUSK was tested for carbon-14 and found to be dead for 3000 years.
 
That's good stuff, KY.

How about they used a potassium-argon method of dating and volcanic material in Hawaii less than 200 years old tested at between 160 million and 3 billion years old? Or that a shell from a LIVING MOLLUSK was tested for carbon-14 and found to be dead for 3000 years.

the mollusk one made me cry with laughter when i learned of it.
 
Well debated, Nerrad. Let me add some grist for the mill

It appears some think science and faith are incompatible. Strange, men such as Issac Newton didn't think so. In fact, they used science to show the great and awesome power of God.
Science and faith aren't incompatible, science and blind faith are incompatible. In addition to being a genius, Newton was a superstitious nerd who named the decomposition of sunlight the "spectrum", which comes from the latin for "ghost", spectre. He also believed in mystical numerology, which is why he insisted there were (lucky) 7 primary colors. Modern physicists reject indigo as a primary color.

(1) The moon's orbit: The moon's orbit is not static. The moon has been moving further away from the earth at a rate of app. 24 centimeters per year. If the planet has been around for 'billions and billions or years,' with the moon being in it's orbit, if you wind the clock back far enough, well within those billions of years, the moon is right upon the earth. In one billion years, that equals 240,000 kilometers (app. 149,129 miles). The distance of the moon from the earth ranges from 356,500 km and 406,500 km. A satellite the size of the moon that close would have had major. if not catastrophic effects on the Earth if you move it as close as the math shows it would have been.
The first thing you posted is false, so I won't waste my time debunking the rest. It's not as if you're actually seeking scientific truth.

The moon is moving away from the Earth at 3.8 cm per year, not 24 cm per year. You're off by a factor of more than six.
 
As fun as this was, I must leave you now and you'll be without my services for this week as I cruise through the Bahamas and ponder everything I've learned from the deck of a Royal Caribbean liner. Rest assured, I'll be anxious to get back to this seminar/thread as soon as I return.

Fight nice.
 
I'll bite, since it seems that no one else in favor of science is posting here.

First off, I'll say that I've never been one to object to someone else's beliefs. What I object to is the tendency, especially prevalent on the Internet, to either insult someone for not following the same beliefs, or when confronted with an argument, to throw up a smokescreen and dodge the point.

I also take issue with some of the facts presented here, but that's a topic for actual argument, so I'll get to that later. One last thing:
I pretty much bailed out at "Carl Sagan said..."

I admit this bothers me. It's pretty much a "I'm not even going to listen to what you're saying because I'm already convinced you're wrong." The attitude goes both ways, but I don't like it either way. Whatever you may believe or not believe, Carl Sagan did make significant contributions in our effort to understand our universe. Whether you believe that universe is God-created or the result of natural processes is up to you.

It also strikes me as somewhat disingenuous to say that "Because x amount of scientists believe in an intelligent design/young earth theory, those who support evolution and an old Earth are frantic and angry because they're being proven wrong." Sure, such people will be published - science tends to hear all arguments, even if the scientists themselves are derisive of one or another. Scientists are people too, with their own beliefs and prejudices, for either side. Americans also seem to be the only industrialized peoples that have such a widespread problem with the theories of evolution/old Earth. Are we going to claim that we're just more "enlightened" than the rest of the world or that we're somehow chosen to understand the real truth of the world? (By the way, Darwin faced intense social pressure from many of his peers after publishing his theory of evolution, so it's not surprising that he may have backed down after the continued scrutiny took its toll.)

Now, first... the Moon.

The Earth is subject to meteor strikes. Leaving the dinosaurs out of this, an impact of significant power took place in the early twentieth century at Siberia. I don't think (I hope) that anyone will argue against the fact that, in our universe, there are a lot of things moving around, and sometimes those things collide. The Shoemaker-Levy comets impacting Jupiter about ten years ago are another example of such. And our own Moon is no exception. Now, even with the naked eye, you can look out on a clear night and see that the Moon's surface is cratered.

What does all of this mean? It means that the likelihood of the Moon's orbit and/or movement away or towards the Earth is not by any means an uninterrupted continuation of movement away or towards the Earth. The Moon's larger craters called mascons actually exert an influence on the Moon's gravitational field. Hence, it's quite possible that the Moon's speed changed via impact, or perhaps some other reason... regardless, the Moon's orbital velocity and rotational velocity slowed over time until they became stable, which is a process that doesn't take place over short periods of time. It may be a human limitation to be unable to see or comprehend things that take place in infinitesimally small amounts over immense amounts of time. And the figure I recall is the 3.8cm one, not the 32cm one that was cited.

Now, can this be proven to anyone's satisfaction? Sadly, probably not; if you don't believe it already, you'd just say that you have your facts and I have mine and this solves nothing, and if you do, well, I didn't need to convince you anyway, did I?

Secondly, the radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating issue that you call up. The method used to prove the age of the Earth and its rocks is not radiocarbon dating; it's known that this technique cannot date anything past 60,000 years, so it's an example of a straw man. Radiocarbon dating is wrong, hence all forms of scientific dating is wrong, hence the Earth is not four billion years old. For one, radiocarbon dating is more often used to prove the age of things that were once living, since it's about all that will remain of them. Furthermore scientists are fully aware that radiocarbon dating can suffer from contamination problems - why would the material from Mount St. Helens be reading all sorts of wild dates? I'd say the fact that a volcano just erupted on top of it might be a pretty big hint as to a source of contamination. Scientists know this, and that's why radiocarbon is not only an inexact science but one that is constantly attempting to improve its accuracy via new means such as Accelerator Mass Spectrometry. Scientists know they aren't perfect, but science is devoted to following the truth, no matter how personally devastating or difficult it might be for humanity to understand. And they aren't blind to errors of method or judgment; hence why scientists, instead of accepting that cold-fusion or stem-cell cloning were indisputable fact, undertook to see if the results could be falsified - and both were.

Finding the Earth's date is done via uranium-lead dating, not radiocarbon dating. And actually these tests have been done on outside sources of material - asteroids - that do not suffer from the sometimes deceptive actions of Earth's atmosphere and weathering action.

Yet I have a feeling all this is in vain, because someone else will present their own science refuting what I have said, and what you believe will depend on your pre-existing tendencies.

Also, a quick theoretical question: If God made Heaven and Earth on the "first day" but didn't make the Sun first, who's to say how long the first "day" was? How can you tell how long the "day" is without light to call it such?
 
Last edited:
I wasn't discounting Carl Sagan. I was pretty much done believing anything useful was coming from this conversation.

I think I've posted about three times now that we all don't have to agree. For some reason, that gets passed over.

I can also answer your question about "days", but not in the few minutes I have left right now. Then again... why bother. It'd just be my "interpretation" of it and someone will come by and flame it again.

Notice how a hot topic will draw in some intelligent people with ideas and knowledge, yet the threads always go to hell regardless? I guess it becomes an "I'm smartest" contest. There's really no point in this. We'll be skiing on the slopes of hell before I see someone say "You know... that's interesting. I hadn't heard it quite like that."
 
I'll bite, since it seems that no one else in favor of science is posting here.

First off, I'll say that I've never been one to object to someone else's beliefs. What I object to is the tendency, especially prevalent on the Internet, to either insult someone for not following the same beliefs, or when confronted with an argument, to throw up a smokescreen and dodge the point.

I also take issue with some of the facts presented here, but that's a topic for actual argument, so I'll get to that later. One last thing:


I admit this bothers me. It's pretty much a "I'm not even going to listen to what you're saying because I'm already convinced you're wrong." The attitude goes both ways, but I don't like it either way. Whatever you may believe or not believe, Carl Sagan did make significant contributions in our effort to understand our universe. Whether you believe that universe is God-created or the result of natural processes is up to you.

It also strikes me as somewhat disingenuous to say that "Because x amount of scientists believe in an intelligent design/young earth theory, those who support evolution and an old Earth are frantic and angry because they're being proven wrong." Sure, such people will be published - science tends to hear all arguments, even if the scientists themselves are derisive of one or another. Scientists are people too, with their own beliefs and prejudices, for either side. Americans also seem to be the only industrialized peoples that have such a widespread problem with the theories of evolution/old Earth. Are we going to claim that we're just more "enlightened" than the rest of the world or that we're somehow chosen to understand the real truth of the world? (By the way, Darwin faced intense social pressure from many of his peers after publishing his theory of evolution, so it's not surprising that he may have backed down after the continued scrutiny took its toll.)

Now, first... the Moon.

The Earth is subject to meteor strikes. Leaving the dinosaurs out of this, an impact of significant power took place in the early twentieth century at Siberia. I don't think (I hope) that anyone will argue against the fact that, in our universe, there are a lot of things moving around, and sometimes those things collide. The Shoemaker-Levy comets impacting Jupiter about ten years ago are another example of such. And our own Moon is no exception. Now, even with the naked eye, you can look out on a clear night and see that the Moon's surface is cratered.

What does all of this mean? It means that the likelihood of the Moon's orbit and/or movement away or towards the Earth is not by any means an uninterrupted continuation of movement away or towards the Earth. The Moon's larger craters called mascons actually exert an influence on the Moon's gravitational field. Hence, it's quite possible that the Moon's speed changed via impact, or perhaps some other reason... regardless, the Moon's orbital velocity and rotational velocity slowed over time until they became stable, which is a process that doesn't take place over short periods of time. It may be a human limitation to be unable to see or comprehend things that take place in infinitesimally small amounts over immense amounts of time. And the figure I recall is the 3.8cm one, not the 32cm one that was cited.

Now, can this be proven to anyone's satisfaction? Sadly, probably not; if you don't believe it already, you'd just say that you have your facts and I have mine and this solves nothing, and if you do, well, I didn't need to convince you anyway, did I?

Secondly, the radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating issue that you call up. The method used to prove the age of the Earth and its rocks is not radiocarbon dating; it's known that this technique cannot date anything past 60,000 years, so it's an example of a straw man. Radiocarbon dating is wrong, hence all forms of scientific dating is wrong, hence the Earth is not four billion years old. For one, radiocarbon dating is more often used to prove the age of things that were once living, since it's about all that will remain of them. Furthermore scientists are fully aware that radiocarbon dating can suffer from contamination problems - why would the material from Mount St. Helens be reading all sorts of wild dates? I'd say the fact that a volcano just erupted on top of it might be a pretty big hint as to a source of contamination. Scientists know this, and that's why radiocarbon is not only an inexact science but one that is constantly attempting to improve its accuracy via new means such as Accelerator Mass Spectrometry. Scientists know they aren't perfect, but science is devoted to following the truth, no matter how personally devastating or difficult it might be for humanity to understand. And they aren't blind to errors of method or judgment; hence why scientists, instead of accepting that cold-fusion or stem-cell cloning were indisputable fact, undertook to see if the results could be falsified - and both were.

Finding the Earth's date is done via uranium-lead dating, not radiocarbon dating. And actually these tests have been done on outside sources of material - asteroids - that do not suffer from the sometimes deceptive actions of Earth's atmosphere and weathering action.

Yet I have a feeling all this is in vain, because someone else will present their own science refuting what I have said, and what you believe will depend on your pre-existing tendencies.

Also, a quick theoretical question: If God made Heaven and Earth on the "first day" but didn't make the Sun first, who's to say how long the first "day" was? How can you tell how long the "day" is without light to call it such?

Excellent post.

The really pathetic thing about the first part of the Genesis fairytale is that there was light. There was day and night before there was a sun, which of course makes no logical sense whatsoever, but let's face it, Abrahamic religions and logic seldom go hand in hand.

You can't even get past the first page of Genesis before running into sheer, childish nonsense. Why grown humans expect this book to guide the world boggles the rational mind.

Just to tweak the Sagan haters one more time:

"You see, the religious people — most of them — really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn't want Lot's wife to look back, why didn't he make her obedient, so she'd do what her husband told her? Or if he hadn't made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would've listened to him more. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why is he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition."
 
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