History & a few thoughts...

[Deleted member 2452]

ticklish9's

i'm not sure what you've learned about comunism, or from whom, but for comunism to succede, the america that we know and love, must fail!
do you believe that if a comunist were elected to high office he wouldn't try to suspend our national freedoms? the offical stated goal of the last few comunist countries in the world is still the defeate off the u.s.a.. look at cuba, they just officialy made comunism the only officially recognized political party in cuba. no, comunism is still our enemy.
steve

 

[avethibaltus]

Communism

Hey, don't bash communists. Jesus Christ was a communist if one can believe the bible - from each according to his ability to each according to his need.

I think you guys are confusing pure communism with socialistic dictatorships like in the former Soviet Union, China or Cuba. The state - and not the people - owns the means of production.

Pure communism is one of those neat theoretical forms of government, the same as pure democracy or pure socialism, that doesn't work in real life.

By the way democrats, when was the last time you elected a president directly? Or even voted for that matter?

(If we were to trace our family trees back far enough we would all be Africans or Indians (from India) depending on who you believe.)

 

[Haltickling]

I agree with you, avethibaltus: Socialism in real-existing countries has nothing to do with communism. Actually, I approve of most of Marx's theories (both in 'Historic Materialism' and 'Dialectic Materialism'), but as all ideal state forms, it would need ideal humans to work: free of greed, power lust, and evil thoughts.

They had a joke in the former GDR (as you speak German, too, you'll probably know it):

"Do you know the difference between Marx and Murks (bullshit, bungling)? Marx is the theory..."

 

[Ticklish9's]

Communism...

Communism and socialism have long been confused by the common American, because the USSR (Union of Soviet -Socialist- Republics) claimed to be embracing Communism. Furthermore, my point was this - in no way can the American people or government suppress the American Communist Party and still represent this country well. The existence of the American Communist Party is a beautiful thing - we who have been brought up to hate Communism (Socialism) and all it stands for still allow those who believe otherwise to freely speak about and argue for this style of government. It is that freedom that is so rare in human history and that freedom that allows us to grow as a nation. After all, one of these days another "fringe" political party may well come up with a belief about government that is radically superior to electoral democracy...and here in America is where they are most likely to find a strong foothold and be able to spread their findings with minimal difficulty.

 

[shark]

Technically speaking,there is no major country in existence today that is truly communist by definition.Just the fact that some form of currency is used will disqualify it from being truly communist.

Jesus a communist? Was that derived from Him saying "Who can tell a rich man what to do with his money"?--communism doesn't tolerate rich people,so this question indicates that being rich is OK and therefore anti-communist.

Or was it in the same discussion,when he indicated that differing wages were acceptable,thus enabling one to earn more,thus being anti-communist?

Or was it His habit of praying,which shows faith in God...another nono in communism,which considers religion the opiate of the masses?

Or maybe His acceptance of,but criticism of,the government in charge?
It certainly wasn't a dictatorship of the proletariat.

Lastly,was it His message of love and forgiveness instead of the preferred communist method of violent overthrow?

American communist party support?Why not deliberately contract a virus and let it sicken you,just because it exists?Or better yet....
there are plenty who think the Al-Queda detainees have a valid point,
and are being mistreated.Why not put them in New Mexico or Arizona,
where the climates are somewhat similar to their own,let them start a small district,and elect their very own US representative?I'm sure the PC subscribers would love that.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Missing the centerpiece...

of the debate, which is not about whether communism is good or bad or "UnAmerican" (as if anything can be truly proscribed in a land founded on the tenets of freedom), but rather about how the existence of the American Communism Party underscores an important fact about America - that we tolerate and even encourage such things as a part of our very nature. I personally think the Communists are about as right as a left turn, but I still think they have every right to attempt to sway people to with their arguments - the intelligent people will make the intelligent choice based on the facts presented. In fact, perhaps the only flaw in the nation's founding was the fact that the tenets of the constitution were based on the assumption that the founding father's would leave a legacy to a caring, intelligent populace - something that may or may not have happened! Anyway, the case is simply this - "I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend - to the death - your right to say it".

 

[red indian]

hey T9!

Whats your view on the current trend for Irish folks going on holiday to south america? I believe columbia is nice this time of year.

 

[shark]

The fact that we are a bastion of freedom makes communism a foreign and dangerous to our society,as does any political ideal that jeopardizes freedom.We didn't make the communists an enemy..THEY did.
It wasn't 3 years after the Russian revolution that they tried their first war of world conquest...does this sound American?It's part of communist ideology.
The fact is that communism is an opposite,and an enemy,to our society,and they should have no part in it.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Our society...

America is an inclusive society, not an exclusive one. Just because you or I think an idea is "dangerous" or "bad" doesn't mean that it inherently is so, or that some other person doesn't think it's a good idea. That's why we have this freedom. Sure, I think the communists are wrong - but they have every right to say what they like. If we limit that right, how are we any better?

 

[Deleted member 2452]

t-niner

for the same reason that you can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. cause it's harmfull, and serves no usfull purpose. just because some people thik an idea is ok, doesn't mean it is. sorry but i think comunism should be a proscribed party here in america.
steve

 

[Ticklish9's]

Freedom is feast or famine...

Once the government begins proscribing political expression of any nature, where does it stop? Sure, we start by banning communism and fascism and other "bad" ideas...but who decides what is "bad" and "good"? You? Me? The government? Really, we aren't debating Bad vs. Good but rather Popular vs. Unpopular - many people (for whatever reason, valid or no) think communism is a good idea. What if they are right? Don't close your mind to other forms of political expression just because you think they are "bad". That's the kind of thinking that exacerbates the removal of those freedoms for which this country was forged. Remember, the British Empire banned "bad" ideas like the Revolution, too!

 

[shark]

communism not bad?Giving that they are actually socialists at this point in time,they do seek to become communist,so that's how I will refer to them.Anyway,a look at history:

Soviet Union under Stalin....systematically starved to death an estimated 37 million in the Ukraine to support his power base near Moscow.All equals huh?To each according to his needs?
How about the notorious gulag system? To this day nobody knows who or how many were imprisoned,tortured,and murdered.

China...our most favored trade nation.66 million killed in the cultural revolution.Unknown number of political dissidents imprisoned or executed,as the Chinese like their secrecy much more than Clinton liked ours.

Cambodia...that great leader Pol Pot.Estimated 3 to 5 million murdered in the killing fields and related activities,nobody knows for sure.Their crimes were being city dwellers and political opponents.

Albania...kidnapping of Greek children for "reeducation" and reentry to Greece for subversion purposes.

Cuba...make your own trip to Miami and ask around about it,and tell them how nice a guy Castro is.

Ask the 106-108 million above how popular or unpopular communism is.Hell,I'll cut slack ond not even include war,just how they handle their "proletariat".I don't THINK communism is bad...one look at the facts and any mentally awake person will KNOW it.The true communist ideal is a pipe dream,and what we will get in the meantime is this garbage dump of a substitute.

 

[Ticklish9's]

All true...

And all very damning of the communists. I agree. On the other hand, this is a free society, so I do NOT agree that they should be shut down and banned. After all, bad ideas or no, they are still American citizens with all the rights and priveleges entitled to them. That means they are allowed to believe that a different political system - whatever it may be - is good. After all, the government we now have is the one that was once viewed with suspicion.

 

[shark]

shut down and banned

No...just executed as self-stated enemies.

 

[Shem the Penman]

Amazing, ain't it, that the same people who cry about "political correctness" destroying the free expression of ideas are also the first to demand the silencing, jailing, or execution of those whose ideas they find offensive.

If we ban communism as a dangerous idea, shouldn't we also crack down on religious extremism of every stripe? After all, it's led to violence and murder in the past. What about political extremism of the sort that bred Timothy McVeigh? Once you start banning ideas, where do you stop? And do you trust the powers that be to stop where you think they should?

Me, I regard communism in the same light I do perpetual motion: nice idea on paper, but it will never work in practice.

 

[qjakal]

Perpetual Motion...?

http://www.boomspeed.com/qjakal/wheel.gif

Besslers Wheel.... 🙂 Q

 

[Ticklish9's]

Shem's Post...

Covers it nicely and accuratly. Where do you draw the line, who draws that line, and under what criteria? The universe is objective...but the mind is subjective.

 

[shark]

What I find amazing is how many who consider them selves to be literate and intelligent can't read a post.I have not used the word offensive anywhere on this thread,so I guess some consider themselves mindreaders,too.
What I said,AGAIN, is that communism's stated intent is our destruction.They,by their own design and intent,are our ENEMIES.If I threatened to wipe out your family and all that you are to satisfy my goals,are you going to be stupid enough to allow me access to do just that?
As for me destroying the free expression of ideas,I am seeking to preserve the system that allows just that.Communism is the system that destroys it,and it is NOT just an idea created for those who enjoy philosophical masturbation.
There are numbers of groups,parties,etc.,that have opposing viewpoints.Some want more government interventions,some want a whole revamping,etc(By the way,there is plenty of evidence that the McVeigh bombing was an Iraqi hit using political ideas as an excuse to get ACCESS).I have not mentioned ONE of them,for the sole reason that they have not declared themselves our ENEMY and that our destruction is their goal.COMMUNISM HAS. Is anyone stupid enough to allow a person who has threatened their family to come over to dinner?


Again,I did not advocate silencing opposing or (sniff) offensive ideas...most people don't have the wherewithall to offend me anyway.What I WOULD silence is a sworn,dedicated enemy,and WOULD exclude them from any involvement in my affairs.

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?

-----------
Edited for golden rule violations by evilqueen

 

[Ticklish9's]

Communism...

The Union of Soviet Socialist, which was indeed a communist state, promised to "crush" the US. However, Communism itself, as a political and social ideology, is not by nature diametrically opposed to the American way of life. In point of fact, many government programs are "socialized" with greater or lesser degrees of success. So while the communist governments of certain cold-war nations have declared themselves our enemy, communism itself is not inherently anti-American. One must seperate the ideas from the people who have wielded them.

 

[shark]

In a word......BULL.

Communism limits freedom of expression so as to have a "pure" core of people uncontaminated by outside influence.Does our way of life do this?

Communism maintains that the state control all programs of society. Does our society do this?

Communism dictates that all production be state controlled.Does our society do this?

Communism controls all private ownership.Does our society do this?

Communism bans currency.Does our society do this?

Communism is systematically atheistic.Is our society so?

Communism takes from the best producers and spreads it out among all,
so that all turn out even.This thwarts private initiative and incentive.Does our society do this?

Communism,in order to maintain a dedicated populace,shields all outside influence and "directs" the thought and direction of its population.This results in state control of lifestyle choices,lack of civil rights,and cessation of self-determination in return for the success of the communist state.Does our society do this?

As far as government programs,many are socialist...all that tells me is that socialist influences got involved successfully.In no way does that mean they are an integral part of a free society.We have also previously determined that socialism and communism are different.

Comparing the control systems of communism with a free society and saying they are not diametrically opposed is being blind or naive at best.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

bravo! here here shark!

i agree with you 100%. your arguement is great.
i share your passion in this arena. it's a shame others don't see what we see.
steve

 

[Ticklish9's]

And yet...

...the control systems of communism are precisely what you propose to utilize to remove this threat. If we start destroying political groups, how are we any better than the communists? The nature of freedom is such that it entails a certain degree of unique dangers. One such danger is that the free people will vote themselves away their freedoms. Enforced "freedom" isn't freedom at all. Americans must be free to choose ANY political system - no one can pick and choose which ones are the "good" ones.
The supression of communism by the central government of a nation worked successfully in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy precisely because the populations of those nations were prepared to sacrifice their freedom to choose other forms of government. We see where that led....

 

[Daumantas]

Look, all you fans of Archie or Reggie can make all the arguments you want...I still say the Archie Comics just wouldn't be the same without Jughead. Just TRY and refute it. 🙂

 

[Dave2112]

They got rid of Jughead?!?!?!?!?

Those fuckers....

 

[shark]

All right,this is it.Listen up.I will try to do this without having people complaining to moderators and having my posts chopped up. I am apparently not getting through yet,so I will be as clear as possible.

In defending my people and nation from sworn enemies,I WILL use ANY means at my disposal.If that means using their tactics against them,FINE.Any less would mean that I am unworthy of being their protector.

I do NOT care if I am considered better than the communists...only victorious against an enemy.

Exclusion of communist ideas CAN be done without harming ANY of our rights,as the communists are NOT a benign part of our social operation, and were not part of it before this century,as they did not exist as an ENEMY force or nation.

It takes a major piece of misunderstanding to compare our society to Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.As I posted before,you might as well give the Al-Queda their own state and representative in DC.

You and others may not like my approach,but that's not one of my major (or even minor) concerns.The preservation if our way of life would be,and that includes destroying ENEMIES.If this offends anyone,that's just tough cookies.If you disagree,tough cookies.Anyone who would not do what is necessary to preserve their nation,people,and way of life is unworthy of their trust.

END OF STORY.

I will assume that THIS post hasn't offended any of our more sensitive members,or those who can't figure out that the replies to my posts ARE THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN,just with different wording.

How'd I do THIS time?