Terri Schavio Dies

[ticklish_spirit]

The killing of Terri is the latest blossom on the Black Vine which is choking Western Civilization.

What Western Civilization?

 

[mart]

What Western Civilization?

True. When Ghandi was asked once what he thought of Western civilization, he said, "I think it would be a good idea."

As regards the above issue, there are times in life when one or the other of us is called upon to play God, and to make judgements which no human being should be making. I always am grateful that it is not me, and am wary of ascribing blame to one or other and suspecting vested interests. It is also equally well possible that both parties were trying to do what they thought right according to their own lights. I don't know how I would have acted, placed in any one of their positions.

 

[ticklish_spirit]

Well whatever was right and whatever was wrong I think it's safe to say that in any case Terri would not have wanted to become a public spectical of national scale.

 

[jj82277]

kunoke, I don't feel that the neurological field of study has yet to accurately determine the levels of Sciavo's internal conciousness. seeing as she could not clearly outwardly communicate we will never know. for all we know she could have been doing quantam physics, and just not able to tell us. I think that in this case we can definately see that the two proffesions in this country that America is choosing to replace God is doctors and lawyers who have the most distinctions confered by man (that would be college degrees).

I think that KY raises a great point that Michaels relationship to his new wife serverly compramised his interests. I think that there should be a law written into state and federal law that defines common law marriage, and a status at which a paper marriage should be disolved if a common law adulterous relationship forms, so that custodial and financial privilages can be taken away. Michael Schiavo stopped being this womans husband a long time ago. When they teach in a college level family studies course how to stay legally married while living with someone else for the tax benifits, you know that something has to change, and i think that we are really sitting on our hands with this one.

Schiavo, elderly, retarded, and infantile. I think that there is a definite connection to all of these ituations, and the propensity of some to relive themselves of their burden. I think that the arguments of abortion and Schiavo are basically identicall (legal point of privacy), and the extrapilations for determining quality of life as it relates to keeping someone here will increase exponentially. Oh grandma broke her leg, she won't want to live like that. I know that's extreme, but all the while possible if their are some type of complications in the surgery to repair her leg. There are conflicting reports as to wether or not MsSchiavo would have been able to eat on her own had she been given proper rehab which her loving husband denied her. if ou take away food and water from anyone they will surely die, and they didn't just remove the feeding tube, they forbid anyone from feeding her orally which i think is just barbaric.

I think that the role of the executive, and legislative branch of governments were forever bastardized in this case. If a criminal, prosecuted under the law written by the legislators, is found guilty by the judiciary, and a jury of their peers to be guilty of a capital offense then their death penalty can be directly overturned by the executive branch. and none of the three could starve the inmate to death. It would have to be humane. The idea that the executive and legislative branches don't have constitutional authority to check the judiciary is ubsurd. I am not going to turn this country over to a bunch of appointees just because the went to HAAAARRRRVAAARRDD.

but what's really going on here. we would all be doing something else if 15 years ago when this all happened, Mr. Schiavo just said, you know what she said she doesn't want to live like this. if his conviction was so strong then it would habve happened then and it would have been better for everyone. It tooks him 7 years and a new family) that his wife didn't want to live this way, come on. when nurses testify that he brought this woman to the hospice, and uttered the words, "see i told you she was dying," that lets me know, that his eternal promise to her was long out the window, and that he was just looking out for number one. the only thing that i can say of this whoe situation is please be carefull. that person might have the best laugh or the quickest fingers in the world, but when you can't talk for yourself, they are going to ask the person you marry, and it better be a reflection of you, because there won't be another 15 year stay for us.

 

[AphroditeRabbit]

I think what's done is done, and no matter what your opinion stands at it's not going to change anything anyway. There was scandal on BOTH sides throughout the whole thing. Good thing their affairs and problems aren't mine. I prefer keeping it that way.

 

[nessonite1]

Right or wrong it's safe to say Michael Schiavo is an asshole. And for me that colors any decision he makes. There are a LOT of people close to the couple who speak of his disinterest in his wife. Affair? fine, it happens. Wife is pretty much a vegetable it's not hard to imagine someone looking for another woman. No reason to stay married though that I can see other than just to make sure your wife dies so you can get the $$.
He actively resricted her family's access to her while she was dying. He wouldn't allow them to be with her when she died. Insisted that she be cremated even though she was a devout Catholic and it wouldn't have been what she wanted. And here's what gets me...Buried her (or is going to bury her) and won't let her family know when or where. I'm, sorry but that is heartless and cruel. After hearing all that I really don't think this is a man who was terribly interested in "What terri would have wanted".

 

[Cbarton]

All we can do now is make sure:

(1) OUR families know our TRUE wishes and get them in a Living Will or Advanced Directive.

(2) Protect those next in the firing line. It is NOT a huge stretch to suppose what could happen now. The retarded? paraplegic/quadraplegics? Down's Syndrome? Any heart atack or stroke patient? All of these could be argued morally, ethically, and LEGALLY as have a poor quality of life, so why should they be allowed to suffer (or us forced to suffer to have them live). Before you say that's too far fetched, I can rememeber when people like Dr, Jack Kevorkian were disccussed in THEORY when I was in college 20 years ago! I can remember debates many of these topics, and the porblem with 'ethics' is, depending on what world view you base you ethics on, you can 'justify' anything.

(3) AR, this should concern you for this is the world and nation that is developing before you. Turning a blind eye is just what the Germans did in 1934 when Hitler took power. All they cared about was peace, security and economy. So what if they kill off the retarded, Gypsies, Jews, and other 'undesireables?' All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to do nothing. Read the life of Deitrich Bonhoeffer (sp?) and let your eyes be opened.

(4) I think the late Ms. Schiavo's autopsy results need to be made public, in the light of abuse allegations toward the non-man she was married to. If it is true he abused her and may have caused head trauma to her, that changes the whole complexion of the case. (And no, I 'm no conspiracy theorist, I just want to make sure for his sake that it is only supposition, otherwise, there could be grounds for murder/manslaughter charges).

Michael Schiavo failed to be a real man in all this, and is now reaping the consequences. If she had truly wanted not to be kept alive, he should have started right away rather than after the malpractice suit(s) were settled. He makes it look very suspicious (after all, if you take the opposing view that even therapy would not have brought her back, she wouldn't be able to testify. More valuable to keep around as a living piece of evidence for the jury than as a corpse I suppose...) His actions reek of hypocrisy. For those who say it was cruel for her parents to keep here going this long, isn't it just as cruel to have kept her around for the 7 years (if I have the time table right) prior to the malpractice verdict? According to arguements opposing my viewpoint, the logic would carry that ANY time period of 'prolonged life" is too long and cruel. I would like to hear other viewpoints on that, not to heat up arguements, but to see how those opposed to her parents actions feel about his actions prior to his seeking to pull the tube. I'm truly interested in seeing your views on that, for I feel it is even more vital that the most recent events.

 

[AphroditeRabbit]

All we can do now is make sure:
(3) AR, this should concern you for this is the world and nation that is developing before you. Turning a blind eye is just what the Germans did in 1934 when Hitler took power. All they cared about was peace, security and economy. So what if they kill off the retarded, Gypsies, Jews, and other 'undesireables?' All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to do nothing. Read the life of Deitrich Bonhoeffer (sp?) and let your eyes be opened.

Comparing this to Hitler is a little insulting I would have to say. And I am not turning a blind eye, it's none of my business. It does not concern me whatsoever. This is a private family struggle, not something everyone should have a vote on. This isn't politics, this is personal. Unfortunately, it's turned that way. Unless anyone here is her doctor who has personally examined her and was there for everything that was said and done between both families, I don't think anyone truly knows what's going on, and should leave it at that.

 

[Cbarton]

Comparing this to Hitler is a little insulting I would have to say. And I am not turning a blind eye, it's none of my business. It does not concern me whatsoever.

Those who fail to remeber the past are doomed to repeat it....

 

[AphroditeRabbit]

I stand by what I say. This is no genocide by any means. And to compare any of this to what happened to those under Hitler is insulting to what they endured.

 

[MistressValerie1]

Here is an article with a unique viewpoint on the broader implications of this case: http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/focus/incapacitated032005.html

Disability groups seek legal protection for 'incapacitated' people

By Mary Johnson

MAR 23, 2005-- As legal appeals are exhausted in the case of Terri Schiavo, the long-term issue, say disability groups, is whether guardians should "have carte blanche to starve and dehydrate" people with conditions like hers.

Sen. Tom Harkin 's (D. IA) effort in Congress last week to produce a wider bill was typical of the role he's played for disabled people during his years in Congress.

....
Sen. Harkin told reporters, "There are a lot of people in the shadows, all over this country, who are incapacitated because of a disability, and many times there is no one to speak for them, and it is hard to determine what their wishes really are or were. So I think there ought to be a broader type of a proceeding that would apply to people in similar circumstances who are incapacitated."

"It's one thing to refuse treatment ourselves, but it's quite another when someone else makes that decision," says Diane Coleman, head of Not Dead Yet. "Disability groups don't think guardians should have carte blanche to starve and dehydrate people with conditions like brain injury, developmental disabilities -- which the public calls 'birth defects' -- and Alzheimers.

"Studies show that most elder abuse," she continues, "is committed by the spouse or adult child, the same people appointed guardians under state laws." (Abuse increasing -- 3/19/05 news article.)

The danger faced by "incapacitated" or non-communicative persons -- people who have been declared "incompetent" and their legal rights assigned to a "guardian," has been worrying disability rights activists for years, and came to a head 18 months ago, back in Oct., 2003, when, as now, Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed.

But the issue is much bigger than Schiavo, and it is not about the "right to life" -- it is about equal protection of the law. Constitutional protection.

Over a dozen disability groups have repeatedly urged Constitutional review of cases like this. Two years ago, the groups urged the Florida court in the Schiavo case to "require a genuine application of the due process standard" and require "that Terri's wishes be proven by clear and convincing evidence, consistent with the Cruzan standard set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court."

"That standard is vital to the survival of hundreds of thousands of people with severe disabilities in guardianship because, as numerous studies prove, guardians too often value the life of their ward far less than the ward values his or her own life," wrote Not Dead Yet in a letter to the Florida ACLU, which at the time supported Michael Schiavo's effort to disconnect his wife's feeding tube.

Yesterday, Harkin told reporters, "Where there is a genuine dispute as to what the desires of the incapacitated person really are, then there ought to be at the end some review by a federal court outside of state jurisdiction."

"Competency is not an all-or-nothing thing. That's why the law provides for limited guardianship, which seeks to respect the choices of people who may not be fully independent in decision-making," says Not Dead Yet. "The Terri [Schiavo] of today, and all people in guardianship, deserve protection of their rights not to be deprived of life without due process by a guardian who feels that their ward is as good as dead, better off dead, or that the guardian himself or herself would be better off without the ward."
....

 

[Tristan_Tickle]

If this were the wild and there were no machines, nature would have already taken it's course and Terri would have died in 1990. Terri died 15 years ago. That is where nature and "God" stood on the issue. The machines is where man came in. That had nothing to do with God. Quality of life vs. quantity.

 

[-Kunoke-]

If this were the wild and there were no machines, nature would have already taken it's course and Terri would have died in 1990. Terri died 15 years ago. That is where nature and "God" stood on the issue. The machines is where man came in. That had nothing to do with God. Quality of life vs. quantity.

Thank god someone sees it my way.
Not to be rude, it's just stupid. The whole thing is stupid. I'm starting to agree with AR though. What's done is done, and it wasn't our business to begin with.

 

[jj82277]

I was a breeched birth. i came out backwards. got tangled in my embilical cord. was close to beoing clinically dead before an emergency c-section. medical technology saved my life, and i think im fine now. jsut because someone was saved by medical science does not invalidate their exiscatance. I stand by my origional premise, that the woman had the chance to eat and be hydrated seperate of the heroic efforts to stabalize her condition 15 years ago. it was not pulling a plug, it was denying family members the ability to feed her that made the act barbaric in my humble oppinion. i think that it would have been more just to allow them if at all possible to sustain her if she could sustain food and beverage orally. if that is the case then i don't think that there is any way not to see the act as murder, and as everyone before me i will graciously bow out.

 

[MacD]

my few words...
imagine you were in a state where maybe all awareness left to you is to know you are alive. You can't communicate with others, maybe you even do not feel your senses any more. All you know is "this is my life", the rest is black around your mind.
Wuold you say it's torture to let you die? Or would you say it's torture to keep you alive like this for years(!!!) ?

Me personally, I would say it is f**king cruel and beyond any dignity and respect for me, to let me "live" like that. People who call this state "dignified" simply let me lay there, while they walk around and enjoy themselves. And they call this "life"... hm......
Of course it's everyone's own opinion. But maybe you want to lay down, close your eyes and stay like this for just 15 minutes. Then imagine it's one hour. And one day. A week.....
Maybe you start to feel what I mean?


Was a little more than a few words, but the first thing I thought when I heard of this woman's death (even in germany...) was "this woman finally got the right to have a dignified death". I guess I would feel lucky when I was her.

 

[jj82277]

the only problem i have is that recovering comma patients have described being fully awake and aware even when doctors and such sid that they should not have been. recalling conversations, and always trying to communicate outwardly but couldn't. consider this: if you left all the parts of your mind, that make up basic conciousness, in tact, but cut off the ability to communicate that conciousness to the rest of the world, how could we as the outsiders know what was going on inside your brain. if we knew enough to exactly pinpoint which neuron was responsible for what we would be able to fix it, so we don't really know. I thiknk that in this case that the error should have been on keeping her alive for the simple fact that we don't know wether she was aware or not at worst. I have spoken to family members that work in this field of patient care, and from the videotapes they looked at she seemed to be aware, just unable to communicate. in the absence of a living will i think that there should be clear incontravertable evidence to overturn someone's life (If you don't believe in GOD, the NFL rulebook is probably the next best source). I just think that the situation was too ambiguous, especially considering this path of action was only brought about 7 years after the initiall paralysis, to have forbid this woman to be fed.

 

[morgandee]

...MRIs?

 

[jj82277]

that's true, but at the same time, they know generalities of regions. they couldn't possibly know the complete ramifications of this situation based on the areas of the brain, because if she was aware or not she couldn't communicate and that would be an unscientific assumption, (but hell they still teach that evoloution garbage in schools right).

 

[MistressValerie1]

The probate judge assigned to the case, George Greer, ordered that an MRI *not* be performed to confirm the 2002 diagnosis of PVS.

Terri Schiavo never had an MRI or a PET scan or a thorough neurological examination. Republican Senate leader Bill Frist, a specialist in heart-lung transplant surgery, has, as The New York Times reported on March 23, "certified [in his practice] that patients were brain dead so that their organs could be transplanted." He is not just "playing doctor" on this case.

During a speech on the Senate floor March 17, Frist, speaking of Greer's denial of a request for new testing and examinations of Terri, said reasonably, "I would think you would want a complete neurological exam" before determining she must die.

Frist added: "The attorneys for Terri's parents have submitted 33 affidavits from doctors and other medical professionals, all of whom say that Terri should be re-evaluated."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050403/news_mz1e3hentoff.html

 

[MacD]

jj82277, exactly that is what i wanted to say. nobody knows what such a patient can recognize and think.
and exactly that is the point.
i am healthy in the moment (hopefully...), i meet people, i communicate and so on, short: i have what i personally call "life".
"to live" does not only mean "to exist" to me. being full of fear in my mind, because i do not know how many years i have to be caught inside of nothing but my own thoughts must be the worst kind of torture to me! the problem is, nobody can see this, because the person can not express himself any more.

sometimes wiht these discussions i aks myself if the relatives of coma patients simply do not want to loose the body of someone they love. maybe they forget what the persons thinks and feels, because they only see their own desires.
of course a coma patient can not say "i'm feeling bad with that situation", but he also can't say "i'm fine".

in a german newspaper i read about a woman, whose man is also a coma patient for years. the article said "nobody knows if and what this man still recognizes". the woman said (about terry) "this is murder on rates". i then thought keeping the man in this state is murder on years.

do you know what recovered patients said about their situation? could be interesting.