interrogation

[U.N.Owen]

Marauder & MTJ:

I'm not going to get into another extended round of "what I really said." My point has been very obvious from the start. In my original post, I clearly avoided accusing MTJ of anything. He then declared me 'judgmental' for saying that it was wrong to 'get off' on real-life torture. That was and is my only point... and I don't back off from it one inch. If you agree, charming. If you don't, so be it. I responded to clear statements. If you consider what I said 'ripped from context', I could easily say the same -- especially since the supposed point being answered in this disputed sentence, that the reputation of the fetish was being damaged, was one I never so much as implied. But I really don't think we have much left to say here, do you? You obviously think I'm some sort of puritanical fanatic on the rampage... and you're entitled to that opinion.

Hal:

Thank you for a constructive post. I fully agree with you that nothing more can be achieved by continuing this argument.

And MTJ is quite correct: I did say I would not post further. I allowed myself to be drawn back into an issue on which I feel strongly. Foolish of me.

 

[U.N.Owen]

Okay, I'm going to take a step back here, and aim for a calmer statement. If you're going to consider me a raving nut 😀, which is of course your right, I'd prefer you to do it for what I actually mean, not what I may appear to have meant in a moment of heat.

I am quite prepared to accept that I misinterpreted an important part of what you said (specifically, the part which seemed to me to say that that real-life torture is an acceptable part of tickling). I misread it, what I thought it said shocked me (particularly because I had never thought you would say such a thing), and I overreacted accordingly. For that I freely and sincerely apologize.

Nonetheless, we do have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to feel that enjoying sexual stimulation from an account of a real life torture in no way condones the actual act. I disagree. I know you don't mean that you would engage in such acts yourself. I never thought you would, and I don't think so now. I know you would not approve of anyone else doing such a thing if it were in any way up to you. But to take sexual gratification from the actual suffering of a real person is, by definition, taking pleasure in the fact that the torture occurred.

You could say, of course, that it's merely the idea, not the actual incident, that is the turn-on, but I don't consider that a meaningful distinction. It's only a pure idea when it's pure fiction -- and as I've said repeatedly, I have no problem with fiction about torture, even if I personally dislike it. The fact that the real-life torture already happened and the reader or viewer had nothing to do with it doesn't mean that, by enjoying it, the reader isn't ex post facto taking pleasure in what happened. A story on a human rights website should not be fetish material. No doubt, as you say, many people with the dark fantasies I have defended will be thusly turned on. That doesn't alter my opinion.

As to castration, did you really believe I meant that literally? That was an expression of emotional heat, a piece of hyperbole. Those stories from China really made me angry. What China is doing to innocent people is beyond horrifying, and I was -- and am -- appalled by the idea of people reading it and thinking it's sexually exciting. I'm not going to apologize for that reaction.

Obviously, you disagree with me, and feel that there's nothing wrong with the reading a true-life account and having the idea be a turn-on. We're not going to agree, then. If you consider what I've said in this post fanaticism, then by your standards, it is. It's a straightforward and calm rendering of the point I've been trying to make: I don't think real-life torture should ever be a source of enjoyment, even to an uninvolved reader long after the fact.

 

[U.N.Owen]

Thank you. I always prefer to end an argument amicably. 🙂 I'm glad I succeded in communicating my point, which my initial anger at first distorted. I also reiterate my apology for misinterpreting some of your major points.

 

[Oddjob0226]

I haven't seen this much diagraming of sentances since I was in Jr. High. So, are any of you people English teachers?