Poll for potential future art contest

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yeah, I have seen how fun these things are on deviantart, and I was thinking maybe we could do something like that here amongst our resident artists.

What we'd do is agree on a theme, set a date, and then anyone who wants to submit an entry has until that time. We then could have a poll or set up a panel of judges.

We could also discuss what we'd do about prizes and such if we wanted to also do that.

Now, I know some of you may not be comfortable with the idea for one reason or another (possibly several, so I made this a poll that you can vote either way on) but I think it can be a fun activity for everyone if we do it right and don't make it too competitive. This would also be a good way for our artists to hone their skills and gain additional experience within a timeframe, thus providing a good challenge and learning experience.

If we decide on a panel of judges then I would rather be one than a contestant, since I think I'm able to call a picture down the line and because I don't have any bias (for or against) any particular artist. If we decide on a poll, then maybe I'll do it. It depends on who signs up. Maybe we could also have a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place so that theres more than one winner.

 

[the_jimmy_james]

Look over there.

Made you look.

I think you should put your art in. I'll be a judge in your stead.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I want to see who else would participate first. I wouldn't suggest this contest to people who are beginners, as it may be too much for them. Umojar, Nessonite, and Anime316 would make good contestants, as would several others. Though, they are three of the obvious choices, anyone who feels confident or just wants to have some fun should participate. 🙂

 

[the_jimmy_james]

Aye

I can see your point there. Personally, I think it'd be cool, though, to have everybody in on it. I don't mean "everybody has to"... just anybody is free to join... as long as they know they're up against whoever joins. They'd just have to understand that if they end up against someone like yourself, Snail, or Umojar, that, well... that's how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

They'd just have to understand that if they end up against someone like yourself, Snail, or Umojar, that, well... that's how the cookie crumbles.

This is what concerns me the most.

I don't want this to turn into an exclusive contest between our best. That leaves out other artists and ones who may want and do deserve to belong.

Maybe the people we've mention shouldn't participate either. If you think it through to conclusion the results are obvious when you stack our most advanced against our intermediates and beginners. The beginners and intermediates are almost guaranteed to lose or not get a top 3 position.

Maybe this contest should be exclusively for our intermediates and beginners and we can have a seperate contest for our advanced artists (or one for each skill level). This should make things more fair for everyone and make the contests more balanced.

I don't like the idea of having to divide our artists by class and ability, but it may be the only way to make this reasonable and the outcomes not obvious.

 

[Violetta]

Either way it goes, I'll likely enter just for fun. The only problem I can see with dividing it into classes like advanced and beginner, is that there's no criteria for which category someone is placed in. Some people who may be good enough for intermediate or advance might not think they're that good and place themselves in a lower category and end up being a ringer. But I also can't see an easy way to possibly vote on the skill level of each participant.

Personally, I'm just gonna enter for fun and practice, and to participate and see what all others come up with. But, some art gonna play to win and be disappointed if they don't. I'd much rather see everyone approach this contest as a chance to simply flex their skills and have fun, but I'm concerned that that's not going to be the case with everyone. I think it's an awesome idea, though. We just gotta make sure it's not discouraging to the less experienced artists.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

How can we make this not discouraging for the less experienced artists? I'd like to hear people's ideas on this.

As far as voting though, if we're having people vote for their favorite, then the winner is determined by votes, which puts their actual skill (whether its above or below others) aside. The problem with this though is the element of personal bias. A friend is more likely to vote for a friend, and theres always people who will vote for someone whom they like or someone they may feel sorry for (a pity vote, possibly the worst kind of vote).

This is why I suggested judges as an option and why I would place myself as one of them. Because I have no sense of loyalty to any one person my opinion remains unbias, and because of my art skills, critiquing ability, and my thorough understanding of art, I think that, with maybe two other judges, it will be a very fair call.

The winner would win because of technical ability in this case, not because of any other factors, like how popular they are, or whatever.

 

[Violetta]

When I mentioned voting, I wasn't talking about voting for the winner of the contest. I meant voting to place artists as "beginner" "intermediate" and "advanced," and how we'd figure out who belongs in what category. I think doing that might be a step in making it less discouraging for less experienced artists, but it might complicate things. I agree with the idea of a few judges who'll look at each of the entries, rather than a group vote for winner. And if those same judges objectively placed each of the artists in respective categories, then that would greatly streamline things.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I knew you meant voting on who gets placed where, but thats faulty too, since a person may or may not agree with where they are placed. I don't think that should be anyone's decision but the artist's. Only they truely know what they are and are not capable of. I think its just easier for the artist to decide what bracket they want to be placed in and then participate in the contest for that bracket. This is good, as it means they're responsible for their choice and have to decide whether the other contestants are a good match for them or not.

Most people have a feeling for what bracket they would belong in, and if they have any doubts then maybe they should wait until they see who enters what. In a way, this a matter of strategy as well. Scouting who you're going to be drawing alongside and then determining whether you think you can compete with that or not. If you don't think you can, then you enter a lower bracket. If you think you can, then choose that one. If you're not sure but you just want to have fun, then you can take the gamble and try out that bracket anyways.

Provided this contest is successful and people enjoyed it, theres no reason why more can't be held after that. The more we have of these things the more well adjusted everyone involved will be. And with the experience people will gain from it, they may very well win when they didn't before.

 

[Umojar]

Well, all I can think of is you can set the contest up in a way so that technique isn't the only thing being judged. Most of the time that's the only thing that people consider when they think one artist is better than the other. If you give other criteria that it'll be judged by(I don't know what), then maybe it'll encourage people not to worry about who's entering as much. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than me...)

Anyhow, I'd rather be a judge as well. I don't have any bias either.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Well, all I can think of is you can set the contest up in a way so that technique isn't the only thing being judged. Most of the time that's the only thing that people consider when they think one artist is better than the other. If you give other criteria that it'll be judged by(I don't know what), then maybe it'll encourage people not to worry about who's entering as much. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than me...)

Anyhow, I'd rather be a judge as well. I don't have any bias either.

Technical ability is always the first thing people consider in contests, competitions, and everything else because its the only sure tangible thing that can be judged. Provided everyone has 20/20 vision, and they have no eye defects then everyone is seeing exactly the same thing. It is this fact that represents a consensus.

While it is true there are many facets to art and many reasons for what make a piece special, and the numbers are multiplied by the artist's individual flare, there are perhaps too many to choose from and choosing any specific ones is a bias too.

The reason judging technical ability (linework, color coordination, understanding of anatomy, perspective, proportions, etc) is the mainstay of artistic review is because its the most tangible thing we have to work with visually. The rest we have to feel or imagine, but its not something suited for a contest unless everyone feels the same way. With technical ability your eyes do not decieve you and everyone is seeing the exact same thing and cannot deny it.

While it would be ideal to give many ways a person could win this thing, and that would allow people to play to their own strengths, it would be too convoluted. In order to make that work you'd have to already know what each artist is good at and then break that group of people down even further. This gets tedious and even rude to insinuate that "this is what you're good at, so you're here to give you an advantage". Thats like an unspoken handicap and I'm not sure thats entirely fair either.

This isn't a game of rock, paper, scissors. Whomever wins for each bracket should win because they have displayed that they are well-rounded as an artist and were able to cover their weaknesses while exploiting their strengthsand that they did this better than the other contestants. Thats fair, ideal, and if somebody wins because of it, its no wonder.

 

[juggernaut]

The overall idea here could be interesting, but you've got almost a dozen posts with potential problems already and no one has even put a pencil to paper yet.

My first thought is don't make it a contest with a "winner". Just because a certain song gets voted number one on the radio's "Top 8 at 8pm" doesn't make it the best song, it makes it the one with the most votes from about 50 people.

The majority here draw very basically. A few have a grip. And a few know what they're doing. I agree with some of the posts above about style. My two cents is to come up with a topic and have everyone who wants to participate do their interpretation of it and the thread is enjoyed as a showcase of different thought processes, styles, and techniques. Dividing people into skill level classes is a bad idea. And there would probably be alot of people who would think "There's no way I could beat Umojar [for example] or win if Nessie's involved [for example], so I just won't even bother" and they'd do nothing at all.

To be perfectly honest, I think everyone who's interested in drawing at all is already contributing here, so I doubt this'll turn over a rock and discover a bunch of new artists. But I say leave it open to everyone, put a topic out there, and just see how everyone addresses it differently.

To have a contest and winner, I'd think it's more appropriate to narrow it down and say "We're having an anime-style contest" where everyone would be shooting for the same goal and judging would be less subjective and based completely on the boundaries set by professional anime art.

I have spoken. I am wise. Do it my way.

 

[Snail Shell]

To answer the spirit of the thread, which as I understand it is who else is interested, I will not be participating in such a contest. That's not why I draw.

Sorry.

Snail Shell

 

[tickle_fan031]

I'm sorry but didn't you start a huge debate when I mentioned an Awards Ceremony type thing??Where we gonna have different categories and choose winners for a laugh.Ok fair doos this is an art contest-different scenario but same principle coz at the end of it someone will singled out as being "the best"which could hurt other artists' feelings etc etc.Seems a tad unfair to me seeing as you kicked up such a big fuss over it and then come out with something like this.

 

[Snail Shell]

I'm sorry but didn't you start a huge debate when I mentioned an Awards Ceremony type thing??Where we gonna have different categories and choose winners for a laugh.Ok fair doos this is an art contest-different scenario but same principle coz at the end of it someone will singled out as being "the best"which could hurt other artists' feelings etc etc.Seems a tad unfair to me seeing as you kicked up such a big fuss over it and then come out with something like this.

Counted. 😉

Snail Shell

 

[TKLVR181]

I'm sorry but didn't you start a huge debate when I mentioned an Awards Ceremony type thing??Where we gonna have different categories and choose winners for a laugh.Ok fair doos this is an art contest-different scenario but same principle coz at the end of it someone will singled out as being "the best"which could hurt other artists' feelings etc etc.Seems a tad unfair to me seeing as you kicked up such a big fuss over it and then come out with something like this.

Ye, agreed----plus it would just turn into a popularity contest.

Not to mention that I could think of a few artists here that are very good, but who haven't posted enough to be really confident in their work---is this what they need?????

 

[Budweiserbob!]

I like the idea Vlad! 😀
It'll be fun! 🙂

Plus it could be the chance for all those "I'm not sure my art is that good" kinda people to build their confidence. You never know, we could have a few more TT Artist legends out there like you, Ness, Cheshire, Chimp, Anime3:16 etc. (not saying that it had to be tickle related in any way, but could be an idea). 😛

So yea, I'll back you up 100% of the way on that! 😀

Edit: True, this contest does have a few ups and downs, especially due to the competitive aspects to it, but I recon that with good supervision and people having good sportsmanship, it has the potential to work. 🙂

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

The overall idea here could be interesting, but you've got almost a dozen posts with potential problems already and no one has even put a pencil to paper yet.

My first thought is don't make it a contest with a "winner". Just because a certain song gets voted number one on the radio's "Top 8 at 8pm" doesn't make it the best song, it makes it the one with the most votes from about 50 people.

The majority here draw very basically. A few have a grip. And a few know what they're doing. I agree with some of the posts above about style. My two cents is to come up with a topic and have everyone who wants to participate do their interpretation of it and the thread is enjoyed as a showcase of different thought processes, styles, and techniques. Dividing people into skill level classes is a bad idea. And there would probably be alot of people who would think "There's no way I could beat Umojar [for example] or win if Nessie's involved [for example], so I just won't even bother" and they'd do nothing at all.

To be perfectly honest, I think everyone who's interested in drawing at all is already contributing here, so I doubt this'll turn over a rock and discover a bunch of new artists. But I say leave it open to everyone, put a topic out there, and just see how everyone addresses it differently.

To have a contest and winner, I'd think it's more appropriate to narrow it down and say "We're having an anime-style contest" where everyone would be shooting for the same goal and judging would be less subjective and based completely on the boundaries set by professional anime art.

I have spoken. I am wise. Do it my way.

I know. Its why I didn't even mention you. You'd mop the floor with all of us, probably using the hand you don't write or draw with, while the hand you do use is tied behind your back.

Also, we would be narrowing this down. We haven't even discussed the subject matter yet and what people would be required to draw. In this case, I don't think we should go with anime, since thats what everyone does. This contest would allow everyone to try something different and see how well they can handle it and then showcase that with others.

Do you have any other suggestions? I made this a poll for reason.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'm sorry but didn't you start a huge debate when I mentioned an Awards Ceremony type thing??Where we gonna have different categories and choose winners for a laugh.Ok fair doos this is an art contest-different scenario but same principle coz at the end of it someone will singled out as being "the best"which could hurt other artists' feelings etc etc.Seems a tad unfair to me seeing as you kicked up such a big fuss over it and then come out with something like this.

You said it yourself- this is an art contest. To compare it to what you wanted to do isn't quite right and is whats not fair here.

An art contest is an art contest. It doesn't apologize for what it is. It is what it is and they're normal things to do when you have people with a similar ability. We have people here with a similar ability and you want to have some fun. Unlike what you wanted to do, the person doesn't risk being judged personally for how they are or how they act, but here their work will be evaluated. With what you wanted to do, so much of it revolved around evaluating a person's character and imposing and affixing an assumed trait, ability, quirk, or personality upon them and doing such things are interpersonal whereas a contest is just a contest. Theres nothing implied, outside of the results, that says anything about the person.

When you undestand this I'm sure you understand why your idea didn't work.

If this contest or whatever we want to label it doesn't work either, its not going to be because there was something inherently wrong with it, but because it was too complicated, we couldn't agree on a theme, and/or because not enough people wanted to do it.

Note that I made this a poll. You on the other hand just started assuming to do what you wanted and thought that people would just go along with it (again, usually, the same circle of friends that also spam). I have made no such assumption. That there is another big difference in how this situation is different from yours. With respect.

If this doesn't work out I'm not going to whine or complain over it. And I'm certainly not going to throw it back in somebody's face later if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I like the idea Vlad! 😀
It'll be fun! 🙂

Plus it could be the chance for all those "I'm not sure my art is that good" kinda people to build their confidence. You never know, we could have a few more TT Artist legends out there like you, Ness, Cheshire, Chimp, Anime3:16 etc. (not saying that it had to be tickle related in any way, but could be an idea). 😛

So yea, I'll back you up 100% of the way on that! 😀

Edit: True, this contest does have a few ups and downs, especially due to the competitive aspects to it, but I recon that with good supervision and people having good sportsmanship, it has the potential to work. 🙂

It should be fun. But some people seem like they may be so self-conscious that we're going to have to white-wash this thing and tip-toe around it, and thats just wasting time and making this more difficult than it has to be.

Yes, exactly. Those who are not confident in their abilities stand to gain alot from just participating alone. I don't see why more people aren'ts seeing the upside to this. Plus, noone has to do it if they don't want to, nor am I implying this is the only way for them to get noticed, improve, or whatever.

Finally, you make the best point of all: good sportsmanship.

It is the ideal I based this idea on, and if I felt that this couldn't be accomplished with the persons we have to work with I wouldn't have proposed it. I have faith it can worth exactly as presented or with little tinkering necessary.

 

[Budweiserbob!]

If this doesn't work out I'm not going to whine or complain over it.

Exactly.

It's worth a shot really. It hasn't been done before here so it could be a good experience. And if it turns out to be a complete and utter failure, oh well, we gave it a shot! No harm done. XD

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Exactly.

It's worth a shot really. It hasn't been done before here so it could be a good experience. And if it turns out to be a complete and utter failure, oh well, we gave it a shot! No harm done. XD

Yes. Personally, if this was just about me and fulfilling my/a desire for open competition I would have gone to deviantart or some other art site where people aren't hung up on these types of things and are well accustomed to them. Rather, I've opted to attempt to present an event with as little emphasis on competition as possible.

I understand the opposition to this though. I really do. In putting myself in their position I can understand how this puts pressure on folks, but then thats why you don't have to do it. Plus, if you're putting your insecurities before the fun factor, then you've sabotaged this whole effort for yourself (potentially for others as well) regardless of how good an idea it was or not. You're not going to be able to have any fun with this if you're worrying about things too much, namely whether you're good enough. Its not about whose good enough. If you're going in with that mindset then you're not going to enjoy yourself.

 

[the_jimmy_james]

I say go for it, with the understanding that it's all for fun.

No prizes, none of that. All factors must be considered in an image, all factors equally, not just technical mastery.

I'm a musician and I see plenty of book-learned virtuosos that play boring, uninspired crap. Technical mastery does not quality make 😉

 

[juggernaut]

I know. Its why I didn't even mention you. You'd mop the floor with all of us, probably using the hand you don't write or draw with, while the hand you do use is tied behind your back.

Also, we would be narrowing this down. We haven't even discussed the subject matter yet and what people would be required to draw. In this case, I don't think we should go with anime, since thats what everyone does. This contest would allow everyone to try something different and see how well they can handle it and then showcase that with others.

Do you have any other suggestions? I made this a poll for reason.

Well there's a vote of confidence. Thanks!

Nope. I like the idea of seeing different approaches to the same scenario. I think the word "contest" got people bunched up from the beginning and now everyone is overthinking it. I only used anime as an example of where it'd be okay to judge. Knowing that it's style has large eyes, unique highlights in hair, etc... things you can always look for... it makes it okay to say [for example] "Vlad really nailed the anime style on this one. It looks pro. Line weight is good and the coloring is consistent." But you can't compare the art of Masters of the Universe to Beavis and Butthead or everyone will say B&B loses because it sucks by comparison. It looks scribbled. Southpark blows them away with ratings and merchandising and it looks like Helen Keller draws for them. So what's better?

If you want a level playing field, do something simple that won't exclude people not into anime, cat people, role playing, etc. And make them generic characters so you don't have to try to mimic the style of the Family Guy or some other recognizable cartoon. Otherwise people just be copying stuff. Throw out a scenario, number of characters, specify a gender, an area being worked over, etc and let them run.

I also think it'd be interesting for people to do a line drawing and let someone else color it. Someone can take the submissions and distribute them and see what comes back. At one of my past companies, we used to take 15 minutes and do a floor plan for a trade show. Then we'd take our floor plan and pass it to the person two chairs down to the left and they would draw a perspective drawing based on what they thought our floor plan was showing. We got some nice stuff out of it. Again, just a thought, but it opens your mind to a new look at your stuff. If you put 100 drawings from the forum down in front of me, I could tell you who did them. People draw inside boxes for the most part and experiment very little. There are a few exceptions here and you know who you are. But I'd like to see Vlad color an Umojar and Ness color a Snail Shell or Kalamos color a Cheshire, etc. It's all in fun, so don't reply about artistic integrity.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I say go for it, with the understanding that it's all for fun.

No prizes, none of that. All factors must be considered in an image, all factors equally, not just technical mastery.

I'm a musician and I see plenty of book-learned virtuosos that play boring, uninspired crap. Technical mastery does not quality make 😉

Unfortunately, I have to again disagree with that. It is because of technical ability that people come up with an opinion in the first place. Your eyes either like what they see or they don't, and thats based off of the artist's ability to interprete, recreate, or visualize matter as you expected or hoped it would be, or, alternatively, in a manner which is pleasing to the eye. It is not ironic that technical ability is so important and actually very fair, perhaps the fairest form of review possible because it takes into account so many things that matter artistically, things that are real and things that are legitimate and important.

Style does not precede ability, as important as it is to an individual.

Use your being a musician (I was also one) as an example. You have to learn the notes, the chords, the keys (or whatever your case is) and how to handle the instrument in order for you to use the instrument.

Then, and only then can you begin to create your own style or way of playing; omitting notes or creating new ones, playing at specific speeds and knowing when to go into lulls and crescendos. If you were to have your ability taken away from you, your style would go with it, as it is dependant on your knowledge.

Likewise, this is about art, something you create with your hands, just like music. So it only fair if people are being evaluated by the one thing they must have in common- technical ability. If you wish to consider style and such, then judges must deliberate how that figures into it versus another entry. I don't think we have the willpower to choose one over the other because of style. Technical ability makes this process easier and with less emotions and hurt feelings involved.

This is why I support the judge panel system. Leaving it up to votes is going to produce predictable results.

I know this all sounds heavy-handed, but consider that all I've said is what a potential judge would have to consider and think about anyway. Consider what I've said as 'thinking out loud'. Its not something judges are actually going to have to say or speak about with you guys. The methodical way they reach a conclusion is through this kind of deliberation amongst themselves and the other judges. Its how whats fair is determined.

If you keep things in their place and keep them from interfering with anything else, then this idea is still very simple in nature and non-confrontational. It is the judges who are going to have a hard decision to make, not anyone else (but then again thats why they're there, to make a decision so you don't have to and if you disagree with them its fine they're there to take your flak, criticism and kudos). But most of you won't have to be concerned with that, you can just sit back and enjoy that everyone came together and hopefully gained some confidence and had some fun.