Hang John Walker

[JoBelle]

Well, Scot, that wasn't exactly what I expected. 😉I thought you a heartless ogre. You've proven me wrong and I'm glad to see it.

The Past
---
You broiled me for responding to very specific words in a single post. I'm not familiar with your previous posts. I wasn't responding to THEM. You didn't just "hint that you disagreed with the popular view." You very succinctly stated that the people holding that same opinion as I were bloodthirsty. **Pitchforks? Torches?** I had nothing to work with other than what was written before me. You appeared to be more concerned with defending the "system" than you were of expressing any amount of understanding for the victims. What I read from you had more to do with bracing against the "popular" thought of an "eye for an eye" than it did anything else. This was a response to your post Scot, NOT your personality or world view.

I will not apologize for my anger, or my disappointment based on your inital post. I feel as a response it was justified. I will also not change my mind about the situation at hand. Sometimes, yes, sometimes, I feel vengeance may just be the answer, as horrible as that makes me. I just grieve at the possibility that any single one of them ever end up back in the world to terrorize it again.


The Future
---
That being said, will you accept that my opinion of your stance has since changed? Having heard your thoughts more thoroughly, I will now stand up and say that I AM SORRY for misjudging your intent. You obvisouly do care....quite a bit. I believe your words here are some of the most expressive and full of emotion as any I have seen on this topic. I hope this exchange hasn't ruined what could possibly be passionate exchanges on other topics in the future.

We will continue to disagree about the way in which this should be handled, but I dare say we both feel the same rage about the events that made this disagreement come to light. In the end, no one in the world will be 100% satisfied. Given the loss, no one could be.

Peace?
Jo

 

[JoBelle]

Sigh......
My heart aches and my brain is tired.

Do you want me to say line them up against a fence and put bullets in their heads?
Do you want me to say that they should be given leniency now that they have decided to switch sides, post incident?
Do you want me to say that should go through therapy?
Do you want me to say they are really good people trapped in a bad system?
What do you propose as an appropriate response to their actions?
How can you be so full of understanding for the people they murdered and yet full of sympathy for them?
How do I learn to have the level of understanding?

As a mother, I think to myself, "If my little boy were one of the ones who died...would I not personally rip the hearts out of everyone of them?" YES I WOULD! If you find that repulsive...if you find that sub-human...if you find that politically incorrect then I feel sorry for you.

I'm sure you think I'm no better than the people we are discussing, as you you have so vividly described my bloodthirst YET AGAIN.

As you said...if you knew anything about me...

If you had half a clue as to who I am, you would understand my intolerance for those who take the life of someone else. I've no use for them, regardless of anything that happens after they get caught.
They made their beds....let 'em lie.

Jo....the TMF villain.

 

[shark]

I have another few points to consider,if you wish:

These people have already rioted once,killing one American,telling him that that was their intention when they came to Afghanistan.

Every day these guys are being guarded,they are an admittedly active threat to the troops guarding them.Their whole lives are dedicated to killing Americans off.

A similar scenario was played out before in Korea,when certain North koreans "surrendered".The plan was to coordinate simultaneous uprisings in all the POW camps,but was discovered and thwarted.Now you have the same type of motivated individuals all marshalled into one,not so secure,encampment.

There is still question as to what to do with these detainees/pows/
whatever.And while everyone plays around deciding,these guys have the time and opportunity to plan and coordinate.

 

[Marauder]

Just a short note to JoBelle

Jo, I don't see you as the TMF-villain, and I'm certain that no-one meant to cast you into that role. I wouldn't even say you appear 'bloodthirsty'. In my eyes, to be bloodthirsty you need to be the attacker, not the defender. You are vengeful - and we all are. If someone would rape and kill my girlfriend, I'd be hard-pressed to refrain from going out there with a chainsaw and make him beg for death. I'm as hot-blooded as you. I just try to fight this emotion, believing firmly in a better, more civilized world. I believe that 'An Eye For An Eye' is outdated, especially since I see the basic sentiment in myself. I don't want to give in to that drive, however. I believe myself to be standing above the level of those barbarians.
One more point I have to address, however, because it really hits a sore spot in me. I get an allergic reaction whenever I hear that any group of human beings is called 'sub-human' or 'not of our kind'. That is fascist, plain and simple. Be it based on what they did, it makes no difference to basing it upon how they look, how they speak, or from where they came. As soon as any group can be called 'sub-human' and be treated accordingly, the state of freedom, humanity and equality dissolves into a state of fascism. Mindsets like that tend to spread. First you have the terrorists, making them out as 'not human'. Then the American sympathisers. What then? Flag-burners? People who dare to speak out against the government? The basis for a truly free state is to accept all humans as equal beings. I believe in that. And thus my previously stated point - Treat them just like any American citizen who commited a like crime. Court, sentence, prison. Maybe, since you have the death-penalty, death, if it can be proven that they were PERSONALLY (not by affiliation) involved in the WTC-attack, or that they PERSONALLY (not the regime they fought for) committed a war-crime.
As for Walker - Same here. The fact that he followed his beliefs doesn't justify prosecuting him. The fact that he committed high treason does. And if he killed a single American soldier, he's guilty of murder. Just treat him accordingly. But remember - they are human, every single one of them. All humans could commit the crimes they did. The Taliban is not the first regime that committed crimes against humanity.
Another clarification: I'M NOT ATTACKING ANYONE PERSONALLY HERE. I don't call anyone a fascist. I'm just stating my opinion without trying to be a holier-than-thou demagogue. Please don't take my posts as anything else then what they are - my beliefs, not my attempt to change the way any of you think by force.

This is a very touchy subject.

 

[qjakal]

Nyet...don't fret

It's a discussion guys...pure and simple. Some of us feel "this" way, others "that", some are shaded between the more extreme positions presented, but it represents a cross section of opinion throughout the forum. I never post expecting to change anyones mind about a topic, merely to offer a view from my perspective, and I always try to assume others do the same, in general. Obviously this IS a touchy subject, but it's a legitimate debate regarding the rights/virtues/needs of a government vs those of individuals that have transgressed against the people of that government and just about every religous tenet held throughout the world. I say..."inhuman"...you think they're "misguided followers"....I say "death is forever", you agree and say we shouldn't kill others. I agree, but don't classify these creatures as "others". It's really quite futile from a logic standpoint, and it serves its purpose by letting us all blow off some steam and vent a bit, not as educational therapy designed to readjust each other. Accept it for what it is and enjoy the interaction.. Q

 

[JoBelle]

'Wow, what a good nights sleep will do for a person.

Marauder, thank you.

As for the rest of this. I cannot be rational about men who murdered innocent men, women and children. That is the piece here that catches in my heart and makes me insane. All other aspects of human relations aside, these men were part of that, either directly or indirectly. They supported it. I have no use for them. I can't get past the fact that they killed so many people and now want their own lives preserved. That makes me sick to my stomach...probably much like the thought of execution does to so others.

As far as it being held up for discussion on a tickling site, I am just grateful that we as a community feel conmfortable enough to touch on the difficult subjects rather than hiding our heads in the sand like so much of the population. The thread title might be extreme, but not a bad topic. I think it's a good thing. It may not seem so, but I've heard the opposing view, and I'm taking their words into consideration when I think about the subject.

Jo

 

[Slappy McGee]

this is obviously a hot and emotional topic for everyone. I see nothing but long posts where people are being very careful of what they say and how they say it. Nobody wants to come across as unfeeling, or mean, but there is a lot of anger present too.

I'll just say this as simply as I can, and let it stand however anyone wants to take it:

I am a good, kind and loving person. I like to bring good into the world. However. There are people I think should be dead. I'd kill them myself if given the chance, and I would never feel bad about it, because i know the world would be a better place without them. The terrorists we are battling are all members of this category in my opinion. They shouldn't be mistreated, they shouldn't be tortured, they should just be dead, as quickly and easliy as we can do it. That is what I honestly feel.

Sorry if anyone dislikes me for this comment, but it is what i really feel.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

well...

I haven't really thought up any real stiring speechs yet to make on this post, so i'll just kepp it simple for the time being by making a quote, although i don't think i got the words all right, but the point is still there.. "When dealing with monsters, one should be careful that they do not become monsters."

 

[qjakal]

Monsters indeed...

Think of us as a nation of werewolves, and this event as a full moon. It will pass, but the carnage it brings will scour the world of these fools before our sun rises and we become couch potato football and beer loving goofs with a pot belly and middle age wives and weird kids again. Don't call the storm down if you're not prepared for rain.....but don't worry about America. We'll take care of business and as I said, revert to sloths once again. Hopefully no one will poke the bear again in any of our lifetimes. Q

 

[omega]

Has it occured to anyone that these prisoners may want to be killed. I should think that in their minds to be killed by an American because of attacks against America would certainly merit a "get into paradise free" pass from Allah.

 

[shark]

I have no doubt that many want to be killed...their ticket to paradise.If that's what they want,we should oblige them before they get the chance to take as many others as possible.Or even be used as bargaining chips in the future.

 

[omega]

My dear Q, tsk . . . tsk . . . tsk

You respond to my literal view of the Bible by posting a long list of Biblical accounts of killing and slaughter and saying that you would hope we are now above all of that. Then you post these things here. Calling for the slaughter of many people.

Come now, I thought we were above all of that. Perhaps you should not take the attacks on New York and the Pentagon so literally.

 

[qjakal]

Many?

Define "many" omega...lol..a few hundred fanatics isn't a percentage of a % of the population! And I don't believe I ever stated that they need to be or should be killed, if you review my posts, rather that they have forfeited human status and live due to the charity or ulterior motives of our government. Also doubt I ever thought we were "above" anything as a species! You must be quoting dvnc by mistake! I'm fairly certain we are barely covering a layer of savagery with a thin veneer of society and civilization...! 😱 Q

 

[Myriads]

All things work in THEORY Myraids. Unfortunately, this is real life we're discussing.

Alas, it's true we do live in reality. My reality is that I live, and am a citizen of a nation state that has no problems with removing the right to live from sentients. Happily, many other forward thinking nations have outlawed the practice, and give me hope that my nation also can join their ranks someday. Until then, I will work as hard as I can to make my vision of what should be, be. Just because the world is not yet perfect is no reason to abandon ones ideals.

Sadly, this discussion revolves around people whose basic function of existence was to TAKE LIFE. "Better to put them in a place where they can be studied and learned from. Someplace that allows us to remember the faces of evil, and talk to them so we don't forget." That's an interesting thought. What have we to learn from lunatics with no regard for life itself? Would you have tossed Stalin and Hitler in a jail cell and psychoanalyzed them?

We have much to learn from such people. They have value alive. Dead they serve no purpose. Death is the zeroing of all potential. The liquidation of all worth. It's a waste.
A Hitler or Stalin in captivity would be of incalculable value. To be able to understand the ways that such can come to form their world view, to see where the flaws in their ability to value what others do, and how these views emerged, are all possible with study. If we could learn how to stop the formation of another dark soul such as they, well, the value would be unimaginable. The value of the millions of the future victims of that saved dark soul that who now would not die couldn't be calculated. That is the possible value in imprisoning and learning from these people.

Are you suggesting that by eliminating this element, we are somehow creating a stance of equality with them? That's an argument I've struggled with on my own. My answer? No. The first time a creature raised a fist to protect itself, this process began. I think this is more than simple revenge. I view this as one aspect of self preservation.

One can always protect oneself from direct attack. One certainly has the right to do so if another is attempting to remove your right to live. However, John Walker is no threat to anyone any more. He's quite unable to harm anyone now. Thus killing him now and claiming it was self defense stretches the idea of self preservation to a considerable extent.

This is a surprise even to me. I look at these "humans" and I do not see entities worthy of life. I see blackness that TOOK life. They are murderers. Self-proclaimed by the doctrine that they follow. Evil in this form will not be forgotten if we TRIED to push it to the back of our thoughts.

You are defining a group of people as being in a separate class from the 'rest of us'. Saying that they are somehow not worth basic human rights (thus defining them as non-human or less then human) based upon their actions. This is dangerous. For it basically creates the precedent for this form of thinking: DEFINE {individual} NOT EQUAL TO {human} IF {Enter parameter} Where the parameter that you enter can be what ever those in power decide it should be. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler all found good ones.

Alas, one can't resign being human. No matter what one does, no matter how vile, you are still human. And thus you are due the rights of a human. The right to not be deprived of your life is the very first one. No exceptions.

My question is this, What is the measure of a life? As soon as you imprison these men, their lives have ended. What right have you to cage a person any more than you do to execute one? What right have you to lord laws of your choosing over another man any more than ending his life. You've effectively stated that it is acceptable to control another man's life, but not to physically end it. That confuses me. You have taken away his very presense on the planet.

Their lives do not end with imprisonment. Their ability to go where they wish does. A significant difference.

Freedom to walk the planet is not an inalienable right like the right to life. It's a conditional one. It is based on the ability of an individual to co-exist within his society and not deprive any of his fellows of any of their inalienable rights. Society has the right to protect itself from elements that attempt to do it harm, so long as in doing so it doesn't impinge upon any inalienable rights of the wrongdoer while doing so.

Is it fair for society to have to play by the rules while the 'bad guys' don't? No. But this is not about fairness, it's about what is right. Sometimes one has to play with a handicap. This is one such case. If one is going to be civilized one can't toss out the rules when things get inconvenient.

One would argue that prison was thereby punishment enough. Prison, where you are clothed, fed, medicated, as if you were a baby in the crook of society's arm. This is punishment for mass murder? I have a difficult time hearing someone say that people should not be held accountable for their actions. They have created a situation. Cause and Effect. We are now in the latter of the two events. This is not an issue of varying degrees. This is cut and dry..life and death.

Prison is not, and should not be about punishment. It's about protection. Protection of society. It's a place where we place elements that have proven to be dangerous to society. The walls keep them from US. The fact that we have come to use prisons as places to put people for trivial crimes (drug use and possession, prostitution, property and fiscal crime) has obscured what they are for. Places to put individuals who cannot live within their societies due to an inability to live within or understand that societies most basic moral and ethical rules.

And by removing their right of freedom, we are holding them accountable. They kill, we remove them from society. Cause and effect. There is no need to deprive them of their basic right to life. No need to for society to become what it is protecting itself from.

"Civilized nations do not execute sentients." The only other option is to let a man be completely free. Or in essense, you've ended his life already. So we either execute them, or turn them into fat little lab rats whose very existence becomes a leech to the lives that could be helped in place of the preservation of murderers. ARGHHHHHHH....that is so much more respectful of life????

No there are other options. As discussed above, they can be imprisoned. Imprisonment does not end a life. It simply decreases it's possibilities. Most significantly it decreases the possibilities of that individual to harm other sentients.

Once you invest your state with the power to kill, you also invest it with the power to decide who it can CHOOSE to kill. That is fine and wonderful when you like those choices, right up to the moment when you find yourself or a loved one suddenly in the group marked as expendable through accident or chance. Then one's wish that your state respected the right to life of all sentients might take upon a different urgency.

That energy needs to be spent upon caring for those that society imprisons is one of the costs of living in a civilized culture. Just because those we choose to lock up would kill us without qualm does not mean that our society and culture should become a mirror of that twisted mindset. We are civilized. Barbarians kill helpless prisoners. We are not barbarians. At least I like to think we are not. Sometimes though, I do wonder. A Zero level society indeed.

Myriads

 

[shark]

I think we are confusing our civilian sosiety with the tribunals.In our sosiety, it is a jury that decides guilt,and at least gives recommendations for punishment,if not the punishment itself.If these guys go in front of a tribunal,it is a separate entity from our society.

 

[drkjedi458]

myriads, i respectfully have to disagree with your anti capitol punishment sentiments. a few years back a friend of mine lost her sister. her sisters ex husband was released after a year in jail for putting her in the hospital and he was out a week when he went to her house and forced his way in and beat her to death. the state of kansas saw fit to give him life in prison. now our tax dollars are going to make sure him and thousands like him get free cable tv and 3 meals a day for the rest of their natural born lives. what kind of justice is that when someone can kill a loving mother and get a free ride in return? why give them a free ride...execute them and let them serve their sentence in hell. some may say that it would be barbaric and uncivilized to execute people like that but getting a needle in his arm would have been far more civilized then beating someone until they die. even while their being executed their shown more decency and mercy then they had shown the people they killed. their being treated far better then they deserve and thats just one of the great things about america. we rise above that kind of behavior and dispense justice in a humane manner even in executions. they may be getting killed thats true but their getting killed as quick and painless as possible. the only exception is the electric chair and gas chamber which in my opinion should be banned in every state. but lethal injection is a method thats considered relativly painless. hanging wouldnt be all that bad either if done correctly but its not fool proof. if i was the one facing execution id rather face a firing squad then the chair. my point is, as long as they recieve the fair trial that every human being deserves and if their executed in the most humane manner possible then execution is justice served better then putting them in prison for life and making us foot the bill. it would sicken me to pay taxes so a traitor and his terrorist friends can watch the simpsons and sit around eating food we payed for. i dunno...i may be branded uncivilized and barbaric for my views on capitol punishment...but if so i say to you...your damn well right! if they were mine to dispose of i would STILL throw them to the lions.
and it wouldnt take me no 20 years to push em in either.

 

[JoBelle]

You are defining a group of people as being in a separate class from the 'rest of us'. Saying that they are somehow not worth basic human rights (thus defining them as non-human or less then human) based upon their actions. This is dangerous. For it basically creates the precedent for this form of thinking: DEFINE {individual} NOT EQUAL TO {human} IF {Enter parameter} Where the parameter that you enter can be what ever those in power decide it should be. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler all found good ones.
Myraids, I would not choose to insert a variety of variables into the equation you generously provided. I feel that the murder of an innocent is in a category all its own. It is the ULTIMATE crime.

THIS is where we are fundamentally seperated in thought.


I do believe with all my heart and soul that the actions that these men were associated with do, on a very base level, make them "sub human. " As much as you may disagree with me, that is my argument. THAT is the width and breadth of my belief. They made the choice to be a part of a systematic approach toward the death of a group of innocents. THIS makes them lesser worthy of posessing life....IN MY OPINION!
These were grown men of thought who made the decision to become what your own words lable as BARBARIANS. They were part of a plan that killed helpless people in a number of locals on September 11th.

As a culture, we DO punish wrong doers with fines, the removal of rights, etc. The ultimate step up that punishment ladder is imprisonment. "Jail time" is not to simply protect society, nor do I believe that was ever the only intent. I find error in that argument.

Your turn, shall you choose pink to outline my words now? It's my favorite color. 😉
Jo

 

[omega]

I stand corrected. And it's not the first time

Define "many" omega...lol..a few hundred fanatics isn't a percentage of a % of the population! And I don't believe I ever stated that they need to be or should be killed, if you review my posts, rather that they have forfeited human status and live due to the charity or ulterior motives of our government. Also doubt I ever thought we were "above" anything as a species! You must be quoting dvnc by mistake! I'm fairly certain we are barely covering a layer of savagery with a thin veneer of society and civilization...! 😱 Q

 

[Daumantas]

Jeez, Strel, you opened a can of worms with this thread...

What annoys me most is that John Walker is being treated as virtually a celebrity. "John Walker arrives in Guantanamo today," CNN tells us with bated breath. "John Walker's plane will be arriving soon. John Walker will be arriving in approximately two hours..." You'd think he was going to appear on the Ed Sullivan Show singing "I Want to Hold Your Hand."

Not to be TOO cynical, but just wait for the inevitable Tell-All Book Deal...

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Monsters and SUb humans?

i have to admit, this phrase makes me pretty sad. To categerize a human as being a sub human or a monster. Do you ever wonder why we do that as humans? i'll tell you why. it's to Eliviate any guilt or feelings of remorse. Think about it. All through history this has happened. Native Americans were called Savages. Black people were said to be sub human during the times of slavery. Jewish people were also said to be sub human when the Nazis took power in Germany.
I can certainly see why it's easier to refer to these people as monsters instead of humans. Because, we don't have to try and understand monsters. We don't have to feel sorry we took there life, it's much easier to call them monsters and feel justified, then to think of the monster as a person called Stan, father of two and married to a loving wife.
And on a side note, Prison is not the magical place where prisoners get free cable and three meals a day, like your parents might have told you when tucking you into bed at night. Prison is a horrible place were people are beaten, abused and raped. It may not happens all the time every day, but it does happen, i know that for a fact.
I hope that this post changes the views of atleast one person. Stay tuned though, because i plan on making more ;-)

 

[JoBelle]

Cosmo -

I agree with you 100%. Your religious choice, the color of your skin, the origin of your birth...these things are a different matter entirely. We are talking about people whose intent is to kill. That is independent of most things which are decided for them at birth .

These individuals CHOSE to become killers or would-be killers. They didn't choose to be born with dark hair and olive skin. You see, it isn't judgement based on WHO they are....it is based on the actions that they as individuals chose to make.

Can you not see the difference?
Jo

 

[qjakal]

Monsters...lol

I call like I see 'em! Monsters is an apt description, and it they who have named themselves....call them whatever you like, but keep them the %$#@$%^ off our planes and away from innocent civilians. It's all very theoretical and above board until it's your child, parent or sibling, and then it's too late...way too late. Q

 

[UnclStevel]

Isn't trison punishable by death?

 

[Slappy McGee]

cosmo....

you hit the nail on the head with the "sub human" comments. The fact is that most people need to be coaxed into accepting the killing of another person, whether it is legal or not. It seems strange to me that this world has become so lacking in empathy (obviously there are exceptions) but by the same token, people can get so flustered by things once in a while. I think the "sub human" thing works because people are so damn mentally lazy that they will take a cheesy meaningless explanation that lets their conscience stop bothering them at any goven opportunity.

To me, if these people were "sub humans" it would let them off the hook. I disagree with the putting down of dogs that have attacked people in most cases because animals are not logically thinking beings that weigh the pros and cons of their actions. They react to a situation instinctually, if these terrorosts were "sub human" they would have the same excuse...... In my book that doesn't work. People have the ability to think their actions out, and even the stupidest among us functions on a level that lets them know what they are doing. This is my justification for capital punishment. Life is about choices. Anyone with half a brain knows that if you kill someone you might pay for it with your life. If you make the choice to do it anyway, don't cry to me when they strap you to that electric chair, or when we drop a 2000 pund bomb on your ass.

 

[JoBelle]

WOW....I think every has weighed in on this issue....and what a diverse group we are. One might even thnk us "normal" the way we're debating and getting enraged!! All in all, it's still a pleasure to know there are people in the world who care to discuss....if only to disagree. 😉

On this note, I'm taking my normally chipper self out of this loop...hold the applause please....giggle. 🙂 My brain is weak after thinking about everything that everyone...YES Everyone....has written. Thanks for the food for thought. And Scot, I hope to "argue" with you again some time. 😛

Jo