lordof the rings thread

[drew70]

...I am astounded by Tolkien's true mastery of English. He uses language like an artist's paintbrush to create this picture of life in a world called Middle Earth. Not only does Tolkien create multiple languages from thin air, but he writes with them, he translates them into each other, and most astounding of all, he evolves these languages over thousands of years, marrying them, and allowing them to borrow from each other...

Excellently said, good Phatteus. To me, this is what sets Tolkien's works above the rest. The mastery of the English language, the creation and blending of new languages, along with unparalleled imagination.

I was dwelling on the Silmarillion and how it establishes the origins of the eldest of beings on Middle Earth, such as Gandalf, Elrond, Sauron, the Balrog of Moria, the High Elves, etc, when it occurred to me that I don't remember seeing any reference to Tom Bombadil in The Silmarillion. Yet when Frodo and his three companions encounter Tom in The Old Forest (a scene not included in the movie) he is described by Goldberry as the "eldest." Did I miss something in the Silmarillion? It's easy to do in a book so densely packed with information. Who or what was Tom Bombadil during the earliest days of Middle Earth and Valinor?

 

[WraithTickler]

My understanding on the matter is thus.Tom is a maiar spirit like Gandalf and Sauron. Tom probably stayed in Middle Earth during the time of the Pillars and before the flight of the Elves to the West and remained basically untroubled by events in his own quiet little corner of the world.

 

[BigJim]

I'm gonna get my arse roasted by Toklein fans now, but I didn't think the omission of Tom Bombadil was any great loss from the film. I find that part of FotR irritating and childish. The bloke gets right on my threepenny bits.

 

[WraithTickler]

In my not so humble opinion, it actually wasn't that big of a loss for the film that they left him out. It saved on budget and time, allowing for much other cool stuff. It was a nice edition to the book, but not essential to the movie.

Some people have a hard time justifying his place in the books to begin with but I'd say he does serve a good purpose. I think he shows that nature remains uncorruptable, though it can be destroyed by the powers of man. This is backed up when Elrond discusses how Sauron could over come Tom to take the Ring if Tom were appointed its guardian.

Bombadil is master- he is untroubled by the evils of the world and especially the tempation of the ring. Since Tolkein was a Christian writer, one could surmise he demonstrated a being unaffected by temptation and original sin. Considering his status as a maiar with Gandalf and Sauron, this is reinforced by the fact he never would have fell like Morgoth or Sauron did. Bombadil is at peace and content in Middle Earth, and Gandalf, after the final defeat of Sauron can take that same relief now that his responsibilities are ended, the two sharing a same inner goodness and kinship.

 

[BigJim]

Would Bombadil have faded after the dustruction on the One Ring? Or was his power not dependant on the magic that was sustained by it's existence; such as the Elve's magic was?

 

[Deleted member 2452]

hold the phone!

Would Bombadil have faded after the dustruction on the One Ring? Or was his power not dependant on the magic that was sustained by it's existence; such as the Elve's magic was?

ok, it's been since the 70's since i read the trilogy, but it's my recollection that the elves had their own magic before the "one ring" was made. or am i just too senile, and need to re-read them?
steve

 

[phatteus]

Gentlemen, I agree that while an integral part of the "books", Tom Bombadill (spelling on my part?) was an acceptable omission. What I found lacking was the fact that "Hollywood" omitted the songs and poems that Bilbo and others used throughout to occupy their time. But that's probably just me being picky. Forgive me if I sound as though I have no clue here, I am in the same boat as Arenaactor...

I just purchased a copy of The Silmarillion, on all y'all's recommendations. I'll tell you what I think when I finish reading it in seven months!

 

[His Divine Shadow]

No, I believe you are right. The elves did have there own magics before the rings were made. It is only Sauron who was tied so closely with a ring of power that his power, and himself, would vanish when it was destroyed. But, I could be hallucinating.😀

 

[BigJim]

They did have their own magic, yes. However.........

When the science of ringcraft came to the fore, Sauron showed them how to magnify and enhance their power through binding it into the rings. Their power was as bound into the Three as Sauron's was into the One. As vital elements of the Three's essence was bound into the One, (making them subordinate to it) they were buggered royaly when the One was destroyed. As the Elves had bound their magical essence into the Three, they lost their power when the Three did. Sauron came off worst because he'd bound his entire Self into the One. His whole life depended on it's existence, not just his power.

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Fools. What a mistake to make. NEVER bind yourself to a single object or series of objects.

Thank you for that clarification, Jim.😀

 

[phatteus]

Well explained Jim.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Deleted member 2452]

another elf/magic question.

ok if the elves magic was tied to the 3 rings, and they lost it when the one ring is finally destroyed; then doesn't that make them mortal, or able only to live a human life span? i ask cause, it again was my understanding that their immortality was tied to their magic, no?

steve
p.s. jim, are we doing shots with those beer?

 

[BigJim]

Re: another elf/magic question.

ok if the elves magic was tied to the 3 rings, and they lost it when the one ring is finally destroyed; then doesn't that make them mortal, or able only to live a human life span? i ask cause, it again was my understanding that their immortality was tied to their magic, no?

Their life span would still be greater than a human's, but yes they would become mortal. This is the reason why most of them left Middle Earth for the West; also I think, the reason why Frodo and Bilbo went with them as they had been ring-bearers. Gandalf too.

steve

p.s. jim, are we doing shots with those beer?

Absoloutely. I'd suggest starting off with Flat-liners and Brain Haemorrages.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

Re: Re: another elf/magic question.

Absoloutely. I'd suggest starting off with Flat-liners and Brain Haemorrages. [/B][/QUOTE]

sorry folks i know this is o.t.. but jim, what the frell are those drinks made of?!?! they sound.. interesting.
steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: another elf/magic question.

Absoloutely. I'd suggest starting off with Flat-liners and Brain Haemorrages.

sorry folks i know this is o.t.. but jim, what the frell are those drinks made of?!?! they sound.. interesting.
steve [/B][/QUOTE]


Flat-Liner: Sambuca, tequilla, tabasco sauce.

Brain Haemorrage: Bailey's, sambuca and Red Aftershock. (I think.)

 

[Deleted member 2452]

another question

ok frodo, bilbo, and gandolf go "west" with the elves, after the "one ring" is destroyed. i think you said that right big jim?
in which book does this happen? i just don't remember it, and my daughter who's read all 4 since the movies first came out looked at me like a had snakes in my hair when i asked her about it, lol.
hey jim i'll try both of those shots, with a few beers in between. but you have to quaff a couple kamakazis too.

 

[BigJim]

It happens right in the very last chapter of Return of the King. It is quite literally, the last thing that happens in the story.

Only a couple? You not a hard drinker then? 😀

 

[Deleted member 2452]

thanks jim i'll read it today!

well i was a rather thirsty fish in my youth, but i learned from it, lol. well i thought a couple, cause with all the other stuff, there wouldn't be time for more, lol.
you wana see some serious drinking? come over here on sept 19th. i'll take you to the biggest ww2 re-enactment of the year. it's held in rockford illinois. after the spectators leave, we get toasty! man, you wouldn't believe the way some of us drink then! the german reenactors are the worst! it's an amazing sight. they even drank the quart of kentukee moon shine i brought last year, and the americans wouldn't touch it after the first guy turned purple, and coughed up half a lung, lol. now that was some good 'shine!
steve

 

[drew70]

On Bombadil - I agree with Wraith Tickler. His being a Maia would explain his power and longevity. To demonstrate Tom's dissociation with the cares of the world, he even puts on the One Ring, and to the Hobbits' shock and surprise does not turn invisible. I loved Tom in the book but didn't really miss him in the movie. The producers had to omit something to keep the length of the movie reasonable, and I think they made the right choice.

On the Elves and their Three Rings - Big Jim's explanation was totally on the money. In those days Sauron was still able to appear fair, and had supposedly repented of his prior association with Melkor. Still, the elves should have known better and given Sauron a wide berth, but their judgement was clouded with the idea of increasing their power. They don't make a lot of mistakes, the Elves, but when they do, they generally pay for it big time.

On the West - Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gandalf all eventually head West of the Shire to the shores of the sea where Cirdan the Shipwright takes them across the sea to Valinor. I would imagine that most of the elves make the journey as well. Tough to say about Elrond, though. He's half Elf and half man.

On Immortality - I don't remember seeing any reference to the elves losing their immortality as a result of the destruction of the One Ring. I do remember Galadriel saying that she would "diminish," which is somewhat vague. I could be way off here (and probably am) but I always got the impression that in the West, everybody lives forever, free of pain and suffering, in large part due to the collective power of the Valar, particularly Varda, known to Frodo and Sam as "Elbereth."

 

[BigJim]

I always got the impression that Valinor wasn't exactly in the physical world. All that talk about "leaving Middle Earth forever" and that. It's as if sailing west made them pass through a portal or dimension-shift or something, into a sort of Tir Na Nogue (sp?) type of land.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i've started from the begining (again)

i've started to re-read the trilogy today, wish me luck.
i thought of going west ment to atlantis, or america.
my daughter who is also a huge fan, has decided on cat island, which is in the burmuda triangle, and very hard to locate. she figures that's due to the elf magic.
steve