Science and Religion

[Mash]

This thread was created to prevent the hijacking of another thread.

It's main purpose is to discuss any and all opinions or facts relating to Science and Religion.

 

[Mash]

No, he definately believed in gravity, although he did not attribute it to the initial formation of stars and planets. Instead he found something profound that even his superior intelect couldn't explain.

Well, thank you for arguing my point by throwing in vague answers and making no sense whatsoever.
It was almost exactly the same experience as arguing with an intoxicated, homeless preacher.

Man, if you want to argue something, you need to back it up with factual information. You cannot say, "Well, god exists because something happened to somebody, and nobody can explain what it was."

There are a lot of things we do not understand, but we've understood how planets form for quite some time now.

 

[Mash]

Sorry to lead you astray. I wasn't trying to argue the existence or non-existence of "God" at all. I really could care less about that. I was merely trying to bring out some lesser known scientific facts that many are unaware of. Much better if I just keep on topic.

Ah. I see. I thought you were implying that the formation of the planets was caused by an act of God.

 

[Mash]

That's just a completely inaccurate perspective of God. He doesn't demand worship because of a colossal inferiority complex; He does so because he knows that it will ultimately bring us joy to do so. It's very simple: be with Him, or be without Him. To be with Him will be so awe-inspiring that it will educe the praise from our lips and the worship from our lives. To be without Him will be absolute separation, which will by its very nature be total and utter agony. We currently live in a state of "common grace" where, to paraphrase the Scripture, He makes the sun shine on the just and the unjust alike. Eventually, that won't be the case. God isn't a tyrannical despot whose aim is establish dominion and keep the serfs in their place; He's a loving father who sets up boundaries because He loves His children.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to remain civil in this discussion, and I hope you have found me the same. I get your objections, I really do, but in the end, God has done so much for my life that I really have no complaint against Him. Strange as it sounds, most of my friends are atheists, and they respect my views, as I do theirs since I can't disprove them anymore than they can disprove me. They don't consider me "mentally ill" for having faith, and I don't treat them as being in a state of denial either.

Well, the thing is, we will probably never be able to totally prove or disprove the existence of a god. It seems absolutely unlikely that such a thing will ever be possible. Now, since that's the case, there's no point believing on it based on what can be disproved.

However, there are aspects of Atheism that have been proven true time and time again. We have an understanding now of how stars form, how planets form, and other astronomical bodies; there is nothing magical about it, and we understand now that it is simply the laws of physics coming into play. All through history we have seen examples of organized religion being slapped in the face by scientific discoveries that they previously attributed to the work of god, when in fact it was caused by the Earth's rotation around the sun, or maybe it was caused by a buildup of pressure in the Earth's mantle. I have no doubts that we will continue making discoveries in quite the same manner, proving more and more of atheism to be true.

Now, that's not necessarily proof that there isn't a god, but it IS proof that your current perception of 'God' is skewed, or perhaps even wrong altogether. I find that most organized religion is rather arrogant to claim to have the knowledge of what they believe to be the 'most powerful' being(s) in the Universe. Atheists claim to have knowledge of the provable, not the infinitely unknowable; and THAT is why I'm an Atheist.

 

[likeasong1]

I can completely understand that. I understand why some "pray" the following, "Oh Lord, save me from your followers."

By the same token, I have continued to hear of things such as M-theory... while the math is way over my head, the basic gist involves invasion of our dimension by matter of another dimension. Well, where did those other dimensions come from, etc.? Science keeps coming up with more questions than it does answers, which will almost certainly never disprove the existence of God.

Ultimately, I also don't think it's nearly as important to figure out where we came from as I do where we're going. But I don't appreciate being called "mentally ill" for my faith any more than you do "doomed" for not having it.

 

[Mash]

It sounds like you are more agnostic than atheist. At least you're keeping your mind open to possibilities. If you don't know if there is a God, do you believe in LIFE or consciousness ? Do you believe you are Self-Aware? Or do you think the universe is dead, inert and void of any intelligence. What part of "God"are you unsure of ? If its the Dogma god of the bible, then I agree with you, but you can't be as naiive to think there isn't a higher force at work in nature or the universe.

No, I'm an Atheist. There is a difference between believing and knowing, and many of the religious types can't seem to understand that difference. I believe that there is no God, however I do not KNOW that there is no God.

As far as we know, the Universe is void of any intelligence, however considering the size of the Universe, there very well could be. The Universe however, is very far from dead. Cosmic events happen all the time.

The term "God" is an idea. We cannot see god, we cannot hear god, we cannot feel god. He does not exist in a form that we can interact with, so he is nothing more than an idea.
Of course there are higher forces in the Galaxy and the Universe. Those ARE the bigger forces. If you could comprehend just how big the universe is, then you would understand just how absolutely insignificant our species is in the grand scheme of things. If we weren't here, the Universe would still exist, and nothing at all would have changed. Humans are a byproduct of a chain of cosmic events. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Mash]

Then you believe you are NOT intelligent, afterall you are in the universe.
Am I understanding this correctly?

Oops. That would be my mistake. As far as we know the Universe is void of any sentient beings aside from Humans.

 

[Mash]

The animal kingdom is not sentient? Even a clam is sentient, as it knows when to pull in its"foot"in when needed.It doesn't have the same sentienal space we have but it reacts. LIFE and conscious awareness is everywhere, even in space. The famous Physicist/Astronomer Sir James Jeans was quoted as saying, "The universe appears more like a great thought than a machine"
How are you so sure intelligence and consciousness is limited when most scientists aren't?

It reacts based on instinctual signs, not based on self-awareness. A bear does not wake up in the morning and suddenly decide that it's going to practice calculus. Conscious awareness does not exist in non-organic objects such as dust and ice.

An asteroid flying through space does not have the conscious awareness to comprehend what it is, or what it will ever be, and neither does any animal or plant below human-level intelligence.

I don't know off the top of my head what the technical definition of sentience is, but I do know that Human beings are the only known life form in the Universe that can comprehend our own existence.

I don't think consciousness is limited, nor do I think it's unlimited. I think consciousness is what it is; limited to our species, as far as we know.

 

[Mash]

Absolutely False, and you won't find a single scientist on the planet to agree with you. If you have a Dog,tell me its not conscious.Tell me its not looking back at you and knows who you are.
Without Consciousness, nothing and I mean Nothing can exist. Science is perfectly clear on this. There have been thousands of experiments,and without consciousness atoms will not coelese in the same place, matter does not exist without it.
If every being is not conscious to some minor degree, it can not belong or act in the physical world.

Maybe I'm not thinking of the proper definition of consciousness, but I have always considered consciousness "the cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation".

Now, it is debatable whether or not animals have a 'consciousness. If we go by my perception of consciousness, then animals are only aware of themselves to a degree, but I find it unlikely that they can really comprehend their situation. Do you think that they understand that they're a composition of atoms and molecules that is absolutely insignificant when compared to the rest of the universe? I find it unlikely.

Now, a dog may recognize it's owner, but can it comprehend what it's owner is? Does it think about the actions of it's owner? Of course not. It knows that it's owner gives it food and belly rubs. It's the same thing with any animal; they like good things, and don't like bad things. If they can get free food, then damnit, they're going to jump at the chance to get free food.

 

[Mash]

A Dogs conscious space is smaller, its intellect is smaller and its own sense of the world is different than ours, but it is still a sentient being with consciousness. It needs to have Consciousness, otherwise it can't exist and act in the physical world. Science is substantialy clear on this..

There are plenty of things that exist and act in the physical world that don't have consciousnesses.
Plants, for one. You think Tree's maintain a thought process when they're pumping out oxygen? What about bacteria? The little microscopic things interact with the world in a disastrous way and they most certainly don't have a consciousness of any sort. Jellyfish? They have nerve endings, but I don't think they really have what we would call a brain.

Life can exist without having a consciousness. I hate to say it, but the fact that you said that Science says that life can't exist without a consciousness leads me to believe that you don't have a full understanding on what you're talking about.

 

[PurpleStyle]

No, he definately believed in gravity, although he did not attribute it to the initial formation of stars and planets. Instead he found something profound that even his superior intelect couldn't explain.

I must apologize before I say this, I mean no offense, but...

...GOOD. FUCKING. LORD. Your ineptitude concerning science and history knows no bounds.

You do realize that General Relativity is what explains the curvature of space-time around an object (GRAVITY), do you not? In fact, Einstein proved this by predicting that due to the extreme gravity of the sun, we would be able to see stars hidden behind the sun during a solar eclipse. How could you not know this?

Everything has a form of energy/ consciousness.The whole universe is self-aware. Everything is vibrating at different freqencies,even rocks and trees.
If you don't think you need consciousness to have matter, look up "The measurement problem".

DOH! Are you honestly trying to compare wavefunction collapse to consciousness? You think directly observing electrons causes them to "decide" to act like matter, or a wave, instead of both? It's amazing, because everything you seem to "know" about the universe has no basis in reality, or outright contradicts known observed phenomena. How do you reconcile this with science being able to make things that function based on the principles of observed phenomena; like computers? Airplanes? Telephones? Televisions? GPS Satellites? Rockets? Space shuttles? Etc, etc, etc.

If we don't have an understanding of gravity and it's relation with space-time, how do we regularly send objects into space, and onto far away planets? Seriously, you need to stop talking about things you clearly don't understand. Bullshit like that is what's wrong with society today.

 

[Mash]

Rocks do not have consciousness. Trees are not self-aware. Both of these things lack any measure of intelligence.

Yes, most things have energy however, energy is not synonymous to consciousness. The only vibrating that these things are doing is the vibrating of their atoms depending on how hot or cold said object is.

 

[PurpleStyle]

Can you guys move the debate on the universal overmind to another thread? Its bad enough that caplock Hitler is summoned to the main page every time, and then there's a thread jack. I've never liked it, it usually becomes a secular devil reference instead of viewing that time period as a human tragedy. Best to start a new thread: Einstein said rocks have consciousness! Discuss! And then Mash & Purple can smackdown pedi.

/figured I could just say whatever I felt like saying, looking at the devolution of the thread. If devolution is a word...

You've no need, anybody with eyes would see that I smacked him down with a single post. My job here is finished. :lol Anything else he has to say will stand as a monument to his inability to twist the truth.

Absolutely not! You are nowhere NEAR as bad as The Worst Tyrant In History! Why would you think you are? (Sorry for my long rants, but this topic opened The Big Can Of Worms for me...)

I saw a good bumper sticker; "If they can make you believe an absurdity, they can make you commit an atrocity"

Well, the idea that your paltry little sins (or mine) are equal to mass murder, turning Germany into a giant prison for over a decade, and starting the biggest war in History- it's an ABSURDITY to think you're that bad. The only 'atrocity' you're likely to commit is like the 'atrocities' I committed against myself and my own life for so long by believing absurd doctrines like this one.

Didn't Mao Ze Dong kill over 50,000,000?

 

[MistressValerie1]

Moved from the Hitler thread.

 

[sadi]

Curious to know how long this thread will survive...

All who 'know' me likely - definitely - know my views on this matter, but I'l leave it at that. There's no justified 'reason' to get angry over nothing and waste my time in an honestly pointless conversation/discussion/debate/argument/whatever else it will end up degrading into.


When you think about it, all of us are here, at an adult tickling fetish website. Given the nature of this site, I highly doubt any amount of proselytizing, arguing, harassing, badgering, or accusing is going to really change anyone's spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof).

 

[melanie2]

How can you be sure trees aren't self aware? They are living, they die like other species.

 

[SupportGunner]

Atheism:

The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything suddenly rearranged for no reason into self-replicating bits that then turned into living beings.

Seriously, I find both creationists and atheists equally childish. I mean, sure, there might be a god and maybe not, why argue about it?

Were here, some are queer, just live with it, god dammit.

 

[Mash]

Yes, its incredibly hard to accept the idea of things like trees and rocks to be self-aware, but the reality is they are a part of consciousness. Consciousness is a non-physical, digital information system that moves through all things and binds reality together. Think of it like software in your computer.

The problem with your theory is that non-organic materials do not behave in a similar way to organic materials. They do not grow. They do not move by themselves. If everything had a consciousness, then NOTHING would be predictable. To quote Ariel, "Science wouldn't work". If you cannot replicate result in the exact same way without changing variables, then you can't have science. That is called chaos.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

You guys better start behaving or else your both going to wait in the car...

 

[Mash]

But Moooooooom!!!

 

[Mash]

You're forgetting, there are no organic or inorganic materials. Its digital, its information and its holographic consciousness.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a scientific response. I suggest you take a left turn out of the Kingdom of Narnia and head on back to the real world, my friend.

 

[likeasong1]

Yeah, that kinda sounds like Plato meets Neo. I have no freggin' clue what that all means, either, though I do detect tones of thought from the final chapter or three from The Last Battle

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

You both belong in trees. Your nuts.

 

[PurpleStyle]

Purple, I don't know what I did to provoke such vile hatred from you, but what ever it was , I'm truely sorry. Just because my world view and my understanding of science differs from yours, you shouldn't take offence to it.

Anyhow, Who cares? I'm not writing any science journals or doing any scientific publications to the masses. I'm not at all a scientist! I'm just challenging some new scientific ideas that I've not only reseached, but personally experienced.

As you can tell ,they are so new that I don't have a complete grasp on them yet, and I have difficulty trying to relate those ideas without stumbling.
Thats why it is so important to me to debate these new ideas with others and when someone brings up a good point, I talk to scientists in the field and re-reseach what I've learned.I'm just learning a brand new state of the art way of percieving the universe.I don't feel this is a "wrestling match" as it is more like an opportunity for all to learn.

No hatred. When people spout nonsense, I have the right to tell them how incredibly wrong they are. So, I've taken the liberty of highlighting the only honest thing you've ever said on this forum. Opportunity to learn, indeed. Learn that you are insane.

 

[Mash]

Its a shame Purple,you're such a promising young mind, but you're stuck in the 18th century, and you simply rufuse to believe that the world is NOT flat.

You are definitely a troll.