In Defense of Michael Vick

[Dr. Vollin]

I'm no Michael Vick fan. I have never seen him do anything that amazing. In fact, I had him as my first fantasy quarterback pick two years in a row, and he let me down both years with injuries and lameness. but in all fairness, he bets on some dog fights that he arranged and gets kicked out of the leauge, while professional athletes are doing far worse everyday and not being punished for it. Football and basketball players are getting high, taking steroids, raping college girls, wrecking cars, detroying property, and not getting kicked out of the league. Some are convicted of rape, go to jail, and come back to play when they get out. Do we as a people value our dogs more than we value our daughters?

Aside from rape, none of the things you listed can remotely be compared to, not just betting on some dog fights, but arranging those fights and killing the animals who didn't "measure up". I just don't understand people who still say Vick did nothing worse than place bets, or that he didn't kill any dogs - was his co-defendant lying about that?

Also, I'd like to know which players have been convicted of rape, gone to jail, and come back to play when they get out. Some names would make your statement more credible.

 

[jaba]

Vick deserves everything he has coming to him. It's possible that he might rehabilitate himself and his character someday, but I don't think pious words are enough.

Redmage, I agree with just about all of your arguement in your prior post, and most of the argument in this passage that I quoted here, specifically.

I personally think that Vick should get more jail time than he actually will serve, but here's the issue that I wonder about.
If Vick were ordinary Joe Blow, he would serve his sentenced prison time, say 5 years, and go back, perhaps to another job as a pipefitter, or whatever....if not at the same company, then for another one.....

But Vick was the second highest paid player in the NFL, with a 130 million dollar contract and a 22 million "in the bank" signing bonus. All of that has now gone away, (we are talking his siblings and grand kids possible college educations, among other endowments and endowments to future charities....he did donate to area charities) and perhaps he and his family and any beneficiaries deserve to lose all of that for his actions.....

But there are players in the NFL who have killed people through drunk driving accidents, and others who are complicit in murders and other very serious felonies against humans, and they are padded up in uniform after a year and back in the huddle making far less than Vick made.

So I guess what I'm asking, and at the risk of being deemed a "Vick apologist"(not by you, Redmage)...

Is his eventual total punishment "fair", given the punishment and serious nature of the crimes other NFL (and NBA) pro athletes have received for their offenses?

Should Vick be permanently banned from his workplace (the NFL) for his actions?

There is a strong argument that Vick should be banned from football, along with other serious felons, to set a tone and show other players that serious felony conduct will not be tolerated, no matter the talent level. I believe the NFL should have that right to ban players, and they do, to protect whatever image the NFL has left.....

But in the current NFL situation on sanctions, is Vick's soon to be received punishment "fair", in light of the relatively light sentences of some of his NFL counterparts?

 

[RobAce]

But there are players in the NFL who have killed people through drunk driving accidents, and others who are complicit in murders and other very serious felonies against humans, and they are padded up in uniform after a year and back in the huddle making far less than Vick made.

I am aware of one player who killed someone during a DUI. I am also aware of 2 players (Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis) who served time for conspiracy charges and such things. Also Tank Johnson had weapon charges recently.
This is now a new NFL, Goodell is making this a league where tolerance for criminal acts is close to zero. Anything prior to the new commissioner is someone else's watch.
But heres one more thing for everyone, its seems to have been forgotten.
Mark Chmura, funny how no one remembers him now. A white player, a tight end for the Green Bay Packers, here is his story.....

Although his five-year contract was not due to expire until 2003, Chmura was released by the Packers in 2000. Chmura was accused of having inappropriate sexual contact on April 8, 2000 at a Waukesha Catholic Memorial High School prom party with the then 17-year-old babysitter of his children. Ultimately, Chmura was tried and found not guilty of all charges. Two days after being acquitted of child enticement and third-degree sexual assault, Mark Chmura acknowledged that his behavior at a post-prom party "wasn't something a married man should do."

He never played again, no one picked him up. And he was found not-guilty.
Just some food for thought.

Rob

 

[Rock18]

I think it's funny to hear people defending Vick when he wouldn't even defend himself. The reason.....because he was guilty! And I have not heard of him being banned for life from the NFL, so saying that his career is over is not even an issue at this point because he is suspended, not banned from the league. With that being said, how many people can say that if they went to jail, for committing a felony of any kind, that they would walk back into their old jobs like nothing happened? In the real world that does not happen. I am not saying they can't find jobs, but it might not be what they had before. And no one is saying Vick, if he is out of the league, can't get a job doing something else. He has that degree from VaTech, right??
Furthermore, I am sick of hearing about him making a "mistake". He did not make a mistake.....it's who he is. Since he was in college he has had character issues and has always been criticized for the crowd he hangs around with, and that was almost 8 years ago. Nothing has changed (obviously). He even lied when this whole thing started! Once he found out his "boys" were going to throw him under the bus to protect themselves, he apparently remembered he DID have something to do with that entire operation after all....what a great guy, real stand up guy.
I can go on all day about this whole issue (as I'm sure many of us can), but I'll end with this.....for anyone that watched the entire 1st round of this year's NFL Draft, there was a segment in which they interviewed Vick, and the entire interview revolved around his increased maturity, his better decision making (off the field), and his increased understanding of the role that he plays in young people's life. It was a great interview and it seemed heartfelt and sincere. For someone as indifferent as I was towards at that time I actually became a fan of Vick. Now this has all gone down and I think the irony is comical. But, once again, it goes back to the point that Vick is who he is, a despicable person, and it goes way beyond the dog fighting incident.

 

[maniactickler]

Killing animals is killing animals. Vick is no worse than a person who hunts animals. Most people choose to shoot the animals, but Vick and his friends had their own methods. What Vick did was wrong but don't make it seem like he is worse than any other person who kills animals as a hobby.

You cant compare hunting with what Vick did. hunting is a helpful way to control the wild animal population.

 

[natural tickler]

ok, if I get nailed for this, then fine

All through this scenario, one question keeps popping in my head:

Why do people care more about the lives of animals than humans??

It seems that whenever something happens to animals, the person comitting the act gets crucified, but when something happens to humans, we act like that's commonplace, almost normal activity.

Look, I know its in our nature to destroy ourselves, but let's get some proper perspective here

Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, but did I hear any of you call for his suspension?? call for him to be put in jail and throw away the key?? No

Ray Lewis was accused of obstruction of justice, for two people being murdered did any of you call for his head??? No

Well, seems to me where your priorities are

OK, you've succeeded in breaking Michael Vick down, and polarized him as a animal killer, and lowest form of life. Now the question I now have is since you have done this, what have you done to help him out, build him up again, yanno, the second chance theory. What have any of you done to reach out and help someone in need. Didn't think so. You're like the media, good in hyping someone up, breaking them down, and do nothing in terms of rehabilitation

And newsflash, people, this situation is causing great divide in racial relations, because of this. I guarantee you, if this wasn't a person of color, I guarantee you there wouldn't be this much hubbub over it.

But then again it might be, because you value an animals life over a humans. I wonder where we are on the food chain, because we sure as hell aren't on the top of it

My 0.02 cents, returnable if not satisfied

 

[drew70]

Fair is fair, Natural. I think he should get the same second chances he gave those dogs. Oh, wait. THEY didn't get a second chance did they. They were mamed, brutalized, and killed.

This has nothing to do with race. It's go nothing to do with crimes against people. People at least have a chance of defending themselves. Those dogs had none. Those dogs commited no crimes and were completely innocent. What Vick did was horendous beyond words.

Rehabilitation? Fuck that. Send his sorry ass to the chair.

 

[jaba]

And newsflash, people, this situation is causing great divide in racial relations, because of this. I guarantee you, if this wasn't a person of color, I guarantee you there wouldn't be this much hubbub over it.

Actually, N T, here's the rumors I have been hearing on a few talk radio shows...they are only rumors, but they could be plausable....

Prosecutors, obviously, wanted to throw the book at Vick, but it was made clear in no uncertain terms that there would be racially charged public protests over the perception that Vick was being excessively charged because he was a "prominent wealthy black public figure", which could potentially taint jury pools and sway some of the court of public opinion in sympathy and in favor of Vick. So, to avoid a potentially disruptive racially charged trial involving a rich defendant who could afford the type of defense which would result in fewer convictions on the charges anyway, coupled with the fact that the witnesses against Vick were in fact trying to save their own asses and were of questionable credibility, prosecutors opted for the reduced charge plea deal they offered Vick, to which Vick plead guilty.

Again, this is just one of the many rumors that are swirling around on talk radio, but it sounds plausable.....

 

[kis123]

Put it this way: A lot of people have said that animal rights activists don't care what happens to people. Can you imagine what would've happened to Vick if his victims had been human? If he'd been kidnapping children, caging them, forcing them to fight, torturing them to death? It's obscene to even consider. Anyone caught doing such a thing would be lucky to survive long enough to be sentenced to death. But because Vick's victims were animals, he'll pay a fine, serve a few years in jail, and be free to do just about anything he wants, except being paid millions of dollars to throw a football. That's hardly excessive.

He didn't kidnap children now did he? Why are people comparing humans to animals? They are not the same even though many try to make it the same. Animals aren't furry people, they are animals and are simply not on the same level. People put them on that level but they don't belong there--people are people and animals are animals!

I didn't say he shouldn't be punished for what he did. I said he shouldn't lose his career over it and I stand by exactly that. If these guys are getting away with drugs, rape, murder (involvement or not), and other heinous crimes, treat it all the same. Punish them all across the board, not just one who pissed off animal activists.

 

[kis123]

This is actually an easy answer for me kis.... it is not my say or anyone else's on if Vick keeps his job or not. It is the company that make the decision. It is his right to have a job, but not his right to have this job. Being an NFL player the person takes the risks associated with it. If other people murder, dui, cheat, steal or whatever the individual company has the right to fire or keep on said person. The NFL is within its rights to terminate him permanently if they choose to do so. Playing football in the NFL is a privilege not a right.
No one has said that he can never have a career, just that he might not be able to play football. If he spends 2 years in jail and can play again but no one wants to pay him, its not that he can not work it is just no one wants to take a chance.
Again it is not his right to play in the NFL. He made the choices, very bad ones and must deal with the consequences. If because of his actions no one wants to hire him, dont blame the companies, blame the actions he made.Rob

But football IS his career and he shouldn't lose it over this!!

Punish him, jail him, fine him, and the number of things I even suggested as reasonable punishments for what he's done. But no one should lose a career over this!

 

[maniactickler]

He didn't kidnap children now did he? Why are people comparing humans to animals? They are not the same even though many try to make it the same. Animals aren't furry people, they are animals and are simply not on the same level. People put them on that level but they don't belong there--people are people and animals are animals!

I didn't say he shouldn't be punished for what he did. I said he shouldn't lose his career over it and I stand by exactly that. If these guys are getting away with drugs, rape, murder (involvement or not), and other heinous crimes, treat it all the same. Punish them all across the board, not just one who pissed off animal activists.

I agree with you on this. some people tend to put animals on an equal level with humans. this is just not the case.

 

[jaba]

But football IS his career and he shouldn't lose it over this!!

Punish him, jail him, fine him, and the number of things I even suggested as reasonable punishments for what he's done. But no one should lose a career over this!

You know, Kis, the passage of time might make his future NFL carreer a moot point...

Michael Vick is an exceptional athlete, but after a few years in prison away from the game, coupled with any additional time away from the NFL imposed by the league, his skills are going to naturally diminish, and realistically he wont have the ability to relate, at least physically, to the new and sophisticated defenses that would confront him if he ever straps on a helmet as a quarterback again years from now. I hear that he may be considered as a servicible punt returner or player in some other capacity, but NFL teams are going to be wary and weary of the flack that they are sure to receive from animal activists, whichever team decides to take a risk and pick him up. So for all intents and purposes, his carreer may be over simply because of the time he will be forced to stay away from the game. Muhammad Ali was about the only athlete I am aware of that was able to have an exceptionally successful carreer after an extended time away from his sport. but he was one of a kind, in my opinion.....

 

[kis123]

You know, Kis, the passage of time might make his future NFL carreer a moot point...

Michael Vick is an exceptional athlete, but after a few years in prison away from the game, coupled with any additional time away from the NFL imposed by the league, his skills are going to naturally diminish, and realistically he wont have the ability to relate, at least physically, to the new and sophisticated defenses that would confront him if he ever straps on a helmet as a quarterback again years from now. I hear that he may be considered as a servicible punt returner or player in some other capacity, but NFL teams are going to be wary and weary of the flack that they are sure to receive from animal activists, whichever team decides to take a risk and pick him up. So for all intents and purposes, his carreer may be over simply because of the time he will be forced to stay away from the game. Muhammad Ali was about the only athlete I am aware of that was able to have an exceptionally successful carreer after an extended time away from his sport. but he was one of a kind, in my opinion.....

If this was anything other than animal rights politics, the man wouldn't be losing his job over it. People have a low morality tolerance when it comes to other people but no tolerance with animals? I don't understand and I never will.

But when people dress their dogs, buy them collars that can pay my car and house note, buy them strollers to travel around in, no wonder why people can't distinguish their pets from furry babies. Hell some people treat their pets better than their own children.

Oh btw, I don't hate animals at all! I have a cat and he's been with me for 12 years. But he is a cat, not my furry child and I make sure he's well cared for without bringing him to my level as a human being.

 

[kis123]

I agree with you on this. some people tend to put animals on an equal level with humans. this is just not the case.

Me and maniac agree on something???

Wheeeeeeee Doggie!!!!!!!!!

I should go out and play the lottery or something!

 

[cloudgazer2k]

Some people, like myself, have a special interest in this case for one reason: Animal abuse. I hate people that abuse animals for fun or profit. In my mind, animal abuse is right above child molestation, in which that is the lowest of the low. And should Vick lose his career for this? Yes. Because if he were a common working man, he would have been fired for the crime (mostly for good PR...who wants to admit they work alongside a dog killer?).

I could care less is Vick was white, hispanic. I could care less if Emmit Smith or Nolan Ryan had done this. Crime is crime, and wrongfully killing and abusing animals is such.

Whether you rape, kill, molest innocent children, or murder the family pet, you should go to prison, regardless of race, sex or how much you have in the bank.

And these "athletes" are supposed to be role models...

 

[brianspencer66]

I can understand some of the deep anger here over the large mistake this young man did. I think there is one point we are missing here though. We are a violent race we are a race that loves sex we are a race that teach our young people to adore those things too. We are a country in a very violent war now. Young people pick up on these things and I think Vick was a product of that. What he did was quite horrid I wont deny that. And if your an animal lover as lots of us are it can seem quite unforgivable. But we really need to understand the larger picture of how young people are taught to embrace violence and in that aspect I think Vick was a victim of that. I see young men all the time with visious pit bulls all the time walking the streets around here and god knows what they are training these animals to do. They are a status symbol in the inner city and I now see kids in the suburbs getting pit bulls too. My point is that we really need to look at the bigger picture of movies and music videos and our pop culture in general and re examine our values and the message we are sending to young people. There are people in corpaorate america that will keep feeding junk to our kids and when one of them fucks up we are ready to point our fingers at them and fail to understand why they may have did it in the first place. Its easy to say lets fry them or send them to jail or take away their lively hood. But does that solve the problem? Until we can understand that then Im afriad you will have more athletes or entertainers doing the same thing Vick was accused of doing.

 

[jaba]

As bad as the animal cruelty charges are, the gambling allegations are the charges that I think will probably nail the coffin shut on Vicks NFL carreer. The NFL takes ANY gambling allegations very seriously, (as does the NBA...I heard that the Washington Wizard's player Gilbert Arenas was severely repremanded by the NBA for making playful 5 dollar side bets with courtside NBA fans over whether Arenas would make a basketball shot during a game) and even if Vick does not plead guilty to or is convicted of gambling charges, if an internal NFL review reveals with reasonable certainty that he was engaged in illegal gambling activity, a suspension for the gambling infraction may be longer than any suspension he would sustain for the animal cruelty charges.....

 

[kis123]

Some people, like myself, have a special interest in this case for one reason: Animal abuse. I hate people that abuse animals for fun or profit. In my mind, animal abuse is right above child molestation, in which that is the lowest of the low. And should Vick lose his career for this? Yes. Because if he were a common working man, he would have been fired for the crime (mostly for good PR...who wants to admit they work alongside a dog killer?).

I could care less is Vick was white, hispanic. I could care less if Emmit Smith or Nolan Ryan had done this. Crime is crime, and wrongfully killing and abusing animals is such.

Whether you rape, kill, molest innocent children, or murder the family pet, you should go to prison, regardless of race, sex or how much you have in the bank. And these "athletes" are supposed to be role models...

If Vick was an ordinary guy, this never would've made the papers and he would get a slap on the wrist and sent home. This has nothing to do with his race but he is a popular athlete with a good reputation (until this came out). I'll stick to my POV that he doesn'nt need his career ruined over this; the animal rights activists just wanted a pound of flesh and they used their clout to get it. If they could try him for murder, they would. Pets are pets and people are people-the sooner folks figure that out the better off many would be.

 

[barefeetarebest]

If Vick was an ordinary guy, this never would've made the papers and he would get a slap on the wrist and sent home. This has nothing to do with his race but he is a popular athlete with a good reputation (until this came out). I'll stick to my POV that he doesn'nt need his career ruined over this; the animal rights activists just wanted a pound of flesh and they used their clout to get it. If they could try him for murder, they would. Pets are pets and people are people-the sooner folks figure that out the better off many would be.

i seriously don't think that you're going to get much support for this absurdity here, kis. And you obviously have some kind of serious problem with animal activist type people. You're making them out to be headhunter-Nazi's, which, okay, many of them are, but so are the ACLU and the NAACP in their own way. Do animals have rights, in your opinion?

 

[RobAce]

OK, I hope I wont ruffle any feathers here but...............

But football IS his career and he shouldn't lose it over this!!

Punish him, jail him, fine him, and the number of things I even suggested as reasonable punishments for what he's done. But no one should lose a career over this!

kis....
you can not force an employer to hire someone. If not the NFL I am sure the CFL or Arena League would hire him. I just do not see at this time an NFL team owner paying Vick to play for them. No one is taking his career away, Vick through his own actions made himself unmarketable and unwanted. He signed a code of conduct just like anyone else in the NFL and understood that. What ever punishment he receives whether its just a 1 year suspension only or a lifetime ban is up to those in charge. I personally do not care either way. I am not a avid animal lover...my kids have pets (2 goldfish), I am not a "dog" person and certainly not on the side of PETA.

If this was anything other than animal rights politics, the man wouldn't be losing his job over it. People have a low morality tolerance when it comes to other people but no tolerance with animals? I don't understand and I never will.

I agree 100%. However it is their right to show their distaste and push for action just as it is the right of any group to do the same. Politics plays a part of many things. For me it is his outright lies to the fans, his employers that is more outrageous. The NFL might have let this go with a shorter ban, but to be lied to....the way he did is what is probably going to do him in worse.
If I lied to my employer...I would be out on my ear, as Im sure you and anyone else would. I also am dumbfounded by a lot of attitudes and laws that would see a child rapist go free with the help of the ACLU, but someone that kills animals (as wrong and barbaric as it is) has no one in his corner.

We are a violent race we are a race that loves sex we are a race that teach our young people to adore those things too. We are a country in a very violent war now. Young people pick up on these things and I think Vick was a product of that.

My point is that we really need to look at the bigger picture of movies and music videos and our pop culture in general and re examine our values and the message we are sending to young people. There are people in corpaorate america that will keep feeding junk to our kids and when one of them fucks up we are ready to point our fingers at them and fail to understand why they may have did it in the first place. Its easy to say lets fry them or send them to jail or take away their lively hood.

Brian, you and I here will have to disagree and I will tell you why......
Here I see a larger problem of society, passing the blame to others. What has happened to personal responsibility. Blame the music, blame the violent images, blame the news, blame the government. If you know its wrong and against the law and still do something...thats not societies fault.

Rob

 

[lk70]

If Vick was an ordinary guy, this never would've made the papers and he would get a slap on the wrist and sent home. This has nothing to do with his race but he is a popular athlete with a good reputation (until this came out). I'll stick to my POV that he doesn'nt need his career ruined over this; the animal rights activists just wanted a pound of flesh and they used their clout to get it. If they could try him for murder, they would. Pets are pets and people are people-the sooner folks figure that out the better off many would be.

If OJ was an ordinary guy, that murder case wouldn't have made the papers either. What famous athletes do make the papers, what regular people do, doesn't. That's the world we live in.

As for pets are pets and people are people. Sure. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges but that doesn't mean one has more intrinsic value than the other. You can feel humans have more value because you're a human but in the grand ecology of it all, probably not the case. The sooner folks are able to show some true compassion and behave in a humane manner in all cases, the better off many will be. Animal, child, adult, whomever- we all deserve kindness.

 

[kis123]

If OJ was an ordinary guy, that murder case wouldn't have made the papers either. What famous athletes do make the papers, what regular people do, doesn't. That's the world we live in.

As for pets are pets and people are people. Sure. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges but that doesn't mean one has more intrinsic value than the other. You can feel humans have more value because you're a human but in the grand ecology of it all, probably not the case. The sooner folks are able to show some true compassion and behave in a humane manner in all cases, the better off many will be. Animal, child, adult, whomever- we all deserve kindness.

OJ did the murder and got away with it and he doesn't have to pay a penny to the families he hurt. How is this a true comparison?

Nothing wrong with treating animals humanely; I have a pet of my own and I do just that. I have a HUGE problem with pet worship and that's what I see a lot these days. That's NOT what they are on the earth to be, they're here to be animals and pets, not furry people.

 

[kis123]

OK, I hope I wont ruffle any feathers here but...............


kis....
you can not force an employer to hire someone. If not the NFL I am sure the CFL or Arena League would hire him. I just do not see at this time an NFL team owner paying Vick to play for them. No one is taking his career away, Vick through his own actions made himself unmarketable and unwanted. He signed a code of conduct just like anyone else in the NFL and understood that. What ever punishment he receives whether its just a 1 year suspension only or a lifetime ban is up to those in charge. I personally do not care either way. I am not a avid animal lover...my kids have pets (2 goldfish), I am not a "dog" person and certainly not on the side of PETA.


I agree 100%. However it is their right to show their distaste and push for action just as it is the right of any group to do the same. Politics plays a part of many things. For me it is his outright lies to the fans, his employers that is more outrageous. The NFL might have let this go with a shorter ban, but to be lied to....the way he did is what is probably going to do him in worse.
If I lied to my employer...I would be out on my ear, as Im sure you and anyone else would. I also am dumbfounded by a lot of attitudes and laws that would see a child rapist go free with the help of the ACLU, but someone that kills animals (as wrong and barbaric as it is) has no one in his corner.




Brian, you and I here will have to disagree and I will tell you why......
Here I see a larger problem of society, passing the blame to others. What has happened to personal responsibility. Blame the music, blame the violent images, blame the news, blame the government. If you know its wrong and against the law and still do something...thats not societies fault.

Rob

An employer chooses to hire or fire and they chose to fire him; yeah I have a huge problem with that. People have done far worse and have received more mercy. This was just a political assault; they didn't have to decide to ban him for life! It's wrong to me any way it's sliced; it's political and completely over-the-top punitive when he's already getting the jail time. That should be enough; some of these guys have been involved in serious crimes against humanity and still allowed to play. The NFL is throwing him under the bus to get the activists off their backs, plain and simple.

There's really nothing else to say on this topic; I think it's wrong to take a man's career away over this and others think it's okay. Well they got their pound of flesh and took a man's career away; I hope they'll be satisfied but I feel they're not finished with him and nothing will make them happy. Either way, none of us are going to change our position on it, at least I am not.

 

[lk70]

OJ did the murder and got away with it and he doesn't have to pay a penny to the families he hurt. How is this a true comparison?

I wasn't comparing the acts, just the news coverage- since you said if Vick were an ordinary guy it wouldn't be getting press.

I think the same is true of murder. It goes on all the time but you don't see it on national news until a celebrity is involved. That doesn't change the severity of the crime.

 

[brianspencer66]

OK, I hope I wont ruffle any feathers here but...............


kis....
you can not force an employer to hire someone. If not the NFL I am sure the CFL or Arena League would hire him. I just do not see at this time an NFL team owner paying Vick to play for them. No one is taking his career away, Vick through his own actions made himself unmarketable and unwanted. He signed a code of conduct just like anyone else in the NFL and understood that. What ever punishment he receives whether its just a 1 year suspension only or a lifetime ban is up to those in charge. I personally do not care either way. I am not a avid animal lover...my kids have pets (2 goldfish), I am not a "dog" person and certainly not on the side of PETA.


I agree 100%. However it is their right to show their distaste and push for action just as it is the right of any group to do the same. Politics plays a part of many things. For me it is his outright lies to the fans, his employers that is more outrageous. The NFL might have let this go with a shorter ban, but to be lied to....the way he did is what is probably going to do him in worse.
If I lied to my employer...I would be out on my ear, as Im sure you and anyone else would. I also am dumbfounded by a lot of attitudes and laws that would see a child rapist go free with the help of the ACLU, but someone that kills animals (as wrong and barbaric as it is) has no one in his corner.




Brian, you and I here will have to disagree and I will tell you why......
Here I see a larger problem of society, passing the blame to others. What has happened to personal responsibility. Blame the music, blame the violent images, blame the news, blame the government. If you know its wrong and against the law and still do something...thats not societies fault.

Rob

Well where do these young people get these idea to do foolish and horrible things such as these? You know as well as I do that young people always emulate what they see in the media. People are not by nature born evil for the most part and young people are most vunerable. I talk to kids up to 25 26 who say foolish things to me all the time and that is based on the fact that lots simply dont know any better are ignorant or dont bother to watch the news or even pick up a book. Its not the blame game its a fact of life that amerian kids are dumbing down seriously. Look at that young lady from the miss teen america beauty contest the other day as a perfect example. Sure some of it is personal responsablitiy. But its also all our responsability to understand the deeper source of why this kind of thing is happening more and more often than it did years ago too.