ShiningIce
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Patriotism discussion
- Thread starter Dragon321
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kurchatovium
Wielder of 100 Feathers
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You know really I just associate the word patriot with America. I just think of the minutemen, the New England Patriots and stuff like that. It wasn't meant to be some sort of insult to the rest of the world. I hereby apologize to all patriotic foreigners and will now go back to threads about orange marmalade. Which though maybe not as informative seem to be very non-flammable.
Good topic, I think.
To address Hal first.
Nationalism to me is a more "defined" sense of patriotism. Nationalism seems to imply that not only does one have pride and love for their homeland, but that they feel the homeland is better off in a state of isolation. Unfortunately, I think too many of my fellow Americans tend to think in the extremes of Nationalism, a.k.a. the mother of war. I wonder if other countries have this same issue. "We can do it without anyone's help."...or..."We have to take care of the rest of the world before we tend to ourselves." I also tend to think that Nationalism leans toward governmental issues more than it does the human condition of loving one's home. "Our government, right or wrong is always right just because it's ours" kinda thing.
As far as the word PATRIOT, I think that's culturally something Americans think of because it's a hallmark of a time in American's past when the citizens self-tagged with the desire to HAVE a homeland of which to be proud. One can't argue the logic of that I would think. I wonder why the distaste for an American to call oneself a patriot. This might worth another thread, or even an old one, but the topic begs to question given the reply to one person's opinion. The current application of the word in American society falls into things like Kurtch mentioned...like the sports team. Americans using that word does not imply that the citizenry of other countries are not patriots. I'd like to toss in here a comment to Kurtch that I understood your statement to be one coming from a personal application of the word, much in the way that Hal or Red might use it to self-define their views of thier homes. By illustrating your own partiotism, you helped to define the word. You love your home, you're proud of it. I wonder if the word Patriot, pr one of equality, is used regularly in other countries. If not, surely there is a concept or long standing ideology that sits in its place. No? Then what type of symbolic entity takes that role?
Another difference between the two words I think is a simple one. Nationalism is the tunnel-vision of society that prevents the eyes from seeing the worth of another country. (I can feel the argument of the current war coming up - so, I shove it downward in hopes of keeping the conversation on topic) Patriotism, on the other hand, doesn't exclude,in my thought, the patriotism of other nations.
Patiotism is defined by more than the state's legal boundary lines. It's defined by the language, the customs, the laws, the sources of common issue that make up a homeland. It's common sense that the concerns of a patriotic people are going to fall in the lines of a nation. This may be an unfortunate side effect, but never the less it's true. One cannot be more aware of the rights of the warring tribes to the east and west when every member of one's own tribe suffers ill. It's very basic. I belive patriotism to be a by-product of self preservation.
A few telling quotations on the topic:
Ovid - Love of country is more potent than reason itself.
Voltaire - We must love our country, even though it treats us with injustices.
Samuel Johnson - Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Stanilaus Leszcynski - Patriotism is a feeling of welfare and the dread of seeing it disturbed.
Bob Hope - I'll lay an egg for my country if I have to.
H.G.Wells - Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations.
George Santayana - To me, it seems a dreaful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.
George William Curtis - A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
I say I agree with that last quotation. I'll add that common principles are developed via the common ground on which we live our lives, thusly correlating the idea that patriotism is dependent on the borders of our nations. Mind you, there are obvously exceptions, but generally speaking, I'd say it's true. Generally speaking again, I'd say a world with patriotic fervor is more healthy than a world without it.
Joby
Blah...I'm not correcting anymore! Typoglycemia is tough late at night!😛
To address Hal first.
Nationalism to me is a more "defined" sense of patriotism. Nationalism seems to imply that not only does one have pride and love for their homeland, but that they feel the homeland is better off in a state of isolation. Unfortunately, I think too many of my fellow Americans tend to think in the extremes of Nationalism, a.k.a. the mother of war. I wonder if other countries have this same issue. "We can do it without anyone's help."...or..."We have to take care of the rest of the world before we tend to ourselves." I also tend to think that Nationalism leans toward governmental issues more than it does the human condition of loving one's home. "Our government, right or wrong is always right just because it's ours" kinda thing.
As far as the word PATRIOT, I think that's culturally something Americans think of because it's a hallmark of a time in American's past when the citizens self-tagged with the desire to HAVE a homeland of which to be proud. One can't argue the logic of that I would think. I wonder why the distaste for an American to call oneself a patriot. This might worth another thread, or even an old one, but the topic begs to question given the reply to one person's opinion. The current application of the word in American society falls into things like Kurtch mentioned...like the sports team. Americans using that word does not imply that the citizenry of other countries are not patriots. I'd like to toss in here a comment to Kurtch that I understood your statement to be one coming from a personal application of the word, much in the way that Hal or Red might use it to self-define their views of thier homes. By illustrating your own partiotism, you helped to define the word. You love your home, you're proud of it. I wonder if the word Patriot, pr one of equality, is used regularly in other countries. If not, surely there is a concept or long standing ideology that sits in its place. No? Then what type of symbolic entity takes that role?
Another difference between the two words I think is a simple one. Nationalism is the tunnel-vision of society that prevents the eyes from seeing the worth of another country. (I can feel the argument of the current war coming up - so, I shove it downward in hopes of keeping the conversation on topic) Patriotism, on the other hand, doesn't exclude,in my thought, the patriotism of other nations.
Patiotism is defined by more than the state's legal boundary lines. It's defined by the language, the customs, the laws, the sources of common issue that make up a homeland. It's common sense that the concerns of a patriotic people are going to fall in the lines of a nation. This may be an unfortunate side effect, but never the less it's true. One cannot be more aware of the rights of the warring tribes to the east and west when every member of one's own tribe suffers ill. It's very basic. I belive patriotism to be a by-product of self preservation.
A few telling quotations on the topic:
Ovid - Love of country is more potent than reason itself.
Voltaire - We must love our country, even though it treats us with injustices.
Samuel Johnson - Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Stanilaus Leszcynski - Patriotism is a feeling of welfare and the dread of seeing it disturbed.
Bob Hope - I'll lay an egg for my country if I have to.
H.G.Wells - Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations.
George Santayana - To me, it seems a dreaful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.
George William Curtis - A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
I say I agree with that last quotation. I'll add that common principles are developed via the common ground on which we live our lives, thusly correlating the idea that patriotism is dependent on the borders of our nations. Mind you, there are obvously exceptions, but generally speaking, I'd say it's true. Generally speaking again, I'd say a world with patriotic fervor is more healthy than a world without it.
Joby
Blah...I'm not correcting anymore! Typoglycemia is tough late at night!😛
kurchatovium
Wielder of 100 Feathers
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Very well stated Joby. Thanks. Now back to the marmalade.
It seems that the general consensus is that there is in fact an inherent difference between patriotism and nationalism. In my opinion, the difference lies in the idea that patriotism does not have to be specific to one's national or cultural identity. I can see one being described as "patriotic" to any person, place, thing, or idea in which the individual takes great pride and supports and/or believes in fully. Nationalism would seem to be an application of patriotism to national or cultural identity. Both can be healthy, as they convey a sense of belonging and pride, but both can be dangerous as they pose the risk of developing ideas of superiority, bigotry, and ultimately violence.
Haltickling
2nd Level Green Feather
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Of all the definitions offered here, Joby's comes closest to my own. IMO, patriotism is the emotion of an individual towards his home country, whereas nationalism is a political opinion.
A problem with both occurs at the moment where patriotism becomes a political agenda, or even state doctrin. Germans mostly see patriotism as something suspicious, because of historical reasons.
When WW1 broke out, hundreds of thousands of patriots stormed the recruitment offices to join military service. Only about 20% of them returned home alive. Later, an efficient demagogue managed to play on the keyboard of the people's patriotic emotions again, to instrumentalize them for his political aims. That war cost over 40 million lives all over the world. So whenever we see another powerful politician toss around the words patriotism and freedom too much, we Germans feel very suspicious.
Don't think that things like the Nazi reign can never happen in a modern democracy. Just read the book "The Wave", or watch the movie. It's certainly not authentical, but it shows clearly to what extent a large group of people can be manipulated by its leaders...
A problem with both occurs at the moment where patriotism becomes a political agenda, or even state doctrin. Germans mostly see patriotism as something suspicious, because of historical reasons.
When WW1 broke out, hundreds of thousands of patriots stormed the recruitment offices to join military service. Only about 20% of them returned home alive. Later, an efficient demagogue managed to play on the keyboard of the people's patriotic emotions again, to instrumentalize them for his political aims. That war cost over 40 million lives all over the world. So whenever we see another powerful politician toss around the words patriotism and freedom too much, we Germans feel very suspicious.
Don't think that things like the Nazi reign can never happen in a modern democracy. Just read the book "The Wave", or watch the movie. It's certainly not authentical, but it shows clearly to what extent a large group of people can be manipulated by its leaders...
D
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i'm through
to me this stuff isn't a joke. words have meaning, and do indeed cut deeper than a knife.
i get the sad feeling that too many here just say things off the cuff, or with full knowledge that it will cause emotional pain to others. this is a concept that is incomprehensible to me.
so because i take these things seriously, and have stupidly felt that some of you were worth trying to debate, or talk to, my sesibilities have been repeatedly injured. that may, or may not be my own fault. i'll have to decide if trying again, and again is tatamount to self flagulation.
what's the point of this? i'm through.
steve
to me this stuff isn't a joke. words have meaning, and do indeed cut deeper than a knife.
i get the sad feeling that too many here just say things off the cuff, or with full knowledge that it will cause emotional pain to others. this is a concept that is incomprehensible to me.
so because i take these things seriously, and have stupidly felt that some of you were worth trying to debate, or talk to, my sesibilities have been repeatedly injured. that may, or may not be my own fault. i'll have to decide if trying again, and again is tatamount to self flagulation.
what's the point of this? i'm through.
steve
august spies
TMF Master
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