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tummynavelboy
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gibby59 said:
i also agree with gibby on that. if the BIBLE is not true then that means thier wouldn't be no wrong or right in this World. and i could do whatever i wanted without anybody saying oh thats Right or oh thats Wrong. But that is just my feeling on it.
Thank you hehe
gibby59 said:
Don't apologise, diversity of opinion is a wonderful thing.
As for there being no reason, well that is not true. It might be true for devout Christians, but not for the rest of us. I'm not a Christian, but I have a very developed spirituality and concept of "God".
I think it's also true that many devout Christians have never seen a detailed piece explaining why some people think of religion as fiction. (And by detailed I mean several thousand words.)
BellyButtonsRoc said:
Again, why is the truth of the Bible necessary for right and wrong to exist? Christianity is one of many religions, each one giving a very limited view of possibility, all the while claiming all the others are wrong. Why should the Bible be the definitive definition of Creation?
Doing positive or negative things could have effects on your "spirit" if the Bible wasn't true. Why is it that the Bible being untrue suddenly means that there's no other possible definition of the "other world"?
Just out of interest, have either of you ever read anything that's put together in a sensible manner that puts forward a reason why the Bible is untrue? There's plenty of people ranting about this and that, but have either of you actually seen anything that goes into detail?
BigJim said:
That's the problem, I haven't seen anything that is sensible that can disprove the Bible. All the detail they go into is all theory no fact. As to Christianity being one of many religions, how many correct answers are there to the equation "2+2=__"? I know of only one. There's only one way to God and that's through knowing Jesus Christ. Besides, how can you argue with a religion that teaches you to love your neighbor as yourself, to love your enemies and to forgive one another? And how could you not trust in a Creator that would allow himself to become like one of us, suffer and die so that you might live? But, you are entitled to your opinion and I'll love you no matter what you think.
tummynavelboy
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Go to http://www.chrstianforums.com there is a place where you Found tons of topics from both christians and non christians on different topics ranging Satanism to the Creation of this world etc....
Be Blessed🙂
Be Blessed🙂
gibby59 said:
And I you. 🙂 Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What is even better is when people of differing opinions can hugely disagree with each other, yet still remain friends.
Just for kicks, I'm going to post an excerpt from an article I wrote about religion. (All religions, not just Christianity.) Be warned however, it was not written in the sort of tone I might have used if it'd been intended for friendly discourse with devout Christians. In places I am quite acerbic, because I attack the creators of various religions for their imprisoning of human spirituality. Quite frankly there is more evidence in this passage (in my opinion) that Christ was completely fictional than there is evidence that he existed. For the record I was once a committed Christian. Since leaving the faith behind I feel my personal spirituality is much stronger and I am doing a lot more good in the world. I find I am less restrained and more able to deal with my internal "workings" because the stigmas of guilt and self-critiscism are gone.
Before I post the essay extract, I would very much like to make one point. (A point I've made to other people, elsewhere, but not here yet.) I have quite a personal dislike for the concept of "You can be saved only through the accepting of Christ as your saviour." The way I phrased it was something like...
"Ahmed is a boy born to Bedouin parents somewhere outside of Damascus. They are quite poor, roaming the arid lands with their herds and largely minding their own business. When Ahmed is born his parents ask God to bless him and look after him. As he grows they teach him to pray to God, asking forgiveness for his mistakes, and to give thanks for his food and all other blessings. Little Ahmed give himself totally over to God and never a day passes when the little boy doesn't give thanks for his meagre bowl of rice, or his wonderful parents who care for him so much. Sadly, at the age of 7 Ahmed contracts diptheria and dies in agony, his throat swollen so much there is barely a gap the size of the lead in the middle of a pencil, down his throat. His family thank God for his little life and commend his soul to the Lord's keeping, even having a local priest say a funeral service for him. Never was there a more innocent and sweet child. Sadly, Ahmed was a muslim and under the law of "You can be saved only through the accepting of Christ as your saviour" he is now doomed to stoke the fires of hell for all eternity. Despite being pure of heart and innocent of soul, he will suffer agony and torture along with the minions of Satan.
Quite frankly I find such a philosophy as having to belong to a particular religion to gain the grace of God, to be completely laughable. As far as I'm concerned the Almighty is present in all things and is the creator of all human souls. To believe that "God" (whatever definition you want to apply to Him/It) is such an unmitigated moron as to discriminate on someone's hope for eternal life on the basis of an accident of geography is alien to the idea of a loving deity.
As for how I can argue against such a religion, prepare for a long read. Again I apologise if the tone offends you, but it wasn't designed for such discussion as this. The information is pertinent however. I don't expect it to change your mind, because there is nothing so closed to alternative possibilities (no offence - just my opinion based on observation of many religious people) as a devoutly religious person. Even though I pour a lot of scorn on what I'm certain are your core beliefs in your faith, I am not attacking you or any religious person. If anyone, I'm attacking the people who artificially manufactured religion to creat a lucrative industry, divide and rule and gain power.
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The Gospel according to St. Jim (Long winded version.)
Okay, who am I talking about here? His father was the king of the spirit world/heaven. He was the only begotten son of the chief deity. He was born of a virgin as a result of an immaculate conception. He was born on earth on December 25th and walked among men as a great king. He was a threat to the established order of the time. He was brutally murdered, laid dead in his tomb for 3 days and then came back to life. He reapeared to his followers and then ascended to rule the heavens at the side of his holy father.
Sounds like a simple question I'm sure. I'm even more sure that every one of you would answer that I was talking about Jesus Christ. However, you would'nt be correct. All of the above have been attributed to an almost endless string of deities, of whom Jesus Christ is only one of the most recent. A few years ago, the Archbishop of Canterbury objected to having a Christmas tree in the cathedral because it was a pagan symbol. What makes that so funny is that the whole of the Christian religion is pagan! And not just christianity either. Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Judaism and just about every pre-christianity multi-theistic religion are all exactly the same. They all tell exactly the same story about exactly the same characters. The only difference is the names they give them. Now you might think that would be a perfect corroberation of official religious history, but again you would'nt be right. For millenia now, religion has been nothing (according to what I've studied) but a forcible hi-jacking of human spirituality; for the purpose of controlling masses of people by fear and guilt. The figures you'd read about in just about any religious story are at the very best, loosely based on real people. Often they are flat out fictional and nothing more. What is even worse is that a slightly different version of events has been peddled to different peoples, with the express intention of making sure they hate anyone else who doesn't share their own desperatley limited vision.
To understand where the blueprint for control by religion came from, you have have to look very closely at the oldest pagan religions, of ancient civilisations. The main focus for these was the sun. Whether it was Apollo, Ammon-Ra, Helios, Sol Invictus or whoever, the sun god was always highly venerated because the sun was so important. There were two reasons for this. Firstly it was because of the obvious dependancy of civilisation upon the sun. It provided warmth and light; was directly responsible for how good the harvest would be. In all these ancient civilisations you had a trinity. A chief god, a female and a son figure, who walked amongst mortal men. In ancient Babylon these three were called Nimrod, Semiramis and their son, Tammuz. Tammuz was a "great king amongst men". He was murdered in his 30's by being hung on a tree with a lamb at his feet. They laid his corpse in a tomb and 3 days later the tomb was found open, with the body gone! I've definatley heard that somewhere before...........
And the thing is, that this supposedly happened five to six thousand years BC!!!!!! As time passed there was the same theme in Egypt. There the trinity was Osiris, Isis and Horus. Osiris had an evil broher rebel against him in heaven (called Set or Seth) who murdered him. His sister Isis miraculously conceived a son by him, ressurected him and then bore the infant called Horus. This Horus chap was called a saviour, ruled amongst men, cast down the evil Set and restored his father's kingdom on earth. Horus also had 12 followers and was refered to as "the Kryst". Everything that dated from Babylon and Sumer from about 6,000-7,500 BC miraculously transported itself across to Egypt for the Pharohonic period. The legends were identical, butthe names had changed. On a completely different landmass in Central America, you had an identical situation with Queztalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca. But there's more............
In Phrygia there was born a "Son of the gods" called Attis. He was born on December the 25th to a virgin mother. He was refered to as "the Saviour of men, the only begotten Son" and he died to save humanity. He was "crucified" on a Friday and his blood was spilled to redeem the earth. He suffered "death with nails and stakes". He was the Father and Son combined in a human body. He was laid to rest, went down into the underworld, but three days later on the equivalent of March 25th, his body was found missing. Later on, he was found walking about again. His body was symbolised as bread, which was eaten by his followers as a sign of taking him into themselves.
In India there was a godling called Krishna. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. His father was a carpenter. A star hovered over his birthplace and there were shepherds and angels of heaven there. The local ruler slaughtered thousands of infants to try to eradicate him, buthe somehow survived. He performed miracles, healed lepers, the sick, the lame and the blind. He died in his 30's, crucified on a tree or post. His close followers refered to him as "Jezeus" or "Jeseus" which translates as "pure essence". It is said in the writing of the Vedas that he will return on a white horse to judge the dead and fight the "Prince of Evil".
Then in Greece there was Dionysus/Bacchus. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th; put in a manger and covered in swaddling. He was a teacher who travelled throughout the land performing miracles and healing. He turned water into wine. He rode into town on the back of an ass. (As did Seth from Egypt, funnily enough.) His monikers included the ram or lamb, God of the Vine, God of Gods and King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, bearer of sins, the Redeemer, the Anointed One (translated from the word "Christos") and the Alpha and the Omega. He was hung and crucified on a tree, but rose from the dead on March the 25th. He was worshipped in Jerusalem during the first century BC. A book called Antiquity Unveiled by J.M. Roberts says that "IES, the Phoenician name for Bacchus, offers the origin to Jesus." This chap reckonsthat IES can be broken up into I (meaning "the One") and ES. (Meaning fire and light.) When these two fragments are amalgamated then, it becomes IES which means "the one light". He then says, "This is none other than the light of St. John's Gospel; and this name is to be found everywhere on christian altars, both protestant and catholic,thus clearly showing that the Christian religion is but a modification of Oriental sun worship, attributed to Zoroaster. The Christians read the same letters "IHS" in the Greek text as "Jes" and the Roman Catholic priesthood added the terminus "us". "
And again, it doesn't finish there. Here is a slightly more complete list of deities and demi-deities, all of whom had similar or identical lives to "Jesus", or were involved in legends around the figure. Apollo, Hercules and Zeus of Greece; Adad and Marduk of Assyria; Buddha Sakia and Indra of India and Tibet; Salivahana of southern India and Bermuda; Osiris and Horus of Egypt; Balder and Frey of Scandinavia; Crie of Chaldea; Zoroaster of Persia; Baal (also known as Bel or Bil) and Taut of Phoenicia; Bali of Afghanistan; Jao of Nepal; Wittoba of Bilingonese; Xamolxis of Thrace; Zoar of the Bonzes; Chu Chulainn of Ireland; Deva Tat, Codom and Sammonocadam of Siam; Alcides of Thebes; Mikado of the Sintoos; Beddru of Japan; Hesus or Eros and Bremrillaham of the Druids; Thor, son of Odin of the Gauls; Cadmus of Greece; Hil and Feta of Mandaites; Gentaut and Quetzalcoatl of Mexico and Central America; Universal Monarch of the Sibyls; Ischy of Formosa; Divine Teacher of Plato; Holy One of Xaca; Fohi, Ieo, Lao-Kium, Chiang-Ti and Tien of China; Ixion and Quirnus of Rome; Prometheus of the Caucasus region; Mohammed or Mahomet of Arabia (only true Prophet, rather than Son); Dahzbog of the Slavs; Jupiter, Jove and Quirinus of Rome; Mithra of India, Persia and Rome.
The worship of the god Mithra pre-dates Christianity by literally millenia, but yet again tells the story that would later become Christianity in acute detail. It is even said that gold, frankincense and myrhh were offered as gifts to him. By the time that the character of Jesus was literally invented, the worship of Mithra and his rites were widespread throughou the Roman Empire. When they founded Christianity in Rome, they used the very symbols and rituals that had been the Mythric myth. Mithra's holy day of the week was Sun-day, because like Jesus he wasn't a real person, but a symbol that represents the sun. Mitra's followers called this "the Lord's day" and they celebrated their main religious feast on what is now Easter in our calender. Mithric initiations were held in a cave adorned with the signs of Capricorn and Cancer, being symbols of the winter and summer solstices. He was portrayed as a winged lion (a solar symbol or depiction in a lot of lands) standing within the coils of a spiralling serpent. The lion and serpent are and have been major symbols of power, religion and royalty all across the world, throughout the ages that humans have existed. The Roman church absorbed the Mithra Eucharist into it's rituals and supplanted the whole religion in that region. Mithra was also recorded as saying......"He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Now that rings a very loud bell to me. The very site that the Vatican stands on was a massive site of Mithra worship. In a way it still is; they just re-named him Jesus.
So Mithra was a symbol for the sun and so was his christian counterpar, Jesus. (The light of the world.) Jesus walks on water. (So does the sun's reflection if you want to get picky. lol) Jesus started his Father's work in the temple at the age of 12 and started his main ministry at 30. (The sun reaches it's daily peak at 12 noon, hence Jesus was first known then, and it enters each zodiacal sign at 30 degrees, hence he starts his ministry at that age.) Jesus turned water into wine. (At the root of nature the sun does the same because it makes the vine grow.) There is soooooo much symbolism in these accounts and not least in the Bible itself; which is almost entirely pure symbolism. There are the fish, (Pisces) and the 12 disciples (sign of the zodiac) to name just two. To understand that last one, look at a picture of Da Vinci's painting "The Last Supper." We are very much talking two levels of knowledge here. In the most basic form, the people worshipped the sun because of it's effect on the crop; but the people in the know who were doing the manipulating worshipped it because they understood it's power over nature entirely. This is where we start talking about secret societies and conspiracy theories I'm afraid. Leonardo Da Vinci was very high up as an initiate of secret societies as they existed in his day, and he certainly understood what Jesus really was. When you look at that painting, you can see Jesus sitting in the centre and the 12 disciples gathered with 6 on either side of Him. Look even closer and you'll notice that the 12 disciples are gathered in 4 groups of 3 men. (They're actually huddled into these groups pretty obviously, so it isn't too hard to spot if you're looking for it.) The painting is wholly symbolic of the sun (Son) surrounded by the 12 signs of he zodiac! The reason they're gathered in 4 groups of three is because they symbolise the 4 seasons of the year, with three months in each one.
Then let's take the Pisces and fish symbolism even further. Jesus was refered to as the "fish" and the "fisher of men". Perhaps this may have been because at the time that he was alleged to have been born, the Earth was entering the sign of Pisces. Because there is so much symbolism for Jesus and all the other gods assosciated with similar tales througout history, we really can't afford to ignore any possible connection with fish-like or amphibious gods, of ancient peoples. The Nommo of the Dogon people and also the Annedoti were both like this. also, their respective worshipers claimed they came from the star we call Sirius.
And here's another part that makes a nonsense of religion. The most widely used, translated and debated version of the Bible, is the King James version. A survey by the church in the 19th century discovered that the KJB had, wait for it............NEARLY 40,000 TRANSLATION ERRORS!!!!! One of the most noticable of these errors was the translation of the word "Elohim". This was taken to be the singular "God". However the word for God was "Elo". The h-i-m part pluralises it, which means that the bible should have been refering to "the gods" instead of "God". Big difference. This makes more sense when you try to compare Christianity, Islam and Judaism which all have the same roots, with the much older, multi-theistic, pagan religions. (It also makes "the Son of God" into "the sons of the gods". Perhaps that refers to the Nephilim of the book of Genesis?) Another big-time translation error was the translation of "the end of the world". (Armagheddon.) The word for world was mistranslated from the Greek word " aeon" and refers to the end of an age, not the whole world. The "end of the age" refers to the earth astronomical/astrological progression from one sign of the zodiac to the other. We are soon to leave the age of Pisces and enter the age of Aquarius. I think this progression more or less syncs with the Mayan's prediction of the end of the age/world as they knew it in 2012. Expect big changes soon then! Perhaps this is why people are beginning to discover their spiritual abilities again, instead of living in fear and guilt?
The deeds attributed to Jesus christ are huge and momentous. Someone like him would have been a serious thorn in the side of whoever held the reigns of power at the time He lived. However, not all seems to gel on this point. Outside of the books of the New Testament, there is no record, sign or account of Jesus Christ anywhere. A brief mention in the words of a Hebrew scholar/historian called Josephus is a rather blatant and obvious attempt at the priesthood trying to cross reference their meal ticket. There are literally scores of writers, historians and philosophers who laid down the history of the Israel/Palestine area at the time Jesus is said to have lived and NOT ONE OF THEM mentions him in so much as a footnote. Philo was alive and kicking through Jesus' whole "life" and wrote extensivley about the Judeans. This covered the whole period. The man lived in or near to Jerusalem all througout the time that Jesus was born of immaculate conception, wowed the elders in the temple, performed miracles and healings,overturned he money lenders tables, drove out demons, nearly gave the local authorities multiple heart attacks, was crucified, returned to life and ascended to heaven. Quite a life. And what does Philo say about this larger than life character, who so dominated his time and place? ABSOLOUTLEY NOTHING!!!!!!! Not a jot! Nada! Naff all! Fuck all! Zilch! That's less likely than Mike Tyson turning vegetarian! It is exactly the same with all the very complete Roman records, and the work of all of Philo's prominent contempories. There is no simple answer, just a very blunt one from my perspective. These events never happened, because there was no "Jesus". The man himself is symbolic of the sun, and his deeds and miracles are symbolic of the sun's power because of it's importance in pagan religion. And the main reason that the hierarchy of these religions worshipped the sun, wasn't because of it's effect on the crop, although that is very important, obviously. It was because they understood the power of the sun's electromagnetism. After light and heat, this is the sun's most effective power on our planet. The sun is quite simply, boiling with electromagnetism. The earth itself it crisscrossed with electromagnetic meridians that were known as "ley lines" in the olden days. On top of that, every living cell on the planet is a conductor of electromagnetic energy. Now this is the power that makes that train in France levitate!!!!! Electromagnetism can do that! It can also transfer information via an electromagnetic wave through the air. Military communication do this all the time. (At least EXTREMELY important ones do.) Now if you can picture a human being who is so in tune with this process that his or her body can channel the energy in the same way that a train or transmitter does; you have scientific explanations for telekinesis and telepathy! Not myth! Not science fiction! Not hogwash! FACT! The sun vastly affects the earth's meridian grid all the time. Whenever two or more of these meridians cross each other, you get a vortex point of seriously intense energy. It's also at places like this that you'll find monuments like Stonehenge, Avebury, the Giza plateau and the temple at Ankhor Wat in south east Asia. These things were massive harnessing focuses for the earth's natural powers! So why havn't we still got them today? you might ask. We have. They're all over the world at points where energy meridians meet. And what's more they're even designed after the fashion of the old esoteric structures, because every shape has a vibration and a wavelength that affects this energy. Egypt is the most ready example to hand. The male energy was represented by an obelisk, symbolic of the penis of Osiris; which was severed by Seth's sword. The female energy was represented by a dome or bowl, symbolic of Isis's womb. Typical male/female energy representations. these symbols were the focused representations of the manipulated energy; the natural energy itself was often depicted as a river. Hence the Egyptians would often build an obelisk on one side of the Nile and a symbol of Isis on the other. Well one of the biggest "vortex points" in europe is in the British Isles, under the City of London. Now get this......near Oxford, the Thames river is refered to as "the Isis". Coincidence? Possibly. But follow it into the city and then stop when we get to the financial district. On one side of the river you have Canary Wharf, the biggest obelisk in the country and right across the river from it, (a stones throw almost exactly) you have the Millenium Dome. In the space of a few hundred square yards you have the river, the obelisk and the dome. The trinity. The father, mother and the product. Massive symbolism on a scarily modern scale. Why the hell would modern architects be following designs practiced in ancient Egypt? I would suggest the answer is because the people who designed the damn things knew perfectly what they represented. What we're talking about is knowledge on two levels, all over again! And I can feel the "I word" coming up pretty soon.
When I use the term "Illuminate" I'm not talking about any one group, or society. I'm refering to all of them as a whole. The whole upshot of this thread, is that these people knew the power of nature and the cosmos. If it's a power that gives normal, ordinary people the sort of abilities that this forum was created to promote, then it would frighten people who had created religion after religion on pure symbolism, and murdered anyone who didn't take it literally. Some of the people here are religious in the conventional sense. That's fine, I don't decry that at all. But when you get to the bare bones of any of the major religions, you see nothing but hate, murder, racism, damnation and fear. According to the Bible itself, the biggest and mosr prolific racist and biggot of them all was God Himself! It makes me damn angry to think that someone could twist Divine Spirit into such a horrible mis-representation. The people here who believe in Jesus, but promote the values of this forum, (patience, tolerance, pychic ability etc) are wonderful people, but don't fit the original mould of religion at all. It was the character called Jesus Himself who said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword!" Conventional religion was a deliberate creation. It was created to imprison humanity and disconnect it from it's infinte power and possibility. That's why so many poor sould were murdered in the name of "God". But it's ending, the stranglehold is breaking. The people who use this forum are the proof of that. Humanity as a whole can hear the ticking of some cosmic, spiritual alarm clock, that is waking them up. I think personally that is why so many people who think of themselves as christians (including me about 3 years ago) do not fit the description at all.
Before I sign off from this mammoth thread, here is one more point about Jesus the Son/sun of God/the gods that I would like to make. As is widely accepted, the sun was the focus of ancient religion and as I've said I believe, Jesus is symbolic of it; not a factual person. Well one of the biggest holy days of any pagan calender was the winter solstice. It was the holiest because it was the end of one solar year nd the start of the next. On December 21st-22nd the sun had reached it's nadir in the northern hemisphere. (Where most ancient civillisations were located.) The ancients said it had "died". By even the most rudimentary of observations/calculations it had begun it's journey back to life and it's full summer strength, by the time 3 days had passed. The pagan/ancients would then have a massive celebration of the sun's rebirth on their calender's equivalent of December the 25th. So let's re-cap...........
1/ The sun/Son dies.........
2/ It spends three days dead or in the underworld.......
3/ It then is re-born/born anew........
4/ And the sun's birthday would then have been on.........DECEMBER 25TH!!!!
That is why symbolic deity after symbolic deity was born on that date; in civilisation after civilisation; millenium after millenium. That is why christianity took all the festival dates from the pagan calender and that is why the Archbishop of Canterbury dropped a clanger when he said Christmas trees were pagan. Christianity IS pagan!
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The Bible alleges that St. Peter (the "Rock" as he is sometimes known) was the first ever Pontiff (Pope) and thus founded Christianity as more than just as side-sect of Judaism. This would have made it a religion in it's own right. However, given the compelling evidence of most biblical characters being fictional (One Babylonian myth tells the story of a chap called Sargon, who was found by a princess, floating in a woven basket on the river: he was subsequntly adopted by the royal familly!!! Scary eh?) I believe I do know who really created Christianity. This particular religion was largely written by the Levite preisthood, with large chunks of the gospels being written by the Piso familly. But there's more to come; as you mentioned one of the alleged deeds of one disciple, I'll go into several personal biographies of these and other, related characters. Before I do though, there's one thing I forgot to mention in the previous lengthy post. The main holy symbol of christianity is the cross. This is because Jesus was crucified on one, according to the gospels. I would however suggest a different reason. As I've already said, Jesus was, in my opinion, the latest in a long line of solar-related deities, who were symbolic of the power of the solar globe. So if you look at a depiction of the solar system, you'll see that each body in it, has a symbol. Earth is a circle with a dot, Neptune is represented by the trident with a slightly crooked stem. The sun is represented by another circle, overlaid with the symbol of....... A CROSS!!!!!! On top of this, look at any depiction, painting or statue of a holy figure. Nine times out of ten, they're depicted with a halo around their heads. However, Good the Father and Jesus the Son/sun both have a certain "uniqueness about their haloes. They are both decorated with......... A CROSS!!!! Now God the Father has nothing to do with the symbol. It's His son who is, because of the crucifiction tale. Yet both are shown with a (solar) cross in their haloes. I would suggest that is because of the sun symbolism in religion. It would also be worth mentioning that many cultures from the Babylonians, to the Phoenetians and the Sumerians depicted the sun as being symbolised by a cross. More than just a coincidence I would suggest. I would say that is the reason the cross features in the crucifiction story. Not because a man called Jesus was really nailed to one; but because of the solar sign in religion. On top of which, something else smells a bit funny about the crucifiction story. Jesus was crucified between two thieves, who were also crucified. This could NOT have happened, because crucifiction wasn't the Roman punishment for thievery. There were lawd alone knows how many different methods of execution in the Roman Empire, but crucifiction and larceny did NOT mix. Anyway, on to specific figures from the gospels.......
Mary(s): Mary is a very ancient name for the goddess who gives birth via a miracle to the saviour Sun God. There are several variants in different languages and cultures. Among them are Mari, Meri, Marratu, Marah and Mariham. In one aspect these names refer to the sea, ("mare" in the latin root) known as Mer or Mar and "Mary" itself refers to the feminine energy. This was often depicted as a goddess from the sea or waters, the moon or something else. The idea was that the feminine balanced the masculine power of the sun. But they also relate to the Dragon queens of Sumer, Babylon etc. Isis, the Egyptian moon goddess and virgin mother to Horus, was also known as Mother Mary or "Mata Meri" in the original. She was also called "The Queen of Heaven", "Our Lady" and "Mother of God". The goddess El in the Edda texts was also called Mary from time to time. The ancient Hebrews worshipped a god/goddess character called Mari-El, or "Mary-God/god". The "Mother Mary" of Christianity is just another regurgitated figure who was known as El, Isis, Barati,Ishtar, Brittania, Artemis, Semiramis and Diana. The Christian religon like it's bed-mate Judaism, sought to remove the feminine principle from the public domain, which caused the tried and tested trinity of father-mother-son to breplaced by father-son-holy ghost. An utterly grotesque suppression of women would follow, justified by the invented words of a mythical St. Paul. "Wives submit to your husbands for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. Now if the church submits to Christ so should wives submit to their husbands in everything." This is also joined by, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Nice guy. I can imagine him and Germaine Greer having some very friendly chats over a cup of tea. Such words were written in truth, by the initiated priesthood to drip-feed suppression of the female into any culture that it was present in. What is even worse, is that this sexist attitude can still be seen today. Ann Widdicombe is one very messed up woman, who is a member of the government. When the CoE decided to allow women vicars, she left and joined the Roman Catholic Church! And this is the sort of person who claims to be intelligent enough enough to be a part of running our country? Excuse me, I need a bucket. The people in the know (the "Illuminate" if you will) set out to systematically remove the feminine principle from society. When you bear in mind that it's this energy that lets us (even men) connect with our higher levels of being and our true spirituality, it becomes understandable. Unrestrained male energy is overwhelmingly present in the physical world and without the feminine to balance it, it becomes isolated from it's deeper levels of being. Someone being described as a "Macho Man" is typical of this. But behind the scenes, there has been covert worship of this for many a long year. Symbolised in Freemasonry as Isis or the Dragon queens, because the people in the know, really do know the true power of the female energy. Mary Magdelene is another good example. This Mary was a reformed prostitute and is another classic example of goddess symbolism. She is alo portrayed as the Great ***** of Babylon. (Or Mari-Anna-Ishtar) A ritual involving a "Sacred Harlot" or high priestess annointing a saviour-king-godling goes back to Sumer and Babylon. If you believe in Atlantis and Lemuria, then symbolism of it is found there too. It was a pagan priestess who pronounced the ressurection of Osiris, Attis, Dionysius and Orpheus, just as Mary Magdelene would go on to be the first person to see (and hug, so he was again depicted as being solid and not spirit) the ressurected Jesus Christ. It's all symbolism from the ancient multi-theistic religions and it was used to create a mythical hero and heroine for a manufactured prison-religion.
The Three Wise Men & The Bright Star: I'm sure that even the non-christians amongst us will know this one. The Bible tells of a bright star marking the place of Christ's birth. Exactly the same story was told in ancient Egypt, using the star Sirius. (Which is the brightest star we can see from Earth, from any place, at any time of the year.) Ancient Egyptian religious texts say that when the highly significant constellation of Orion (for them in particular) appeared above the horizon, it presaged the arrival of Sothis or Sirius; the star of Horus and Osiris. (Also assosciated with Isis in Freemasonry, who refer to it as "The Silver Star".) Further symbolism of the "three wise men" is that the Magi were sun worshippers. Gold, frankincense and myrhh were the traditional gifts by Arabian Magi to the Sun and that's why you have 3 wise men giving these gifts to Mithra and Jesus in different versions of the same myth. The birth of Jesus in a cave (and indeed being laid to rest in one) is one that is repeated through many if not all, of the solar religion myths. The cave represents the "dark place" where the sun goes between the winter solstice and the night of December 24th. This is also symbolic of Jesus going down to the underworld when his physical body was lying in the tomb for 3 days. That's where the whole story comes from.
Being Tempted In The Wilderness For 40 Days: This is a VERY common theme for solar gods. A researcher called Albert Churchwood writes that the Egyptians guess-timated it took 40 days after grain was "sown" before it appeared through the soil. This would be a period of fasting and scarcity. So Jesus is depicted as fasting in the wilderness and "Satan" challenges him to turn stones into bread. The batt;es between the light and the darkness and also when Jesus defeated the darkness is symbollic of the time in the sun's cycle when there is more darkness each day than there is daytime. The 40 years the Israelites were supposed to have spent in the desert is more grain symbolism turned into a manufactured and allegedly "historical" text.
The Words Jesus Spoke: They weren't in any way original for a start. They were repeated from a whole line of similar solar deities. Horus delivered a Sermon on the Mount in Egyptian myth and the version with Jesus in is just an updated version with the same sayings. Some of them even come from earlier texts IN THE SAME BOOK! The books of Enoch for example. Change parts of them into a narrative and you've got the gospels to a tee.
The Crucifiction: Many of these mythical solar deities were crucified to save the sins of the people. It is a very old ritual, predating Christianity by millenia. Jesus on the cross represents the sun at the spring equinox in one way and the dying god, Balder, in another. The crown of thorns is symbolic of a halo, which ancient cultures have always depicted around the heads of their solar deities. (A standing stone in England with a Sumerian/Phoenician depiction of Bel/Bil on it springs to mind.) On top of this, the cross being a religious symbol, was not unique to Christianity at all. It was used thousands of years before 1 BC. Even Jesus said to his disciples "pick up thy cross and walk" before the idea of crucifiction had entered the scene at all. Indeed the idea of a religious man/godling nailed to a cross was so familiar to pagan religions that early Christians rejected the idea! The god from Central america, Quetzalcoatl, was depicted nailed to a cross many times. The cross is symbollic of the equinox when day hours and night hours are equal, and the sun is about to win it's victory over the darkness. At the moment Jesus dies, according to the Bible, the land became dark. So it would have done if the son had "died". (As it was symbollically doing.) As for the ressurectuion after three days, well we've covered that before in great detail. In Persia (long before 1 BC again) there was a ritual when a young man, apparently dead, was restored to life. He was called the Saviour andhis sufferings were said to ensure the salvation of the people. The priests would watch the tomb until midnight on the equinox, when they would cry "Rejoice, O sacred initiated! Your god is risen. His death ad suffering have worked your salvation." The same was said in Egypt of Horus and in India of Krishna. Both religions pre-date Christianity by ages. And going back to the two thieves. This is symbolism again. As I've already said thieves were'nt crucified in Rome anyway; they are probably symbolic of Sagittarius and Capricorn, which swap over at the winter solstice. Thus, the sun "dies" between them.
John The Baptist: This guy was a recreation of a dude called Anup, who baptised Horus in Egyptian legend. LIke john, Anup lost his head. Indara/Thor of royalty in Sumer was also known as "Bil-The-Baptist" on Sumerian seals and was also known as Ad or Atum baptising the infant crown prince on Egyptian sculptures. Baptism was introduced by the Sumerians, bot the Christians. It appears to have originated in the post cataclysmic era in the Phoenician/St. George area of Cappadocia. John the Baptist and his assosciation with water further cements his relationship with the water sign, Aquarius; the sun travels through there to be "baptised" according to myth. The sun enters Aquarius at 30 degrees and Jesus gets dunked by John at 30 years old. The zodiac circle of Greek fame was renamed Crown Of The Circle Of The Holy Apostles (zodiacle representations) by medieval monks and they placed John the Baptist where Aquarius is located. King Arthur and the 12 Knights of the Round Table are also sun and zodiacal symbolism, as is Horus and his 12 followers. In the Julian calendar of the Romans, John the Baptist dies on the 29th of August. In the bok Christianity Before Christ by John Jackson, he says "On that day, a specially bright star, representing the head of the constellation of Aquarius, rises while the rest of the body is below the horizon, at exactly the same time as the sun sets in Leo (the kingly star-sign, representing Herod). Thus the latter beheads John, because john is assosciated with Aquarius, and the horizon cuts off the head of Aquarius!" The reference to the "man carrying the water pitcher" in Luke's Gospel is more Aquarial symbolism, John the Baptist is an exact duplication of Bala-rama, the fore0runner of Krishna. No big suprise.
The 12 Disciples: As David Icke, that much villified and ridiculed author, says in Children Of The Matrix, "Is there a universal law that all deities must have 12 disciples or followers?" However much people laugh about the interview with Terry Wogan, that is a very pertinent question. Jesus had 12, so did Buddha, King Arthur(at any one time- there are more than 12 knights named in the legends of course), Mithra too, Dionysus and so did many other symbols of the sun. There were the 12 sons of Jacob, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 chief gods of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians. this fixation with 12, develops again and again from solar symbolism; with their disciples and followers representing the months of the year and the signs of the zodiac. Indeed, the Romans openly symbolised the sun as a man's face and the zodiacal signs as his followers. During summer the man's face would be pictured as long haired, representing the strong rays. During the winter, they'd be cut short. Remember the story of Samson? The bloke who was a Nazerite and was strong when his hair was long, but weak when it was short? You know what "Samson" translates into crude English as? The "son of the sun god". For Samson, read Sam-SUN. His story goes wrong when he enters the house of Delilah. this is symbolic of the house of virgo, which the sun enters as Autumn approaches in the northern hemisphere. It ends when he pushes down the twin pillars in the temple. Twin pillars are heavy Freemasonic symbols. Nearly as much so as the "all seeing eye" you can see on a USA $1 bill. Ever wondered why most of the world's economy was stretegised from the NYTC? Picture the place in your mind, (as it was before 9/11) and then back off. Notice anything about the design, that is relavent? Thought you might. Another example of sacred architechture in modern civillisation. The Canary Wharf/Thames/Milenium Dome is another one I mentioned earlier. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John after whom the gospels are named represent the four cardinal signs of the zodiac. They are also symbolised in cathedrals as a man(Aquarius), an ox (Taurus), a lion (Leo) and an eagle(Scorpio), together refered to as the four creatures of the apocalypse. In a book called Forgery In Christianity, Joseph Wheless says... "The Holy Twelve had no existence in the flesh, but their "cue" being taken from Old Testament legends,they were mere names-dramatis personae-mask of the play-of "tradition", such as Sheakspeare and all the playwrights and fiction-writers create for the actors of their plays and works of admitted fiction." In ancient versions of todays secret societies (which are known to go back at least to Egypt and probably further) the spokeperson for the god was called a PETR. (Pronounced Peter.) This translates as "rock". I can imagine the vicar choking on his tea right now. In the Egyptian "Book Of The Dead", the name of the doorkeeper of heaven is Petra. Careful vicar, you'll spill it all over the carpet.
St. Paul: This seems like a viscious circle. The only single record of the existence of anyon called St. Paul or Saul of Tarsus, is within the New Testsment. It's the same with Jesus, the same with the lot of them. (Inluding the leading lights of the Old Testament.) The Roman historian Seneca was the brother of the Achaian proconsul when "Paul" was alleged to have spokent there. But, although Seneca noted many incredibly mundane things (by comparison) he doesn't mention a smegging word about Paul's public crusade. Okay, it's quiz time again. Who am I refering to? He lived in Tarsus (a part of asia Minor) as a young boy; he travelled to Ephesus where he spoke in front og enormous crowds and performed miracles; before travelling on to Athens and Corinth. Then he went on to Rome, where he was accused of treason, before going on to what is now Spain, then Africa. He then returned to Sicily and Italy. He was then dragged off to Rome and imprisoned; a place from which he heroically escaped. Sounds just like St. Paul right? Nope. This was a story told about a Greek figure called Apollonius of Tyana. (Who oddly enough, was refered to as a "Nazarene" in some accounts.) In the latin language, his name translated into Apollus and Paulus!! Scary eh? Aslo the scary journey that Paul had by sea on the way to Rome, was a duplicate of what allegedly happened to a Jewish historian called Josephus. This story has been repeated time than The Towering Inferno.
Phew! I'm sure there's more I'll remember or dig up, as this thread progresses, but for now I'm too tired to try. It's 1 AM and I've been on this post for 3 hours. I would really like some insightful comments from other people here. If you do believe in the Bible story (even if you reject organised religion, as a lot of you do) please tell me what the flaw in my research (and the research of the authors I researched) is. Tell me why you think I'm wrong.
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The "don't question God" or the "because it's in the Bible" responses are much like the "because I said so!" response you get when you're a kid and you ask an adult a problematic or complicated question. It usually means the person saying it is too narrow-minded to think of anything intelligent to say. Either that, or there is literally NOTHING to say, because what they're defending has been demolished by logic. (Or at least what we perceive as logic.) It's a natural and very healthy human instinct to question and probe into things that we don't completely understand, and it would be deeply saddening if your experinces stopped you doing that. From the limited info you gave us, it sounds like your mother is deeply institutionalised into strict, fundemental Christianity. Now I would'nt reccomend that you deliberatley try to force your opinions down her throat, because that will only drive a wedge between the two of you. If the views that you eventually form are too contradictory to hers, then just try to avoid discussion of the subject. One of the biggest pleasures there are in life, are the bonds between us and our close familly. I'd hate to think of anyone being ostracised from either of their parents; so try to keep the waters calm. But that doesn't mean you should give your mind away and become an automaton either! You should always question yourself about what you believe and think about spirituality a lot. I think some people would believe frm reading what I wrote that I'm saying there is no such thing as spirit or spiritulism. Nothing could be further from the truth! Spiritualism is the biggest power each, individual, human being has. Connection to it, is the thing that can free any human, frmo ANY bond; spiritual or physical. I talked a lot about the power of the sun's electro-magnetism earlier; well the etheric body is PURE electro-magnetism! That's why a living human has an electro-magnetic charge and a corpse doesn't! We know that you can't destroy energy, only convert it into another expression, so where does that energy go when someone dies? Into other planes and dimensions of existence I would suggest.
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Okay 46and2, that's what I found of my previous scribblings in about 20 minutes. there might be more on other threads, but I think it would be all variations on the same theme. All the previous legends of Christ like figures in pagan religions, weren't prophecy of something to come, as Omega claimed. They are unequivocably religions set down in the distant past, when they were being worshipped. In other words, they'd already reputedly happened. I don't think there can be any evidence more damning about how we've been robbed of our spititual power, by being hounded into these prison-religions. As their hold on the people weakened, conventional "science" was brought in to replace them. This "science" doesn't explain human spitituality truly, any more than religion does. It's just another pathetically limited attempt, to rob us of what it is our free-born right to know!
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Well Jim it's going to take a little while to read and digest all this information you shared with me. Two points for you to ponder -
1. I can't find anything in the Bible that says Ahmed is going to hell for eternity. Ahmed is a child and probably has never even heard the message of Jesus Christ, let alone understood it and had a chance to accept it. The Bible does say that God will condemn all those who hear, understand and reject the message, not children who do not have the capacity to make a choice.
2. You can't ever "gain" the grace of God. Grace is a gift from God that none of us deserves. You don't/can't "earn" it by belonging to a "religion". You need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Well, I have to read and ponder all this info you gave me. Thanks, take care.
1. I can't find anything in the Bible that says Ahmed is going to hell for eternity. Ahmed is a child and probably has never even heard the message of Jesus Christ, let alone understood it and had a chance to accept it. The Bible does say that God will condemn all those who hear, understand and reject the message, not children who do not have the capacity to make a choice.
2. You can't ever "gain" the grace of God. Grace is a gift from God that none of us deserves. You don't/can't "earn" it by belonging to a "religion". You need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Well, I have to read and ponder all this info you gave me. Thanks, take care.
gibby59 said:
That second point took me three or four readings before I finally got it. To be honest my friend, it sounds like pure "doublethink" from Orwell's 1984. You say that God's grace is not dependant on belonging to a particular religion, yet you then say that it depends on having a relationship with Jesus. If someone isn't a Christian, they then must be denied the grace, because they can hardly have a relationship with Him if they're not washed in the blood, can they?
As for the first point, what then about Ahmed's parents? They're of full age and they will certainly have heard about Christianity as a faith. All their lives they've sung praises to God and asked his blessing and forgiveness. Their faith is an accident of geography and they've certainly been told all the stuff about "the one true faith" the same as Christians have. Yet because they hear about Christianity but choose to reject it, no matter how good and worthwhile and charitable their lives are, they're doomed. If that were true, I think it makes God pretty racist.
Anyway, thanks for your good wishes my friend. Someone else of faith who I shared this article with refused to comment on it because she didn't like the tone, which is why I warned you in advance. I'm glad we can disagree about what we believe in and still remain cordial. 🙂 You take care as well and...
May the Force be with you. 😉 (Wait till you hear what I believe in! 😀)
BigJim said:
Ahmed's parents are adults and capable of discerning between right and wrong, good and evil. They're faith is not an "accident" of geography, they have a choice to follow what they choose. The people who follow Islam believe that Jesus Christ existed. They do not believe that he is God in the flesh. Their holy book, the Quaran, states in many places that killing anyone who does not follow Islam is a good thing to do. To paraphrase a line from the Indiana Jones movie about searching for the holy grail - "They chose poorly." I fail to see how giving every human being on the face of the earth the same chance to choose the right path is racist.
Question Jim - Why are you so angry with God and Christianity?
alf1
4th Level Orange Feather
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I suppose i won't see that movie anyway. About what has been said here.
I have not red the bible and i do not feel any worse - i feel better even 🙂. There are much more interesting books to read i think..... 🙄
Saying that i am not against religion - catholics here -
It's everyone choice to believe or not in something ( have heard of atheism ?? ).
And what is a good catholic ? someone that just goes in church and prays every sunday ? or can you be a good catholic not going in churches and so on and doing good things around you ? ask yourself or read again the bible
Wow do not know how many pages in it but it must hurt when hitted with LOL.
And nowadays religion is used as a trademark so......nevermind.
By the way i come from the country used to be known as one of the most catholic in Europe : Poland. And i am an atheist 🙂.
I have not red the bible and i do not feel any worse - i feel better even 🙂. There are much more interesting books to read i think..... 🙄
Saying that i am not against religion - catholics here -
It's everyone choice to believe or not in something ( have heard of atheism ?? ).
And what is a good catholic ? someone that just goes in church and prays every sunday ? or can you be a good catholic not going in churches and so on and doing good things around you ? ask yourself or read again the bible
Wow do not know how many pages in it but it must hurt when hitted with LOL.
And nowadays religion is used as a trademark so......nevermind.
By the way i come from the country used to be known as one of the most catholic in Europe : Poland. And i am an atheist 🙂.
Camel26
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Are we seriously going to have this debate on this site?? Because I see it turning very ugly very quickly, as there are so many varying degrees of "faith" represented here and so many different religions...people are going to be offended and leave the site when this is a place that is supposed to promote harmony by crossing the boundaries and borders that distance, sometimes language, and even religion have put in place...can't we all just get along???
gibby59 said:
For the record, christians have a much worse record of slaughtering muslims than muslims do of slaughtering Christians. Richard the Lionheart for a starter acted like a complete animal towards the Islamic citizens of cities he captured, whereas his muslim opponent Saladin, acted considerately towards the citizens of cities he captured. He ordered that non-combatants be dispatched to holding areas to keep them away from fighting and that combatants who threw down their weapons and plead for quarter should be taken prisoner instead of executed. Richard's crusaders on the other hand, left streets knee-deep with the dead women and children. The Bible is full of instances where the "Christian God" incited his followers to some mind-bending acts of savagery. For instance...
Exodus 32.27 "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel... slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour"
Numbers 21.35 "So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left alive."
Numbers 31.7 "... and they slew all the males."
Numbers 31.17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones"
Deuteronomy 2.34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
Deuteronomy 3.6-7 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves."
One of the biggest gits of all biblical time, is Moses, the fictional Christian counterpart of Sargon of Babylonian myth.
Deuteronomy 13.15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
Deuteronomy 20.16-17 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:"
Deuteronomy 32.25 "The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both young man and the virgin, the suckling also and the man of grey hairs."
Along with Judaism, the religious bedmate of Christianity, these passages incite the followers of God to what is nothing less than genocide. Sickening and sad.
And yes, it is an accident of geography. Most religions are present to one degree or another in any country you care to name. I'd guess that Iraq has a small but physical Hindu presence tucked away somewhere. But each country has it's dominant religion that sets itself up as the "true faith" that is purer than the rest. In places like Iraq, Iran and elsewhere it's Islam. In America it's Christianity. Where Islam is dominant you can bet your life that they truely believe everything the same about it as you do about the Christian path. To see religions as being different from each other is to fall for the oldest trick in the book; smoke and mirrors. Getting the followers to see each other as different or even worse, as "wrong", has been the easiest way to divide and rule. People have been bludgeoning each other to death to prove their religion is th the holiest for millenia; and where precisely has it gotten us? Absoloutely frigging nowhere! Instead of celebrating our differences and leaving the judging up to God himself, we've been acting as we had sole discretion and judgement power.
gibby59 said:
I'm angry with neither. My conception of "God" is different to yours; I view Him/it more as a source of all love and energy. What I believe probably doesn't differ too hugely from the Jedi idea of "the Force". God is my friend, my strength and my greatest aid in times of trial. So great is He/it in fact, that I couldn't belong to a religion, lest his influence on me be diluted. (All that crap about guilt, original sin, being born a sinner and self-loathing makes me want to vomit.)
Nor am I angry with christianity. I believe it to be a prison of the mind invented by a ruling class that was originally based in Babylon and then in Rome. I don't believe it to be the "one true path" any more than I do judging one's political prospects from studying the auguries in a slaughtered chicken's guts. Everything I've ever studied shows that it was a political tool invented to imprison the emotions and keep mankind drowned beneath a tide of negative emotions and sanctimonious morality. I am not angry with those who follow the Christian faith either. As I said yesterday, diversity of opinion is a wonderful thing and it's something we can always have if we obey the golden tenet of respecting everyone's right to express their individuality in the same way that we wish to. I respect your right to believe in whatever faith and whatever division of that faith that you wish to. I would count you a friend, buy you a drink, share my home and whatever else with anyone, regardless of their faith.
The way I see it, you've got it made. If I'm right, then everyone in the world only has to live a good life, be charitable, hospitable and respectful of society and others and "God" will gather them in. If you're right then I could give half my income to charity, spend my spare time volunteering to help the elderly, raise a law-abiding and wonderful family and I'd still go to hell because I believe Jesus Christ to be a fictional fabrication. I know who's "faith" sounds more loving to me.
Camel26 said:
I hope you'll see the latter part of my last post in a good light, considering what you just said. I think it'd be very sad to hide our opinions and views, simply because we lacked the ability to get along with people who are different from us.
I've said it before and I'll say it again...
Whatever your belief or lack thereof, I don't care! You have the right to believe what you want and to have whatever opinions you want. In turn I have the right to both of those myself. I will happily call someone a friend who has different opinions on spirituality to me, beause diversity of everything is wonderful. Let's acknowledge that we have many differences, not just of faith, and still be friends. Our differences can be something we cherish and compare, not villify each other for. 🙂
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alf said:
LOL "Ticklish" subject. 😀
Nah, I don't think it's gone bad, I think we just lost sight of what was important for a moment or two. We've all got something in common here (tickling) and we can all come back to that at the end of the day. Some people's religious beliefs (the creator of the TMF's for one!) are so f***ed up that they turn against tickling and try and convince everyone that they're going to hell if they carry on doing it. Makes me laugh, it does.
As I said above, let's CELEBRATE the fact that we have a lot of diversity here. It needn't be a source of recrimination and bickering. It can be something we while away a few pleasant minutes considering. I've explained why I believe what I do and I doubt very much if a committed religious person would be swayed by what I say. Likewise, they have not a hope in the galaxy of turning me religious. Nor do I seek to bully people round to my point of view. I'm happy for people to agree and disagree with me as they see fit. 🙂
Camel26 said:
No we're not going to have this debate here. It would take years and neither Jim nor I would change our beliefs. I would like to point out that I did not refer to Jim's beliefs as "All that crap about guilt, original sin, being born a sinner and self-loathing makes me want to vomit". I habor no hatred of him, nor do I wish to slaughter him. I accept Jim as he is and I will pray for him. If he were here I'd buy him a pint and we could trade stories of our tickling experiences.
I only asked who was going to see the movie.
gibby59 said:
Ah, I don't think those necessarily describe your beliefs either Gibby. 🙂 If you remember I said I had nothing against Christians temselves, nor the fact that they choose that faith. What I have a healthy distaste for are those who use the faith as a tool of control and politics. For those who are like that, controlling people by inhibiting them with guilt, self-loathing and repression of the emotions is high on their daily agenda. There are plenty of people from all religions who express a loving spirituality through their faith. Even though their spiritual perspective differs from mine, I believe that such people are very good and will go to "heaven", whatever their perspective of it is.
I also accept you for what and who you are and would cheerfully buy you a pint in return. I would pray for you, but I doubt you need it as you seem a peaceable and good person whose soul is in no danger.
To get back onto the original topic, I think I will definately be going to see this film. I'm a big theological scholar and have read the Bible, my english copy of the Koran and some Vedas texts, among others. I love anyhting with this sort of story and I'm sure I'll enjoy the film immensely. If anything of the Bible has any basis in fact though, you can bet that a prat like Gibson will completely ignore it and make sensationalist fiction the front-piece for the film. With his track record in Braveheart and The Patriot to go on, it's only to be expected.
I enjoyed both films as well, but was painfully aware of just how many liberties were being taken with history.gibby59 said:
The burning of the church with the women and children inside, was taken straight from an act committed in either France or the Netherlands by Nazi soldiers in World War 2. It's also true that the character of the evil English Colonel was completely fictional, as is the fact that the Americans beat the British. (It was a stand-off and the British offered peace terms for no apparent reason at all. Not such a mad move when you consider that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and all the rest were related to the British royal familly and aristocracy and that American courts are still to this day governed by British Maritime Law; hence the gold fringes on flags in legal establishments.)
Braveheart had the name of William Wallace and the names of various battles correct, but that was about all. The rest of it is complete twaddle.
Yet despite these rather obvious frauds, many American left cinemas in tears, saying "Oh I do hate those bloody British! How could they be like that?"
Because they'd seen it on the big screen the gormless buggers just accepted that it was unquestionable fact! (Mind you they also do the same with the crap they see on CNN, so why should a movie be any different?)
Entertaining films to be sure, but you have to have as much a willing suspension of disbelief as you do for watching Star Wars.
tummynavelboy
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gibby59 or Jim have any of you ever read the book The Case for Christ by:Lee Strobel? im just wondering if you have or not. i haven't really read it much. But my dad Randy has he says its a very Good book. my dad has been a Christian now for over 25+ years. We go to a baptist Church
here is a link to the book
http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...39011?item_no=20930&netp_id=115837&event=EFIN
and also Jim in one of your posts eariler back i read that you left being a Chrisian ingeneral i think you said. and Why is that may i add? Because if your a true Christian and a follower and beliver in Jesus Christ. then you'd belive in and follow Gods plans and his teachings. Because there is no half Christian or Half beliver in God is doesn't really work that way. sorry if you taken offence to this :sad: . i was Just wondering thats all Jim 🙂
Thank you everybody for listening
here is a link to the book
http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...39011?item_no=20930&netp_id=115837&event=EFIN
and also Jim in one of your posts eariler back i read that you left being a Chrisian ingeneral i think you said. and Why is that may i add? Because if your a true Christian and a follower and beliver in Jesus Christ. then you'd belive in and follow Gods plans and his teachings. Because there is no half Christian or Half beliver in God is doesn't really work that way. sorry if you taken offence to this :sad: . i was Just wondering thats all Jim 🙂
Thank you everybody for listening
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