Religion - Future discussion

[redway10]

The smartest person in the world...

The currently acknowledged "smartest person in the world" is a woman named Marilyn vos Savant, with an IQ over 200. Among other activities, she has a widely read column in Parade Magazine.

When asked "What is the greatest misconception by people today?" she responded that people do not openly acknowledge the fact that the world's major religions directly contradict each other, and therefore at most only one of them can be correct.

This is about as close as she could come in a national publication in a country with a 95% rate of belief in God (the highest in the developed world) to saying that she believes that all religions are "fairy tales", which is clearly what she was implying.

Thousands of years from now people will look back on "Western Mythology" (Christianity) and "Eastern Mythology" (Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) the same way that we look at Roman, Greek, Norse, Egyptian Mythology, etc. They are going to have a really tough time figuring out how a society that could travel in space and study the origins of the earth with modern tools would have so many believers in "Creationism", etc.

Hey, I can't figure it out, either. P. T. Barnum was right.

 

[qjakal]

Marilyn vs...the bouncer...

Obviously you're also from around these parts near NYC/Long Island redway. I believe that that bouncer out on the east end is scoring around 220+, if i recall the article from a few months ago in the same paper correctly. He, on the other hand, professed a belief in both a new type of quantum mechanics and a higher powers existence.....just in case you're keeping score by IQ. I'm around 160 and I'm neutral on the subject...could be a god/s, but I'm still looking. Anyway, higher technology doesn't always equate to a superior system of beliefs, although it would be comforting to think it was directly linked. On with the thread!! Q the seeker!

 

[Tickler2001]

The unknown, scary stuff!!

Religion was first invented to explain the unknown. We as humans have a big fear of things we can't explain.

ASU, your questions simply present the unknown. Our technology at this point isn't advanced enough to give you these answers. Possibly the human brain hasn't evolved enough yet to understand the answers to those questions. In know way do your unexplained questions offer any proof of the existence of a "higher being". At this point all we know is that existence just is. We can't explain it at this point. Someday we will, maybe a 100 years, maybe 1000, but our technology will get there. Unfortunately probably not in our lifetime.

Just because there are unanswered questions does this suggest the existence of a "higher being"? Thats just an idea someone through out there, it has no proof at all to back it up.

If a god created the universe, who created god?

You say he always existed because he is supreme?

If thats possible than why isn't it possible that the universe just always existed on its own?

I'm not claiming to have the answers, just stating that religion is fairytales and there is know evidence to back it up.

 

[asutickler]

lol. Q, you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.


Marilyn vos Savant (not to be petty, but what are the odds of the "world's smartest person" being born with the last name "Savant"?) was formerly listed as the World's Smartest Person by the Guinesses (sp?) Book of World Records. They eliminated that ranking in, I believe, 1998- due to controversy over percentile rankings from different tests equating to different scores. IMHO, Marilyn can be a little strange sometimes, and she has been incorrect on many occasions. If you would like to see them, they're here:

http://www.wiskit.com/marilyn/marilyn.html

"The Bouncer" (not from Squaresoft) is one Chris Langan, who works part time, earns $6000 per year, and is confident that he can prove the existence of God mathematically. I saw an episode of 20/20 featuring him, and he seemed pretty cool. For more info:

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_991210_iq_chat.html

Noted Cosmologist (No, not make-up, that's a cosmoTOlogist) Stephen Hawking is another highly intelligent person. If he isn't actually smarter than Marilyn, I daresay he is at least more educated. Stephen has referenced the idea of a supreme being many times (in much the same manner as Mr. Langan) as being the basis for the promotion of order and harmony in the universe.

Now, to the meat of the matter: Marilyn states that "the world's major religions directly contradict each other." This is just not so. I would explain it myself, but instead I will leave that up to a leader of a different faith than my own, His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso, The Fourteenth Dalai Lama. You can see his thoughts on the diverse religions of the globe (as well as his thoughts about promoting world peace amongst various religious groups) here:

http://www.tibet.dk/karmapa_trust/religion.htm


Hmmm... looking back on what I've written, I appear to have gone quite link-happy, but I always was a fan of the Legend of Zelda... 😀 (Dennis Miller, watch out!)


ASUTickler

 

[asutickler]

Re: The unknown, scary stuff!!

I'm not claiming to have the answers, just stating that religion is fairytales and there is know evidence to back it up.

I'm not claiming to have the answers either. I'm just stating that the possibility that there is a supreme being is equally as valid as the possibility that there is not. Yes, no one has actually proven the existence of God. However, no one has DISproven the existsnce of God, either. Until someone does, your disbeliefs are every bit as much "fairytales" as my beliefs are.

BTW, there is no way that technology will come to the point that the human race will know absolutely everything about everything. That is just plain illogical. On a positive note, though, we'll all get to find out who's right someday on the whole God issue. And remember: If I'm right and we're all in an eternal paradise somewhere, I'm never going to let you "live" it down! 😛


ASUTickler

 

[qjakal]

The Bouncer....

He's a compelling character, no doubt about it...I've read part of his new theory, and it SEEMS coherent, although I of course lack the necessary reference points to have an educated opinion about its validity. Here he is on creationism:

Chris Langan at 5:45pm ET
"I believe in the theory of evolution, but I believe as well in the allegorical truth of creation theory. In other words, I believe that evolution, including the principle of natural selection, is one of the tools used by God to create mankind. Mankind is then a participant in the creation of the universe itself, so that we have a closed loop. I believe that there is a level on which science and religious metaphor are mutually compatible."

This is actually closer to what redway was postulating...that we haven't reached the point of comprehension necessary to understand a "god" or ones existence and frame of reference. Anyway, it's not all about IQ, I've met some pretty smart cookies (did someone say snickerdoodles?) who probably couldn't hit triple digits on a standardized test....

Q

 

[asutickler]

Re: The Bouncer....

I've met some pretty smart cookies (did someone say snickerdoodles?) who probably couldn't hit triple digits on a standardized test....

heh. It works both ways... I'm dumb as a post most of the time, but I have this odd habit of cleaning house on any standardized or multiple choice test. It's a usefull skill, so long as I can manage to stay in college for the rest of my life!


ASUTickler


P.S. I've never had a Snickerdoodle, but I could eat White Fudge Dipped Oreos by the freakin' CRATE! They sell them in bulk at Sam's Club, and I have to limit myself to one box per trip, lest I wind up weighing 500 lbs...

 

[redway10]

No, Not Really

ASUTickler -

The Dalai Lama's dissertation claims that the SPIRIT of the world's major religions are not contradictory. However they clearly DO contradict each other in practice, and (certainly Christianity and Islam) go to great lengths to state that believing in other religions is not the same as believing in their religion. Therefore, they cannot all be correct, many must be wrong.

And if Christianity is true, how sad for the losers born in China, India, the Middle East, etc. The Christian Bible claims (Mark 16:16) in Jesus' own words, that they are well and truly damned (being a good Hindu does not count). Is this fact too ugly for Christians to admit???

There is plenty of proof against many aspects of the written 'bibles' of the world's major religions, and of course their is no proof against the aspects of those religions that are not disprovable. No one can prove that God is not a grain of sand on a beach in Maui, but that does not lend any credence to it being so.

If God exists, he sure has done a fantastic job of creating a universe that makes it look like he doesn't. Enjoy your belief system handed down by your ancestors, but it is false, plain and simple.

It is really sad that the overwhelming majority of individuals who claim to have a deep and heartfelt belief in a higher power, actually just have a somewhat modified version of the religion handed to them by their parents.

Fossil records alone disprove the Biblical account of creation. Creationists can cover their eyes and ears to the truth for their hope of salvation, that's very nice for them.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"

 

[asutickler]

*And if Christianity is true, how sad for the losers born in China, India, the Middle East, etc. The Christian Bible claims (Mark 16:16) in Jesus' own words, that they are well and truly damned (being a good Hindu does not count). Is this fact too ugly for Christians to admit???*

As I believe someone already stated: Ascribing to a literal translation of the Bible is not exactly the norm these days. No one, at ANY church I've ever been to, has EVER implied that persons of other faiths are "damned." This is a belief mostly espoused by the folks you see standing on street corners, thumping Bibles and telling passers-by that they are going to hell. Have you ever heard of the "silent majority?" Quite frankly, I would not belong to a denomination that unilaterally believed that non-believers are headed straight to hell.


*If God exists, he sure has done a fantastic job of creating a universe that makes it look like he doesn't. Enjoy your belief system handed down by your ancestors, but it is false, plain and simple.*

Are you familiar with the Big Bang Theory? I have yet to hear a better arguement in favor of a higher power than the assertation that all of the matter in the universe spontaneously exploded outwards from an area the size of a thimble.


*Fossil records alone disprove the Biblical account of creation. Creationists can cover their eyes and ears to the truth for their hope of salvation, that's very nice for them.*

The Biblical account of creation was allegedly transmitted from God to some unknown individual several thousand years ago. Do you not think that God would phrase His story in such a way as to make it palatable to a primitive human? The creation story itself states that the sun and moon were created on the 4th day... If so, what was used to measure the previous 3 days? Besides, who's to say what constitutes a "day" to the mind and perception of a higher power?

Sure there is a very vocal minority who still assert that things happened exactly as the Bible states. To them I would ask: How is Creation through evolution any less impressive than outright creation? I can build a tower out of toy blocks, but I certainly cannot roll my blocks down a large hill and make them form a tower at the bottom...


ASUTickler

 

[qjakal]

A memorable joke....

ASUtickler, was that you who posted the joke about the scientist and God having a "creation contest"? It was excellent, with a subtle point made regarding this topic.... Q

 

[asutickler]

Nope, I don't think that was me... Most of my jokes are really not fit for mixed company, and have no underlying subtle point. 😛 Besides, before a little while ago, I hadn't posted a whole lot on here. I'm trying to make up for it now, though! Junior Standing, here I come!


ASUTickler

 

[qjakal]

Hmmm...

Alrighty...then apologies to whomever posted it....basically it came down to having a creation contest, and they both scooped up a handful of dirt to use, whereupon God turned to the scientist and said "Hey...get your own dirt!". Subtle yet poignant statement, no?

 

[asutickler]

Ha! That's a good one!

Here's one I heard a while ago:

Jesus, Moses and God were out playing golf one day. Jesus teed off first, and the ball flew straight over the fairway, landed in the green and rolled to within a couple feet of the hole. Moses hit second, and his ball also soared and landed close to the hole. Both looked over at God. God took a few practice swings, then let loose on his ball. The ball flew off into the rough. Just then, a squirrel jumped over, grabbed the ball in his mouth and started running across the fairway. An eagle swooped down and grabbed the squirrel in its claws, but before it could get too far, a bolt of lightning struck the bird. The ball fell and a sudden gust of wind dropped it directly into the hole.

Jesus glared at God and said: "Hey, are you here to play golf or just screw around?"


ASUTickler

 

[Tickler2001]

Re: Re: The unknown, scary stuff!!

I'm not claiming to have the answers either. I'm just stating that the possibility that there is a supreme being is equally as valid as the possibility that there is not. Yes, no one has actually proven the existence of God. However, no one has DISproven the existsnce of God, either. Until someone does, your disbeliefs are every bit as much "fairytales" as my beliefs are.

BTW, there is no way that technology will come to the point that the human race will know absolutely everything about everything. That is just plain illogical. On a positive note, though, we'll all get to find out who's right someday on the whole God issue. And remember: If I'm right and we're all in an eternal paradise somewhere, I'm never going to let you "live" it down! 😛


ASUTickler

You have this a little wrong.
I don't have to prove that god doesn't exist. I'm not the one bringing forth the theory to explain the unknown. I accept the unknown for what it is, a bunch of questions that are unanswerable at this point.

god is nothing but a story put forth to explain the unknown. Its up to the believers to prove the story true. Which they can't because its just an interesting story. Once again its not up to me to disprove it.

I'm not offering a theory, everyone assumes that all non-believers subscribe to the Big Bang theory. It can't be proven either, its more or less a guess as well, although it has more theory behind it than a god created the universe.

I'm more Agnostic than athiest. I can accept the fact that existence can't be explained at this point and leave it at that. That is too scary to some people so they subscribe to a religion to keep from driving themselves insane.

Actually we won't ever get to find out the answers because when we die we will be dead and thats that. If you are dead you won't know that I'm rightand you didn't go to heaven.

So I guess either way the believers get the last laugh!😀

 

[Strelnikov]

Policy

The official explanation for why bad things happen to good people:

"The Almighty sometimes finds it necessary to do things in His official capacity that, privately, He deplores."

Strelnikov

 

[Strelnikov]

BTW, those interested will find the OTHER long religious thread on the Tickling Discussion forum. I've just moved it back up to the top.

Strelnikov

 

[quinn65]

Wow, keeping up with this board is a full time job. I need to take a day off this week just to catch up on the related thread Strelnikov bumped up in the other forum. 🙂 Impressive group, this.

Anyway, one quick point in response to redway and Tickler2001. I don't understand the emphasis on *proving* that God exists. As others have said, there is a knowable reality out there, and we're improving regularly on our dialectic ability to describe it perfectly, BUT the "perfect" description is like a function with an asymptote -- we'll approach it, but never reach it. We are suspended in language and perception. But only at that (unreachable) level would we know for *certain* whether or not God exists. It ain't gonna happen.

Besides, proving God's existence beyond all doubt would completely undermine the idea of faith. Religious faith requires one to believe in something unprovable with the same strength of conviction that we believe we're reading this board. If you remove the need for that strength of conviction, you remove the basis of faith.

(Maybe qjakal or someone remembers which Hitchhiker book it was where God, upon proving himself to exist, disappeared in a puff of logic.)

Asutickler's right -- the hypothesis that God exists is just as tenable based on all we know as the one that he doesn't. And guess what, we'll never know enough to be sure either way. You either have faith, or you don't. The interesting stuff comes after -- namely, what does faith or a lack of it imply about morals? This is where I need to go read that other thread...

 

[Tickler2001]

Shifting gears!!

Its not the believing in a "higher being" that really bugs me, its the people that dedicate their entire life to the teachings of the bible that make me giggle. The people that preach the crap about all non-believers of the Catholic faith burning in hell stirs me to the point of anger.
They choose to believe in a book of short stories that has absolutely no proof to back it up and then try and get me to have the same ridiculous blind faith that they have.🙄

I said it before faith is for fools.

Quinn, I like the question you posed about the relationship of morals to religion. This irks me too. 😀
The christian fanatics tell us that we are immoral if we don't subscribe to their faith. This is ridiculous. I lead a good life, people that give me respect get it right back. I live just as sin-free of a life as the average Catholic. I do this because of my belief of right and wrong, I answer to my own conscience, I live right because I want to not because I fear the wrath of a higher being.

My statements in this thread aren't necessarily directed towards everyone who believes in a higher being. I respect believers like ASU.

What gets me wryled up are people who make comments like: this country needs to get back living Catholic lives, we should have more religion in schools and government> Give me a break, we can all learn to be good people without being threatened that we will go to hell.

Religion is the cause of the war we fight right now, it is the cause of just about every war in history.

Just maybe its time to get religion out of our lives so the killing will stop, not the other way around.

 

[quinn65]

I'm an atheist, tickler2001, so we agree conceptually. But why ridicule religion? Check earlier in the thread for strong arguments that the Bible isn't intended literally, and that we lack the tools to *prove* whether God exists (thus validating the need for faith). I believe this is a case where reasonable people can believe in some interpretation of the Bible and also have faith in God without being empirically "foolish."

I'm right with you regarding those who would try to force their religious views on others through legal means. As for those who attempt to do it by just getting in your face, well, either obliterate them in debate or just walk away.

I don't see much if any of the "force it on you" school of thought among the (remaining) active posters here.

Final point: Religion doesn't cause wars, people do.

 

[qjakal]

Merge?

This thread should probably merge with the one going in the tickling section at some point? Q

 

[Tickler2001]

Quinn,

I prety much agree with you on 90% of your thoughts, I'm just having trouble getting my actual thoughts in the messages.
I tried to state before that my harsh comments are directed to the "fanatics", not all believers. I know there are some lurkers on this thread who aren't posting, my comments are directed at some of them.

Your right religion doesn't "cause" wars, but the wars are usually about religion.

 

[Strelnikov]

Atheists

The West has been Christian since the 4th Century AD. By now, there's no way to dissociate Christian thought from Western thought. It permeates our whole society.

I'm always amused to see pugnacious atheists say, "I don't need a god! I'm a good guy, and I did it all myself!" Sorry friend - no you didn't. You cribbed from 1600 years of philosophical tradition, Christian in origin.

Strelnikov

 

[asutickler]

🙂 I know it's been said previously by someone else, but I just want to say it, too: It amazes me that here, in a place which I come to for a completely different reason, I would find somewhere to mull/discuss/argue a veritable myriad (sorry, intentional pun 😉 ) of topics in an intense yet friendly manner with so many diverse and intelligent people... I don't know if anyone else has ever ventured into the Yahoo messageboards about politics, religion, etc.- but they are a bonified zoo of flamers and lunatics. Long live the TMF!

All right, now to quickly catch up before heading to read that REALLY long thread...

Tickler2001 said
*You have this a little wrong. I don't have to prove that god doesn't exist. I'm not the one bringing forth the theory to explain the unknown. I accept the unknown for what it is, a bunch of questions that are unanswerable at this point.*
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You actually did bring forth a theory. You've basically stated that you don't know how to explain the unknown, but that a higher power can't be the solution. Stating that something cannot be caused by something else is as much of a hypothesis as stating that it can.


Tickler2001 said
*I'm not offering a theory, everyone assumes that all non-believers subscribe to the Big Bang theory. It can't be proven either, its more or less a guess as well, although it has more theory behind it than a god created the universe.*
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I'm a believer, but I subscribe to the Big Bang Theory, too. It seems to make sense. 😀 Maybe God sneezed...


Tickler2001 said
The people that preach the crap about all non-believers of the Catholic faith burning in hell stirs me to the point of anger.
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You and me both, man. I'm not Catholic, (Lutheran) so we'll be burning together... Then again, there'll be a WHOLE lot of supermodels, porn starlets, actresses, etc. down there to keep us company, so it won't be THAT bad. 🙂

Then again, there are some of my semi-fellow Lutherans (different Synods) who think that all Catholics are going to hell. They seem to feel the urge to keep nailing Martin Luther's 95 theses to the proverbial church door, day after day... My best friend is Catholic, and we get along just fine. There are both normal people and nuts in every denomination. Unfortunately the nuts are louder than the rest of us... 😛


Tickler2001 said
The christian fanatics tell us that we are immoral if we don't subscribe to their faith. This is ridiculous. I lead a good life, people that give me respect get it right back. I live just as sin-free of a life as the average Catholic.
--------------------------------------------------


IMHO, if God created the universe, Earth, and human beings (by whatever method, evolution and the Big Bang, probably) he certainly didn't do it just so he could send the vast majority of people straight to hell. That would be just nasty. The Bible says over and over that we're God's "children." Other religious texts make similar assertions. What sort of being would send their own children to eternal damnation? Let alone for something so terribly minor when compared to the outright evil in the world.


ASUTickler

 

[Tickler2001]

ASU,

I respect your intelligent open minded comments.
But I still think you need to prove it not me 😀

Strel,

"I'm always amused to see pugnacious atheists say, "I don't need a god! I'm a good guy, and I did it all myself!" Sorry friend - no you didn't. You cribbed from 1600 years of philosophical tradition, Christian in origin."

This is the biggest pile of arrogant christian monkey crap I have ever heard.

 

[guitman69]

Hello all, I got into this thread kind of late. I usually ignore the messages posted by Scott, but this one piqued my curiosity. Once I started reading it I couldn't stop. This is going to be a little confusing because a lot of different ideas came up that I want to comment about over the course of this thread.

First of all, let me say that I am an athiest. I was raised Mormon and was a big believer when I was a kid. When I first changed my beliefs, I felt like everyone who believed in God was foolish. It's a very similar condition that people who convert to a faith go through. I thought that the conclusion that I made is the only correct way to think, and that everyone else is simply wrong or misguided.

My first comment is to the question of can a non-religeous person be moral. I personally think they are more moral. A truly moral person acts they way they do because of an internalized sense of right and wrong, and not from fear of punishment. It doesn't matter from what source your morals come from (Religion or Society), or from where the punishment may come from (God or Government). As a point (even though it might not truely fit) who is a safer driver? Someone who deosn't speed because they know it's not safe, or someone afraid of getting a ticket.

Now, as for all the references to the story of "The Garden of Eden". I took a world religion class in college some years ago, I highly recomend a class like this to everyone. Especially when you study your own religion in the class. It brings many things into perspective when you see how outsiders might view your beliefs. Anyway, my instructor in the class told us that most theologens (sp), poeple who study the bible for a living (and who do it with an acedemic mindset), do not believe that is a statement of fact. They believe that it is a story about the wages of sin. That is one of the reasons why the creation happens twice in Genesis. As the story was revised over the generations, it was written down again.

And finally, to Redway. Just to add to quinn's point about not taking the Bible too literally: It is commonly recognized by people who have studied the Bible, the of the four gosples (the four books of the New Testement that speak of Jesus' life), Paul's is the most accurate. Here's the problem though, Paul lived a good 75 years after Jesus died.