Homosexual marriage

[Haltickling]

glimpse into history

A little historic info about homosexuality: In ancient Greece, male homosexuality was well accepted by society. Well, in fact, it was kind of pedophilia in it's original meaning (paidos=boy), as younger men were encouraged to have their first sexual experiences with an older man, who also acted as a teacher and mentor. Some famous philosophers like Socrates and Aristoteles even recommended such, as an enrichment for both parties.

In ancient Rome, they had the cult of 'Vestal Virgins' who actually were priestesses of the female God Vesta. They were never to be touched by any man, but they were free to have sex with each other. Some Roman writers like Ovid reveled in descriptions of their orgies, although the distinction between fiction and fact seems rather blurred…

The Old Testament and the Judaic religion frowned on homosexuality, and the Islam copied their views. From the Middle Ages on, male homosexuality was strictly forbidden in Christianity, too. The reason: At that time, the general 'scientific' presumption considered the semen to contain a fully developed (yet very small) human being, the so-called 'Homunculus'. Not implanting this seed properly in a female womb (e.g. during gay sex) was equal to killing that mini-human. That's also the reason why male masturbation was forbidden.

Women were not believed to have any sexual feelings at all in those days. If a woman actually showed signs of her lust, an evil demon must have taken possession of her. So how could women have any lesbian sex? Anyway, even if they had sex with another woman, it had no consequences for the 'Homunculus'. Female sexuality, including lesbianism, could simply be ignored.

Even as science progressed and the real procreation facts were known, the church (and thus the whole society) ignored this knowledge and held on to their original view of homosexuality and masturbation. These prohibitions found their way into all law books and penal codices, and the aversion against homosexuality was ingrained for many centuries. In many countries, male homosexuality was even a reason for the death penalty, while female homosexuality usually resulted in being treated in an asylum.

Homosexual relations are still forbidden in many East European countries, but nobody there cares about this law anyway. It's also still prohibited in some US States, if I'm not mistaken (well, in some counties even oral sex in marriage is forbidden 🙂). But slowly, the world realizes that the old views about homosexuality are simply obsolete.

Just a little glimpse into history for a better understanding of homosexuality and its role in our society…

 

[BigJim]

Thanks for that Hal, it was quite thought inspiring. You might also be interested to know that in Iowa it is considered rape if a man and woman copulate without being married. I know of a case where this law was enforced. The guy got 5 years in the state pen and his girlfriend was refused visiting access because the law regarded her as a victim. Crazy huh? The day they stop letting religion affect archaic and irrelavent laws is the day when' socirety will be a whole lot happier.

 

[siamese dream]

on religious beliefs related to this topic...

My feelings are that if someone says "I believe homosexuality is wrong, and homosexual marriage should not be allowed, because of what I've been taught by my religion", then I can't really argue with them. I used to try with my mom, but all that did was cause both of us to get really upset with each other...me being upset with her for not accepting that I don't agree with her religious views; her being upset with me for "wandering astray" from Christianity, the religion she raised me with, due to much of my disagreements with a lot of that particular religion's teachings. I figured out that it would be better for me to just accept that she believes certain things and that I don't, and to not try to convince her that her beliefs are 'wrong'. Religion is always extremely personal to someone, and someone challenging the issue based on religious beliefs will only make them fight more fiercely to defend their beliefs. I'm guessing Krokus responded "No" to the topic and didn't choose to give back-up reasons because of personal and/or religious beliefs, so I can't argue with him. He has the right to his opinion, and the right to just answer the question and not go into the reasons behind the answer.

However, if someone tries to argue the issue from a legal/social standpoint, then that's where I'll try to poke some holes in their arguement, because I feel the opposite way and that's what debate is all about 😉.

I guess now the next logical question would be, what can be done to really change the law? There are those who don't want the laws to be changed, but they are already ahead, because currently, states and/or countries where homosexual marriage is recognized as a legal union are in the vast minority. Is the issue even being addressed by the U.S. federal and state government? Do most states even have this on the ballots to be voted on? I mean, it would be hard to try to change the law if we aren't even able to vote on it. So what are some good suggestions? I don't know much about politics, and would love to hear from those who do know a little more and their suggestions about what can be done to change the laws.

I'm a firm believer that if the people of a country believe their laws are wrong, then they absolutely have the right to try to change the law. But I'm not sure where to start.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

against

i believe homosexuality is imoral, and should be illeagle.
i have known many homosexual, and lesbian people, and i agree with strels point that most didn't want a comminted relationship.
i have become online friends with a couple of homosexual men. they are great guys, and i respect them both. but i don't think any homosexual should be alowed the same rights as heterosexual couples.
child raising is out of the question.
my religous back ground is jewish/athiest.
this is a very sore subject for me, and i hesitated before answering it. kind of like a moth to the flame, i couldn't stay away.
steve

 

[BigJim]

Strel, I have a question for you.

Why is something that affects no-one else and doesn't harm you immoral? More importantly, when you are a part of a sexual community that has often felt ostracised and lonely before we found each other, how can you say that other people's freedom of sexual expression should be forcefully regulated by law? 😕

 

[BellaRisa]

Um, Steve?

i believe homosexuality is imoral, and should be illeagle.
i have known many homosexual, and lesbian people, and i agree with strels point that most didn't want a comminted relationship.
i have become online friends with a couple of homosexual men. they are great guys, and i respect them both. but i don't think any homosexual should be alowed the same rights as heterosexual couples.
child raising is out of the question.
my religous back ground is jewish/athiest.
this is a very sore subject for me, and i hesitated before answering it. kind of like a moth to the flame, i couldn't stay away.
steve

I understand that you feel homosexuality is immoral-I don't agree but I understand that's your POV-but why should it be illegal?? And why shouldn't they be allowed to raise children? As one of those children, I'm curious about your reasoning.

You say that the gay/lesbian people you know don't want commited relationships, just like many straight people-but we're talking about those who DO. Why shouldn't they be allowed to legally marry their lovers the way I married mine and you married yours?

Since the divorce rate is above 50% and skyrocketing, seems to me that straight folks can't exactly cast the first stone on the whole 'commited relationship' issue

Bella, happy straight child of awesome gay parents

 

[BigJim]

Re: Um, Steve?

I understand that you feel homosexuality is immoral-I don't agree but I understand that's your POV-but why should it be illegal?? And why shouldn't they be allowed to raise children? As one of those children, I'm curious about your reasoning.

You say that the gay/lesbian people you know don't want commited relationships, just like many straight people-but we're talking about those who DO. Why shouldn't they be allowed to legally marry their lovers the way I married mine and you married yours?

Since the divorce rate is above 50% and skyrocketing, seems to me that straight folks can't exactly cast the first stone on the whole 'commited relationship' issue

Bella, happy straight child of awesome gay parents

*claps Bella on the shoulder and buys her the drink of her choice*

I could'nt have put it half as good as that. 🙂

 

[Haltickling]

We're all the products of the society whom we were raised by; by the education and example of our parents, teachers, friends, and so on. That's not so easy to shake off. As I said before in my post, the aversion against homosexuality has been ingrained deeply over centuries. Most of us were taught morals by our parents, our teachers, and clerical influences. Most of us were literally 'conditioned' to differ between right and wrong, and that's very important.

This 'conditioning' includes homosexuality as being 'morally wrong', and no amount of logical arguments will change the moral feelings if they were imbedded firm enough. I applaud all those people who managed to overcome this barrier; people who can jump those ingrained barriers are responsible for most innovations in our society. People used to think the Earth is flat, that Kings rule by divine right, that women have no right to vote.

But this should not lead to condemning people whose moral feelings are too strong to abandon. After all, emotionally differing between right and wrong is one of the key pillars for preventing us from crime and other evil. I respect Steve's attitude, although I disagree.

However, we should all find intolerance 'wrong' and more tolerance 'right'. But we've still to walk a long way to get there, all of us. It takes time. And mutual respect.

As dvnc would say: It's all about love.

 

[TicklingDuo]

The question was asked about what can be done to change the laws or to promote the possibility of bringing up a vote. While this is definitely something that needs to happen at some point, I suspect that some changes will have to take place in the thinking process of many of the homophobic autocrats currently in office before it does.

As for questioning Strel and Areenactor about their feelings...Aking for reasons is one thing (though not all can even put that into words, it just IS). But, challenging them in more than a friendly conversational fashion on the correctness of their views IMHO is wrong. I'd be willing to bet that we all have at least one thing that we feel very strongly about that is beyond explaination. This is a great thread, dealing with a sensative topic. It would be a shame to see it turn into a fight.

Ann

 

[shark]

A few points

After checking,Pennsylvania does not recognize gay marriage.

I feel that marriage is a union for heterosexual couples.I don't care if gays become committed as long as they keep their philosophy to themselves and their hands off me.Gay men are highly promiscuous, as demonstrated by the AIDS levels in the US.Hell,many of them don't even try to hide it.I don't see the big deal about their wanting to be married at all.Without getting into the details right now,I don't think gay couples should raise children.I have no doubt that some would make better parents than some straight couples,but that's how I see it.
From various sources,the divorce rate can be considered misleading. While the overall rate is above 50%,the claim is that it is only about 20% if one excludes those who marry more than twice.The reasoning is that the multiple marriages were the product of a less than committed effort on one,or both,parties' fault.
Bella's and Jim's posts reminded me of different reports and exposees on biblical laws.Many had nothing to do with religion.The law about the "wet dream" scenario was considered to be more about hygiene and public health,as were similar laws about a woman's period.There was a lack of sanitary practices,water supply for washing at will,and certainly no laundromats around.
The rowdy soldiers story doesn't sound familiar,but it is similar to Lot and his daughters.The theologians explained that this followed cultural custom.The peoples of the time were largely nomadic.When a person welcomed a guest into the home,the guest's safety was of paramount importance,the responsibility was second to none.This is why Lot offered his daughters to the crowd rather than let his guests
have harm come to them.At least in the Bible I have,the preface tells that one can't take the Bible literally,and must know history,ancient law and custom,and languages and speech to really understand it.This can be confusing,since the examples of modern societies that have gone the atheistic route have created more hardship and war than anyone else....like the Nazis and communists.
There is nothing more tempting than believing that there is no retribution in the hereafter,and your actions are only as bad as you believe they are.
As far as religion affecting the law,churches didn't make our laws. We and our legislators did.This is the one of the misunderstandings I had pointed out in another thread.Frankly,I have never met the human being who was capable of building a society any better than the one we have built with the Bible,Constitution,and common law as a base.Give me nothing to lose,and nobody to answer to,and I will do whatever I please. Like it or not,without some level of "fear of the Lord",you have problems.

 

[BellaRisa]

Uh....yeah

There is a truly wonderful book called "The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible" by Ruth Hurmence Green, since reading it I've understood christianity much better and my own views became much clearer. I've concluded that common sense will win out eventually with us humans, even if we're slow to get there; blacks are no longer slaves, women can vote, and at some point gays will be allowed the rights that they've deserved all along. I agree with Ann in that it would be a shame to see this thread turn sour, though I hope people won't sugar coat their views for the sake of a more touchy-feely thread 😉

I've made my views known, I'm out.

Bella

 

[BigJim]

Well, some gay people may be promiscous, but no more or less than some heterosexuals. Yes Aquired Immuno Deficiency Syndrome do have higher rates among gay men. That's largely because anal sex is more likely to cause bleeding because the rectum isn't as naturally elastic as the vagina. Blood transfers HIV far more easily than any other bodily fluid. I'm sure gay people would be happy to keep their "creed" away from us, as long as we keep ours away from them.

Nice theory about the laws on cleanliness meaning more about sanitary conditions, but it ain't true. The Bible very clearly refers to people as "ritually unclean". Nothing to do with germs or disease, more to do with the fact that the dreaded wanger-demon had reared his ugly head in the night and made them decide to spill that fluid that was so precious. Such a thing was considered spiritually unclean, and was more about purifying the soul of unclean thoughts than purifying the beef bayonet of e-coli.

I do agree about needing some sort of fear about the hearafter to keep someone in line. As far as I'm concerned though, my higher self will be judging myself. If I do negative things that create negative energy around me, then I'll have less battery life in the afterlife. If I create positive energy, then I'll have more.

 

[Oblesklk]

Marriage is, by definition, the union of a man and a woman. Period.

Used to be, no doubt about that.

But fortunately we, as a society, have changed. We've evolved. Marriage is simply a byproduct of societal values. And values have also evolved quite a bit in the past couple generations. Our relationships have become more open, as will our laws that govern them.

In my eyes, marriage exists primarily for tax and estate planning purposes. Other than that, it's just a piece of paper. Whether you're committed to one person or not for the rest of your days is up to you. No other entity can prescribe your fate. So I'm not altogether sure why it's still illegal.

But as always, the winds of change will force us, as a people, to rule out illogical bodies of law and outmoded ways of thinking. It's inevitable, given time.

 

[siamese dream]

Re: A few points

After checking,Pennsylvania does not recognize gay marriage.

Yes. I was mistaken on this. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but after further investigation, I think Vermont is actually the state that voted to legalize recognizing a gay marriage as a legal union, and not Pennsylvania. Also, Hawaii may only be trying to get legistaltion for this issue, I'm not sure if they have legalized it yet or not.

Sorry for my mistake on this, I live very far away from the states I had mentioned and don't know much about their laws, just what I had heard, and I may have got mixed up about some things.

 

[Krokus]

Re: Re: Well

Why Krokus? What are your reasons for having that opinion?

I do not think it is right, and I consider homosexuality to be a Sin. Your not born gay, that is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard. They choose to be gay, and that is a Sin. I sure as hell do not want a couple of fruits representing the "Freedom" of this country.

 

[grippedchimp]

Here's a little fuel to the fire.
Which is considered more unholy? A gay couple, or a priest who has sex with children?
Isn't divorce considered a sin in the first place?
Does the bible regard paedophilia a bigger sin than homosexuality?
Doesn't adultery, which is a sin, occur more in straight relationships than in gay ones?
If your best friend admitted he/she is gay, does that immediately make him/her your enemy?

I'll admit, I'm not a bible-basher, but I do believe in God and Jesus, as I'm a Filipino Catholic. The bible supposedly teaches us about the evils in the world, but with time, do more evils occur that the bible cannot cover (paedophilia, twisting religion)? And I know some of you like to ogle naked women or dig porn, but is that a form of, how you say, coveting a neighbour's wife? And what are the general views of transvestism?

And Krokus, that is a poor argument for a homophobic. Why do gays constantly live in denial before they come out? Who knows, someone close to you may come out. I suppose it reflects your views about smoking. I'd say learn to tolerate it.

I'd like to conclude that marriage, in my view, is bonding a loving couple, whether gay or straight. I'll admit that I was homophobic when I was an early-mid teen, until my ex-girlfriend helped me understand. Maybe my points could come to nothing, but I tried...

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: Well

I do not think it is right, and I consider homosexuality to be a Sin. Your not born gay, that is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard. They choose to be gay, and that is a Sin. I sure as hell do not want a couple of fruits representing the "Freedom" of this country.

Prove it. (Apart from the scriptures which are not scientifically proven histories.)All you have for that is your own opinion based on awful and mind-imprisoning predjudices.(sp?)

Nothing will change your opinion I'm sure, but that is quite possibly the most offensive non-troll diatribe I've ever heard on the TMF.

 

[siamese dream]

Re: Re: Re: Well

I do not think it is right, and I consider homosexuality to be a Sin. Your not born gay, that is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard. They choose to be gay, and that is a Sin. I sure as hell do not want a couple of fruits representing the "Freedom" of this country.

Well, I couldn't argue with you when you just said "no", but I can say a couple things to this. Your personal views on what is a sin, and what isn't, are none of my business. On "Freedom": I believe our constitution states that "all men are created equal". This would include gay men, I would hope. However, our country has a long, sad history of oppression, hatred and intolerance of those outside the rich, white male Christians who were 'at the top of the food chain', so to speak. Think about all the horrible injustices in American history against indians, black people, jews, japanese americans, women, AND homosexuals. But, we have changed a lot in our tolerance towards others and I think we are moving toward a society which really does represent equality, and I hope I can be a part of that move.

On being born gay vs. choice...this is one that could be argued back and fourth for infinity. I'm not sure if homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality is something you're born with. I have discussed it with others before, and I think an interesting theory is that it develops during early childhood, when you first begin to have social interaction with other children your own age (the start of school). I think it's part of who and what you feel attracted to at that age, that translates into a mature sexuality when you're an adult. My gay friends all say they've felt these things "for as long as they can remember", just as I've felt certain things related to my sexuality "for as long as I can remember". That includes tickling, and it may even be something that develops during the time period I described.
Why would a person, as an adult, make a conscious choice to be gay? Why would you choose a lifestyle that would cause others to hate you, discriminate against you, and in the very worst cases, commit violence against you for your sexuality? I remember what it was like in high school for my gay friends, they all went through hell on a daily basis, and for my first two years of school there was a huge rumor that I was a lesbian, and so I went through the same thing, even though I'm not a lesbian. If we could have "chosen" anything, it would be to be left the hell alone, but we had no choice. I guess that's what you get for growing up in a small conservative Kansas town and going to high school in a small-town conservative Kansas high school.

Also... "fruits"????

What are we in third grade??? Though I guess if you can say that, then I can say that I certainly don't want a couple of BIGOTS representing the freedom of this country.

 

[Strelnikov]

Quoting Oblesklk:
"But fortunately we, as a society, have changed."

I call most of the social changes we've seen since 1965 something other than fortunate. Calamitous would be closer to the truth. But I've said enough about it in this thread and others. I'm out, too.

Strelnikov

 

[BigJim]

Quoting Oblesklk:
"But fortunately we, as a society, have changed."

I call most of the social changes we've seen since 1965 something other than fortunate. Calamitous would be closer to the truth. But I've said enough about it in this thread and others. I'm out, too.

Strelnikov

Your opinion. Nothing else, nothing more and certainly not enough to suggest that we should curtail the personal freedoms of free-born citizens.

 

[dvnc]

Been too busy t'read GenDis in a while. Nearly missed this one.

Glad I didn't.

Like Ms. Bella, my mom is homosexual. I had a fine upbringing, and know many folks in gay community who do well for one another. I know many that don't, too, just like the heterosexual community.

Clearly, I've no issue with what consenting adults do, behind closed doors. I don't sweat public displays of affection. Beats seein' folks get intolerant about something they don't understand.

It's love. That's what it's all about. It's all about the love, and if you don't know this, you're missin' somethin' grand in this life.

As for the religious aspect, anyone wanting to argue, to cast stones, should read what's not cool by your own faith. Readin' them tomes is very educational.

Folks, we're a deviant subculture. When you're ready to point fingers at folks diggin' their own gender, ponder whether you're being hypocritical. Do you dig tickling sexually? Bondage? Feet? Armpits?

Is that "normal"? Bible accepted? Nope.

Peace, love and understanding will carry farther.

 

[Krokus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

Well, I couldn't argue with you when you just said "no", but I can say a couple things to this. Your personal views on what is a sin, and what isn't, are none of my business. On "Freedom": I believe our constitution states that "all men are created equal". This would include gay men, I would hope. However, our country has a long, sad history of oppression, hatred and intolerance of those outside the rich, white male Christians who were 'at the top of the food chain', so to speak. Think about all the horrible injustices in American history against indians, black people, jews, japanese americans, women, AND homosexuals. But, we have changed a lot in our tolerance towards others and I think we are moving toward a society which really does represent equality, and I hope I can be a part of that move.

On being born gay vs. choice...this is one that could be argued back and fourth for infinity. I'm not sure if homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality is something you're born with. I have discussed it with others before, and I think an interesting theory is that it develops during early childhood, when you first begin to have social interaction with other children your own age (the start of school). I think it's part of who and what you feel attracted to at that age, that translates into a mature sexuality when you're an adult. My gay friends all say they've felt these things "for as long as they can remember", just as I've felt certain things related to my sexuality "for as long as I can remember". That includes tickling, and it may even be something that develops during the time period I described.
Why would a person, as an adult, make a conscious choice to be gay? Why would you choose a lifestyle that would cause others to hate you, discriminate against you, and in the very worst cases, commit violence against you for your sexuality? I remember what it was like in high school for my gay friends, they all went through hell on a daily basis, and for my first two years of school there was a huge rumor that I was a lesbian, and so I went through the same thing, even though I'm not a lesbian. If we could have "chosen" anything, it would be to be left the hell alone, but we had no choice. I guess that's what you get for growing up in a small conservative Kansas town and going to high school in a small-town conservative Kansas high school.

Also... "fruits"????

What are we in third grade??? Though I guess if you can say that, then I can say that I certainly don't want a couple of BIGOTS representing the freedom of this country.

-My opinion will not change, and you can go ahead and call me immature, and by the way, white people get the shaft alot as well, so don't even start to pull that "it's only minoritys" bullshit. As far as the offensive remark goes Jim, I have not, will not, and refuse to hide my views for the sake of acceptance. That is what is wrong with this country, too many refuse to fight for what they believe in, for fear of being beat up, or killed, or whatever. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. As for the 3rd grade statement, I will make fun of anyone I want to, and my thoughts ARE NOT up for debate. As for the "rich white christian" remark...I have to be honest...I have never been more pissed off...EVER in my lifetime then I was after reading that. I get so sick and tired of all this non-stop scapegoated whining that indians, black people, jews, japanese americans, women, AND homosexuals do. Yea, we know your SO mistreated....Damn...I just feel SOOO sorry for you....yadda yadda yadda shut the hell up. Why don't they do something about it, those little whiners. There IS a reason why people are rich you know, they actually WORK for what they get. If your so friggin' unhappy with the way you are treated in America, there are 2 options, get the hell out, or stop whining and do something about it. Stand up for yourself, and make you voice be heard. I have many "Radical" opinions that I have told MANY people. My parents, friends, and others. I think that this country would benefit from a Dictator, or Tyrant, if you will. But I do not go preaching it all over the place. So, if you are mistreated, do something, don't sit and cry and moan.If you choose to insult me for my outlook on things, well, then you can get lost. There, now im done.


- I would just like to add, I think the worst thing in the world that a person can do...is turn the other cheek, and "just accept things the way they are" because you can't change them. I say screw that. I do know that this post will fuel a heavy fire, and I may get in a little trouble with the mods, but that will only help motivate me even more.

 

[ShiningIce]

What would you do if you had a sibling who was gay? or a son? a daughter? Would you disown them?? No one's whining if theres a problem rest assured I as a "minority" will deal with it. A few months ago Krokus when we feuded did I EVER turn the other cheek with you?? NO. You respect strength right, well then you should damn well respect those who were born at a disadvantage wether it was because of race, religion, or sexual preferance. They all had to FIGHT, fight against hate, against laws, against what some people called the word of God. Some died fighting, some lived to see their struggle accomplish something miraculous. Now Krokus notice how I didnt insult or flame you.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

As far as the offensive remark goes Jim, I have not, will not, and refuse to hide my views for the sake of acceptance.

No one is asking ou to Krokus, or did you miss that little detail? No-one can restrict your views, you have a given right to hold and express them. All we'd like to know is, why do you have to resort to the sort of mud-slinging and name-calling that is normally reserved for a five year old throwing a temper tantrum, to get them over?

As far as radical views go, it is enshrined in law for you to believe that you're the re-born Christ if you choose to. But you believeing that the law should curtail people born with the same level of freedom as you; and you believing that people's lifestyles are inherantly wrong, should take a loooooong hard look at your own soul.

Gay people cannot help their sexuality any more than I can help having a fetish for female feet and tickling. It was something I was programmed with. Granted, it might not have been decided at birth, but it was NEVER a conscious choice.

If there's anyone out there who believes that their views should affect the private rights of people to govern their personal lives how they see fit, remember there are people who are even more hard line than you, who would condemn YOU as deviants because of your tickling quirk.

Think about it, and try not to act like an infant who thinks the world revolves around them! 😡

 

[JoBelle]

Oh my! It's been a while since I heard such anger spewed out like that.

Krokus, no one is telling you that you have to embrace homosexuality. BUT...they are asking that you have a little compassion for your fellow man. Is that so hard? There is a simple word. RESPECT. It goes a LONG Way. It would be alot easier for me to see the validity of your points if you're weren't so nasty. Try lightening up...take a pill...take freakin' NAP!

Joby

On the note of homosexuality, aside from marriage. I seem to recall years ago a report on tv (Discovery channel, perhaps?) that animals in the wild had been observed trying to mate with animals of the same sex. I'm NOT comparing gay and lesbian humans to animals....I'm just trying to share a view I heard "way back when." Animals mate by instinct. It's inborn....SO....if these types of things occur in the "wild"....then why not with humans as well? I'll have to look around for that info I'm talking about. Of course there are people who will dispute it, but if it was true, I find that VERY intersting. 🙂 Cheers!