Right to an opinion vs right to an Equally Weighted opinion: Rant

[Biscuit]

First of all,

Ayla,

I can just imagine you sucking down a Mocha Latte with a paintbrush behind your ear, listening to some tribal chants while burning incense. 😉. That's the picture that comes to MY mind, Q...

I wasn't actually trying to suggest that the uninformed should be shot, but just that the politicians and other leaders should stop forcing the nuts and bolts people to try to come to terms with the public one on one. That's what PR types are for (watch some Spin City!).

Evilone,

I think the media is much more the problem than the pundits and commentators. After all, just about anyone will take offered airtime. What bothers me is that many of these people ARE forced to appear in these forums by politicians and Spin Doctors with no idea of just how critical their work is. People in these fields should be allowed to do their job, and they should use the PR people for what they're paid to do, present the material. But THEY never seem to appear on the damned talk shows, do they?

In other words, people in certain fields are often dragged into these forums whether they want to be there or not, by circumstance, funding, Congress, Executive decision, etc. It seems to me that the only people who are truly glad, happy, and excited to be there are those with Nothing Better to Do!

I appreciate your both taking the time to answer, somehow I just knew that No women would agree with me (now how's THAT for a provocative statement!). They never seem to, in any area of my life 🙁 😉.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum.

PS I will drop this eventually, promise!

 

[Blackrook]

Bias & Ideology and the Value of an Opinion

I agree in general with the flow of the discussion. Not all opinions are created equal. Nor should less authoritative opinions be treated as heavily as more authoritative ones (agree with Myriads though about the value of less informed opinions creating incentives for authorities to work harder). But what about bias and ideology? I can think of very experienced and less experienced people and often find myself valuing the less experienced person's opinion because he is less ideological and dogmatic. His mind is more open to new knowledge and experience than "the authority". I can listen to either a PhD candidate in economics or Milton Friedman on public economics. I might learn more from the PhD candidate because Friedman in spite of all he has done academically is at heart an ideologue. The PhD candidate may have a fresher perspective. Just my two cents.

 

[MN Tikl]

Biscuit -- that's *Minnesota* Tikl to you sir! And MY Governor can mangle syntax better than YOUR governor!

I've got an idea: we should start a new thread for the sole purpose of describing each of our visions of Ayla, as she types on her computer! When I saw the competing imageries flying about, I was going to sit down and write a magnum opus dedicated solely to describing *my* image of Ayla, sitting in front of her computer, responding to this thread, but (as somebody already wrote here) it would have been the longest one yet, and I type slow. Perhaps everybody on the forum could chip in .50 and we could buy Ayla a web cam instead.

 

[kurchatovium]

I think Biscuit has hit upon something here. I would add as well the problem today is that often the people we here from are not really experts we should be hearing from. The media tends to weight more in favor of those people whose opinions are politically correct rather than those who have actual knowledge. For me I always consider the source. If Ted Danson tells me the worlds oceans are in trouble I pay him no attention. Now if Jacques Cousteau tells me the worlds oceans are in trouble I listen. If Jacques starts giving advice on how to come up with a funny sitcom then I stop listening.

Anybody can have an opinion. Any crackpot can come up with an ideal or thought. I don't really have time to listen to them all. So rightly or wrongly I do tend to weed those out I feel don't have any knowledge in that specific area. Thats just my two cents though.

 

[Ayla ny]

Biscuit, Q 😛 ! *hiding my copy of Kerouac's 'On the Road' under my chair*

ps save your money... I already have a webcam 😛 😛 lol

 

[Ayla ny]

entirely too many capital letters...

 

[Strelnikov]

This ground has been plowed pretty well, but maybe I can add a little around the fringes.

If a body of knowledge is a real science, practitioners will have deduced basic principles from observation, and will then be able to predict likely outcomes for specific courses of action. In the case of technical, medical or scientific fields, it's fairly easy to tell who has expertise and who just has a big mouth and an ax to grind. Psychology is different, or we wouldn't have the number of shambling wrecks living under bridges that we do despite "enlightened" treatment policies. The so-called Political and Social Sciences are worse - 30 years of social engineering by the Establishment Left has almost invariably had results opposite of what they predicted.

Public debate is a good idea. It's too bad that it has to be conducted largely through channels provided by the establishment media, because they skew the result by favoring the politically correct side, regardless of fact. Example: Self-appointed advocates for The Homeless claim that there are 8 million of them, a claim seldom questioned in the media. That makes Homelessness a Crisis worthy of Action. The facts, according to the National Urban League (no bastion of Reaganite conservatism) is that there are actually about 800,000 of them, that half are winos and junkies, and that most of the rest are mentally ill, booted out onto the street because of "enlightened" policies of "de-institutionalization". The overall percentage of the US population is the same as it has always been, the Crisis is actually a minor problem in delivering social services.

Don't bother to discuss expertise versus bullshit in politics. A wise man once said that the secret to success inside a political party, is the ability to sit quietly and to all appearances attentively while foolish people spout nonsense.

Strelnikov

 

[Oddjob0226]

Man, Biscuit, you put into words so well a great argument - the right to an opinion being equal to a equally weighted, educated opinion from someone with actual experience....

Similar to that thought ( not excatly the same..) is something that is bugging me. We used to have the right just to, well, "ignore stuff", and go on with our lives. Now days, it seems that if an action is committed, an opinion or idea is voiced, a suggestion made, or, more often than not, a remark that could be taken as offensive is made, that someone - more often MANY people feel that they not only have the DUTY to speak out in response about whatever remark/action/opinion was made, but that their response must have some kind of action followed up upon, even thought the original remark/thought/opinion had no real effect or result other than to get others talking ..... sorry, is that confusing? What I mean is, when someone said something either very stupid, or perhaps brilliant but controversial, 10-20 years agho most people just went on about there lives. The remark/action/opinion really didn't effect how we lived, whether we paid our rent that month, didn't prematurely age us, wasn't an immediate threat to us; in general, if it didn't really affect anyone's life no one spoke up in response and certainly no one expected any change of course in anyone's life. People just ignored stuff that was innoccuous in the long run, or just didn't seem to matter. But now, if you express an opinion/remark/idea, well informed or not, it seems everyone else will make it their duty to forcebly have their opinion heard AND to make that opinion have some sort of eventaul action.. as if their opinion was weightier than the original one. Sorry if this reads unclear...but, basically, if you notice, as I do, that everyone seems to have an opinion about everything and they all think their opinion should be heard and acted upon, even though 90% of the time it's all about stuff that doesn't matter... well, that drives me crazy.

 

[shark]

You're right oddjob. That is because so many people are now so "sensitive " and "aware" .....more PC bull at work. There is nothing wrohg with having an opinion, but it would help if one knew what they were talking about before they expected others to take their opinion seriously. As we have seen on these forums,not everyone will agree with everyone else or anything that is said, but having information to back up an opinion is never a bad thing to have available.

 

[Marauder]

Um, I agree with your rant, Biscuit. I can't really add anything - I personally love to shoot my mouth about everything I have a vague idea about, and I often come across as an unsufferable smart-ass, but I know better than to assume my thought to be ultima ratio. And I know by heart the feeling of having people contradict me with some trivial knowledge in fields that I excell in, due to long years of study. Discussions are my bread and butter, but every participant should be ready to yield when it becomes clear that their point is ill-researched, unfounded, already obsolete due to past discoveries or developements, or just plain wrong. The problem, IMHO, is not so much that opinions are equally weighted, but that most people have forgotten the goal of almost every discussion - reaching a compromise. If nobody wishes to stray from their point of view, a discussion is fruitless to begin with.

See? You heard from the Pirate 😀

 

[JoBelle]

2 more cents

The acceptance of the "expert opinion" as equally as the "expert" is the part that boggles. Forgive me for simplifying. To me, the armchair judge, hero, wizard, or what-have-you, has little to do with the actual perpetuation of this phenomena. The AUDIENCE is a more true culprit. Historically speaking, I think it's been the acceptance rather than the offering that has done the most damage. One could argue that a persuasive personality (be it lovely or less than so) is to blame. I would have to disagree. Hitler (thought very charismatic) could accomplish nothing if the followers didn't follow. (Just an example...not trying to piss off all those super sensitive neo-nazi types out there) 😉

There has ALWAYS been a rainmaker on the side of a dusty road selling mircales to farmers with dry land. A sense of desperation elevates the one among us with the most information on a topic. Give him access via tv or internet (for example) and everyone looking for a liquid miracle will find him and the rainmaker becomes an H2O savior. Increase the level of desperation and you see the increase of credibility of the "expert." Basically I'm saying this isn't a new aspect of our society...it's simply more prolific as communications have allowed.

I'm seeing something happen in the "normal" world that once mainly happened in the arts. The idea of the "primative" being on equal footing with the "educated." Natural ability, as one might, say has been easily accepted in the arts.
A prodigy (Can we say a young Mozart for arguments sake?), be they painter, pianist or singer was welcome and adored. BUT a prodigy in political issues?!?!? How? Does that not require tedious exploration of the working system? Does that not require an understanding of human nature? The societal response to terror? The ability to take part in the system?? How can a child do that? Not all adults do that. Not all adults have that knowledge. Hmmmmm....and itsn't it odd that those are the very people that seem to make the loudest comments? And those people that lack basic understanding or the will to learn are going to follow those they can relate to. Unfortunately.....like attracts like.

ok...realizing that I'm more than rambling at this point...thanks for letting me share.
Jo

 

[omega]

so where's katie?

I must admit that I have not completely read every "expert" posting in this thread. Actually it was kind of boring listening to all of you agree with each other 😀

You know, I usually have an opinion on most everything. I happen to think my opinion is usually right. So why hasn't Katie Couric knocked on my door to get my mostly right opinion? 🙄

 

[shark]

It might be because she is a leftist..........or just doesn't know you yet.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Und was hass Jobel against neo Nazis, ja?

 

[JoBelle]

me?? Nazis???

Und was hass Jobel against neo Nazis, ja?

They are just so damn WEEPY all the time...every time ya turn around they're cryin' about something!! Wah Wah Wah 🙄
Girly Nazis just suck.
Jo..hehe

 

[Oddjob0226]

Ach!

So true! We haff been found out! Life ist zo unfair!

( wait..is that accent German.. or French? Well, I'm sure SOMEBODY will protest and try to get me fired..... Sacre Bleu!)

 

[Cosmo_ac]

the opinion of an average guy...

I've watched this chat ever since it began. i was curiouse to see what other people would write and how they felt. I'll be honest, when this post first came out, it bugged me. Not because i felt it wrong, but because i knew it was right. I'm one of those people who does not like to hear that his opinion is not worth as much as another persons. It can very well be the truth, but it's a bitter pill to swallow at times. But, that is life. Reality is a harsh Mistress, who does not pull any punches.
Anoter thing about this post bugged me also though. While i admit, i don't know everybody who posted, i would say that i felt the majority of them, if not all, were people who are relatively more intelegent then the average person. People who indeed have Degree's, diplomas, and years of expereince with certain matters.
I felt that, being one who has no diploma, or years of life experience, i should say something for those who are like me. I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but here are my views on the subject.



We are the people that have no diplomas, or years of life experience. If we have an opinion though, let us speak it, with as much Passion, Integrity, and Dignity that you would let any man or woman of higher stature. If we are wrong, do not embarrass us, belittle us, or look down upon us. Instead, give us your wisdom, give us your experience, but above these, give us your patience. Do not silence us before we even speak. If you give us half an ear, you may find, although perhaps rarely or possibly only once in our entire lives, we may surprise you.
Sincerly, Cosmo_ac

 

[Oddjob0226]

Cosmo,

You bring up a good point...people who are "certified" as being smart and knowing something via a diploma....well, it ain't necissarily so!

If you have been involed deeply with something for quite some time, and are passionate about it, can back up whatever your thoughts and theories are, if whatever the subject is takes a major position in your life, you might not be a "certified" expert, but surely your opinion would count much more that someone who just has "a feeling" or and "idea." While a midwife might night be a full-fledged doctor, her opinion/knowledge on birthing will outway mine. Her training, experience and dedication to the cause makes he opinion more valid thatn just someone who thinks they know what birthing is all about. That person off the street has the right to an opinion, and the blessing, if you will of an uninformed opninion is potentially we could all learn something through looking through a new set of eyes. But I think the ultimate argument by Biscut was more about arrogance.... rude self centered people who insist that their opinion carry equal weight as someone who has actually dedicated a portion of their life, work, and studies to whatever the debate subject is.

 

[Strelnikov]

Re. Oddjob's rant about "ignoring stuff" vs. demanding action, the political establishment in this country have been playing divide-and-rule for a generation. What formerly was dealt with unofficially with a punch in the mouth, now requires Sensitivity Training and Diversity Workshops. These, of course, divide people further by accenting the differences between us.

A few years back, I happened to channel-surf into one of Slick Willie's Diversity Town Meetings on C-Span. As I tuned in, an irate Black woman was saying, "Last week some Asian kids called my son a Porch Monkey, and YOU PEOPLE need to get your minds right!" An irate Asian woman jumped up and said, "Last week some Black kids called MY son a Ching Chong Chinaman, so YOU PEOPLE are the ones causing the problem!" As I surfed away, I thought, gee, the critics are all wrong - kids still do learn the classics.

The main positive result of 9/11 is that most of us have decided that we're all on the same side. The whiners and race hustlers are keeping a low profile. Some that tried to continue business as usual were invited to sit down and shut up. Maybe there's hope for us yet.

Strelnikov

 

[Oddjob0226]

Kids are still learning the classics!? LOL!

I know a lot of people write LOL when they are not actually LingOL, but I read that and really, truly, I am LOL!

LOL!!!!!

 

[Strelnikov]

Intelligence and education don't always translate to expertise - they have to be relevant. Nobel Prize winner Paul Ehrlich made a fool of himself pushing vitamins and health food (he was a chemist). Nor do they necessarily translate to real-world skills. I've known engineers with advanced degrees who couldn't put air in a tire without hurting themselves. I've also known young graduates who were wizards at theoretical analysis, but couldn't design anything that works.

Fortunately, the last case is usually self-correcting over time. Best, as cosmo pointed out, is a combination of intelligence, education and experience.

Strelnikov

 

[shark]

Cosmo's post has alot of truth in it.I work in construction,where engineers set forth alot of the planning.I have worked with many guys who should have been engineers,and engineers who are so bad that one wonders how they got through school.
We are all involved in a massive "gray area",and it takes time to figure out what's best.Since many times that won't be agreed upon,all you can do is your best.

 

[Biscuit]

Strelnoika,

I have to agree with you, but also add that intelligence and education, while often equated, are VASTLY different things. I know many frankly stupid people who are very well educated. Why do you think feudalism is dead? A well-educated noble can be sure of having well-educated children, not necessarily of having pragmatic, resourceful, intelligent ones!

Practical knowledge, as you so adroitly pointed out, is something else again, and is often seen to be sorely lacking in the very intelligent. Honestly I think it's mostly because the mundane is so uninteresting to them that they prefer to leave it to the rest of us while they tackle theoretical physics in their underwear.

Luckily, I don't have this problem, not being particularly bright myself 😉.