on "Tickle Torture"

[Phineas]

in a similar vein to "Why is Fantasy OK?", I thought I'd burble a little about something that comes up fairly regularly around here. That being, our throwing about of the word "torture".

We hear (and use) the term "tickle torture" all the time on the TMF, but it's obvious not everyone uses this term in the same way; some people use it symbolically, to denote the love-hate relationship they have with being tickled. others use it to verbally taunt these people, again, in a playful way; IE, "I'm going to torture you this weekend".

on the other hand, we have people for whom the "torture" is more important than the "tickle"; for good or ill, the playful nature of most tickle videos is unsatisfying for them and they want something more hardcore.

and finally, we have people who get it all confused. when people of the second group want to find their sort of material, the people of the first group throw a fit. this third group then condemns the first group's objection to the second group by saying "it's just tickle torture, get over it."

so this leads me to ask... why do we use the word "torture" around here? if you belong to the first group, you're essentially belittling a word with some very horrible connotations, leading the second and third groups to believe that torture is okay, as long as it's "only" delivered by tickling.

(my opinion on this is that it's baloney, by the way. any activity can be used to torture someone, no matter how benign)

if you're in the second group, you're either a sicko or a hypocrite; if you want real tickle torture, going by the literal interpretation, you basically want to see someone assaulted. Not Good. on the other hand, if you want "staged" torture, where the victim hates it but agreed to do it anyway, then you don't want *real* torture and shouldn't be bandying about the term that way, as it misrepresents your intentions (IE, you're not a sicko, but you're making people think you are).

then there's the third group, who say "it's only tickle torture". to this I say, strip away the word "tickle" and you're left with "torture". how can you justify it being A-OK to actually torture someone, regardless of how it's done? that's like me finding out my brother is deathly afraid of the Teletubbies and locking him in my room with the TV showing a 'Tubby marathon. I'm not actually *doing* anything to him, it's just television. So is this 'Tubby Torture? Most would say yes. But substitute Teletubbies with tickling, and suddenly it's okay. Why?

So, I'd like to hear from people in all groups. If you're in the first, do you agree with my assessments? If you're in the second or third, I'd like to hear your justifications on why torturing someone without their consent is okay. (caveat; "that's life" is not an acceptable response.) and if you're *not* advocating that (IE, you really want the "staged" variety), why are you acting like you want the real stuff, and labelling anyone who condemns it to be oversensitive?

thoughts from all are welcome, but leave the flames and egos at the door. the mods work hard enough as it is. 😉

 

[Terra_Ascension]

Hmmmm....

I'm actually more of a fan of gentle, erotic tickling or carressing rather than hardcore tickle "torture"...and light tickling can be "torturous" to the very ticklish at heart! 😎

If I was with a very ticklish girl I would just gently tickle her for hours, exploring every inch of her body and I would enjoy every second of it! It doesn't have to be torture! 😛

TA

 

[Double T]

I. too, enjoy the light, playfil side of tickling, which is why I enjoy the stories on U.N. Owen and Critterlord so much, and trying to capture that kind of sense of fun in my latest stories. As for the word "Torture" it, like many other words, can be good or bad, depending on the user's intent. Some people like playful tortute, giving and recieving, others prefer hard, not so playful torture, but if both participants are agreeable, I say, let them be. I think the main point of wether tortue, true torture, is being inflicted, is consent. Non-consentual tickling is a total turn off for me, I would never do it, and feel it is moraly wrong. Staged non-consentual also leaves me cold, but since it is staged, there must be some form of consent somewhere. I look on tickling as playful fun, and enjoying seeing it depicted that way.

 

[Todd Tickles]

Phineas Wrote: if you're in the second group, you're either a sicko or a hypocrite; if you want real tickle torture, going by the literal interpretation, you basically want to see someone assaulted. Not Good. on the other hand, if you want "staged" torture, where the victim hates it but agreed to do it anyway, then you don't want *real* torture and shouldn't be bandying about the term that way, as it misrepresents your intentions (IE, you're not a sicko, but you're making people think you are).

I'm confused about this whole thing. Am I really a "sicko" if I want to see a sorority girl held down against her will and tickle tortured for 5 miutes by her sorority sisters? Do you know how many times that's happened? At how many schools? For how many years? Yet to my knowledge, there's never been a complaint against any sorority in the country, about abusive hazing and tickling. I humbly apologize if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's never happened. Many Fathers and mothers hold down and tickle their daugters and sons against their will and make them laugh like mad. It's been going on since caveman days. Sisters hold down and tickle their youger siblings until they are about to cry all the time, in every state of the USA. Ijust dont see anything wrong with it. Because it's not REALLY torture, until it gets to the point of abuse. For example if some sorority girl is held against her will for 6 hours, and tied up by her sorority sisters, and tickled until she is screaming to be let go, and is crying, and is peeing in her pants, and cant beathe etc etc, then yes it's abusive and true torture, and very lame, and very against the law even.

I just don't see where enjoying watching my sister and her friend hold down my girlfriend, and tickle her for a few minutes against her will,while she's laughing hysterically and begging to be let go is so horrible. I feel the word "assult" is far to harsh for moments like these, and find it hard to believe my girlfriend would have much of a case in he court of law; probably because the judge tickle tortured her little sister when they were growing up. n any case, I totally understand where and how tickling can be abusive, and even screw a person up mentally, and could even be grounds for assult, but thats a pretty damn extreme scenario, that I would get no gratification from.

But the ritulistic, tickle torture that's been handed down from playground to playground, from sister to sister, from father to son and daughter, shouldnt be condemed as sick, or wrong. It happens all the time, and will continue to go on forever. I've see people pinned down at weddings and tickled against their will, I've seen it at parks, I've seen it at friends houses, and I saw it growing up all the time. I used to pin my old girlfriend down all the time and tickle her until she went crazy, and when it was all over she would say "God that was torture" and it WAS torture for her, just not the level of torture someone would call "SICK" or "ABUSIVE" It's all a matter of where you and your ticklee draw the line, In my humble OPINION.

 

[TummyDragon]

Here we go...

Hi Phineas,

Excellent thread. I was thinking the very same thing during the ‘torture video’ thread. I’m glad you addressed it although after reading your initial post I must admit that now I feel like I’m even sicker than ever because I fall, on some level, into all three categories.

I guess I’ll start by stating what “tickle torture” means to me. I use the phrase to denote any time I tickle a woman who cannot stop me. This may be by tying, or pinning, but the ticklee is in a position where she’s going through her myriad (no relation of course) of ticklish responses and cannot physically stop it. But even so, at other times, the definition deviates.

I look back on some of the things I wrote in the “torture video” thread and gave them some further thought. I said that when I was a kid, I tickle tortured all the little girls in the neighborhood. I pinned them, against their “will of the moment”, and tickled them. That qualifies as tickle torture to me, but, I have to add that these same girls were active participants. I mean, I can remember holding and tickling one of them, and then not 5 minutes later, that same girl would be straddling someone else tickling the daylights out that person. Or, the same girls at different times, usually one at a time but sometimes as a ‘gang’, would inevitably sneak up behind me and grab on to my sides, and then when I’d turn around and look at the one who just grabbed me, she’d draw her arms in, start laughing, backing away from me, curling herself into this defensive position knowing the evil Tickle Monster Dave was coming after her but still instigating it. So was all of this *really* torture? Well, maybe during the tickling it was something related, because of all the hysteria, screaming, begging for it to stop, etc, but overall I would have to say it wasn’t a technical definition of “torture” because of the active willingness to be in the situation.

The same goes for the girls I dated/tickled in high school. While I did pin and tickle to extremes of laughter and loss of reasonable sanity, each one was still an “active” participant while not necessarily giving me prior permission to do it. There is a difference in body language which is very unambiguous when a person really hates to be tickled. I never tickled anyone who got “pissed off” or had any other adverse reactions to it (and it is VERY easy to tell exactly who those people are, they will let you know) other than the standard ticklish reactions to being tickled. Even those I tickled to an extreme would always come back for more, either poking at me, or knowing I obviously loved to tickle, would always want to be in the very situations that would have the tendency to lead to that ultimate end. So again, torture in the sense of being forced to laugh and scream and beg, but not truly non consensual. Even in relationships in my young adulthood, I would bargain for tickling. I would express how much I loved to tickle and offer anything she wanted to try in return. It always worked. So, she may not have liked being tickled, but always consented to it on at least a basic level.

I related a story in a thread entitled “The Moment” about a young lady at the shoe store. I can remember on more than one occasion her creeping up behind me and gouging into my ribs. I turned around and attacked back exactly as she obviously knew I would. So again, this was tickling without express written permission, but active participation on the part of the ticklee. What I am getting at, is I think that we can ascertain the *willing* or *active* participants through body language and actions without having to actually ask, “Yo there yon ticklish damsel, I dost realize thou hast a personal sphere, might I please insert my wriggling fingers into said sphere and touch thy skin with the goal of watching thou scream, laugh, and beg whilst I controlleth that laughter? I also think that it’s very easy to see by the body language when a person has really had enough. I mean, there is a major difference between hysterically ticklish reactions and “distress”. Even a person who is an “active participant”, as I’ve used the term in this post, will give distinct body language when she’s not in a “playful mood right now”. I think the body language of the ticklee dictates everything we need to know as ticklers and it just isn’t that hard to read.

Now to the darker side I can remember a time when I watched one of the people who truly hated to be tickled get the tickling of her life. I watched her screaming for mercy, begging for it to stop and I did nothing. I was completely fascinated, mesmerized, hypnotized. I know the correct course of action would have been to step in and say “hey,
You there, Tickler, do you not realize your hands are invading her personal sphere? Stop that or be trounced like the swine you are!” But no… I couldn’t move. I was frozen by the hypnotist’s pendulum of wriggling fingers and hysterical laughter. And to make it worse, I loved watching it. So, on some level, I *did* participate in a real tickle torture of one girl because I was there and did nothing to stop it and I liked it. If that were to happen today, even with my hopefully more mature mentality, I still am afraid there is a possibility that I’d be deer frozen in the headlights. And perhaps that is an evil side of my nature, I really don’t know but I figure I’d at least be honest about it.

As far as the “torture” in a tape goes… the commercial stuff is great. I dig watching it. But, if I could finance that project I mentioned in the torture thread, where I could get a woman who is insanely ticklish to give in to her greed and take the money, sign the waivers, all that rot, actually consenting to it (although enduring it might/would really be a torture for her) I’d completely love to see it or even be the one to tickle her. Maybe that’s another dark, evil side, but I must admit, god I would love it.

Rio and I tease each other all the time with sordid tales of insane ticklish “torture”. And those fantasies we play for each other either verbally or written, are extremely extreme and could easily be considered real torture if they were to ever be carried out. It seems the more wild and extreme the fantasies are, the more we get into them. Like a snowball effect, starting out slowly, but as the hormones get flowing, the stories/fantasies become huge, over the top, crossing the edge, outrageous fantasies that seem to proportional to how turned on we are. So our fantasies are definitely controlled by the dark side of the force. I think probably the majority of ticklers/lees have fantasies that are far more extreme than they could/would actually be able/willing to enact. The fantasy figures in our own mind have precisely the reactions we want them to have without ever being physically harmed… there’s no one real to be harmed. Even in our relationship, there are times when Rio just isn’t in the mood to be tickled to another galaxy or even at all, and her body language let’s me know immediately where her limits are.

I’d never harm another human being on the face of the earth without some dire need to protect family, but damn, I have some wild and bizarre fantasies where tickling is concerned. Again, just being honest.

The term “tickle torture” is very ambiguous as it is expressed with different intent of meaning, depending on the situation or the individual. It really means “tickle torture” in our fantasies, but in the real world tends to connote something less, more sensual, more erotic.

Well, that’s it for me, I’m all out of ramblings….

TD

 

[Haltickling]

We're not all talking about the same thing

Seems it all comes down to a definition of the word "torture". Without quoting any encyclopedia, I'd say that torture by itself is always abusive, by the very definition of the word, no matter what kind of torture you inflict.

Obviously the word "torture" is often used in a "tickling" context without meaning real torture. Short periods of nonconsensual tickling (between siblings or sorority members for example) do not match a narrow "torture" definition, as there's no abuse or other criminal act involved. By the way, BDSM people often face the same problem when they "torture" somebody with needles, candlewax or similar. They inflict pain in the same way as we inflict tickling, with no harmful effects if done correctly.

Adversely, tickling and BDSM techniques can be used in real torture, by real sadists or even by government officials in some countries. That's abusive and against laws or Human Rights Convention. And I guess that's what the "2nd category" in Phineas's post means. The intent (or real infliction) of harm on another person.

I tend to define the word "torture" in its narrow meaning, as I had contacts with real victims of torture when I cooperated with amnesty international, so I resent the misuse of this word. It has almost nothing to do with what we ticklefans usually do, except in fantasy stories and video background plots.

Just my 0.02 € ...

 

[starfires]

We hear (and use) the term "tickle torture" all the time on the TMF, but it's obvious not everyone uses this term in the same way; some people use it symbolically, to denote the love-hate relationship they have with being tickled. others use it to verbally taunt these people, again, in a playful way; IE, "I'm going to torture you this weekend".

I don't use the term "tickle torture" very often. When I do, by the "torture" part I mean that the tickling is bothersome to the victim on an immediate emotional level (regardless of whether they like it deep down or have agreed to endure it for other reasons). The term does not apply to me personally very well because I love being tickled and don't want it to stop on any level, unless I am so exhausted that it hurts to laugh.

on the other hand, we have people for whom the "torture" is more important than the "tickle"; for good or ill, the playful nature of most tickle videos is unsatisfying for them and they want something more hardcore.
[...]
if you're in the second group, you're either a sicko or a hypocrite; if you want real tickle torture, going by the literal interpretation, you basically want to see someone assaulted. Not Good. on the other hand, if you want "staged" torture, where the victim hates it but agreed to do it anyway, then you don't want *real* torture and shouldn't be bandying about the term that way, as it misrepresents your intentions (IE, you're not a sicko, but you're making people think you are).

Then is it torture if, for one reason or another, the ticklee gives the tickler a consent of the following form: "I allow you to tie me up and tickle me for X amount of time. I realize that it will be unbearable for me, and that shortly after you start I will change my mind and wish to be released. I authorize you to ignore this wish I anticipate having and proceed with the tickling."?
Would a person craving this type of tickling qualify as a sicko or a hypocrite?

thoughts from all are welcome, but leave the flames and egos at the door. the mods work hard enough as it is. 😉

You appear to have just flamed the people you class under "group two" by calling them sickos or hypocrites. Isn't it hypocritical to tell them to leave their flames at the door?

Originally posted by Todd Tickles[talking about random nonconsensual tickling] Do you know how many times that's happened? At how many schools? For how many years? Yet to my knowledge, there's never been a complaint against any sorority in the country, about abusive hazing and tickling.

"It happens all the time" is not necessarily a good reason to think it's OK. Spousal abuse (the drinking, hitting, screaming, name calling kind) happens all the time, and only a small percentage of victims complain about it. Bullying happens every day, in nearly every school, every year. Slavery happened for a very long time, and people thought it was OK too. Often the victims don't speak up because the society conditions them to believe they don't have a legitimate case: "It's my fault that am a bitch, I deserve to be hit once in a while", "I am so weak and helpless, of course everybody will pick on me", "I am black, it is my destiny to be a slave", "It's my fault that I am so ticklish, they all wouldn't tickle me otherwise".
Also, tickling looks so innocent to the casual observer, it's hard to imagine that the person being tickled could be in serious discomfort. Some don't speak up about the tickle torture they endure because they know everybody will react by saying "It's just tickling, get over it!" or "Well then, don't be so ticklish!".

 

[TummyDragon]

Re: We're not all talking about the same thing

I tend to define the word "torture" in its narrow meaning, as I had contacts with real victims of torture when I cooperated with amnesty international, so I resent the misuse of this word. It has almost nothing to do with what we ticklefans usually do, except in fantasy stories and video background plots.

Just my 0.02 € ...

That's alot to pay! 🙂

You know, after reading your post, I thought about something. When we hear a word or phrase, we create a mental picture in our mind of what those words represent to us. That's the very basis of languag -- sound into image (or writing in the case). Think about this for a minute. If we associate the words with a positive feeling, the picture will be positive, and negative with negative. I agree with you that "torture" is this sense in a misuse of the literal word. But I never really even thought about the phrase "tickle torture" meaning anything nefarious until I met ticklephiles from around the world. I think one thing I've overlooked is that even when we are kids, there is a phrase "tickle torture" that we use that means something else. I can vividly remember a game we played called "Tickle Torture". I remember the threat of "tickle torture" being a fun playful threat as far *back* as I can remember. The words were used with a devious, "i'm gonna getcha" inflection that was innocent and benign, yet carried the weight of a million giggles behind them.

That may sound ridiculous to some that kids would play a game called "Tickle Torture", but the game was a blast, everyone always wanted to play, and kept coming back for more. I can remember those two words *always* having a wonderful feeling associated with them when put together as "tickle torture". We were conditioned by common usage that "tickle torture" meant something fun and playful as opposed to real torture. I mean really, as kids we were not going to break it down and say "wow, this 'torture' word just doesn't belong with this 'tickle' word because torture is evil, we should stop saying it." We just heard the words, associated them to the fun we were having, and got a mental picture of something deviously fun. These experiences color our mental images as adults.

I think perhaps children with negative experiences or no experiences, or maybe never used the phrase as a kid would tend to have a more literal mental image as they grew older of something mean and nasty.
Fun thread anyway.


TD

 

[Dave2112]

I have to go with Hal here, as I was just about to add my own thought on this.

The bottom line here is something that's been touched upon in threads from tickling to television, Star Wars to racism...

...interpretation of language and vernacular.

Generally speaking, the word "torture" is used within the tickling community almost as slang. The phrase "tickle-torture" has just about become as common in usage as "tickling". You don't hear the BDSM community throwing around the phrase "spanking-torture", because it's a different set of phrases.

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Much of a word's meaning lies in the intent of the speaker, and there are way too many interpretations and inflections to narrow the parameters so much.

Just my 2 credits. 😎

 

[BigJim]

Interesting post Phin. I myself am someone who does his level best to make sure that the lee I'm tickling is driven nearly out of her mind by the seriously intense tickle-"torture" I'm capable of handing out. I do have a dom/top/ler/sadistic streak all rolled into one. However I'm also a ler who hasn't tickled someone against their will for more than a few moments, always releases my lee if she gets too uncomfortable or stiff and would be truly upset if someone was reduced to tears by what I was doing. (Other than tears of laughter obviously. I mean seriously crying.)

So yes, I love to see the results of an incredibly torturous tickling on a very ticklish girl, but I'm also a respecter of feelings. I guess I'm half weird then. lol

 

[Phineas]

great work, everybody

you've all posted a lot of good information here, and I'd like to be able to address it all with the attention it deserves. unfortunately, my company is doing *three* project releases this weekend and I probably won't be able to get back to the thread 'till Monday. in the meantime, keep posting. 🙂

 

[Phineas]

well, here I am. let's get started.

..interpretation of language and vernacular.

Generally speaking, the word "torture" is used within the tickling community almost as slang. The phrase "tickle-torture" has just about become as common in usage as "tickling". You don't hear the BDSM community throwing around the phrase "spanking-torture", because it's a different set of phrases.

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Much of a word's meaning lies in the intent of the speaker, and there are way too many interpretations and inflections to narrow the parameters so much.

I guess that's my opening point, really. We throw around the word "torture" so much around here that it's lost its meaning. Then we get the guys who ask us why it isn't okay to "torture" his hired help, and it devolves into screaming.

Then is it torture if, for one reason or another, the ticklee gives the tickler a consent of the following form: "I allow you to tie me up and tickle me for X amount of time. I realize that it will be unbearable for me, and that shortly after you start I will change my mind and wish to be released. I authorize you to ignore this wish I anticipate having and proceed with the tickling."?
Would a person craving this type of tickling qualify as a sicko or a hypocrite?

...neither. I've always been of the opinion that two people can do whatever they like to one another, as long as they both agree on what it is. I don't *personally* approve of some of the weirder stuff tat goes on out there, and my own personal opinion of some of it is that it's sick, but that's not the context I'm using here. Long as the person consents, this discussion has no application.

You appear to have just flamed the people you class under "group two" by calling them sickos or hypocrites. Isn't it hypocritical to tell them to leave their flames at the door?

...not at all. In fact, it's one of the founding points of the original post. Don't use the word "torture" if it's not what you're looking for, because it gives everybody the wrong idea, and if you *are* looking for real, honest-to-goodness torture, then feel free to explain to me why torture should be fully acceptable. I honestly want to hear the reasons why people think non-consensual assault of someone is just fine and dandy.

Bullying happens every day, in nearly every school, every year.

...precisely. such tickling *can* be a form of bullying in my opinion, and while most people shake their heads and say "kids will be kids", that doesn't make it right. If someone tried that exact same behavior in the workplace they'd be sued so fast it'd make their head spin. Why is such trouble behavior overlooked in children when it comes to abusing their peers, regardless of whether it's tickling or poking with a pencil?

Also, tickling looks so innocent to the casual observer, it's hard to imagine that the person being tickled could be in serious discomfort. Some don't speak up about the tickle torture they endure because they know everybody will react by saying "It's just tickling, get over it!" or "Well then, don't be so ticklish!".

this is what I'm talking about. people are all "it's just tickling". and I think we're biased because we happen to like the activity, so it's inconceivable to us that there are those that don't. so you hear things like "it's not so bad", "you know you like it", and other disturbing things. the quote that prompted me to start this thread from the now-yanked "Where is..." discussion was "it's only tickle torture".

"only"... *torture*?

why did the word torture get associated with tickling, anyway? must've been a reason, right? and I doubt it was a ticklephile who made the original distinction.

and now, on to Todd...

I'm confused about this whole thing. Am I really a "sicko" if I want to see a sorority girl held down against her will and tickle tortured for 5 miutes by her sorority sisters?

well Todd, first thing I want to do is mention that this was *not* the impression I gained from your other thread, probably because how you kept going on and on about how there isn't enough *real torture* in videos. Now, if you weren't looking for something as vindictive or sadistic as you described, then it's my fault for reading that into your messages. HOWEVER, that's one of the reasons I spawned this discussion; because of the imagery the word "torture" evokes for so many different people. The reason I labelled what happened to your sister and others as "borderline abuse" is because I seriously doubt that the instigators were just ticklephiles looking for a quick fix... they wanted to push their younger sibling/whoever around and saw tickling as a simple, non-violent, albiet humiliating, way to do it. I especially would label such behavior humiliating when pants-wetting is involved. why else would they do it? they enjoy engaging in pre-pubescent watersports? I doubt that.

Do you know how many times that's happened? At how many schools? For how many years? Yet to my knowledge, there's never been a complaint against any sorority in the country, about abusive hazing and tickling. I humbly apologize if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's never happened. Many Fathers and mothers hold down and tickle their daugters and sons against their will and make them laugh like mad. It's been going on since caveman days. Sisters hold down and tickle their youger siblings until they are about to cry all the time, in every state of the USA.

while I agree that forcible tickling is not on the same level as slavery or domestic abuse, let's ignore the fact that it *is* tickling and boil it down to its essential elements. there is something your (brother/sister/spouse/potential target) hates having done to them. you decide to do it to them anyway, because *you* have decided it's okay to do it.

you don't see a fundamentally *wrong* way of thinking, here? it doesn't matter whether that activity is tickling them or making them sit through a Teletubbies marathon. if they don't like it, don't do it to them.

Because it's not REALLY torture, until it gets to the point of abuse. For example if some sorority girl is held against her will for 6 hours, and tied up by her sorority sisters, and tickled until she is screaming to be let go, and is crying, and is peeing in her pants, and cant beathe etc etc, then yes it's abusive and true torture, and very lame, and very against the law even.

so an activity the victim finds uncomfortable is okay, as long as it's in small doses. explain.

you did, by the way, mention witnessing someone tickled until they peed. that couldn't have been an instantaneous process; would you consider that abuse, even though you originally used it to support your "it's harmless" point of view now?

I just don't see where enjoying watching my sister and her friend hold down my girlfriend, and tickle her for a few minutes against her will,while she's laughing hysterically and begging to be let go is so horrible.

I feel like you're backtracking here, unless I just misread your original missive. In the context of videos, most of us here are used to vendor-produced material that lasts an hour or so. If you're *really* keen on seeing the brief and unscripted stuff, go to the Videos forum; people post links to personal webspaces where there are AVIs of party tickles all the time.

I agree, though, that this is somewhat of a grey area. How long is too long? If the "victim" is screaming, is it a "good" scream or a "bad" scream? Unfortunately, no one can answer this for sure.

It's all a matter of where you and your ticklee draw the line, In my humble OPINION.

...indeed. But it's also a matter of motivations. One would have to squirm pretty hard to justify to me why they feel it's okay to tickle their siblings when that sibling obviously hates it, for any reason other than control.

Personal example. I'm married. I love my wife. Moreso than anything else on God's Green, matter of fact. She's really, really ticklish. She also hates it. Now, I used to tickle her. Not a huge amount, but "enough". Thing is, I know she hates it. And now, the "thrill" is gone. I've realized I'm doing something to my spouse, whom I care for, that she doesn't like. The guilt I felt once I came to that realization has caused me to swear off tickling her anymore; any pleasure I gained out of hearing her laugh is far outweighed by the discomfort I now feel at subjecting her to something she finds unpleasant. Does this mean I'll probably never tickle again? Maybe, but I consider my wife's happiness and comfort more paramount than my own selfish, base "needs" for tickling.

Personal opinion I suppose, nothing more.

thanks for the input, folks... anyone else?

 

[He-Man]

Re: Re: We're not all talking about the same thing

That's alot to pay! 🙂

*doing best impression of the homless guy from "In Living Color" tv series*

Yeah...two cens? Good lawd! Tha's espensive!!

lol😀

 

[Battousai]

Well, I think in certain cases, a person being tortured by something can enjoy it. I shouldn't have to give any examples...I'm sure you can use your imagination, but anyway!

By the way, I don't think its very nice to call group 2 'sicko's', I mean, we must have alot of people who fantasise about 'tickle torture', because we have SO many stories based around such situations. Anyway, thats my thoughts on the matter ^^x Hope I didn't step on anyones toes.

 

[Phineas]

By the way, I don't think its very nice to call group 2 'sicko's', I mean, we must have alot of people who fantasise about 'tickle torture', because we have SO many stories based around such situations.

nobody actually gets touched or harmed in a story or fantasy. it's when people start asking to see the real thing that it becomes an issue. so here's the challenge, again... explain to me why wanting to see an actual person, not a fictional construct, assaulted against their will is not "sick".

 

[BigJim]

Re: Time for me to rant

If it is torture for the person, it's non-consensual. If the ticklee likes it on any level, it's not even in the same ballpark as torture.

Hmmm, interesting because I've tickled 3 willing gals over here totally with their consent. All 3 described my actions literally as "torture". I think we'd all need a common lexicon to be able to agree on this particular point, because one person's literal definition is another's semantics.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

You're doing it to someone, and at first it's fun, for a few seconds or a minute, and then, for the person you're doing it to, it's run its course, and they're asking you to stop, but you're not stopping (because in the back of your mind, you've convinced yourself that this person is enjoying it as much as you do), and pretty soon, your VICTIM is getting either a) pissed off, or b) very nervous, because you now have this glazed look in your eyes, and you're doing it and doing it...but then the glazed look in your eyes disappears, and it's replaced by shock and dismay, because your VICTIM
has just kicked you in the nuts...
Ha ha.

 

[BigJim]

Now that had me on the floor!!!!

 

[Oddjob0226]

Well, I like both the gentle kind and the intense kind. So I'm sick. I'll live with it. If you look at tickling as part of a larger world in the BDSM arena, then there are a lot of sick people out there - and not all of them are about giving. Some get off in their sickness in receiving. I spoke with a guy at a party once who had shot a video where a man had his scrotum nailed to a plank. It hurt like hell, but he consented to it. See, pain & pleasure are, at the core, simply stimulation. And some people are stimulated in different ways, and to different extents, than other. While I would never commit a crime (kidnapping, etc.) , if someone were to consent to being tickled until she was crying for real, and not tears of ticklinsh laughter, or she was willing to let me push her limits, I'd probably go for it. And I'd also be willing to receive it this way. That doesn't mean I'd put the woman's health in jeapordy, or that I have no feelings for her - I mean, I don't play with people I don't like, after all - but I have a sadistic side and as long as that doesn't define me, and as long as I'm a responsible indidvidual, how I play with a willing individual is only an issue between us two. Same with my masochistic side. And I've been involved with a lot of the kinder, gentler tickling, so I'm fairly adept at that, as well.

Besides, humans in general, aside from tickling, have this wierd yet seemingly natural interest in domination or agression, whether it's strangers who enjoy watching- or partaking in - tickling a helpless person in stocks at a renfair or guys who play football, knowing they are going to get pounded. Tattoo artists don't offer you Novicane. Overall, I'm convinced humans a a wierd little species.

 

[Ticklerdes]

Well...

Well BigJim, I see what you mean, and I would guess that your three willing ticklees - you lucky son of a...(lol) wouldn't mean it as "literal" torture. Maybe they were willing, but didn't realize that they wouldn't like it. And if they did like it, I don't see how it can be torture, seeing as by definition, if the victim likes it, it isn't torture.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Something that struck me as I was sawing down treelimbs in my yard today......

Keep in mind that "tickle torture" is also a colloquial phrase. While it has a literal meaning, it also doesn't actually mean in every case "tickling put to someone to achieve real distress to further attain the tickler's desired results". If you tickle someone quickly on the side, they might say you tickled them. If you grab 'em and tickle them a lot and don't let go, more than just a little quickie, they might say they were "tickle tortured". Doesn't mean they were literally taken to a cell and tickled until they revealed their bank account #. Or that they completely hated the experience. It's a turn of a phrase, an idiomatic expression within this culture. Like bats aren't really blind, "Chinese" water torture is actually European in origin, French, that is, "freedom" fries are Belgian at their root and eating pussy doesn't refer to the active consumption of kittens. That's why tickle torture is used so much around here. What are we supposed to say, "tickle mechanations"? I can't even spell it.

Hypocricy? Indeed!

 

[Oddjob0226]

nobody actually gets touched or harmed in a story or fantasy. it's when people start asking to see the real thing that it becomes an issue. so here's the challenge, again... explain to me why wanting to see an actual person, not a fictional construct, assaulted against their will is not "sick".

Sick in an actual clinical definition, like someone with schizophrenia or diabetes is sick, or sick like very very wierd and it makes you uncomfortable to think about? Define the terms and it will be easier to ponder. Is someone sick becuase it's in their natre (i.e., the pathology is natural to them) even though it doesn't seem to be natural to the rest of the world?

And I maintain that humainity has a lot of sickness in it. Not saying it's right, not saying it's just, but some sadistic tendancies seem to be quite natural, and if it is something reapetedly found in nature, then is it "sick"? It may be morally worng in a civilized society, but is it sick?

And what if two people consent to torture each other? I mean, those people who get themselves crucified in the Philipeans every year, I can't say that they are "enjoying" it, but they are consenting to it.

 

[Iggy pop]

We throw around the word "torture" so much around here that it's lost its meaning. Then we get the guys who ask us why it isn't okay to "torture" his hired help, and it devolves into screaming.

People may describe tickling as torture but I do not think they literally mean it is torture. Let's face tickling does not even compare to having electrodes place on your nuts and being hooked up to a car battery. Just because someone described it as torture does not mean that thought it was actually torture. Does this dillute the word's meaning? Maybe, but people do this all the time with numerous words.

I have seen posts from people looking for tickling being used as torture in history, so far I have not seen one shred of evidence that it has been. If you want to coerce someone to talk why use tickling when you can use a far more effective method: PAIN.

it doesn't matter whether that activity is tickling them or making them sit through a Teletubbies marathon. if they don't like it, don't do it to them.
so an activity the victim finds uncomfortable is okay, as long as it's in small doses. explain..

Yes, and the reason why there is limits and it is still in the realm of playfullness. Case in point my girlfriend will sometime punch or playfully kick me. Does it cause some discomfort? Yes.(On a couple times give me bruises) Does it cause some serious pain? No. Somtimes I'll playfully slap her as well. Is this domestic violence? No. Why? Because it is playfull and we are not causing each other serious harm. She is not walking around with sunglasses to hide her black eyes. It is what it is. Playfull antagonism.

 

[Iggy pop]

I'm confused about this whole thing. Am I really a "sicko" if I want to see a sorority girl held down against her will and tickle tortured for 5 miutes by her sorority sisters? Do you know how many times that's happened? At how many schools? For how many years? Yet to my knowledge, there's never been a complaint against any sorority in the country, about abusive hazing and tickling.

Actually I do not think this happens very often. I've been around numerous sororities and sority girls and I have never seen or heard of one case of this happening. I have seen sorority girls tickle each other, but it is usually a very quick tickle with nobody being pinned down and tickled for five minutes.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Well...

Well BigJim, I see what you mean, and I would guess that your three willing ticklees - you lucky son of a...(lol) wouldn't mean it as "literal" torture. Maybe they were willing, but didn't realize that they wouldn't like it. And if they did like it, I don't see how it can be torture, seeing as by definition, if the victim likes it, it isn't torture.

Got positive feedback from the very kind ladies afterwards, so I'm presuming it was enjoyable for hem. I certainly hope it was! One thing that happened all 3 times was some superficial bruising. I am a mean tickler, but I guess I'll have to learn how to be less damaging. Causing bruising on the poor lil' goils makes me feel awful guilty.