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Prayer for Prayer's Sake?

Dr. Bill Kobb

Level of Cherry Feather
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
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I found a particular scene in the movie The Book of Eli quite moving and it spurred me to thought on what I hope won't be a hot-button topic. Namely, the power of prayer and it's usefulness. I am curious how others weigh in on prayer. Especially as used by someone not connected to any organized religion. Take me, for example. I'm an agnostic. Do any religious folks on board feel that I don't have the right to practice prayer? Anyone from either side of the fence(religious or atheist) feel that I would be utterly wasting my time? Is it enough just to give thanks for having what one has on this mortal coil, though not to any specific deity? What about wishing for another's happiness, or health, or whatever? Is prayer a negligible positive ripple sent out into the cold, uncaring void or does it have the potential for something more? What about praying for bad things? Either out of greed, or as a curse on someone else? Do you feel there is any power in this sort of act? I'm much more interested in member's own thoughts and opinions rather than pithy prayer-bashing image finds from the Web, m'kay? :2:
 
Being scientific about it..

There are several theories and studies going around to show the effect that prayer and thought have on the physical realm. Can three people praying around a sick child cure her of disease? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

Probably not.

Can human thought alter the physical realm?

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

Maybe.


Being non-scientific about it, I'd say it's like a type of meditation. If it helps you, do it. If it doesn't, find something that does. Don't let other people's ignorance and stupidity stop you from doing something that helps ya. :3
 
Oh I just have to say something. Can't keep it to myself.

How would thought alter the physical realm? Unless there's some kind of hidden natural force that we're not scientifically aware of that:

-has selective interaction
-has strong interaction
-isn't mediated by any type of particles.

At least gravity has demonstrable results.
 
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Yeah I tried to read that article, I was laughing too hard at everything it was proposing. Couldn't finish it.

Anyway, those are bad comparisons. Most humans didn't have the required knowledge to understand the world was round. Nor did they have the adequate information to understand the Earth orbits the Sun. However; the evidence has always existed for humans to discover. In fact, educated humans in the east have known the Earth is round for approximately 2,500 years (Pythagoras; for example! I know, I know, he's Greek...). These people used math to figure these things out; and we discovered it through them.

I'm sure you're wondering what my point is - there is no credible evidence of "mind powers" existing.
 
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In one of my psychology classes I was told about a study (the source of which I sadly cannot remember) where they attempted to scientifically test the power of telepathy or clairvoyance or whatever you might call it in this case.

It was a standard double-blind test where each participant was made aware they would be sent an email from one of four people, so not even the experimenter would know who would send an email to whom. Each participant had to guess who would send them an email. Probability theory states that a participant should have a 25% chance of making a successful guess, but the number of correct guesses was closer to 50%.

Right now someone's jumping up and down thinking there may be something to this, but here's what I'm wondering: If there is any validity to the claims from the people that supposedly possess these powers, why is their only one truly scientific study that anyone can think of (and cannot remember the source for) that seems to confirm this?

Cognitio I really hope you included that second link as a joke :lol in which case it's a good one.
 
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

So the disbelief that anything is possible is stemming from the fact that there is no hard evidence of it. Or that we lack tools at the moment to prove it.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Wiseboy202/7625_314171150003_527780003_9135734.jpg

But I'll try anyways.

"Good Lord Leeuwenhoek, what are you doing" says Moron.

"I'm polishing and shaving glass to better look at things" replied Leeuwenhoek.

"Why would you do that? That's dumb" said the Moron.

Later, the Father of Microbiology 'discovered' Red Blood cells and Bacteria. Something that had always been there, but we had never seen. Something that we always had the tools around to use and shape to discover them with, but had never done before.

I'm not saying believe in vampires because no one has a way to disprove they exist. I'm saying that being open minded and full of imagination has gotten people pretty far in terms of discovery.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm working on a time machine made of snow and peanuts.
 
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

So the disbelief that anything is possible is stemming from the fact that there is no hard evidence of it. Or that we lack tools at the moment to prove it.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Wiseboy202/7625_314171150003_527780003_9135734.jpg

But I'll try anyways.

"Good Lord Leeuwenhoek, what are you doing" says Moron.

"I'm polishing and shaving glass to better look at things" replied Leeuwenhoek.

"Why would you do that? That's dumb" said the Moron.

Later, the Father of Microbiology 'discovered' Red Blood cells and Bacteria. Something that had always been there, but we had never seen. Something that we always had the tools around to use and shape to discover them with, but had never done before.

I'm not saying believe in vampires because no one has a way to disprove they exist. I'm saying that being open minded and full of imagination has gotten people pretty far in terms of discovery.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm working on a time machine made of snow and peanuts.

As charming as that was, it was unrelated. Prayer is entirely personal anecdote, with no way to test in a laboratory, whereas Leeuwenhoek made progress on something provable and substantial. Is there a measuring unit to prayer? Can ordinary people who pray cure their child's common cold - while there are other people out there in the world who praying hysterically, sobbing into their hands after each word, watch their gods forsake them? Did the latter not believe hard enough? Maybe they should have stopped crying. God must be a bit hard of hearing sometimes and didn't catch the few bits that might have been vital in their prayer.

Prayer is that little bit of comfort we make for ourselves. We're all compelled to do it when there's nothing else we can do. It's a psychological response more than anything else: we cried when we were little, and we were answered by our parents. And so we cry into the visible nothing and hope something will answer.
 
Prayer is that little bit of comfort we make for ourselves. We're all compelled to do it when there's nothing else we can do. It's a psychological response more than anything else: we cried when we were little, and we were answered by our parents. And so we cry into the visible nothing and hope something will answer.

I suppose that sums up my personal thoughts on prayer better than I ever could.

While it's apparently a scientific given that all matter has energy(or IS energy? Something like that...), it might be nice if all energy mattered, too. But hey! When you're all out of other options, at least it's there.
 
Later, the Father of Microbiology 'discovered' Red Blood cells and Bacteria. Something that had always been there, but we had never seen. Something that we always had the tools around to use and shape to discover them with, but had never done before.

I'm not saying believe in vampires because no one has a way to disprove they exist. I'm saying that being open minded and full of imagination has gotten people pretty far in terms of discovery.

I'll admit you have a point there. But before I seriously entertain the possibility that something may exist, I at least need to see its effects. To say something may exist, we just don't have the tools or technology to discover it, is a meaningless statement. Anything may exist but when it comes to supposed psychic phenomena, people go into all this detail about what it is and isn't when as even you say, we have no quantifiable (God please let that be the right word) evidence to support it as a theory.
 
I feel there is limitless power in prayer, and that though many people resort to prayer as a last resort, it should be taken as a first step of action as (all in my opinion, remember?) it's the MOST powerful method possible.

I was prayed for by EVERYONE, non-stop, for I don't know 'how' long, and, here I am today. :ggrin: So, take me for example: I was T-boned by an SUV, I sustained EXTENSIVE diaphragmatic hemorrhaging, almost all my organs being pushed up into my thoracic cavity (meaning: all my organs went up into my ribs, and I say almost as I'm under the assumption that my reproductive and renal organs didn't land in my ribs [though I have NO renal sensitivity now... :huh]), both my lungs 'deflated', thus, namely my brain, sustained hypoxia for an indefinite amount of time (60-90 minutes, I'm thinking), my pelvic broke on both sides (my pelvic was fractured 4 times), all my ribs were broken on my left side (but my 10th and.. 4th I think. 4th or 3rd...), I think 3-6 ribs were broken on my right side, my left collarbone was fractured/broke, my left knee turned the size of a football, I had a cut on the back left side of my head (didn't cut through my skull, thankfully), my brain was thoroughly messed up - everywhere (my doctor explained to my parents that: my brain's like a cobweb, and a machete had sliced through it both ways), I sustained an, axel-diffusion injury (along with many many more), and... that's about all I can think of 'now', though there's likely more than that.

I was in a coma (level 3 on the Glasgow? coma scale) for '3' weeks: two weeks in a coma and one in a 'stupor' (intermittent consciousness), and the doctors said at BEST I was to be a vegetable. I had a less than three percent chance of surviving when I first arrived, and, here I am now (though I still have likely an equally long list of problems to deal with *sigh*). So, if I 'am' a vegetable, I'm afraid to think of what most other people would be. 😉 :lol

That was a LOOOOONNNGG shpeel to say I think prayer IS powerful!
(And, Purple's likely going to explain my faith away ;P)

Exactly what I mean by personal anecdote. You felt like you were doing something when you were helpless and couldn't do anything to actually help yourself.

Prayer has its merits as a form of meditation, it centers willpower and helps the person find peace in a place without it. That being said, its benefits are undeniably and only internal until we find documentation outside personal anecdote to prove its place as an environmental factor.
 
Exactly what I mean by personal anecdote. You felt like you were doing something when you were helpless and couldn't do anything to actually help yourself.

Prayer has its merits as a form of meditation, it centers willpower and helps the person find peace in a place without it. That being said, its benefits are undeniably and only internal until we find documentation outside personal anecdote to prove its place as an environmental factor.

Hey, I'm just using myself as an example. In the end, it's faith on whether you believe the 'power of prayer', or look for rational facts to affirm your beliefs.
 
As Ambrose Bierce said in The Devil's Dictionary: "An inventor is a person who makes an ingenious arrangement of wheels, levers and springs, and believes it civilization."

First we need to understand why science is more important than faith. Science is applicable. Science is the human embodiment of logic, reason, and knowledge itself. Faith is the surrender of all those things; it's a belief in something with no physical evidence.

Science is also responsible for the infrastructure of civilization. Not all of us can hunt, kill, cook or grow our own food in large quantities. Just the same; not all of us are trained medical workers who know how to clean wounds, and most of us aren't capable of creating medicines that can cure diseases and fight infections. Not everyone who has these skills can teach them either. If you take away that infrastructure; the knowledge to do all these important things is lost as people die; and we go back to the dark ages.

With that said, I know for sure without proper medical treatment, you probably would have died from infection. Of course, I fully expect you to attribute god to "inspiring the invention of antibiotics and civilization" and what have you. Unfortunately, I have more to say on that matter.

It's fine to personally attribute things to god, but to do so publicly is actually quite dishonest. Let's look at why that is. What is god? According to catechism, se's supposed to "transcend the human sexes". He also "transcends motherhood and fatherhood". When the "language of faith" states that "god is the father", it's a metaphor. He has no gender. Isiah 66:13 and Psalm 131.2 are examples where he is likened to motherhood. But I digress; these things still fail to tell us what god is. What it says of god is: "god is god.", "god is unique.", "god is one."god is mystery." "god is infinitely above everything", and "transcends the world and history". My favorite; "god is of himself everything that he is."

The tl;dr version: This is all pretty jumbled and nonsensical. There's no ontology of god. 'He's not coherently defined. So... who or what are you supposed to be praying to? Who or what does anybody pray to? You have no idea. I don't either. Neither does anybody. What frame of reference do you have for drawing the idea that prayer has any power at all? You might have a personal simulation of god that you run inside your head, but it's still undefined. So for all you know, you could be praying to a being that possibly created the universe out of some sadistic need to make creatures suffer; and every time you pray, he hears it - and any time he 'helps', he's actually setting you up for a much worse situation down the road.

So where does that leave us? Well, there's always that silly Physical Evidence And Reasoned Logic idea. 🙂
 
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As Ambrose Bierce said in The Devil's Dictionary: "An inventor is a person who makes an ingenious arrangement of wheels, levers and springs, and believes it civilization."

First we need to understand why science is more important than faith. Science is applicable. Science is the human embodiment of logic, reason, and knowledge itself. Faith is the surrender of all those things; it's a belief in something with no physical evidence.

Science is also responsible for the infrastructure of civilization. Not all of us can hunt, kill, cook or grow our own food in large quantities. Just the same; not all of us are trained medical workers who know how to clean wounds, and most of us aren't capable of creating medicines that can cure diseases and fight infections. Not everyone who has these skills can teach them either. If you take away that infrastructure; the knowledge to do all these important things is lost as people die; and we go back to the dark ages.

With that said, I know for sure without proper medical treatment, you probably would have died from infection. Of course, I fully expect you to attribute god to "inspiring the invention of antibiotics and civilization" and what have you. Unfortunately, I have more to say on that matter.

It's fine to personally attribute things to god, but to do so publicly is actually quite dishonest. Let's look at why that is. What is god? According to catechism, se's supposed to "transcend the human sexes". He also "transcends motherhood and fatherhood". When the "language of faith" states that "god is the father", it's a metaphor. He has no gender. Isiah 66:13 and Psalm 131.2 are examples where he is likened to motherhood. But I digress; these things still fail to tell us what god is. What it says of god is: "god is god.", "god is unique.", "god is one."god is mystery." "god is infinitely above everything", and "transcends the world and history". My favorite; "god is of himself everything that he is."

The tl;dr version: This is all pretty jumbled and nonsensical. There's no ontology of god. 'He's not coherently defined. So... who or what are you supposed to be praying to? Who or what does anybody pray to? You have no idea. I don't either. Neither does anybody. What frame of reference do you have for drawing the idea that prayer has any power at all? You might have a personal simulation of god that you run inside your head, but it's still undefined. So for all you know, you could be praying to a being that possibly created the universe out of some sadistic need to make creatures suffer; and every time you pray, he hears it - and any time he 'helps', he's actually setting you up for a much worse situation down the road.

So where does that leave us? Well, there's always that silly Physical Evidence And Reasoned Logic idea. 🙂

And that is why I love Chun Li.

But on the point of prayer, and faith, I'll try to put this as coherently as possible.

I believe that prayer is a very important tool. It connects you with everything around you, I believe, and it does indeed focus your energies when done correctly in order to bring peace in order to accomplish tasks.

Is it a form of meditation? Yes. Do I think there is a creator? I know there's one. I'm sure that some will disagree, either in their own hearts and on the board itself, and others will say, "I'm not sure," in the most eloquent ways possible. But I know that prayer connects you to this being.

But it also connects you to other beings as well. Be it a person, or a demon. An angel, or a spirit long past.

Do you have a right to pray, simply because you don't believe in God?

Yes. You do. It is silly to even assume that you don't. That would defeat the purpose. It isn't a christian thing, or an islamic thing or a hebraic thing. It's an all people thing.

It's up to you if you want to pray for bad tings, but I will warn you of the universal laws which make the repercussions very dreadful. But also, it depends on how diabolical it is. And you must also remember, that not everything is bad to everyone.

I always enjoy this particular story.

If anyone in here watches coast to coast AM regularly, you might remember this psychic who proposed that all the listeners focus on rain for this drought-stricken town in Texas. I don't remember the town, this episode happened in the nineties. People in this place were literally fighting for water.

All the listeners, or at least some of them, concentrated on rain for the town. By the end of the broadcast, the drought had broken. Even though there was no rain scheduled for a long time off.

What is more, there was a flood.

SO, yes, I believe in prayer connecting people with our creator. But I also believe that we can manipulate the physical realm.

And no one had better come at me with their bull cocky about "where's the evidence Journia?!?!?" Ask da fuggin' Texans! Or better yet, Email George Noory! He will gladly confirm it.

And yes, there is proof for psychic powers. But just because some people don't exhibit them, or the abilities themselves refuse to be tested doesn't mean they don't exist. They could be like some quantum particles that in theory change shape as they are observed or not observed.

EDIT:

Hell, I prayed for ticklish females! Look what I have in my sig!
 
This thread is now too intellectual to be fun. Way to ruin it for everyone Purple 🙁
 
This thread is now too intellectual to be fun. Way to ruin it for everyone Purple 🙁

No no, there's still room for everyone's input on the topic, be it for fun, or for chiming in pro or con on the matter. I especially liked Purple's last paragraph, as the concept had occurred to me, too. 🙂
 
The beauty of the human mind, and prayer, is how much we WANT to be able to predict things. That's what makes gambling so dangerous, people began to feel like they can see a pattern in an entirely random occurrence.

Prayer is like that. Just because B follows A, doesn't mean A caused B, but people who believe in prayer think it to be so because of that little predictability bias in our minds.

I think everyone needs a crash-course in basic psychology 😛
 
No no, there's still room for everyone's input on the topic, be it for fun, or for chiming in pro or con on the matter. I especially liked Purple's last paragraph, as the concept had occurred to me, too. 🙂

Thank you! Most of the things I touch on are easily verifiable by anybody with an internet connection, so it's not as though nobody can contribute. In fact, I would hope that I could inspire people to dig deeper. That said..

---

It's because I like you so much that I'm about to go through your reply with skepticism.

And that is why I love Chun Li.

But on the point of prayer, and faith, I'll try to put this as coherently as possible.

I believe that prayer is a very important tool. It connects you with everything around you, I believe, and it does indeed focus your energies when done correctly in order to bring peace in order to accomplish tasks.

Is it a form of meditation? Yes. Do I think there is a creator? I know there's one. I'm sure that some will disagree, either in their own hearts and on the board itself, and others will say, "I'm not sure," in the most eloquent ways possible. But I know that prayer connects you to this being.

First you believe, then you know? How? Where is the frame of reference or the coherent definition of such an idea? The evidence for it to exist? Could we not just eliminate the need for prayer and stick with meditation itself? Would not away exorcising away the need for faith allow one's self more focus?

But it also connects you to other beings as well. Be it a person, or a demon. An angel, or a spirit long past.

Do you have a right to pray, simply because you don't believe in God?

Yes. You do. It is silly to even assume that you don't. That would defeat the purpose. It isn't a christian thing, or an islamic thing or a hebraic thing. It's an all people thing.

Sure. I personally think prayer is wasteful and intellectually lazy, but I wouldn't force others to stop praying even if I could. I would prefer people to enlighten themselves with materialistic knowledge at their own pace. Of course, yahweh will remind you that you're only allowed to pray to him, because building shrines to other gods moves him to jealousy with their idols (Psalm 78:58).


It's up to you if you want to pray for bad tings, but I will warn you of the universal laws which make the repercussions very dreadful. But also, it depends on how diabolical it is. And you must also remember, that not everything is bad to everyone.

I always enjoy this particular story.

If anyone in here watches coast to coast AM regularly, you might remember this psychic who proposed that all the listeners focus on rain for this drought-stricken town in Texas. I don't remember the town, this episode happened in the nineties. People in this place were literally fighting for water.

All the listeners, or at least some of them, concentrated on rain for the town. By the end of the broadcast, the drought had broken. Even though there was no rain scheduled for a long time off.

What is more, there was a flood.

SO, yes, I believe in prayer connecting people with our creator. But I also believe that we can manipulate the physical realm.

And no one had better come at me with their bull cocky about "where's the evidence Journia?!?!?" Ask da fuggin' Texans! Or better yet, Email George Noory! He will gladly confirm it.

Eyewitness testimony is beneath the lowest rung in the hierarchy of acceptable evidence. That said - I apologize if this appears to be an ad hominem attack - but C2C is the same radio show that accepts ideas like UFOs, global conspiracies, big foot, chupa cabra, demons who physically rape women, etc - at face value. They're so odiously deceitful that they claimed to be aware of a UFO following the Hale-Bopp comet (which as you know, is the same belief system that led to the Heaven's Gate cult mass suicide).

If you published a peer-reviewed article citing C2C as a source... I can't even imagine the ridicule you'd endure.


And yes, there is proof for psychic powers. But just because some people don't exhibit them, or the abilities themselves refuse to be tested doesn't mean they don't exist. They could be like some quantum particles that in theory change shape as they are observed or not observed.

EDIT:

Hell, I prayed for ticklish females! Look what I have in my sig!

I actually really enjoy that last paragraph; as skeptical of it as I am. It is true that there are particles whose physical properties change when trying to observe them - sub-atomic particles. You cannot know the position and momentum of an electron simultaneously. This isn't due to any limit of human perception; it's physically impossible to know one trait without 'corrupting' the other. I can also appreciate the idea of particles we can't detect. Gravity, dark matter, and dark energy are not mediated by any sort of (currently detected) particles. It's actually difficult to even attempt detecting new particles because of background neutrinos, which I won't get into for now. 🙂

TL;DR version: Evidence that you can test and reproduce = good. Coast To Coast AM = bad. Theoretical and quantum physics = very, very, very good.
 
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I actually really enjoy that last paragraph; as skeptical of it as I am.
...
TL;DR version: Evidence that you can test and reproduce = good. Coast To Coast AM = bad. Theoretical and quantum physics = very, very, very good.

Yay! I came out unscathed.

And yeah, we could just do away with the prayer and focus on the meditation, it works just as well. But some people need to have the individual to focus upon.

And why do people try to use the bible on me? :lol They should already know I don't follow any of the books anyhow.

GASP! Maye that's why I'm running around in circles, running around in circles running around in circles running around in...
 
I pretty much agree with Purple so I'll keep this one short as she has already said mostly anything that I could or would have said.

I'll just do it a bit more lightheartedly...

Praying to me is a conceptual contradiction. To quote the GREAT George Carlin:

"What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?"

Having said that, I do appreciate the value of thankfulness and spirituality, yes, us atheist CAN be very spiritual if we want to, in a Pantheistic way of course, but to me that's even more awe inspiring. I invite people to hear Dawkins and deGrasse Tyson on their views about the universe and existence, I think there is a video on youtube that actually comprises both of them nicely.

watch?v=ptwEV0xhTzI&feature=related

Just a point in spirituality and ability to be amazed...

Oh, one more thing, James Randi has so far wiped the floor with anyone claiming to have supernatural abilities, so no evidence whatsoever there.

Just my two cents... for now...

J
 
Eh, prayer is all well and good, after all we all need to wish and dream sometimes, but the important thing is to not wait around for your prayers to do something. Somebody a lot smarter than me used to tell me "If God exists, he helps those who help themselves."

As far as it having a supernatural effect, I think it can sometimes seem to have such an effect when it creates a really positive attitude in someone who needs to get cured or whatever. Positive attitudes are usually the most important thing to recovering quickly or at all, so if other people praying for you gives you that, "miraculous" recoveries are sometimes possible. The important thing is to not expect praying for something to do it, that's your job.
 
No, this was fun while I didn't have to take it seriously. Does anyone honestly believe they've put forward a single thing here that we haven't all heard before?

There was a thread over at TMF where someone was asking if their fetish was evil or blasphemous or something or other. My response was that you shouldn't be asking a question like that on a board of tickling enthusiasts since clearly everyone who is an active member has no problem with it themselves, thereby giving a biased outlook. Not that I didn't agree with all of them, but I was the only one prepared to admit that we might all be wrong. 11 pages later no one could remember the original topic, and of course my post was entirely ignored, just like everyone else's. :stickout

Sorry Mr. Tibbler, but I'm a mere 20 and still far too old to be taking debates like this seriously, knowing how it'll turn out. You kids have fun though.
 
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