Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer

[46and2]

OBleedingMe

"So here's what you do... every morning, the teacher devotes a minute or two to a Prayer/Reflection time. That's all. You think or pray... whatever you choose. Don't want to support the Pledge of Allegiance? (shugs) Okay. But anyone else who does, they have the right to choose to do so just as you have the right to choose not to. Then you move on and you teach the complete ciriculum. Everything that happened in the world, you teach... and if you're offended by this method, then you need therapy and a valium because you are overly sensitive. You do not need laws to "protect" you.
Oh, for the record, I'm Agnostic."

That's the best suggestion Iv'e heard yet.

-Phil

 

[OBleedingMe]

To 46and2:

Thanks, 46and2!🙂

 

[Deleted member 2452]

my my, phill you are long winded aren't you...

... excitable too!
re-read this thread, you'll see where you refered to the "jewish race". you said it in context of an appology for having accidently blamed all jews for killing your precious jesus.
now for another history leason; the new testament wasn't started till 80 years after jesus suposedly died! none of it was writen by anyone who was there. none of it was written from diaries, of official documents. it was invented whole cloth, by men supposedly under devine inspiration. don't wanna believe me? ok, no skin off my nose. try talking to the priests over at the theology dept. at loyola univercity, that's one place i learned a lot of what i'm saying.
well have a nice day... if you can.
steve

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Re: to phil (46&2)

i'll try one last time.
the hebrews of jesus's time were not involved, period!
he was ordered arested by the roman gov. for crimes against the roman empire, period. he was tried be a roman court, and executed by roman fassion! what about this don't you understand?!?!

i said in my original post that what you are saying smacks of the type of anti semitism found only in arab countries, and the kkk. i never said you were a nazi, you did. you also said that judism was a race. this is galling to any, and all jews. being of the hebrew faith, means a religion! smammy davis jr. was jewish, his race was black. i am a jew, but my race is caucasian.
to say jews are a seperate race, is highly offensive, and incorrect!
to believe otherwise is to be a complete moron.
i'll agree with amnesiac, it's the christians of old that i hate. they are responsible for more harm in the world, than 5 hitlers!
and lastly, yes i do hold the new testament to be a book thats devoted as much to putting down the hebrew faith, as to raising up the christian.
if we have nothing to discuss in the future, that is your decision.
steve

Steve, I wouldn't waste my time. Some people cannot see beyond their own hate. They refuse to see the world. They only want to see "their version" of the world.

In other words, people choose to see what they want to see, and only what they want to see.

As my grandfather would say "Believe what you will, just don't let the facts get in the way".

 

[Deleted member 2452]

hi tm750

amazing how wise grandfthers were/are?
my maternal grandfather said religion was like a bike tire. the hub is god, the spokes are the different religions, and the tire is all the people of the world. we all pray to the same god, but there are still those who will tell you that if you don't do it their way, you are bad/wrong/going to hell.
funny, i don't know anywhere, or any time, that god said this, only people.
steve

 

[TicklingDuo]

I've stayed quiet until now. But, I must say just one thing....

I beleive that prayer and the pledge SHOULD be allowed. But, like anything else, it should be done by each individual who wishes to do so in whatever way they choose. For those who don't believe in anything, that's fine. They don't have to do anything or listen to others. Just provide a moment of silence where each individual can SILENTLY do as they like....be it prayer or a simple moment of quiet to prepare for the day ahead.

The fact is that many schools have actually suspended students for meeting to pray or read Scripture. That's as wrong as forcing those who don't share their faith to listen to that prayer. This is a free country, professing freedom of speech. As long as it does no harm to others, it should be allowed.

Ann

PS - Last I knew, Scott was preparing to enter formation. So, his site may be on hold until he has time to work on it.

 

[Texas_Tickle]

I've stayed quiet until now. But, I must say just one thing....

I beleive that prayer and the pledge SHOULD be allowed. But, like anything else, it should be done by each individual who wishes to do so in whatever way they choose. For those who don't believe in anything, that's fine. They don't have to do anything or listen to others. Just provide a moment of silence where each individual can SILENTLY do as they like....be it prayer or a simple moment of quiet to prepare for the day ahead.

The fact is that many schools have actually suspended students for meeting to pray or read Scripture. That's as wrong as forcing those who don't share their faith to listen to that prayer. This is a free country, professing freedom of speech. As long as it does no harm to others, it should be allowed.

Ann

Very well stated, Ann. I agree that if you wish to pray, that is your right. Those who do not wish to pray, should at least show respect to those who do. They should not be allowed to take it upon themselves to "forbid" others to pray.

We are at a point, where everybody is concerned about "their rights" even if that means trampling on the rights of others.

 

[46and2]

Re: my my, phill you are long winded aren't you...

... excitable too!
re-read this thread, you'll see where you refered to the "jewish race". you said it in context of an appology for having accidently blamed all jews for killing your precious jesus.
now for another history leason; the new testament wasn't started till 80 years after jesus suposedly died! none of it was writen by anyone who was there. none of it was written from diaries, of official documents. it was invented whole cloth, by men supposedly under devine inspiration. don't wanna believe me? ok, no skin off my nose. try talking to the priests over at the theology dept. at loyola univercity, that's one place i learned a lot of what i'm saying.
well have a nice day... if you can.
steve

Ah... Steve old buddy! I was afraid I lost you there! I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm glad you decided to continue this disscussion.
Now in response to your first statement you obviously didn't read my entire post allow me to quote from it:

"The Jewish religon was founded by Hebrews, right? Then perhaps I should of reffered to them as the Hebrew race. Well excuse the fuck out of me! You could of made me aware of this without taking total offense to what I said, and actually paying attention to what I meant which was pretty damn obvious (I assume your talking about my second post where I said I had nothing against the "Jewish" race, so I should of said Hebrew instead)."

Now I will agree that I can be a bit excitable (as you were in our first interaction), I'll take long-winded as a compliment given I'm usually told I don't speak my mind enough. As you'll notice I'm well aware of where I messed up by calling Jews a race (which I'll edit if you'd like me to), the question I asked you was where in my ORIGINAL post did I say that. Also I never said "all" Jews were responsible accidentally or otherwise, my mistake in communication was saying that some of them were largley responsible rather then partially (I didn't specify "some" or "all", but still for you to get "all" from my post is a stretch of the imagination). Also you were comparing me to the KKK before I ever put "Jew" and "race" in the same post.But you know what bro? I'm done defending myself, because no matter what I do to prove otherwise you will continue to think of me the way you do. If you, my friend, go back and re-read this thread you will see that I've already attempted to make peace with you more then once. I've also apologised for any misscommunication, but you just don't want to believe me (sigh..).
I built a bridge and I got over it, hopefully you can do the same.
Well spilt milk, on to greener pastures, and all that jazz,

Your not telling me anything I don't know, but there are other historical documents written by scribes, priests, and Roman officials of the time whom had nothing to do with the writing of the New Testament (edit: I put references at the bottom of the post)that back up alot of what it says , including the events of the crucifixion (and same to you about whether you want to believe me or not, go back to your university and find out.). In case you forgot they teach that my "precious Jesus" was executed in highschool world history (and they still do according to my little cousins). Your still reffering to it as "supposed" it's not. And your still danceing around one question: How was the new testament written to tear down Judaism?
I'm having a very nice day, thank you very much, and you?

BTW: If you do happen to do any research, here are some specific non-biblical historical sources that more then back up the points I've made:
Josephus' "Antiquities"- probably the best source, (books 18-20), Julius Africanus when reffering to the ancient writer "Thallus"(I don't know the name of the book, but there is a written collection), Cornelius Tacitus in his letters to Emperor Vespian (preserved by Eusebius), Lucan of Samosata,and Mara Bar-Serapion.

tm750: How am I being hateful? I've supported everything I've said with facts on top of explaining my mistake when reffering to the Jews.

-Phil

 

[Deleted member 2452]

hi phil, let's try again *sigh*

i said your saying that jews killed jesus (a lie) was antisemetic, and only to be found in kkk meetings, and arab countries, or a complete moron. here i was wrong, you aren't a kkk'er, nor an arab, you are not a complete moron, just in this instance, and antisemetic.
you called yourself a nazi, in your following post, but also called judeism a race, as though all jews were something other than caucasin. this is what i found highly troubling! i am as white of shin as anyone! my ancestors come from germany, holand, france, rumania, scotland. how do you get anything but white from that, huh?
use of the term jew, or jewish is fine, and can substitute hebrew w/o rankor, i don't understand why you are stuck on that one, i was pretty clear. i would think ill of you if you had said hebrew race. getting the idea yet? jewdeism is not a race, it is a religion!
i have done much research on religion over the years. i choose not to quote chapter and verse, as i feel it makes those that do it look like they have no life, lol.
i'll give one last historical note. the romans arrested jesus (suposedly) for religious crimes against the roman empire, he was tried, and found guilty by pilot. the people were given a choise of saving the life of a condemed man, jesus, or barabus a known freedom fighter. they chose barabus, (remember this was the pick of the crowd hanging around the jail). jesus was killed by crucifiction, well not really, he was actually killed br a roman legionaire named casca longenous who tired of waiting around all day, and a sizable mob was growing, so in an effort to speed things up, he stabbed jesus in the side with his spear. now had this been a hebrew execution jesus would have been stoned to death, or thrown from a cliff. given the terain, he would have been hurled from a near by mountain. that is how we know jesus was not killed by jews! period, full stop.
again, have a good day...if you can.
steve

 

[omega]

Re: hi phil, let's try again *sigh*

i'll give one last historical note. the romans arrested jesus (suposedly) for religious crimes against the roman empire, he was tried, and found guilty by pilot. the people were given a choise of saving the life of a condemed man, jesus, or barabus a known freedom fighter. they chose barabus, (remember this was the pick of the crowd hanging around the jail). jesus was killed by crucifiction, well not really, he was actually killed br a roman legionaire named casca longenous who tired of waiting around all day, and a sizable mob was growing, so in an effort to speed things up, he stabbed jesus in the side with his spear. now had this been a hebrew execution jesus would have been stoned to death, or thrown from a cliff. given the terain, he would have been hurled from a near by mountain. that is how we know jesus was not killed by jews! period, full stop.
again, have a good day...if you can.
steve

The New Testament in clear, the execution of Jesus was carried out by the Roman government of Pontius Pilate. Jesus was first arrested by the Jewish priests and tried before the Jewish Sanhedrian. The Sanhedrian sentenced Jesus to death but knew that if they carried out their own execution the wrath of Rome would come down upon them. They then took Jesus to Pilate and there accused him of religious crimes against the Emporer. Then Pilate took it from there and Jesus was actually physically killed by the Roman soldiers.

BTW, do your university professors get their information from first century documents? If not, when were their source documents written? I'd be surprised if it was any closer to the actual event than the New Testament is.

 

[46and2]

Hello Steve

I understand Judaism is not a race, and it's a religon. I've already agreed with you on that, and said I was sorry for saying what I said for it wasn't what I meant (I really don't know what else you want from me on that). I would really like to move past this now.
I also never said that the Jews killed Jesus. Let me see if I can rephrase this to where I don't come off the wrong way: We both agree that the Jews didn't kill Jesus (as I just pointed out). So you being an educated man I will ask you these questions: Were there any Jews involved in the conspiracy to Kill Jesus? Again I don't mean they were physically there murdering him. Was he not tried by the Sanhedrin before being taken to Pilate? And I'll spare you the quotations until you answer me.
-Phil

 

[Deleted member 2452]

thanks omega for once again proving my point

all you people are doing is going by a fairy tale called the "new testament". the reason they put that the jews tried him, then turned him over to the romans for execution of sentance, was 1) that parts of it were writen by romans/italians. 2) the romans had accepted the new religion before most of it was writen. now, do you think the writers are going to blame their patrons? hardly, they're going to play down the romans role, and put in total lies about a group already on the crap list of those in power, the jews.
i know i'm not going to change any minds here, they are too firmly closed, and bared. no sintilla of fresh truth could breze in, where no crack exists. i have a book though that i'll find, that you can get some startling info from.
good day to all.
steve

 

[omega]

Re: thanks omega for once again proving my point

all you people are doing is going by a fairy tale called the "new testament". the reason they put that the jews tried him, then turned him over to the romans for execution of sentance, was 1) that parts of it were writen by romans/italians. 2) the romans had accepted the new religion before most of it was writen. now, do you think the writers are going to blame their patrons? hardly, they're going to play down the romans role, and put in total lies about a group already on the crap list of those in power, the jews.
i know i'm not going to change any minds here, they are too firmly closed, and bared. no sintilla of fresh truth could breze in, where no crack exists. i have a book though that i'll find, that you can get some startling info from.
good day to all.
steve

OK, I have before asked you to prove that the New Testament is a fairy tale. When will you do this? Now on to your two points.

1) Only Luke may have been a Roman. The rest were all Jewish.

2) Huh? Christians were persecuted by Rome until Constantine officially recognized the religion in the early 300's AD. By then the New Testament as we know it had been written for at least 180 years.

Yes, please give us reference to this "book" of yours. I will even buy a copy as long as it doesn't cost $50.

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Re: Re: thanks omega for once again proving my point

2) Huh? Christians were persecuted by Rome until Constantine officially recognized the religion in the early 300's AD. By then the New Testament as we know it had been written for at least 180 years.

That is true. The Roman Empire was against any religion that put their god before and above their idols

Who do you think the Gladiators were? They were Christians who refused to denounce their faith. They refused to worship the Emperor as a god.

Nero especially made it his personal mission to eradicate Christianity off the face of the Earth.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

Re: Re: thanks omega for once again proving my point

OK, I have before asked you to prove that the New Testament is a fairy tale. When will you do this? Now on to your two points.

1) Only Luke may have been a Roman. The rest were all Jewish.

2) Huh? Christians were persecuted by Rome until Constantine officially recognized the religion in the early 300's AD. By then the New Testament as we know it had been written for at least 180 years.

Yes, please give us reference to this "book" of yours. I will even buy a copy as long as it doesn't cost $50.

first the book; "the woman's encyclopedia of myths and secrets".
writen by barbara g. walker, published by harper&row. ibsn# 0-06-250926-8.
there is no more "proof" that the new testament is real, than there is that grim's fairy tales are false! it's all based on "belief". if you choose to believe it, it's real, if like i, you don't believe, then it's as false, and laughable as the brothers grim, or mother goose.
please check your dates again, i thought the n.t. wasn't finished till later. parts were writen in the second century a.d., but the work wasn't finished for a couple hundred years.
as for proof of it's anti-semetic nature, the fact that it blames the jews for arresting jesus, and condeming him! all lies!
and t.m. 750, i know if you research it, you'll find that the gladiators were around for a few hundred years prior to emanual ben-joseph even being a twinkle in his fathers eye.
steve

 

[bticklishfeet]

How did this come to this? 🙁

Just curious as how this arguing about who killed Jesus came from "Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer are taken away from schools etc"?
I don't think luv2bt&tickled meant for this to happen. So much bad going on in the world, why can't we all get along and stop arguing and name calling?😕
My 2 cents🙄

 

[Michigan J Frog]

my 2 cents too!

Amen sister!!🙂

 

[46and2]

Your right, and I'm sorry If I fueled anything it wasn't my intention to do so. Draw your own conclusions and believe what you will. I think bticklishfeet is right, we've gone way off base, and it doesn't appear as though this conversation is benefiting anyone, I'm finished.
Again I apologise. I wish everyone a good evening.
-Phil

 

[Deleted member 2452]

you got it cookie

i'll stop being a pain... see, all you had to do was ask🙂
i'm putting this line of discourse to bed.
steve

 

[omega]

I gotta believe that if all of us were ever face to face in the same room we would be better friends than is evident in some of our posts here.

To infinity . . . and beyond!!