Praise science!

[jxavier]

Hello friends.
Recently, I've been obsessed with science. I've been learning as much as I possibly can about it including renting books, watching informative youtube videos, even taking a few college classes. I think I'm becoming a scientific generalist and proposer. I love it. Something its been doing, however, is seriously diminishing the trust I have in feelings and emotions. I mean... it really IS all just brain chemistry. I think that there is a soul, but it is made up of billions of tiny robots. Our free, organic consciousness is just another part of the material world, and I've accepted that. However, having concluded this, I realize that this outlook not only differentiates from the general consensus, but it OFFENDS the general consensus. People are seriously upset by the prospect that they're just another bag of chemical responses. Conversations always end in, "Well, its all relative" or, "You're never going to change anybodies mind,". Well... if everything really WAS all relative, then how has science gotten us so far? Also, my mind was changed. I use to be a young-earth creationist in the beginning of high school, now look at me.
Why are people so upset?
Are you upset at this?
Do you have a really good reason for me to stop thinking the way I do?
I'm open to ideas.

 

[the phantom1]

Some people are afraid of the idea that they're not in complete control of defining themselves, which is already a pretty silly thought when you consider that even someone with a "soul" is influenced by their parents and peers growing up. I've heard people argue that there is a special "something" that gives you the option to choose freely, but I've never heard a reasonable argument explaining how someone once used this "free will" to make a decision that couldn't be justified based on their previous experiences and current emotions.

Personally, I think it's beautiful. We're no greater than any other species on this planet looking to survive into the next generation. You should check out "Tales of Ishmael: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit"

 

[jxavier]

If you're talking about Daniel Quinn... you're to late. Already read it.
I think that eventually, people are going to wake up and see the world for what it really is, understanding that emotions are just a by-product of human evolution. It will take a long time, and some people won't accept it, but it will happen. And as for the whole free-will debacle... I like how Christopher Hitchens puts it best when he talks about the irony of free-will, "We're free because we have no other choice,"
But... come on. I mean, we may be just a bag of chemical responses, but we to say we're "no greater" than any other species on this planet is devalueing A LOT. Human beings are fucking awesome! I mean... we went to the moon!

 

[Mash]

I understand that people are upset by the thought that emotions can all be broken down into chemical processes... but what I don't understand is WHY it upsets them so much.

Has anything changed? Are they now some featureless robot upon discovering this information?

Nope.

 

[idiot756]

Oh dear. I hope this isn't one of those "atheists vs. religion" types of topics.

 

[jxavier]

Its science vs. people who reject it.

 

[whade06]

I'd definitely say this is one of "those threads". 😛 For a scientist, you could be better at understanding people. Or maybe you are, people like me read this too after all.

I'd say I'm happy for you, though I think you may be a bit over enthusiastic at the moment, but that's fine.

It's a true eye opener when a person first looks at the world different eyes, and starts using his thinking in a scientific way (as someone once put it on popular theories, "if it doesn't turn your brain inside out, you haven't understood it"); I'm happy for everyone who was lucky enough to get that kind of education early in life.

Ever realized for example, that trees with their branches and leaves, are just large upside down lungs?
(PS. This is just the kind of thing science makes you say. Something absolutely horrifying and yet the scientist is bristling with the joy of understanding as if they have discovered something great.)

Which, in a sense, is true. Discovering about horrible things, -before- they come and hit you, is a great thing.

Now, even if you feel addicted to that kind of "brain high" now, remember that all areas of culture - science, arts, sociology, even -strangely- religion - have their place. Science is in many ways was one of the most radical tools we have acquired, but there have been serious advancements in the other areas too, even if non-specialists are less likely to hear about them. (Even religion. Don't think we have developed a better god image then people have in the olden times? Of course most people believe that god was always the same. Which is the whole point of how it works, really.)
I was addicted to the same kind of hard science rush around my teen years (I was fortunate enough to get proper education early). In my twenties, I gradually moved onto social studies because I realized that there is only so much what one man can understand, and a just as important key is to have people work together on projects and pass on information. (These questions are now making a huge comeback, with the internet creating even more options for group projects and memetic "hive mind" effects.)

 

[PurpleStyle]

Now, even if you feel addicted to that kind of "brain high" now, remember that all areas of culture - science, arts, sociology, even -strangely- religion - have their place. Science is in many ways was one of the most radical tools we have acquired, but there have been serious advancements in the other areas too, even if non-specialists are less likely to hear about them. (Even religion. Don't think we have developed a better god image then people have in the olden times? Of course most people believe that god was always the same. Which is the whole point of how it works, really.)

Religion only advances when it's forced to, which is a testament to it's falsehood.

 

[Slaver123]

So what if we're a pile of mindless atoms that behave in such a way that we call it "life"? So what if we became higher primates thru natural selection and not by the direct sculpting of some Creator? None of that means we don't have a soul!

We may not even be real- this whole universe could be a simulation run on some advanced mainframe. Suppose scientists found out this was the case and proved it beyond any doubt- would that mean we don't have souls?

It doesn't matter what we're made of or how we got this way- humans have souls (except maybe for the sociopaths who lack a conscience) Of course, we haven't defined what a "soul" is...

 

[ideneide]

So what if we're a pile of mindless atoms that behave in such a way that we call it "life"? So what if we became higher primates thru natural selection and not by the direct sculpting of some Creator? None of that means we don't have a soul!

We may not even be real- this whole universe could be a simulation run on some advanced mainframe. Suppose scientists found out this was the case and proved it beyond any doubt- would that mean we don't have souls?

It doesn't matter what we're made of or how we got this way- humans have souls (except maybe for the sociopaths who lack a conscience) Of course, we haven't defined what a "soul" is...

You have to read some of Stanislaw Lem stories !

 

[tklmaestro]

So what if we're a pile of mindless atoms that behave in such a way that we call it "life"? So what if we became higher primates thru natural selection and not by the direct sculpting of some Creator? None of that means we don't have a soul!

We may not even be real- this whole universe could be a simulation run on some advanced mainframe. Suppose scientists found out this was the case and proved it beyond any doubt- would that mean we don't have souls?

It doesn't matter what we're made of or how we got this way- humans have souls (except maybe for the sociopaths who lack a conscience) Of course, we haven't defined what a "soul" is...

I agree. Its refreshing to see someone else who actually lives in the 21st century...

 

[Mash]

So what if we're a pile of mindless atoms that behave in such a way that we call it "life"? So what if we became higher primates thru natural selection and not by the direct sculpting of some Creator? None of that means we don't have a soul!

We may not even be real- this whole universe could be a simulation run on some advanced mainframe. Suppose scientists found out this was the case and proved it beyond any doubt- would that mean we don't have souls?

It doesn't matter what we're made of or how we got this way- humans have souls (except maybe for the sociopaths who lack a conscience) Of course, we haven't defined what a "soul" is...

When we can break down every human reaction on a chemical level, what basis is there to say that a soul exists?

I don't believe that a soul of any sort exists. I find it infinitely more believable that every human emotion, and that in fact our entire personality is defined by the levels of chemicals in our brains. That's also how we define personality disorders; shortages and excesses of certain hormones/chemicals.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

When we can break down every human reaction on a chemical level, what basis is there to say that a soul exists?

I don't believe that a soul of any sort exists. I find it infinitely more believable that every human emotion, and that in fact our entire personality is defined by the levels of chemicals in our brains. That's also how we define personality disorders; shortages and excesses of certain hormones/chemicals.

(shrugs) As far as the soul goes, I just believe it's a nigh infinite series of electrical signals which is freed to ascend to higher planes of existence when the body perishes. Some might call that a person's life force or chi? I dunno myself personally. Unlike others I fully admit I might be wrong (though I really do hope I'm not [as it would ROYALLY suck if I just ceased to exist after death]).

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

Also...SCIENCE!

^_~

 

[jxavier]

A soul?
That concept never had to exist. We appear so self aware and free to think and act because, ironically, we have no other choice. Of course we think we're real and alive and that we're more than just mechanical impulses... we have nothing to compare it to.
When you make choices, are your choices really all that free? Or is it just habit brought upon by positive reinforcement throughout your life.

As Daniel Dennett puts it, "Yes we have a soul, but its made up of millions of tiny machines." Our emotions, passions, everything works. But thats the key word... WORKS. And thats okay. I don't mind being a bag of chemical reactions. I'm cool with that. It hasn't changed how I feel about things... the people I love, the music I adore, the goals I have...
And non-existence won't be all that bad. In fact, it won't be good either. It won't be anything. We won't be conscious, we won't be able to interpret it. We won't be bored or depressed or lonely or anything. And THEN we've reached true objectivity. Thats effing beautiful yo.

 

[jxavier]

Also...SCIENCE!

^_~

Yes.... Science!

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

And non-existence won't be all that bad. In fact, it won't be good either. It won't be anything. We won't be conscious, we won't be able to interpret it. We won't be bored or depressed or lonely or anything. And THEN we've reached true objectivity. Thats effing beautiful yo.

You call ceasing to exist beautiful? Are you on crack?

Some of us would like to keep our consciousnesses intact thank you very much.

If we simply wink out of existence while our bodies rot in the ground, what would be the purpose of bettering ourselves dude?

With nothing to hope for we'd have no reason to be better persons and would have EVER REASON to misbehave and cause pain and suffering to those who don't deserve it (because since your not going to exist after death it doesn't matter what you do in life).

I feel you people who believe in simply ceasing to exist after rigor mortis are treading a dangerous line of justified immorality.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

That concept never had to exist.

Your saying our ancestors never had to hope for something after death? That they never had to hope to see again the loved ones, friends, and family of theirs who passed beyond the veil of the unknown that is unreachable to the living? That's...not a very good way to think dude. Hope is important. It gives us all a reason to go on. It gives our lives meaning.

 

[PurpleStyle]

Call the whambulance and make sure they've got sutures handy, I'm about to rip you a new one.

You call ceasing to exist beautiful? Are you on crack?

I think the cycle of life is beautiful. When I die, I'll die knowing that I'm returning the energy I "stole" from the Earth. Whether or not we die is irrelevant in the long run, because we are of the universe, so we will always exist in some way or another.

Some of us would like to keep our consciousnesses intact thank you very much.

For how long before it gets boring to the point of maddening?

If we simply wink out of existence while our bodies rot in the ground, what would be the purpose of bettering ourselves dude?

If you have to ask that question, then you don't understand the point of bettering yourself. It's the journey that matters, not the destination.

With nothing to hope for we'd have no reason to be better persons and would have EVER REASON to misbehave and cause pain and suffering to those who don't deserve it (because since your not going to exist after death it doesn't matter what you do in life).

I feel you people who believe in simply ceasing to exist after rigor mortis are treading a dangerous line of justified immorality.

Nice straw man you put up there, Rox. Those of us who do realize that this is all there is, treat life more sacred than those who think there is an afterlife where we can be redeemed. Those of us who do not believe in an afterlife have to live with the consequences of our actions. People like you don't; so don't get started on talking about "justified immorality".

See what I did there? 😉

 

[Smoten]

As a fellow and proud member of the human race, I happen to think that digital watches were a pretty neat idea.

 

[Mash]

Your saying our ancestors never had to hope for something after death? That they never had to hope to see again the loved ones, friends, and family of theirs who passed beyond the veil of the unknown that is unreachable to the living? That's...not a very good way to think dude. Hope is important. It gives us all a reason to go on. It gives our lives meaning.

No, they didn't.

They chose to, but it was never a requirement to continue living.

And the concept of a 'soul' gives death meaning, not life. You give your life meaning through your actions, not through your beliefs.

 

[tklmaestro]

As a fellow and proud member of the human race, I happen to think that digital watches were a pretty neat idea.

I agree. "Digital"...finally someone is making some sense....

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

No, they didn't. They chose to, but it was never a requirement to continue living.

Life without hope is no life to live whatsoever.

And the concept of a 'soul' gives death meaning, not life.

Death is a part of LIFE. It's part of the truth of our existence. It's only natural for people to want to HOPE for some kind of EXISTENCE after death in which we see old friends and family members that have gone past the veil before us.

You give your life meaning through your actions, not through your beliefs.

Your forgetting that our beliefs FUEL OUR ACTIONS. Our own personal truths define who we are.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

As a fellow and proud member of the human race, I happen to think that digital watches were a pretty neat idea.

...yeah...I'll agree to that. ^_~

 

[Smoten]

I also never leave home without my towel. It's infinitely more useful than you might think.