Politicians!

[R. Davis]

Republicans v.s. Democrats! Democrats v.s. Republicans! Corporate and Special interest groups seem to contol our politicians with their money. What about the average hard working American citizen having his or her say on how things get done in this country? I vote at every election and its starting to seem like a wasted effort.

 

[shark]

If you are blue collar or small business you have problems.

 

[Biggles of 266]

Isn't it the people who *don't* vote who cause the problems? I don't understand how less than half the country can be bothered to vote, but they all complain about the government.

 

[JoBelle]

Politics?
Poli (poly) = Many.
Tics = Blood sucking creatures.
Coincidence?
-------------------------------

**Yanking soap box to the center of the room!**

I vote in every election. I'm politically involved in my state and region. I've a VERY loud mouth, in case you haven't noticed here. 😛 I STILL feel it's a waste of energy sometimes. Yet, I refuse to stop being active.

In the end, I think it's just too easy to cop out of holding up your end of the stick by saying, "I have the right to not vote or be involved." Yep....true. And when everyone else becomes as apethetic, the ones who say that, the social moochers, the by-standers, are going to have to do more than bitch. They will have to become resposible beyond saying "I pay my taxes."

This whole concept of people treating democracy (perfect or not) as a spectator sport just really pisses me off.

As is said, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

Joby...wonderin' where the hell THAT came from on this chipper perky Saturday night.

 

[Biggles of 266]

**Yanking soap box to the center of the room!**

I vote in every election. I'm politically involved in my state and region. I've a VERY loud mouth, in case you haven't noticed here. 😛 I STILL feel it's a waste of energy sometimes. Yet, I refuse to stop being active.

In the end, I think it's just too easy to cop out of holding up your end of the stick by saying, "I have the right to not vote or be involved." Yep....true. And when everyone else becomes as apethetic, the ones who say that, the social moochers, the by-standers, are going to have to do more than bitch. They will have to become resposible beyond saying "I pay my taxes."

This whole concept of people treating democracy (perfect or not) as a spectator sport just really pisses me off.

As is said, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

Joby...wonderin' where the hell THAT came from on this chipper perky Saturday night. [/B]

damn straight! Vote or shaddup! Voting is still choosing between the lesser of two evils, but it's better than nothing. Right on Joby!

 

[shark]

You definitely have a point there biggles.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i think it's become cool...

...to say things like "the better of 2 evils", and "they're all the same", etc. the fact is that they are not all the same! and there have been some very good presidents, and runner ups!
i have never missed voting since i came of age. even in the military i sent in my absentee ballots. why is it in countries like the new russia they have voter turn outs of 90-plus%, while we the first democracy in modern times have less than 50%? i'll tell you why, cause too many americans are self absorbed, lazy, and stupid!
when i hear some people talk, i'm glad they don't vote, cause they are too freaking stupid to vote "the right way" anyway!
i's love to start a movment, where you have to carry your voters receipt, and if some one starts bad mouthing the goverment, or policy, ask to see their card, if they don't have it, tell them to shut up and walk away!
steve

 

[Carnes]

May I point you toward

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Some of the news might paint a bleak picture, but that doesn't give us any less power as a people. Vote and speak up! Wartime is the best time to be as vocal and questioning as possible.

 

[jason19tk]

I vote in every election but I can't remember the last time I couldn't have used a gas mask when entering the voting booth.

Are you sure you weren't in the line for the men's room? 😀

 

[shark]

All things considered,we might be better off voting in there.

 

[General Zod]

Playing Devil's Advocate

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here about why some people don't vote Some people feel that either democrats or republicans don't represnt them I'm one of them,but I do vote I'm just a poor working stiff who drives a tractor trailer At one time I only voted republican Nowdays I feel dirty when I vote Also I feel if you wanna be a politician in America I feel you need to serve in the military first (here go the flame wars)I just don't see how or why anybody who has either dodged the draft or just never served can send someone to a war zone Just my opinion

 

[MadKalnod]

May I point you toward

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Some of the news might paint a bleak picture, but that doesn't give us any less power as a people. Vote and speak up! Wartime is the best time to be as vocal and questioning as possible.

Call me skeptical, but just a cursory skimming of their headlines revealed a lot of Anti-Jew, not just Anti-Israeli sentiment. There's a big pull quote about Zionist conspiracies. I smell some freshly starched sheets and hoods in their closets.

 

[Haltickling]

Yep, MK. That site looks like a very lopsided political version of the 'National Informer' to me!

 

[BigJim]

Isn't it the people who *don't* vote who cause the problems? I don't understand how less than half the country can be bothered to vote, but they all complain about the government.

I would'nt actually agree with that one Biggles. I refuse to vote for what seems to me to be a very good reason. The same people own and control ALL the major politicians. The only time I have ever voted was more out of protest than anything else, because it was for the Referendum Party at the 1997 general election.

The way I see it, I do my job and that is my "bit" towards keeping the country a tiny bit safer. Out of my wages, a substantial chunk is deducted for income tax and national insurrance. Even though I don't vote for any of the crooked bastards out of principle, I think that gives me the right to have a moan if the government screw up.

I really appreciate the sort of stuff Joby does. Constantly fighting within politics is the sign of an awake mind and when it stops happening is when everyone gives up all control of their own destiny. My personal "soapbox" is more on the personal level however. I help people individually whenever I can and try to stop them falling into the morass of brain dead "civillisation", where no-one thinks for themselves and lets someone else decide their destiny.

Life in this country would not be different for any one of it's citizens, no matter what political party came into power. Every one of them are controlled and puppeted by the same people and organisations that have been in true power for centuries. Some might say that I'm a hypocrite because in my job, I had to swear an oath of loyalty to the Queen of England. Well, I did. I signed the documents and swore to serve her, but as far as I'm concerned I don't care whethter or not she lives, dies, reigns or abdicates. The Queen is a matter of supreme indifference to me. As far as I'm concerned I do my job and pay my taxes to make the country better for it's citizens. (No I'm not a commie, I was once described as being to the right of Genghis Khan politically speaking. That would still put me to the left of George W. Bush of course 😀 )

 

[JoBelle]

I would'nt actually agree with that one Biggles. I refuse to vote for what seems to me to be a very good reason. The same people own and control ALL the major politicians. The only time I have ever voted was more out of protest than anything else, because it was for the Referendum Party at the 1997 general election.

The way I see it, I do my job and that is my "bit" towards keeping the country a tiny bit safer. Out of my wages, a substantial chunk is deducted for income tax and national insurrance. Even though I don't vote for any of the crooked bastards out of principle, I think that gives me the right to have a moan if the government screw up.

I really appreciate the sort of stuff Joby does. Constantly fighting within politics is the sign of an awake mind and when it stops happening is when everyone gives up all control of their own destiny. My personal "soapbox" is more on the personal level however. I help people individually whenever I can and try to stop them falling into the morass of brain dead "civillisation", where no-one thinks for themselves and lets someone else decide their destiny.

Life in this country would not be different for any one of it's citizens, no matter what political party came into power. Every one of them are controlled and puppeted by the same people and organisations that have been in true power for centuries. Some might say that I'm a hypocrite because in my job, I had to swear an oath of loyalty to the Queen of England. Well, I did. I signed the documents and swore to serve her, but as far as I'm concerned I don't care whethter or not she lives, dies, reigns or abdicates. The Queen is a matter of supreme indifference to me. As far as I'm concerned I do my job and pay my taxes to make the country better for it's citizens. (No I'm not a commie, I was once described as being to the right of Genghis Khan politically speaking. That would still put me to the left of George W. Bush of course 😀 )

AARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Apathy Kills!
If not the process, then the human spirit!
Joby

 

[BigJim]

AARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Apathy Kills!
If not the process, then the human spirit!
Joby

I would'nt say that I was apathetic at all. 😀 I've just come to the conclusion that democracy is a public front and nothing more. Being given the opportunity to put a cross next to a name every five years (or in your case, every four years) makes no difference to how my country is run, hell well the citizens will be rewarded for their efforts, how low the crime rate is, how good the NHS is or anything else. They're all thieving, cheating, masonic handshaking cretins who serve any agenda but the public one. Personally I believe my fight is in letter writing, bitching, whinging and making sure that no dodgy policy is ever left unscrutinised.

This human spirit is alive and well because it's always gonna be fighting for the freedom of the individual human spirit. Just because I refuse to vote for any particular corrupt bastard, doesn't mean I've given up the fight.😀 😛 😉 😎

 

[JoBelle]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one honey. People all over the planet fight for what you blatantly take for granted. The right to voice your opinion. It IS apathy. It's laziness to exercise a basic right that people DIE for everday.

You see, in my eyes, as soon as everyone starts thinking like you, then that leaves the last guy with some sense to make all the decisions. Can you say Dictator?

Joby

"Just following orders, Sir."

 

[BigJim]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one honey. People all over the planet fight for what you blatantly take for granted. The right to voice your opinion. It IS apathy. It's laziness to exercise a basic right that people DIE for everday.

You see, in my eyes, as soon as everyone starts thinking like you, then that leaves the last guy with some sense to make all the decisions. Can you say Dictator?

Joby

"Just following orders, Sir."

I agree totally with you about apathy spelling the death of the free soul Jo. I just disagree that voting makes any difference to our lives. The conclusion that I've conme to is that our democracies are staged circuses, designed to make us believe we have the power to affect our own country's political destiny. I'm not saying voting is a bad thing, and I'm certainly not decrying those who do vote. I just believe it has no notable effect on our destiny as a free people and free individual souls. I will fight to my last breath against anything and anyone I see as unjust, with any tools I have at my disposal. What you see in my attitude towards democracy isn't apathy, it's cynicism. Apathy would mean I didn't care less about my freedom. Cynicism with the system just means I seek alternate ways to express my freedom. I don't know enough about the political climate in the US, but what we have in the UK is essentially an elected dictatorship. Tony Blergh doesn't give a shit about the people of this country. All he cares about is railroading us into the glorious sunlit uplands of the unified Europe with a single currency, a single bank, a single police force and a single voice. (Sounds horribly like Hitler's vision doesn't it? "Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer!!!!") If and when the referendum comes up on the single currency issue, then I WILL MOST DEFINATLEY be voting. I would'nt be voting for a face then, who'd been bought beforehand and would introduce the same poilcies as his opponent under a different name. I'd be voting for a policy and an ideal, and I care about that desperatley.
Till such a vote comes up, I will continue to make my voice heard in public debates, private debates, letters to local councillors and my MP. As Bill Pullman said in "Independance Day", I will not go quietly into the night! And I'll sure as hell not go without a fight.

 

[Carnes]

Call me skeptical, but just a cursory skimming of their headlines revealed a lot of Anti-Jew, not just Anti-Israeli sentiment. There's a big pull quote about Zionist conspiracies. I smell some freshly starched sheets and hoods in their closets.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. There have been several articles listed there about Jews in Israel who have questioned Sharon's decisions lately. There are also some very interesting arguments about Israel's actions that I think must be taken into consideration before we start yelling "Anti-Semite" all over the place, which is exactly what the government seems to do to anyone who questions the decisions of Sharon. Even the leader of a Jewish nation can be involved in cruel things. I think the webmaster is trying to show stories that you'll never hear in the news on television, and I suppose that is why he sounds "Anti-Jew." I mean, we hear so much about Palestinian suicide bombings and how terrible they are on the networks, but do we ever hear about why they're happening? Israel's forces are guilty of some awful things too.

Also keep in mind that the webmaster isn't exactly condemning Jews everywhere. He's trying to shed light on topics that all other news sites and channels are either spiking or toning down. Why was Fox News's story about the Israeli spy ring spiked just days after it was originally published? That's a big deal! What about the comment about Israel's possible link to 9/11 being classified? Shouldn't the public, whom terrorist attacks directly effect, be aware of all aspects of the situation? Whether it's pleasant or not, I believe we have a right to hear about it.

 

[BigJim]

I have to agree with Carnes on something here. I don't have enough information about the particular thing he is talking about to comment, but I think the tag "anti-semite" is overused as the ultimate slur weapon these days.

Let's face it. Hitler is the most evil guy in recorded history. He had to be a political genius to persuade the nation to believe the garbage he was spouting, but he was also totally off his rocker. (English slang meaning he was frikkin insane!) Now Hitler's most remembered crime is the Holocaust; the most despicable and heinous crime ever commited on a group of people because of their creed in human history. To be called an anti-semite is to be assosciated with the biggest villain the race has ever known and if addressed to anyone in public, such a slur will almost certainly send the attackers of Israeli opinion running for cover in terror. Much the same thing used to take place when the UK threatened to stop overseas aid to certain countries in Africa, because they were blatently being manipulated by the USSR and we knew where the funds would truly end up. In the pockets of messrs. Kalashnikov & co. The leaders of these countries (in truth soviet puppets) would instantly accuse us of "blatant racism" and that dreaded accusation would instantly send any opposition from the government running for cover, leaving a trail of pound notes behind for easy disposal.

To be honest I think that certain factions in Israel try to play the same card. When someone in the west trys to say they're wrong they get accused of being an anti-semite and instantly go running for the hills lest they be attacked and ripped to shreds by a crowd of howling liberals. (Not meaning to offend the true liberals on this forum who aren't fooled by this hogwash.) The middle east situation has seen fault and terror on both sides and I don't see it ending any time soon.🙁

 

[Frink]

Interesting points, BigJim.

I took an International Affairs class awhile back in undergrad about the media and politics. I remember the professor making a clear, memorable point about how complex conflicts like these are usually cast in this country.

There's always a hero, a villan, and a victim. Once the media and, hence, public opinion "locks" groups into those categories, it becomes incredibly difficult for many to interpret things any differently. The hero does no wrong. The victim is hurt by the villan...never the reverse (and never by the hero). The villan does only "evil" and/or is only motivated by "evil" purposes; they are the source and/or cause of the problem.

Sounds nice and simple doesn't it? 🙄

 

[MadKalnod]

I'm not going to debate what Israel has or hasn't done, as there was another interminable thread about that (which got locked, IIRC) some months back. What I will say in the context of my original post is this: If the site reported correctly about unethical behavior by Israel, well then, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I still think it has too much of an ideological axe to grind for me to trust it at face value. Allegations of Anti-Semitism aside, anybody who not only seriously considers but creates a website to spread the notion that the entire September 11th Massacre and subsequent war against Islamist Terror is all nothing more than a clever ploy, stage-managed by Israel to turn America into a totalitarian police state for the benefit of George W. Bush's alleged "Big Oil Cronies", clearly hasn't been taking their Lithium regularly.

 

[Carnes]

Well, if you believe the official stories you're being told, that's fine. But I believe that there should be better explanations for why the World Trade Center towers collapsed the way they did (it looked like a controlled demolition to me), why seven of the alleged "hijackers" are still alive, why Donald Rumsfeld hasn't resigned after his unbelievable blunder in Afghanistan ("Well, uh, we really don't have any evidence linking Afghanistan with 9/11, but we bombed the hell out of it anyway"), why we're about to invade Iraq and see the deaths of thousands of innocent people for no good reason (honestly, what's Saddam done lately to warrant this?), and why President Bush has named no less than sixty different nations to be targeted before this sham of a war is over. Why is this all happening? Why are we being lied to and told not to question when so many crazy things are going on? If people didn't make these websites (and there are many more than this one), how would we be able to see the shape of the world from a more distant view, where we can discern and make our own assumptions without the cloying presence of propaganda terms like "axis of evil?"

 

[JoBelle]

I'm not a mod, so don't think I'm trying ot be one here...just a friendly reminder that this thread was about politicians and voting...not a conspiracy theory behind the World Trace Center attacks.

Jim, I think my basic disagreeement with you is that you view your act of voting as a simple check on a page that has no effect on the outcome of events. I, on the other hand, view voting as a basic right to be exercised. I fear that should the majority of people in a democratic society, whether it be perfect or not, begin to sit back and watch the machine at work....then the machine begins to control the masses. The thought process that to be active as a WHOLE unit of people, not just as an individual, is my goal. Voting is one of the only ways most people have ANY contact with the "powers that be" and thus giving that right up by lack of application becomes tantamount to saying "control me how you will."

Nonetheless, I also believe in the basic tenant that if you don't help choose, then you really have no right to complain. That's like sitting back on your behind watching someone put a meal togther then bitching beacuse you don't like what was cooked. Sure, you helped buy the gorceries, but what did you do to mold the outcome? It's not fair, or decent to insult the chef, ya see?

I just don't understand. Voting isn't difficult. It's a very easy thing to do. Maybe your views aren't fully represented, but if you choose to abstain, you're getting the same effect anyway. *shrug* Why not choose to be a part of the process? That is where the passion lies. Ignoring it is doing nothing but guaranteeing that it never changes. I know, it won't make a difference. You're right...as long as people sit on their duffs saying it won't...then it won't.

It's like a muscles that isn't used, eventually it loses all power and the moment you feel you want to use it....it's gone or too weak to even make it's presense known.

Joby...who realizes this is indeed one of her biggest soapbox issues.

 

[BigJim]

I'm not a mod, so don't think I'm trying ot be one here...just a friendly reminder that this thread was about politicians and voting...not a conspiracy theory behind the World Trace Center attacks.

Jim, I think my basic disagreeement with you is that you view your act of voting as a simple check on a page that has no effect on the outcome of events. I, on the other hand, view voting as a basic right to be exercised. I fear that should the majority of people in a democratic society, whether it be perfect or not, begin to sit back and watch the machine at work....then the machine begins to control the masses. The thought process that to be active as a WHOLE unit of people, not just as an individual, is my goal. Voting is one of the only ways most people have ANY contact with the "powers that be" and thus giving that right up by lack of application becomes tantamount to saying "control me how you will."

Nonetheless, I also believe in the basic tenant that if you don't help choose, then you really have no right to complain. That's like sitting back on your behind watching someone put a meal togther then bitching beacuse you don't like what was cooked. Sure, you helped buy the gorceries, but what did you do to mold the outcome? It's not fair, or decent to insult the chef, ya see?

I just don't understand. Voting isn't difficult. It's a very easy thing to do. Maybe your views aren't fully represented, but if you choose to abstain, you're getting the same effect anyway. *shrug* Why not choose to be a part of the process? That is where the passion lies. Ignoring it is doing nothing but guaranteeing that it never changes. I know, it won't make a difference. You're right...as long as people sit on their duffs saying it won't...then it won't.

It's like a muscles that isn't used, eventually it loses all power and the moment you feel you want to use it....it's gone or too weak to even make it's presense known.

Joby...who realizes this is indeed one of her biggest soapbox issues.

Point taken Jo and accepted Jo. 😀 My point of disagreement is that the machine ALREADY controls and manipulates us. If 100% of registered voters made sure they went to the ballot boxes at every ellection in their country, it would still make no difference to the amount of control the machine had, or the amount of freedom the people had. I also strongly disagree on that point about about not having the right to complain if they screw up with my tax pounds. If I happily give my tax and NI to the government and have made it clear through whatever medium how I'd like to see them spent and what improvements in public spending etc I'd like to see, I believe I have EVERY right to be upset when they buy rolls of wallpaper worth £17,000 for their London offices with it instead. Similarly if I paid a resteraunt X-amount of pounds and asked for a certain type of dinner, I'd be pissed as hell if they gave me pigswill. Again I'd believe I had every right to complain, even if I did'nt help the chef cook the meal.

I'm not apathetic. I just vote selectivley, and I refuse to vote in a rigged game. When something comes up that I believe affects me and my fellow citizens then I act in as vocal and effective as way as possible. When it comes to the Euro referendum, I will undoubtedly be voting against it.

I suppose our differing views come from that the fact that you believe our democracies are genuine and I believe they are charades, designed to lull us into believing the elite give a shit about what we think.