• If you would like to get your account Verified, read this thread
  • Check out Tickling.com - the most innovative tickling site of the year.
  • The TMF is sponsored by Clips4sale - By supporting them, you're supporting us.
  • >>> If you cannot get into your account email me at [email protected] <<<
    Don't forget to include your username

Message from England

AffectionateDan

1st Level Black Feather
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Messages
8,115
Points
36
Message from England

No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war,
this, from an English journalist, is very interesting.   Just a word of
background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror.
This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of
the Colonials across the Atlantic.

*******************************************************************

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the
mass murder of thousands, live on television.   As a lesson in the pitiless
cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage
in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that
surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's
comeuppance.   Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last
year.

There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country;
too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans -
but it has become an epidemic.   And it seems incredible to me. More than
that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally.   We are
bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.   A little over half a
century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as
well as their own.   Have we forgotten so soon?   And exactly a year ago,
thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but
from dozens of countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics.
Are we  so quick to betray them? What touched the heart about those who
died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them.  
Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands,
wives, and children, some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves?   Their nation is to blame for
their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.   The
anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering
from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it
likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember, remember -

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say,
"I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning
skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of
the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember -

And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like
the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass
the Kleenex . . .

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes?   A shame, but maybe
next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength.   American voices are already being
raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for.   How many
in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
innocents of 9/11?   How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that
the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street.   America watched all of that -- and
didn't push the button.   We should thank the stars that America is the
most powerful nation in the world.   I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war.   Not a "war on terrorism."  A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if
America attacks Iraq.   Well, America could have opened the gates of hell
like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of
the earth.   The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect
and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched
countries.   How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the
Muslim world?   You can count them on the fingers of one hand-assuming you
haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated.   I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.

But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.
Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich,
free, strong, open, optimistic.   Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system.   America is the best friend this country ever had and
we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil?   Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning
towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked
planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.   And tell it to
the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire
Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.   Once we
were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up
rape-camps in Kuwait.   Now we are told he likes Quality Street.   Save me
the orange center, Oh Mighty One!

Remember, remember, September 11 -

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against
America.

No, do more than remember.   Never forget.




"If more of our so-called leaders would walk the same streets as the people who voted them in, live in the same buildings, eat the same food instead of hiding behind glass and steel and bodyguards, maybe we'd get better leadership and a little more concern for the future."
 
Wow, Dan...I wonder if he still has a job after writing that one😉

Thanks for sharing...



Ven
 
This proves not all leftists are anti-American. 😀 Thanks, Dan. That's a great article. 🙂
 
My pleasure to share, folks...

...The shame of it is, it's too easy to lose sight of it, getting back to the daily grind of life.:sadcry: :disgust: :dropatear
 
Maybe down the road, America will be seen as a gentle giant.

True that we could have been much more heinous in our rebuttal to the message shared with us on 9/11. It's a shame, isn't it, that any response was considered too much? :sowrong:

Thanks for sharing Dan. I'm curious that there aren't many responses to this post, and none from our TMF-ers overseas. 🙁

Joby
 
No problem...

The majority of America won't ever forget, or forgive....rest assured. I've written on this topic before and I will again, as often as necessary. Whenever I see it called a "tragedy" or an "event" I'll be there to correct that statement immediately. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are legitimate "tragedies, events, disasters etc.". Flying planes full of people into buldings to kill as many other people as possible is an attack. Wanton naked aggression that called for a response...and got half of what it deserved.

I won't forget....and I'm sure millions of Americans feel the same way. Q
 
That is an AWESOME article.

It reminds me of an article that a Canadian wrote about the USA several decades ago where he spelled out how our country always came to assist other countries and yet when we were in trouble ourselves, hardly anyone raised a hand. I had never heard it before until the first day of the Gulf War when KGO played it. It brought tears to my eyes. They were tears of pride and gratefulness for this country I live in.

Thanks Danimal. You always find the most wonderful articles to share with us. Thank you!
 
wow...

i'd like to shake that englishman's hand, and say thank you.

steve
 
WOW! A great article, and I agree with "Do more than remember, do not forget!"
Thanks for sharing such a great article Dan!🙂
 
I will never forget what happened here in NYC that day, nor will I forget the people that cheered joyously at the news of it.

Thanks for posting that supporting view from England, Dan. It is good to know that some people, not in the US and often not sympathetic to us, understand the enormity of the crime committed against us.
 
Another message from England....

Dans assertion that the Daily Mirror is left wing is a little wide of the mark, it is a Labour Party suppporting paper, wich is rather a different thing these days, on that basis some would put it to the right of Ghengis Khan! I dont follow Dans reference to "colonials across the atlantic" in the context of a left leaning newspaper, the concept of Impirialism is anathema to left wing doctorine, even in its tenuous Daily Mirror form.

Parsons starts off rather unwisely talking about unspeakable acts of cruelty in various places including Cambodia, thats just round the corner from that other place....er...oh whats it called?.....Vietnam, and that feller Kissinger and that agent orange stuff,about which one might say.....
"An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that
surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil."

Any anti American feeling in this country is about the proposed war in Iraq, NOT war against terrorism. Not one single Brit of any political persuasion is against tracking down the perpetrators and facillitators of such acts as 9/11 and indeed people who finance terrorist groups of any kind (American supporters of Noriad please note).

Before you all get too starry eyed about Mr Parsons I suggest you read some of the front pages of the paper who pays him, Bin laden would be only too pleased to have it thrown through the front on his cave each morning. Traditionally it has always been the British left wing that is anti American, most Brits are pro American and so is most of the press, Parsons needs to get out more.

He gets in a bit of a mess with his remarks about U.S. involvement in WW2 has he forgotten how much persuasion that took? has he forgotten the strong anti British sentiment in the U.S. pre pearl harbour? many Americans felt the end of the dastardly British Empire was well over due,and why should they get involved in someone elses back yard scrap over ill gotten european territory?

His statement about Americans dying for our freedoms "as well as their own" is mistifying, Britain fought and died for its freedoms before the U.S. got involved,but we fought together for europes freedom. How you fought for you own freedoms in WW2 is beyound me, indeed many Americans who went to war in europe to fight for "freedom and democracy" came home wondering why they could not have it as well?
has Mr Parsons not heard of the civil rights movement in the 60,s? and how does he square that with his assertion that we hate you because you are."Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system."?

He keeps banging on about "how soon we forget" well, speak for yourself Mr Parsons and your left wing pals on the mirror, we do not forget and we are great full. Mr Parsons would do well to remember that we are still paying back the U.S. for their generosity under "lend lease" and that it was cut off very sharply in 1945 and has been a massive financial burden ever since. Unlike previous wars where the vanquished foot the bill, Britain paid and is still paying a high price.

Then he has the nerve to blame "conservatives suffering from power envy" dear oh dear!! I think its Mr Parsons who needs to do a lot more remembering, the conservative party is and always has been fundmentally pro American,much to the disgust of his paper, and has he forgotten which party Winston Churchill belonged to? the man who got the Americans in to the war, the man who very conciously and deliberatly gave away the empire to help save europe?

Parsons then prattles on about how admirable American restraint has been since 9/11 but he is missing the point. Post veitnam and post the demise of the USSR it is no longer politically acceptable to go charging about the globe starting wars without a significant measure of domestic and international support, also it makes no difference how much "ass" the Americans are capable of kicking in a conventional war,if it did 9/11 would not have happened. The U.S. strength is its weakness and its current enemy,s weakness is its strength.
 
Hmmm,
Red, sweetie, I don't doubt your interpretation of the piece Dan posted. I know you're a fanatic when it comes to history and the accuracy therein. I won't question that.

I do hold issue with your last comments.

Parsons then prattles on about how admirable American restraint has been since 9/11 but he is missing the point. Post veitnam and post the demise of the USSR it is no longer politically acceptable to go charging about the globe starting wars without a significant measure of domestic and international support, also it makes no difference how much "ass" the Americans are capable of kicking in a conventional war,if it did 9/11 would not have happened.

So you're saying that retaliation to a flat out attack on a country that killed thousands now also requires international support or the original victims are rightfully labeled as terrorists in their own right? Is that how you're saying the world sees America? For someone who bashes America for it's political correctness and bowing to sensitivity, it seems hypocritical of you to say that America should not respond with military force for fear of offending another country.

Personally, I don't agree with a flat our war either. It really jsut scares the bejesus outta me, but c'mon....do you think the US should have sat in a corner sucked it's thumb after the bombong of Pearl Harbor? 😕

You're talking about America, a country that very well could have been destructive and damaging to a large chunk of the world. That SHOULD be taken into consideration.

Why?

Simple...in spite of all that happened, we've shown restraint. That shows much more compassion, I dare say, than most countries would have shown in light of the same thing happening on their soil.

Jo
 
Dear Mistre....er........Dear Joby

Dont get confused with my opinions and my interpretation of the opinions of others, it is my understanding that the view of the international community would not sanction the U.S. waging war when and where it sees fit, and the U.S. government rightly or wrongly is mindfull of this in a way it has not been in the past, its my view that thats the way it is, not my personal preferance.

When you say a "flat out attack on a country that killed thousands" which country do you mean? Iraq? is that where the 9/11 terrorists were from? is that were they are now? are they planning more attacks from there? is this why the U.S. wants to attack? I wish I knew!


Its a bit daft comparing pearl harbour, you knew who did it and where they came from, this is not the case now. When it comes to restraint how about we hear it from the U.S. for our 30 plus years of restraint over not nuking Ireland? can you imagine the outrage in the U.S.? "Imperial relic Britain nukes the emerald isle just to kill a hand full of fanatical extremists whos only crime was to kill, maim, and torture and few thousand people"
 
Dear Tickle Sla...er...Dear Red

ok, you almost had me going until you hit the Ireland bit. 😛

I'll just nod, and say ok here.
Joby
 
I'd like to point out, Red, that...

...these aren't MY assertions or observations. All I did was cut and paste the article into here to share it with those who'd appreciate it. Any nitpicking to be done can be cheerfully directed at whomever actually wrote the bloody thing. Frankly, I'm sick of America-bashing so rapidly becoming a world favorite pasttime. I say we bring all our troops home from the places they're protecting (and the paychecks they spend in the local economies with them), stop doling out foreign aid to all these third-world dungholes that despise us in spite of our help, and start dealing with our own problems here at home before we even glance overseas. Oh hell, I'm just gonna shut the hell up right now before I go off on a RANT.:sowrong:
 
Hey be fair Dan............

........I do mention the name "Parsons" many times in my post and it is a post about his views not yours (apart from the first few lines) so its pretty clear i am talking about him not you ok?
 
It's true, Red. You did.

I'm just a frustrated American Patriot who's been told that it's UNpatriotic to think that George II is a daft prick who's steamrolling the country into a war that NONE of the people who "elected" him (The Commander In Thief, deserter and all-around mental retard, ugh, no, I'm not gonna get started... sorry) want or support. I was snappish before and I regret it, but ARGH! Something's gotta change in this country, we all know it, but nobody wants to hear what needs to be said, do what needs to be done. We're burying our heads in the sand and riding it out, and that just CHAPS MY ASS. I'm sick of our men and women getting sent off to die for the interests of Big Money with the facade of doing the right thing. Not all that long ago, we went and freed the people of Kuwait from that caffiene-free Hitler that's running Iraq, and now these same people are killing American servicemen. It's the same story, the world over. Makes for one very grumpy Grizz Man.
 
AffectionateDan said:
When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button.

What, the entire country went up in one giant cheer?

I love the way that the media find the local bunch of looneys and present them as the face of an entire country. Same as the Michigan Militia being presented as normal right-wing Americans. Same as Paul Hogan being presented as Australian. Find the disgruntled fruit-cakes and film them waving flags, because that makes much better tv than a muslim family watching in absolute horror and revulsion as the towers collapsed.


"And now, live and exclusive for FOX Excrement News in Palestine, a Crazy Arab With A Hook."

*subtitles for Crazy Arab With A Hook* The great Satan will fall and the imperialist Yankee pig-dogs will all burn in hell for their oppression of the Arab people!

"Ladies and Gentlemen, representing the views of the entire Muslim world, A Crazy Arab With A Hook. Back to you, Bob."


When I saw those people celebrating, it looked like a pretty shitty demonstration of about 50 people or so. I bet you could probably find 50 people in pretty much any major city anywhere who would celebrate a terrorist attack on America, and be glad to do it in front of the camera. Hi Mom! I'm on tv!
 
hey red ,

i suggest you read something not printed on the biased about ww2, before shooting off your gob!
if it weren't for america, your island would be speaking german now!
that's not just opinion, that's fact!
in america we have a document called the constitution. it is the final arbator of law on how america will act, not your bleeding heart u.n.!
in regards to irland? go ahead and bomb it, it's a shit hole already, but you brits sure have screwed the pooch over there. you don't even have out legal constraints, and can't get the job done!
when your house isn't made of glass, then throw your stones!
steve
 
Yeah, pretty amazing, isn't it?

Biggles of 266 said:


What, the entire country went up in one giant cheer?

I love the way that the media find the local bunch of looneys and present them as the face of an entire country. Same as the Michigan Militia being presented as normal right-wing Americans. Same as Paul Hogan being presented as Australian. Find the disgruntled fruit-cakes and film them waving flags, because that makes much better tv than a muslim family watching in absolute horror and revulsion as the towers collapsed.


"And now, live and exclusive for FOX Excrement News in Palestine, a Crazy Arab With A Hook."

*subtitles for Crazy Arab With A Hook* The great Satan will fall and the imperialist Yankee pig-dogs will all burn in hell for their oppression of the Arab people!

"Ladies and Gentlemen, representing the views of the entire Muslim world, A Crazy Arab With A Hook. Back to you, Bob."


When I saw those people celebrating, it looked like a pretty shitty demonstration of about 50 people or so. I bet you could probably find 50 people in pretty much any major city anywhere who would celebrate a terrorist attack on America, and be glad to do it in front of the camera. Hi Mom! I'm on tv!


How we keep seeing that same gang of fifty 'loonies' burning the American flag over here, or an Uncle Sam in effigy over there, at various points all over. Boy, those guys sure do get around. And those mischievous scamps in Somalia dragging that dead U.S. Marine's corpse through the street as people cheered, spit on it, kicked it, until he was nothing more than an unrecognizable dismembered torso (please, God, let that poor man have been dead already when they dragged him out of the helicopter they shot down), yeah, that was just a lark, I'm sure. Some bored locals who saw an American reporter and thought what a hoot it would be to show off. Or the American missionary and his wife and children that muslims trapped in their car in Pakistan and burned it while there were inside. Yes, strictly isolated incident there as well. Clearly, it's not the common opinion over there that the U.S. is the great Satan and they've got to take every opportunity to butcher, maim, and otherwise show the rest of the world that they're animals. Just a small minority of hooligans.

Just keep looking the other way. Bury your head in the sand again. It'll go away if we ignore it, right?
 
Thanks for that Areenactor.......

....I look forward to the english translation for most of it, but this bit about saving us from speaking german, it sounds most interesting, and here was me thinking there were no great revelations left to be revealed about WW2. Do you realise you are sitting on a fortune in publishing rights let alone public speaking and TV work?

So come on, lets have the full history according to Areenactor, dates, times, places. This could be the most important piece of historical research on the subject for many years....or.....could it be the same old bar room platitude that sums up the extent of your knowledge on the subject?.....surely not!
 
Red,

I'm definitely not keen on the idea of another war in Iraq. I think the shrub (Little Bush) should finish what's already started before stretching our troops too think getting into another ruckus. Frankly I'm extremely frustrated that our men and women in Afghanistan are not getting their due praise for what they are doing day in and day out. All we ever hear is when someone who is there gets killed or hurt.

What about our troops already at war in Afghanistan? What are they doing? How are they doing? I knew that engagement was not going to be as easy as it seemed with the previous attack on Iraq although I know it was much harder than the media made it out to be. I'm frustrated that the media has seen fit to just push them off to the side as if nothing was going on.

I agree with Dan. I think we should bring home our troops and pull the support we've given so many countries. We need to support our own homeland and we need to help ensure the safety of our own soil. I say a prayer every day for every service man or woman who so generously fought or fight day and night for our freedom.

And Dan... Keep posting those articles please. I just love them.
 
Glad we cleared that one up Dan!......

....just for the record though, I am not a fundamentalist extremist anti American, speaking as a jazz musician that would be tough act to pull off, I have always wanted to visit he states, and I love lots of things about America, but you are not above critisism, and because you are the worlds foremost economic and military power you are bound to be rather high profile in relation to the rest of the world. What you do tends to affect the rest of us whether we like it or not, so it kind of flows from that that you get talked about a lot by the rest of us. So when the U.S. decides to invade another country its bound to generate a fair bit of debate and some views may be unfavourable. This is not a crime, its called free speech, something the U.S. rightly prides its self on.

Regarding the war on Iraq, if i thought was going to be of benifit to the U.S. in the war on terrorism i would sign up for the military myself but the motives for it and the objectives are not at all clear. I dont think bush is going in just becuase Saddam is a bad boy, President Mugabe has slaughtered thousands of his own people,and is currently working hard at starving to death the people who did not vote for him,along with a dose of ethnic cleansing, vote rigging and thiefing of international aid. Is Mr Bush or any other country pressing for an invasion? is there to be enforcement of a U.N. resolution? is anyone asking for regime change?....er.....no.


Many other countries have weapons of mass destruction but there are no plans for invasion. Also there is no evidence that Saddam is playing host to Islamic extremists who are bent on the destruction of the U.S. they COULD be there but they could just as likely be in many other middle east countries. It would in fact be a little odd if they where in Iraq given that the ruling Ba,ath party is a secular party and certainly not high on muslim extremists xmas card list, Saddam has no truck with mullah,s or ayatolla,s and would have no qualms about putting a bullet through their heads if they got in his way. So is it a natural hiding place for them?


So I am worried about the lack of clear motive for this war but I am only too pleased to hear someone convince me otherwise.
 
Re: Glad we cleared that one up Dan!......

red indian said:

Regarding the war on Iraq, if i thought was going to be of benifit to the U.S. in the war on terrorism i would sign up for the military myself but the motives for it and the objectives are not at all clear. I dont think bush is going in just becuase Saddam is a bad boy, President Mugabe has slaughtered thousands of his own people,and is currently working hard at starving to death the people who did not vote for him,along with a dose of ethnic cleansing, vote rigging and thiefing of international aid. Is Mr Bush or any other country pressing for an invasion? is there to be enforcement of a U.N. resolution? is anyone asking for regime change?....er.....no.

So I am worried about the lack of clear motive for this war but I am only too pleased to hear someone convince me otherwise.


Ah, so it's not just me who's maddened by the inconsistencies about all this! Frankly, it all transcends the business-as-usual politician's shell game of Hey Look At Our Strong Wartime President, What A Leader, Huh? It's more often than not all simply smoke and mirrors to misdirect people's attention from the fact that they're corrupt and a cancer that's eating this country away from the inside. The Shrub (LOVE that one, Jan, :blaugh: ) is taking this WAY too personally, makes me question his motives even more. The country is at odds with itself on this one, too, about 45% against and 55% for another war in the big sandbox. Not like when we trounced them the first time, we were united and determined to support our boys because we were "doing the right thing", we got to wear the white hat and save the day, just like the good ol' USA is used to do. Not this time, though. This one stinks and nobody can put their finger on what's REALLY going on. Hopefully the fact that the UN and our allies aren't lining up to support us this time will deter ol' Georgie II from getting more of our boys killed to stroke his ego.
 
sigh... what I meant was, that the entire country doesn't hate America, it's just the bullshit that the news media like to show. Should we believe everything they tell us? If they show me 50 people celebrating in Palestine, I think "there are 50 sick people from Palestine," not "oh boy, all Palestinians hate us now!" We're both seeing what we want. I'm seeing selective depiction in support of government opinion, and you're seeing a world united in its hatred of America. Hopefully, we're both wrong.

Red... your topic of conversation is threatening to drag Neutered in here with a big hot burst of red white and boring rant. Can't wait to hear from him! :zzzzz:

Biggles
 
What's New

2/14/2025
Happy Valentines Day!
Door 44
Live Camgirls!
Live Camgirls
Streaming Videos
Pic of the Week
Pic of the Week
Congratulations to
*** brad1701 ***
The winner of our weekly Trivia, held every Sunday night at 11PM EST in our Chat Room
Back
Top