Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer

[luv2bt&tickled]

Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer

Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer

are not allowed in most public schools anymore

because the word "God" is mentioned....

a kid in Arizona wrote the attached


NEW School prayer.


Now I sit me down in school


Where praying is against the rule


For this great nation under God


Finds mention of Him very odd.


If Scripture now the class recites,


It violates the Bill of Rights.


And anytime my head I bow


Becomes a Federal matter now.


Our hair can be purple, orange or green,


That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.


The law is specific, the law is precise.


Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.


For praying in a public hall


Might offend someone with no faith at all.


In silence alone we must meditate,


God's name is prohibited by the state.


We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,


And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.


They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.


To quote the Good Book makes me liable.


We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,


And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.


It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,


We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.


We can get our condoms and birth controls,


Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.


But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,


No word of God must reach this crowd.


It's scary here I must confess,


When chaos reigns the school's a mess.

So, Lord, this silent plea I make:


Should I be shot; My soul please take!



Amen


If you aren't ashamed to do this, please pass this on.


Jesus said, " If you are ashamed of me," I will be ashamed of you
before
my Father."

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Amen, Tracy

God Bless.

 

[venray]

Certainly gets the point across, my dear....😎

Ray

 

[maverick83]

IMHO...

Well, yes. I understand the message, here. But would one be punished for praying or saying the pledge of allegiance on one's own? Probably not. I should hope not, anyway. (I'm not all that clear on the specifications of this law) But why should schools be permitted to make students feel obligated to do either?

 

[amk714]

Re: IMHO...

Well, yes. I understand the message, here. But would one be punished for praying or saying the pledge of allegiance on one's own?

I also understand. But in public schools, there are religious students of different faiths, and some who aren't religious, like me. I suppose students could choose to not participate in prayer, just as no one can be forced to stand for the pledge, but there are plenty of private schools (where prayer is said before class) parents can send their children to. This doesn't mean that prayers can't be said on one's own. Also, the words "under God" weren't added to the pledge until 1954, when the Cold War and McCarthyism were at their peak. I do think the kid's a pretty good poet, however. 🙂

 

[Venus51099]

Amen Tracy! Thanks for this post! We say the pledge every day, those who do no wish to do so doesn't have to. It's that simple🙄

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Amen Tracy! Thanks for this post! We say the pledge every day, those who do no wish to do so doesn't have to. It's that simple🙄

But that's just it. It's not enough that the Athiests do not believe. They do not want you to have the right to believe, either.

They talk about people ramming God down their throats, but they do not seem to have a problem ramming Atheism down ours.

They want to turn us into The Athiest States of America, where religion or worship of any kind is not allowed or legal....kinda like China.

 

[omega]

Re: Re: IMHO...

I also understand. But in public schools, there are religious students of different faiths, and some who aren't religious, like me. I suppose students could choose to not participate in prayer, just as no one can be forced to stand for the pledge, but there are plenty of private schools (where prayer is said before class) parents can send their children to.

However this presents a problem. You get to have an education you want that is paid for by the taxpayers. People of faith who choose to send their kids to a private religious school pay for that school on top of paying the taxes for your education in the secular public school. To make this fair, every parent who sends their kids to a public school should also help pay for the private schools.

 

[sarlox]

Yes Tracy..thank you for the post 🙂 God Bless

Jeff

 

[peaches77]

Amen Tracy! God bless🙂

 

[maverick83]

But that's just it. It's not enough that the Athiests do not believe. They do not want you to have the right to believe, either.

They talk about people ramming God down their throats, but they do not seem to have a problem ramming Atheism down ours.

They want to turn us into The Athiest States of America, where religion or worship of any kind is not allowed or legal....kinda like China.

Well, you know, there are people like that in every religion. It is, by no means, limited to atheism. I myself am semi-atheistic, but I wouldn't think of trying to force my beliefs on people.

 

[Amnesiac]

Only for TickleMaster

I am going to create a slight breach of my usual etiquette and respond in what many of you (myself included) consider a brash reply. Let it be known, that this is directed at TickleMaster 750 and NO ONE ELSE.

"Okay, NOW you've pissed me off. It's one thing to have to deal with Christian rhetoric and agendas saturating every corner of this nation and beyond, but I have to hear you lamenting about being shut out? Puh-leease!
I was not raised atheist, I BECAME one of my own free will (y'know that little "thing" God supposedly gave us so we could voluntarily bend over for him?), and I did it in a CATHOLIC high school. No one FORCED me with subversive literature or brainwashing techniques, and I sure as hell didn't do it out of rebellion because no one oppressed me.
First of all, eliminating "God" from schools is NOT going to eradicate Christianity (no matter HOW MUCH I wish it could). You've dug yourselves in too deeply into EVERYTHING to be undone. And that is the other thing...you want to talk about atheists turning America into China? We're ATHEISTS, not COMMUNISTS! It is not a pre-requisite for any "membership" because there IS no "membership" in atheism.
You uber-Christians got a HELL of a lot of nerve to talk bout the "evils" of atheism! Look at you guys: first you butcher your way to Jerusalem in one of MANY crusades, then you take over the European sovereignty during the Dark Ages and rule with an iron hand; then you put the Holocaust to shame with the Spanish Inquisition, followed by one of your many rogue sects called the Puritans...what a fun bunch they were, circumcising and screwing their children's genitals to prevent masturbation and torturing their own people in a Witch Trial! And after that, it gets even better! The barbarous religious conversion of African slaves and the slaughter of untold numbers of Native Americans in the ultimate display of your arrogance: Manifest Destiny. Who the hell KNOWS how many abusive and fiendish families you;ve produced and how many serial killers owe their existence to your religion's doctrines. The LAST PLACE your beliefs belong in control is a public education system.

You've created an insatiable shopping season, a 40 day session of guilt and a holiday that turns alcohol consumption into a national pasttime! You OWN EVERYTHING! Give something back! The only reason you're in control in the first place is because you breed so f***ing prodigiously that you super-saturate the population with your sleeper agents and future foot soldiers.

...Not happy with the way I've grouped you all together? Good. Because I'm not happy with the way you've grouped US together. You say 'we don't ALL do that'? Well, neither do we do the things you accuse us of. At best, all we've done is told people there's no Santa Claus, reduced locker-room time at football games and tried to restore a historical credo to it's original state. I think we outweigh you in the non-atrocities-commiting department.

I think you think that without a strong Christian foundation in public schools that the kids will all become atheists, and that is bullshit. All it will do is give them the RIGHT to be atheists if they choose to be. But by placing your doctrines in schools while keeping the secularists out is stacking the deck to make them side with you, and THAT is what we won't tolerate because your trying to subvert personal choice; I don't want to compete for the religious beliefs of the youth of America, but I do want you to play fair.

You may care about their souls, but I care about their rights. You may say that my concerns are less important than yours, but I can say the same about your concerns. So that puts us at an impasse. Just trying to defend my end."

I will no doubt get serious backlash for this by several of the faithful. But, c'est la vie. I can only assure you that this was an attempt at provoking humility in a judgmental individual and not an attack on all of you (I know many Christians who are actually quite noble people). I know, that sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, but I am indeed, one of the most humble people you would ever meet...I'm just not a pushover, and I don't like it when others try to push other people around, especially when they lecture them while grinding their heels in.

That said, I'll end this exorbitantly long rant and return to my rational, rule-abiding self.

 

[ShiningIce]

I do not believe in religion. It is a construct of man. I believe in spirituality .

 

[Dragon321]

My 10 dollars

this is something i feel extremely strongly about, so i am going to risk incurring the wrath of Christians and Americans alike.

i completely agree with both Amnesiac and Shining Ice.

the Christians are the perpetrators of some of the most violent, sadistic, arbitrary and draconian eras, wars, inquisitions, excommunications, holy wars, purges, mass executions, auto-de-fe's,
and suppression of the furtherment of truth, justice and knowledge
that the world has ever seen. if Jesus were alive today, i ferverently believe that he would be not only a socialist, but a spiritualist as well. by socialist i do NOT mean communist, although there are similarities. communism, like christianity, was a doctrine that was for the benefit of humankind, which was perverted and twisted by the greediness, licentiousness and stupidity of humankind.

rather than being ashamed of your wretched past and begging the society of man for forgiveness your past injustices, your churches still continue in their plotting scheming and suppression to "further gods word".
you have spawned rednecks, the KKK, televangelists!!!! (death, death to the television godbringers!!!), blood and hellfire priests, and fat, corrupt bishops, arch deacons and others in the heirarchy.

and will someone PLEASE tell me what the HELL is going on when you Americans think your gods gift to everything!? you think you ALWAYS have god on your side!!!!!!

please note, to all those generous christians who follow what jesus said instead of arguing over 1 or 2 lines which popes probably altered
in the whateverth century, as well as to all those Americans who are tolerant, kind, understanding, and are a credit to the human race, i apologise profoundly for lumping you in with the rest of the group.
if this was a touch too evangelistic and bitter for some tastes, i simply think pwople need their faith tested from time to time, as well as a shock to the system...

 

[omega]

You know, I agree that my faith has to be tested. I need to make sure I get rid of any junk, anything that is contrary to Jesus. I agree that there are many, many terrible awful things that have been done in the name of Jesus. And, possibly, you could be right that it has been more than any caused by atheism.

But I do get tired of the rants about the evil of Christianity without any mention of the positive contributions of Christianity. Just to think about a few, Christianity is responsible for the end of slavery. If you disagree, then please tell me about William Wilberforce.

Christianity helped to bring about the end of forced child labour. Again, if you disagree please tell me about the start of the Sunday School movement. It eventually led to the creation of laws to protect children forced to labor under terrible conditions. If my memory from history books is correct, it was Christians in England who first started to teach poor children who worked. They would set up Sunday Schools where the children would be taught to read and write. If atheists are so much more caring and concerned about people, why wasn't it the atheists setting up these schools to educate the poor children?

In fact in the United States it was the Christians who first started schools and colleges. If atheism is so much better than Christianity why didn't they get going and get the first schools started? Why are so many more people helped through faith based relief organizations than through atheist relief groups?

 

[46and2]

Gently steps in to try and reason with the opposing mobs....

What I'm seeing alot of here is stereotyping and classification which has no bearing whatsoever on the thread. Now that both Atheists and Christians alike have been thoughourly offended maybe we can get back to being reasonable and rational human beings. I myself am a Christian although I'm unorthodox to some, being that I believe in what the written word of God (I'm talking about the most literal translations of the hebrew and greek) says and not the traditions of men and some of the mistranslated english versions (If you want to talk more about that we'll save it for another thread). If you look at history and the atrocities done in the name of God, there is nothing in the Bible that condones them, these weren't Christians (although they claimed they were), these were men who misused the bible and the name of God to establish and maintain their political power. That by no means makes the Bible or the folks who follow it evil (although I can't speak for all of them). Although it is true that atheists as a group have not done many of the charities that Christians have and do, that doesn't mean that there are not atheists who have done great things as individuals (Ben Franklin comes to mind). I have one more thing to say before getting back to the thread. Two phrases really made me shudder when I read them: "The Atheists", and "The Christians". Notice the use of the word "The". It's as if you've defined every characteristic of an individual do to what he believes happens when he dies....and to think we were okay with one another until we went and brought that nasty religon topic up.
Now...on to what the thread is about:
I believe all faiths should be accepted in a public school system. The student should be allowed to pray if they want and talk about their beliefs if they so choose. I think taking out the pledge of alliegance is way too extreme. Besides there is no specification as to what "God" it is reffering to. One child could believe in Jesus while the other believes in an egyption sun God, and anyone should have the choice to sit down at there desk if they are niether patriotic or have a respective deity. Like maverick83 I'm not all that familiar with this particular law, but if it prohibits the rights of any one individual to pledge allegience or to pray then it is definitley a violation of rights. I'm sorry I rattled off so much but I felt I needed to say what I did. Take care everyone.
-Phil
(He quickly tries to run from out of the center of the two opposing mobs in hopes not getting trampled in the battle.)

 

[Amnesiac]

Calm Reasonable Post

Now that I have expressed my anger and listened to the replies, I can now post a response that is more calm and reasonable. I knew myself that I had gone extreme when I wrote my last post, so now I have the chance to be my usual self.

First off, 46and2 and omega are right.

The things they have said have merit and a poignant quality. So I can't argue with them on many points because most of it IS true: Most of the atrocities were committed by fascists and tyrants trying to run entire empires and most of us do have the unfortunate distinction of having generalized people with "The". I'm one of them. When you get yourself riled up, it is hard to avoid that.

OMEGA has a point in that Christ's philosophies are actually inarguable in intention. Christ paints a portrait of a way to live where people act responsibly, feel good about themselves and each other, and life can actually be rather pleasant. Even a warmonger like me can't argue with the tasty concepts of such a society.

And really, the major differences between atheists and the faitful are the concepts of human purpose, destiny and celestial aggregates. Considering that no one knows the irrefutable answers to these things, I'm content to leave it at an impasse rather than argue too much with it.

MY PROBLEM IS THIS.

Christ's teachings were contextualized with God. Because of this, humans are virtually incapable of interpreting Christian ideals without religious doctrines; they can't live the WAY without the RULES. And these rules are very strict, stringent and seem to encourage an existence where humanity is subservient and pleasure is a luxury to be enjoyed only at God's suffrance.

Normally this wouldn't be a problem for me for those people who want to live this way, but it REALLY turns my blood to fire when people force OTHERS to live the same way. Understand that Christian dogma (as we know it) basically contextualizes children as property and that they not only "belong" to the parents, but it is the parents duty to imprint Christian beliefs onto them; the belief imprinted that part of being a Christian is to "save" people. I know, this probably isn't what Christ had in mind, but it happens.

Basically, Christian beliefs today have become crusading; they forcibly try to deny birth control, psychologically condition people against certain sexual concepts and practices, and even ban literature that doesn't agree with their interpretations. If this activity was restricted to the believers only, I wouldn't mind, but these days, they are trying to make EVERYBODY live under those rules.

People are different so not all pleasures endorsed by the church are going to be enjoyed by everyone.

It only makes me angry because these activities, no matter how misguided, omega, DO have an impact on people, and their influence can sway people into believing things that might make their lives miserable. People who are comfrotable with religion will live that way and those who don't will live another and I'm okay with that. But at least they could try to let their children decide for themselves if Christianity is for them or not, or if Christianity with certain lifestyle concessions are okay rather than trying to mold their beliefs with impugnity from childhood.

I've met a lot of faithful people here who are noble and represent the best parts of Christianity (and GRR! do they irritate me, LOL) but in life I've met a lot who convince me by behavior that they only believe what they believe because its been drilled into their heads so deeply that it cannot be removed. THAT is why I get so angry because most people like that have not been given a choice without a strong bias being implanted beforehand. And THAT is what I'm against.

Other than the fascist tendencies of Christian politics, I guess there's nothing I can really argue about angrily...anything else falls into the category of philosophical hypothesizing, which I won't do here.

So, I'll end another horrible long-winded post and let others talk. Sheesh.

 

[46and2]

"Christ's teachings were contextualized with God. Because of this, humans are virtually incapable of interpreting Christian ideals without religious doctrines; they can't live the WAY without the RULES."

I wholeheartedly agree with you that there has to be rules. Everybody lives by a set of them. If you had good parents (and no not neccessarily christian ones) your taught what's right and wrong, and not to do the wrong thing. If your a parent I'm sure you teach your children in the same way. Everybody has a set of rules that they want to live by and no one can stick to them indefinitley, we all screw up sometimes. As far as "religous doctrines" are concerned: are you reffering to the written word of God (the bible) or are you reffering to the "add ons" that have been made by human beings? Traditions of men or what's written in the book?

"And these rules are very strict, stringent and seem to encourage an existence where humanity is subservient and pleasure is a luxury to be enjoyed only at God's suffrance."

Strict and stringent? Where in the bible does it say that you can't enjoy life? Let's do a run down of the some of the commandments. It's not the translation I prefer, but it's the one I have on my computer.):

1) "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."-This to me would be the toughest one, but if your going to commit to him why would you have any other God before him?

2) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"

So God says to take a day off..somehow I fail to see this as anything but a rule I am very happy to follow.

3)"Thou shalt not kill."-Although I must admit to being quite tempted on this one, especially at my last job.



4)"Thou shalt not commit to adultery".
Now the definition of adultery as it was 300-400 years ago (around the time the King James was written, that is the translation that I am quoting from, before it was revised it said "thou shalt not adulterate".)
adulter: "to corrupt, debase, adulterate."

adulterant: "that which adulterates, adulterating."

adulterate: "spurious, counterfeit, of base origin, or corrupted by base admixture." verb: "to render spurious or counterfeit ... by the admixture of baser ingredients."

adulterer: "one who adulterates, corrupts, or debases."

adulterous: "pertaining to, or characterized by, adulteration; spurious, counterfeit, adulterate.

Not what you thought it was? Most decent people don't like corruption and phoniness, I'd like to think. Hard rule to follow? For some I'd imagine.

5)"Thou shalt not steal."
I think most people would agree that theft is immoral, even legal theft.

6)"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
I've been on the recieving end of that one and it's no fun.

7)"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."
I tend to believe that these were written for my benefit and peace of mind as well as God's. Whom am I harming if I'm jealous? Only myself.

8)"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:"

Little bit of history: the jews were commonly sacraficed and tortured to appease idols.

Perhaps you can tell me the specific rules that you believe to be unfair, so I don't bore you to death. I left the other two out unless you specifically have a question about them.

"Normally this wouldn't be a problem for me for those people who want to live this way, but it REALLY turns my blood to fire when people force OTHERS to live the same way."

Again I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I can't keep apologizing for the way fundamentalists act, and the way misguided Christians bible thump (I hope you don't think that's what I'm doing because I'm not, I'm merley defending my faith).

"Understand that Christian dogma (as we know it) basically contextualizes children as property and that they not only "belong" to the parents, but it is the parents duty to imprint Christian beliefs onto them; the belief imprinted that part of being a Christian is to "save" people."

I don't recall where it specifically states that our children are our property, but we sure as Sheol are responsible for them. Nor does the bible teach us to brainwash them. It mereley teaches us to show them the truth that we know. If God wanted us to brainwash our children why would he give us free will? Now as far as "saved" is concerned know that there are three views of what the afterlife is outside of the Kingdom of God: 1)The most popular, well known, and terror inflicting eternal torment. 2)Anniliation 3)Salvation for all. Now I firmly believe in the third of these and if your interested to know why here is a webpage for you to learn: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
There are countless other articles on this website dealing with the subject.

"Basically, Christian beliefs today have become crusading; they forcibly try to deny birth control, psychologically condition people against certain sexual concepts and practices, and even ban literature that doesn't agree with their interpretations."
Again I'm done apologizing for fundamentalists. The literature: I take it your reffering to that whole "Harry Potter" fiasco, I loved the movies. You have a group of overzealous people whom have been taught through tradition and not scripture. As far as sexual practices go: in case you haven't noticed I'm on this forum with you.

"I've met a lot of faithful people here who are noble and represent the best parts of Christianity (and GRR! do they irritate me, LOL)"
I hope not too much.

😛

"but in life I've met a lot who convince me by behavior that they only believe what they believe because its been drilled into their heads so deeply that it cannot be removed. THAT is why I get so angry because most people like that have not been given a choice without a strong bias being implanted beforehand. And THAT is what I'm against."

I'm against that to, God wants us to love him out of our will alone, not mereley because our parents told us so. This is why being able to answers a child's questions is important, rather then shutting them down with "you'll go to hell if you do."

"Other than the fascist tendencies of Christian politics, I guess there's nothing I can really argue about angrily..."

Christian politics are not Christianity and guess what...you have my sincere apology for all the ways man has corrupted God's word and used it for corrupted purposes (there I apologised, but that's the only one your getting).

😛

Again I don't want you to think that I'm trying to bible thump you or change your point of view, I am merley attempting to communicate the reallity of what Christianity is and what people have tried to turn it into. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Have a nice evening.
-Phil

 

[Dragon321]

the rationalists funtastical escapade! really!

now that i have grabbed your attention with the title, i would like to not so much amend what i said earlier as to elaborate so i dont seem like such a misogynistic bigot.

i am in full agreement with the 10 commandments, as extrapolated and expanded by our friend 46 and 2. (why in gods name did you choose that internet handle? lol) they are all fair and decent, and are as much rules of convenience to society as they are religious doctrines. although i do have a problem about coveting thy neighbours ass. what if your gay? i mean it would wiggle so provocatavely at you.... ahem. im not gay, for the record. not that there's anything wrong with... oh, forget it (thats all the gay people alienated... darn. )

however, i would like to point out that these are moses' teachings. yeah, the big jewish guy with the beard. as such these rules are not "yours" per se, they belong to the israelite tribes, and your religion merely copied them (and then burnt jews for being heretics, i might add). therefore this does not bear out the true spirit of christianity. which brings me to my next point, that neither does the christian church. thats right, the CHURCH. i have nothing against christian doctrines, in fact they are strongly semblant to my own buddhist beliefs (would an idol of buddha be considered graven? buddha is not a god, nor divine, he was enlightened) and christian morality as espoused by jesus is fine. its your official bodies of representation which i loathe and wish a pox on. i can see that you are also a loather of this corruption. therefore i rescind any of the naughty things i have charged thee with.

i probably havent said all i want to say, but im tired, so ill skip the rest.

my confusion is that nobody challenged my "jesus would be a socialist/spiritualist argument" and my support of communism as a doctrinal idea (although obviously a flawed an incomplete one such as capitalism). socialism rocks people. people throw rocks. therefore communism throws people.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiitttt.....

46&2, you are truly an epitome of christianity's values, and a nice guy.
Amnesiac, i am still a strong supporter of your views as a fellow atheist (which is surprisingly consistent with buddhism.)

goodnight, folks!

 

[Deleted member 2452]

a couple thoughts

first, i think the "pledge" should be said every day in school. which version should be decided by a vote of the parents of the attending students.
next, what's wrong with a prayer at the school foot ball pep rally?
or other such activity? i feel it should be non-denominational, w/o mention of "jesus". "god" should be sufice for everyone.

next, what's wrong with vampirism, and witch craft? they can be highly fun, and interesting to study.

lastley, being a jew, you can imagine how i feel toward the catholic church in particular, and christianity in general.
enough said.
steve

 

[He-Man]

Re: a couple thoughts

first, i think the "pledge" should be said every day in school. which version should be decided by a vote of the parents of the attending students.
next, what's wrong with a prayer at the school foot ball pep rally?
or other such activity? i feel it should be non-denominational, w/o mention of "jesus". "god" should be sufice for everyone.

next, what's wrong with vampirism, and witch craft? they can be highly fun, and interesting to study.

lastley, being a jew, you can imagine how i feel toward the catholic church in particular, and christianity in general.
enough said.
steve

In answer to some of those questions (whichever ones I can think of an answer for. lol ):

How about instead of letting the PARENTS of students decide which version of the pledge to said, let the STUDENTS decide instead. After all, they'll be the ones saying it in school, right? I think let the ones who WANT to say the "under God" part, well, they can say it, and those who don't want to say those two words shouldn't have to. That should satisfy all of them a little bit.

For # 2...yeah, your idea might be good for the reglious people, but ya know some atheists ( or however you spell it. lol ) will probably be offeneded . *sigh* just can't make everyone happy all the time, can ya? lol 😛

I dunno much about Vampirsm, but I think Witchcraft is kinda cool. I think it's got a bad rep cause of some people believing that those witches believe in/worship Satan, but I've read that they don't even believe in the devil. Kind of hard to worship something you dont believe in, isn't it?

I think it's kinda interesting cause some of the stuff mentioned about performing spells sounds alot like using "chi" (basically, the energy that's in everything...nothing mystical or magical about it )...and don't they have some kind of rule or "law" that states anything they do will come back three times as strong? (or am I thinking of only Wiccans or Pagans?) ...I can see why they'd only person spells to help people. lol Interesting stuff, ain't it?
😀

 

[Amnesiac]

ARRRRRRGH! (A Humorous Plight)

46 AND 2... You're one of those noble Christians who give it a good name aren't you? ARRRGH! I HATE you people, you make it so damned hard to make cases!

When you put in the contxt that you have, I guess I wasn't referring to the rules of commandments, I was referring to Leviticus, which is a section of the Old Testament that basically tells you everything down the wrong way to eat peas. THOSE are the parts of the Bible the fanatics keep using because they help unimaginative minds constrict their living regiment down to a schedule, much like what we try to

There was a point I accidentally left out in one of my rants that you helped me remember: God and Man's merit.

My GREATEST personal quibble with religion is that of morality, and how it is predicated on man's weakness of fallability. Basically, what you subtly suggest and what fanatics spout off in loudspeakers is that mankind is capable of goodness...WITH God's influence...as though we ourselves are incapable of doing so alone. I won't deny that we tend to be particularly dastardly when left to our own devices but eventually, many of us tire of it when we exhaust the limited possibilities in corrupt practices. But to say that God gives us our "good inspirations" and God gives us our "morality" suggests that we are feeble creatures who couldn't tie our shoes without him. Seeing as how continuing this would be another rant, let me break it down comedically:

MAN: "So we...we are the chosen people? The holy children of your divine being?"

GOD: "Indeed thou art. Go then into the world and live as I have decreed in my most sacred covenants-"

MAN: "Pardon? Live how?"

GOD: "As I have decreed in my most sacred covenants, the 10 Commandments, which shall bring to thee-"

MAN: "Wait, as you have decreed?"

GOD: "...Yes, whatever is wrong?"

MAN: "Well...we are the holy children, yes?"

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "So...we must have the qualities of your great wisdom within us yes?"

GOD: "Well...yes."

MAN: "What was that?"

GOD: "What was what?"

MAN: "That ellipse."

GOD: "What ellipse?"

MAN: "There was an ellipse there, I saw it! You hesitated before you said it as though you weren't sure what to say."

GOD: "Oh that, well..."

MAN: "Are you saying you don't trust us? That we won't live rightly by ourselves?"

GOD: "No, I'm not saying that at all, I am only saying that my laws can provide guidance in the event that any should go astray."

MAN: "Why? Do you think we WILL go astray? Are you suggesting that we WILL unless we have these laws you give us?"

GOD: "It's possible."

MAN: "Only if you make it, right?"

GOD: "Okay, first there's a few things I should probably illustrate..."

MAN: "So what you;re saying is that WE are the divine children yes?"

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "But we need your laws."

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "So...in other words, we're important...but not important enough to figure things out on our own?"

comedic pause.

MAN: "Thank you...no, thanks a lot for the vote of confidence 'Dad'. It's really nice to know that you think of us so highly that you gotta engineer a flaw in us deliberately, that's nice...that's REAL fucking nice, thanks a lot."

GOD: "Now wait a minute, you have the wrong idea-"

MAN: "Fuck this, I'm out of here."

Something like that.

 

[He-Man]

Re: ARRRRRRGH! (A Humorous Plight)

[/B]


MAN: "So we...we are the chosen people? The holy children of your divine being?"

GOD: "Indeed thou art. Go then into the world and live as I have decreed in my most sacred covenants-"

MAN: "Pardon? Live how?"

GOD: "As I have decreed in my most sacred covenants, the 10 Commandments, which shall bring to thee-"

MAN: "Wait, as you have decreed?"

GOD: "...Yes, whatever is wrong?"

MAN: "Well...we are the holy children, yes?"

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "So...we must have the qualities of your great wisdom within us yes?"

GOD: "Well...yes."

MAN: "What was that?"

GOD: "What was what?"

MAN: "That ellipse."

GOD: "What ellipse?"

MAN: "There was an ellipse there, I saw it! You hesitated before you said it as though you weren't sure what to say."

GOD: "Oh that, well..."

MAN: "Are you saying you don't trust us? That we won't live rightly by ourselves?"

GOD: "No, I'm not saying that at all, I am only saying that my laws can provide guidance in the event that any should go astray."

MAN: "Why? Do you think we WILL go astray? Are you suggesting that we WILL unless we have these laws you give us?"

GOD: "It's possible."

MAN: "Only if you make it, right?"

GOD: "Okay, first there's a few things I should probably illustrate..."

MAN: "So what you;re saying is that WE are the divine children yes?"

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "But we need your laws."

GOD: "Yes."

MAN: "So...in other words, we're important...but not important enough to figure things out on our own?"

comedic pause.

MAN: "Thank you...no, thanks a lot for the vote of confidence 'Dad'. It's really nice to know that you think of us so highly that you gotta engineer a flaw in us deliberately, that's nice...that's REAL fucking nice, thanks a lot."

GOD: "Now wait a minute, you have the wrong idea-"

MAN: "Fuck this, I'm out of here."

Something like that. [/B]

ROFLMAO!!!! Oh man,that was GOOD! I'm glad I didn't have any soda in my mouth the time I read that...woulda made a nasty mess on my computer monitor. 😀 😀

 

[46and2]

Sorry it took me so long to reply gentlemen, I haven't had the time to get back to this thread.
Aussiemonkey:
First of all thanks for the compliment, I try my best. The screenname happens to be my favorite Tool song which I found out later was a very unusual scientific/spiritual theory. I agree with most of what your saying, as far as it being "copied" that depends on whether you believe Jesus was the Messiah or not. If somone doesn't believe then they would agree with you. If somone does then they would not say that it is so much "copied" as it is completed. And if you believe that (which I do) the old testament is just as much a part of the christian spirit as the new. Although your probably right in saying that I should of quoted from the new testament, but I tried to stick with something people are most familiar with. Since you mentioned that Christians burned Jews as heretics, I think it's only fair that I point out that Jews tried to execute and imprison many believers in the ressurection before that ever happened (and also were largley responsible for the execution of Jesus). Am I defending what the Christians did at that time? No. But the pot can't call the kettle black, any philosophy, religon, doctrine, or political view point can be corrupted beyond recognition when removed from it's purest form. I didn't comment about socialism because I suck at politics. About him being spiritual, sure, that's what the bible teaches you to be. The church Jesus talks about in the New Testament is the body of christ, which is made up of believers, he is not speaking of a physical establishment to go worship at. He very clearly wants us to be spiritual and talk to God on our own time as well as with others. A graven image is an idol you worship, if Buddha is not being worshipped as a deity then there is no cause to say that it's an idol.

Amnesiac_m(pc):
(I love Radiohead by the way!)
If you read Leviticus the majority of what's written is health laws that were extremley neccessary to live a long and healthy life. It specifically tells you to wash, not eat animals that carry alot of diseases, not eat unclean fruit, and how to take care of one with leperousy. There is also the burnt offerings that the Lord accepts (which I might add, that the he says you must do out of your own free will.)and the conduct of priests and the punishment for spouses who cheat on one another (I'm sorry but every society had those, I think people would be much more discretionary about marriage, and divorce would be much less frequent if those same laws applied today.) There is also the reinforcement of the ten commandments and some other laws about property and what not. It's also important to understand that this was a society who had just escaped from slavery and was out in the wilderness on their own, and it was extremeley neccessary for them to stick together, and the laws in Leviticus also served that purpose.
As far as your other statement is concerned that God is the only way we can do any good whatsoever,...well he created us with the ability to do both good and evil, to make choices. Is it to say that we could not do any good if God didn't exist? I don't know, God would have to not exist for us to be sure (I believe he does exist). Again this is something that I haven't found written in the Bible. Since my faith states that God created us there are three possible answers to this (unless someone can come up with a fourth): 1)God is responsible for all the good and evil in us since he created us. 2)God is responsible for all the good in us, we weren't introduced to evil until the serpent seduced Eve in the garden of eden. 3)God created us with free will, our own inert capacity to do what is right or wrong, in essence allowing us to be responsible for ourselves.
I believe the third statement is the truest. Because how could we choose to love him, and what joy could he possibly get from forcing us to love him? We would be nothing but robots merley. As far as God's vote of confidence is concerned, as stated in the joke you made, well he did give us the world, did he not? And why would he give us free will if he had no confidence in at least some of us? And if God is indeed our father then would he not want to teach us, just like any father would there children (hence the ten commandments)?
Anyway that's my point of view for what it's worth to the both of you.
Have a good evening.
-Phil

 

[Flatfoot]

I feel compelled to ramble...

Good Lord, I've seen so much in this post that I've wanted to comment on, but there's so much that I can't remember it all. I'll just have to settle for posting my most recent stream of thoughts. ::Shakes head:: Religious/Spiritual/Philosophical discussions ALWAYS do this to me. It was a discussion like this that gave me the courage to register in the first place! Oh well, enough straying from a topic I didn't even start contributing to.

As far as humans being incapable of living a good life without the grace of God, I get a picture in my head of God as an artist, who one day decided He was going to do something COMPLETELY off the wall, that NOBODY would ever expect from an all-powerful deity--create an imperfect creature! I mean, He had all the angels (heavenly creatures of perfection), whose purpose was to serve and worship Him one way or the other. I could be a little off, but when I think of this from a human standpoint, I picture a little stuffed animal that points at you and says, "You da MAN!" when you press its belly. How meaningful can this feel? I feel that this compelled Him to create something that wouldn't always tell Him that He's the MAN, and might in fact not say anything at all, or perhaps say that He isn't cool at all, which wouldn't make Him happy, but He'd know it was legitimate when His creature would tell Him how much it loved Him.

Next, we have Lucifer, who couldn't understand God's artistic needs. "What does He see in these ridiculous lumps of imperfect flesh that He blobs together??? Some of them don't even worship Him! If these are the shenanigans of the Almighty, I would be a better candidate for the position! I'd make the universe a place where absolute perfection is essential!"

Naturally, this didn't sit well with God, so we had the All Saints War, which Lucifer lost, because he was up against God for crying out loud! Thus, Lucifer and his non-artistic self was cast out of Heaven to rule the pits of Hell, which is everything that Heaven and God isn't. Lucifer definitely wasn't happy about this, so from then on he holds a grudge against God. And for every flawed, imperfect, human creature that God fleshes out, Lucifer does whatever he can to pervert it in some way , because he doesn't respect His artistic nature, and can't understand His logic. God's true joy comes from the humans He molds that manage to love Him even through all of Lucifer's attempted twists and perversions, which shows that He has created a perfect love through an imperfect creature! There, I summed it up, I think...

If anyone feels dumber by reading my rambling, I apologize. This is just something that I envisioned. They say nobody can visualize the true nature of God, so we give Him an image that we can comprehend.

So, who do you think wrote Genesis?