The American Navy at its dimwitted best.

[Neutron]

Einstein..

Was a hell of a great theoretician. But his political observations were always off base. Yes siamese dream you CAN prepare AND prevent war. Witness the cold War. Overall it was a preparation for the Ultimate war based on the premise that if you were prepared enough, war would be prevented. There were some harrowing moments, BUT in the end it did prevent a real war. Ask the Rusians what was the main contributor to ending the cold war, they'll tell you they were frightened to death of US Submarines and their technology ie sonar. Einstein was wrong. He wasn't wrong about many things BUT history has proven war is usually prevented if you're strong enough to prevent a war. Early in US History we were constantly at war simply because we weren't strong enough to prevent it. Then as the country grew stronger the foreign wars stopped. You might not be aware of this, because it seems you don't know history all that well, BUT in the first 40 years of this countries history we fought over 30 wars mostly Naval in nature.

The US was attacked by the Japanse SIMPLY because they felt we weren't prepared for war therefore we wouldn't fight. This is well documented by statements they made after WW2. The germans felt Britain wasn't prepared for a war, so they started the path towards WW2. Again this is documented by nazi official statements.

Bin laden attacked because he felt we weren't prepared to counter attack. Again, HIS statement.

History has hundreds of examples where countries ended up in wars simply because they weren't prepared to fight one.

As for the environment, I agree with George Carlin, Why is man so arrogant that he feels he has the ability to destroy what Mother Nature took 5 billion years to create? Based on past planet changes we aren't destroying a damn thing. The earth is going through a cycle, just as it has many times in the past. The whales will live, or adapt.


Tron

 

[Mike_Edward]

The reason that there is anti-American sentiment in the Arab world is not the reason that most people think. They see all the Arabs in the streets and assume they are protesting because they hate us. They believe they must be protesting because they are upset about the Palestinians, and their treatment by Israel. And the antiwar line of reasoning usually relies on the notion that violence begets violence, and that violence is never the answer.

But history suggests otherwise, and that sometimes, there is a time for war.

As a wise professor at Harvard said, Islam has bloody boarders. In other words, Islam is at war with the world. Ask yourselves, why aren't those Arabs protesting the slaughter of Muslims in India, by the Hindus in India? After all, 500 died in just one week, so shouldn't they be just as furious about that? Why aren't they protesting the brutal oppression of the Muslims in west China, as part of China's 'Strike Hard' campaign? Why aren't they protesting against the treatment of the Muslims in Russia, where over 70,000 Chechens have been killed? Why are they fighting with the Christians in Indonesia? Why are they involved in a *horrible* series of wars with the Christians and animists in Africa? Why don't they hate the British or the French after the countless atrocities that both countries committed when they were colonial powers?

The answer is simple: because the governments of these Arab states will let them vent only on Israel and America. These Arab governments, which cannot offer their people work, education, comfortable retirements, good homes, decent jobs or any sort of the things we take here for granted, need somebody for their people to hate. They can't hate the Russians, the Chinese, or the Indians - after all, they're all to important politically and economically. But Israel? Perfect target. Economically unimportant to the Arab states, politically isolated except for America. Ever read George Orwell's 1984? The 'Two Minutes of Hate' ritual? Same thing. So same it's scary.

In a backhanded sort of way, the pacifists and Buchananites are right - our war in Afghanistan cannot stop terror. The only thing that can't stop terror is reform by Arab states of their own governments and their own societies, so that more people have an opportunity to make something out of their lives, rather than channeling their frustrations into hate and violence. The only thing we can do in the meantime is everything in our power to slow it down, if not stop it.

 

[Oblesklk]

our war in Afghanistan cannot stop terror. The only thing that can't stop terror is reform by Arab states of their own governments and their own societies, so that more people have an opportunity to make something out of their lives, rather than channeling their frustrations into hate and violence. The only thing we can do in the meantime is everything in our power to slow it down, if not stop it.

Truer words never spoken.

Hate breeds hate, violence begets violence. Period. The best thing we can do is help stem the tide of violence that has gripped the minds of our overseas friends, not add to it.

I agree with Dave very strongly. Our military needs the freedom to do its job...to an extent. It does require a bit of common sense to carry out reconnaissance missions, you have to pick and choose your battles. And quite frankly, the oceans just aren't where the action is.

If a terrorist organization ever commandeers a nuclear submarine for its own purposes from another military superpower, I think we got much bigger issues to deal with. And that's about the only way anyone's going to get ahold of one, since I haven't seen one on eBay for awhile...

 

[ShiningIce]

When the Earth goes through its cycles it means that its READY to do so!! (Well unless its a meteor or something) We are creating problems for the planet. Dont try to pawn it off on a natural cycle. George Carlin is WRONG we have a VERY strong impact on the earth. Our damaging the planet is NOT part of the natural cycle!!

 

[kurchatovium]

I don't think the world will go extinct because the navy uses sonar or because they will be some major nuclear battle. Our navy is strong and should stay that way, thats is why there is no action in the oceans because no one wants to mess with us. As for the whales I have nothing against whales and the navy should do what it can to avoid adversely affecting them. I do believe that the intensity of sonar is not nearly as high as when it was first being used. Remember sonar is being used even by scientists trying to map the bottom of the world's oceans and understand the planet better. The sonar technology of the past I think even made breakthroughs possible in ultrasound technology today which is now used instead of X-rays for monitoring a woman's pregancy. So I don't think the use of sound is antiquated. I also think there is enough room on the planet so whales and the navy can coexist.

Right now I think in terms of world extinction I would worry more about that asteroid that might hit in 2019. Thats gonna do a heck of a lot more damage than almost anything we can do here on earth.

 

[siamese dream]

Tron, I think I saw that Einstein quote in a different way than you, but you make a good point. What I worry is that with all this preparing for war and intimidating each other, we've built up such a huge amount of weaponry that the results could be disastrous for everyone if we ever got into a war that we failed at preventing.

I still stand by my statement that I don't believe the taking of human life on a mass scale is right, in any circumstances, and so basically that means I just feel much sadness for everything that's happening in the world. War is a reality, and I'm not trying to ignore that, but I don't have to agree with it at all.

Mike_Edward, I agree very much that what is needed in Afghanistan is political reform by the citizens of the country, not a war on terrorism. And I also think that if we are really trying to fight terrorism, we should be spending less money on bombing terrorists in the middle east, and more on homeland security. Think about it... our country is huge, and can hide a lot of people who wish to attack us. What threat do the islamic extremeists IN THE MIDDLE EAST truly pose to the U.S.? They aren't going to come over here in a plane and drop a bomb on us. If we get attacked again, it will be from people INSIDE the country. If we want to prevent something like 9/11 from happening again, then we need to find the extremists with bombs hiding in our big cities, not the ones hiding in the mountains in Afghanistan.

 

[Krokus]

Well

As harsh as it may sound, I believe that violence is the only way to get peoples attention.

 

[Dave2112]

Two things:

One, in answer to Krokus, I believe that violence gets people's attention...but that attention doesn't solve the problem. It just creates new ones. There are plenty of things that get attention. The original posting of this thread got a lot of people's attention, and no violence was involved. Art gets people's attention, outstanding good deeds get people's attention. That's not a big accomplishment. Once you get the attention, then what do you do with it? Peaceful protests get attention...sometimes changing policy or views. Violent protests also get attention...that these people are nuts that need to be ignored. Not that it's the right view, but that's the one that's put forth. There is a time for violence, not saying there isn't, but it shouldn't be the first thing tried. That's my belief, anyway.

Two...

I just wanted to interject something positive here. We've had a ton of threads go south on us when a major issue is brought to the table. For the most part, this one has been well-debated from both sides. This is what it's all about. Leave the name-calling and nonsensical "data" at home, and support your point. This had the potential to be a bad one, and you guys rose above it and debated. It was nice to see that happen.

Just my two credits.😎

 

[Mike_Edward]

Siamese, there is a connection that you are not making.

You ask what threat that terrorists from the middle east could possibly pose to us. Surely, you must know that the terrorists September 11 came from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and were trained in Afghanistan. How can you argue that terrorists from the middle east can't harm us? It's very simple - they come here and they kill us. In fact, they just did - in fact, they just killed 3000 people. And you're right - they will come from inside America - the hijackers had been living in America for quite some time before they did what they did.

Additionally, they're not going to drop a nuclear weapon from a plane, or fire it from a submarine. They're going to smuggle it in a suitcase, a cargo container, or some other such means. Nuclear weapons are actually rather small, and can be concealed quite easily.

Siamese, with all due respect, you strike me as someone who is in denial. This model of the world that you have, in which because someone is far away and therefore could never harm us, is just plain wrong. For quantitative proof of this, witness the fact that all the hijackers were from the middle east. They were born there, raised there, and trained there. You remind me of the America Firsters, who, during the second world war, said that we had no business fighting the Nazis or the Japanese (even *after* Pearl Harbor), since we were protected by 2 big oceans. It was just plain and simple denial, and I mean that in the most literal sense possible.

As for homeland security, it will be 10 years before we can control our boarders, and prevent terrorists from operating in the United States. What is needed is more than just a good defense. We must act politically, and when necessary, militarily.

I see that you like aphorisms, like Einstein's quote. I like aphorisms also. Here are a few of my favorites from some people who also knew a thing or two about the world:

"That all men should be brothers is the dream of people who have no brothers." ~ Charles Chincholles, Pensees de tout le monde, 1880

"War hath no fury like a noncombatant." ~ C.E. Montague, Disenchantment, 1922

"It takes in reality only one to make a quarrel. It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion." ~ W.R. Inge, Outspoken Essays, First Series, 1919

 

[siamese dream]

Siamese, there is a connection that you are not making.

You ask what threat that terrorists from the middle east could possibly pose to us. Surely, you must know that the terrorists September 11 came from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and were trained in Afghanistan. How can you argue that terrorists from the middle east can't harm us? It's very simple - they come here and they kill us. In fact, they just did - in fact, they just killed 3000 people. And you're right - they will come from inside America - the hijackers had been living in America for quite some time before they did what they did.

Well then, homeland security and security of our borders is what we need to work on. Who we allow to come into the United States, and what people are doing once they're here.

Yes, it's true that they are being trained in Afghanistan... the problem occurs when they're able to enter the united states and learn ways to attack from the inside.

If it's really going to take 10 years to control the borders and prevent terrorists from operating in the U.S., then how are we supposed to prevent more attacks? In the next 10 years, we could be attacked several more times if we aren't able to prevent terrorists from operating inside the U.S. They are dangerous, yes, when they're being trained in Afghanistan.... but not nearly as dangerous as when they get inside the country. That was my point, that we need better homeland security.

 

[shark]

We need to both protect our borders and take care of problems overseas.For at least the time being,offensive power is the most reliable way to help prevent further attacks.Any of our detractors will have the time and opportunity to move if we do not apply the pressure.
As far as creating new enemies by attacking current ones,wake up. These groups already hate us for various reasons,some providing lip service(Saudi arabia),but are involved in sponsoring terrorism.If you are going to let your fears dictate your behavior,why the hell not just turn muslim and make the terrorists happy as hell?Once in a while you have to kick an ass or two to prevent yours from getting kicked.Sorry,but that's just how the world is.One of the reasons for foreign attacks is to PREVENT attacks on our soil.There is little use in inviting them over for a duel in your backyard.
It would not surprise me if a scenario arose where terrorist states got hold of more advanced weapons,and I am not ruling out sales.The US was scrambling to keep the Russian nuclear weaponry out of third world hands after the USSR collapsed.Rogues in Russia,or outright sales from there or China,are definitely not out of the question,and subs are part of that arsenal.If we don't prepare in advance,we could set ourselves up again.I will never discount Russia becoming a belligerent again,either.The country is hardly stable,and it still has plenty of hardline communists around.
Concerning McCarthy,the biggest problem was that he couldn't prove he was right.The leftist crowd in Hollywood is proof enough.
It was brought up long ago in these threads.....you have to be able and willing to destroy potential enemies in order to help prevent your own destruction.There are too many other groups,states,etc. that do not share the peaceful world ideal,unless they control it.You
can bet your ass THAT will NOT be in our best interest.

 

[Oblesklk]

As far as creating new enemies by attacking current ones,wake up. These groups already hate us for various reasons

Yes, I think we do need to wake up. We've been asleep at the wheel for far too long.

I used to live in Scandinavia for awhile. Nice place. Their culture is quite a bit like our's, except perhaps more humanitarian/socialist. I still talk with a few people that I lived with or met during my stay there. They don't fear terrorist attacks on their soil. Not like we do. And yet they are European, enjoy the top end of the economic spectrum, are predominantly Christian, and are in very many ways, much like Americans. They would seemingly be the perfect targets of Muslim rage.

If that's the case, then why are Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns not worried about terrorists much? And do you personally believe they're in danger, and just don't know it yet? Or do you think it's primarily the USA, UK, and Israel that take the brunt of their wrath? And if so, why?

We, as a country, need to figure out why we're being singled out. Is it jealousy? We can do better than that...we're an educated nation. Jealousy does not cause a man to fly a plane into a building. The roots of hatred run deep, and we really need to take the upper hand and figure out how to kill those roots of anger, instead of inspiring new ones.

Don't get me wrong, I think we're doing our share to make that dream a reality. No matter what side of the fence you're on, I think everyone mostly agrees that spending taxpayer money on economic and social development in places like Afghanistan is not a waste of resources. The left may call it humanitarian aid, the right may call it an investment in our security. Whichever you call it, it's a step in the right direction.

 

[kurchatovium]

I think the Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns are not worried about the terrorists because they are only involved with themselves. Thats not necessarily a bad thing. The US gets involved, maybe not always when it should, in many things in many parts of the world. Thus I think the people that don't like the sides we pick get ticked off at us. Somewhere between total isolationism and total involvement lies a happy medium. Maybe the Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns need to be a little bit more involved in the world and we need to be a little less involved. Just my two cents though.

 

[Mike_Edward]

We, as a country, need to figure out why we're being singled out. Is it jealousy? We can do better than that...we're an educated nation. Jealousy does not cause a man to fly a plane into a building.

Sure it does.

Jealously has driven entire peoples to overthrow their governments, slaughter minority groups, maim civil liberties, and commit acts so horrific that flying planes into buildings pales by comparison.

I did touch on this in a previous post, but I'm happy to elaborate: What has happened in the Arab world is that a 'devil's pact' of sorts has been made between the fascist Arab governments, and the most radical elements of the societies that they oppress. The deal goes something like this - the radicals will be permitted to operate without intrusion or hindrance, and in return, they won't turn their rage towards those same host governments.

What do those host governments get? They get to maintain their sovereignty, and enjoy the riches and splendors that go along with being part of a tiny clique that runs a dictatorship. What do the radicals get? They get to put in place their version of how the world should be. In this case, it's a world without us (Americans).

When people ask, 'but why America?', there is often in that question a sort of implicit message that surely, we must have done something to deserve this (and by the way, I'm not saying that this is what Oblesklk was necessarily implying). Be careful with that line of reasoning. It's used to justify a lot of evil. I mean, surely the Jews must have done something to invite the wrath of the Nazis, right? And the Kurds and Armenians must have committed some sort of wrong to be persecuted so much for so long, right?

The reason why many of the Arab world hate us is because, like many Germans during the WWII, they've been brainwashed by the Arab media into believing that America is the root of all their problems.

Ever watch Al Jazzera? I have, accompanied by Arabic speakers. That it shows a point of view heavily lopsided towards the Palestinians doesn't surprise me, and it's not the problem. The problem is that there are many in the Arab world that for whom it's the *only* thing they watch. Ever read the Cairo Times? The Jordan Times? The Lebanon Star? They all have one message, and one topic - the evils of Israel, and it's closest ally, America. Problems with the government? The economy? Education? Housing? Hardly a mention.

Now, you may say to yourself, "Well, the American media is biased towards Israel, so what?" The difference is that regardless of the position of most media, there are a lot of points of view, and they are readily available. There are countless media outlets, both pro and con on either side. In fact, you don't need to look any further than the members of this forum.

So what, you say? What does this have to do with them coming over here and killing us? This is where the radicals come into play. With such fertile fields to recruit from, they have no problem finding recruits for their missions that the Arab governments so happily permit them to plot and execute.

Just because someone isn't being attacked or killed doesn't mean that they're inherently good, and just because someone is being attacked doesn't mean that they're inherently bad. There just is no position that can be taken that justifies the events of 9/11, at any level.

And I might add, of course the Scandinavians are not afraid of terrorist attacks - there are no targets in Scandinavia with equal economic, strategic, or symbolic value as those in the United States. What possible target in Scandinavia could match the impact and message sent to the West as the World Trade Center, or the Pentagon?

"It's a sin peculiar to man to hate his victim." ~ Tacitus, Agricola, early 2nd century

 

[Oblesklk]

there are no targets in Scandinavia with equal economic, strategic, or symbolic value as those in the United States. What possible target in Scandinavia could match the impact and message sent to the West as the World Trade Center, or the Pentagon?

Do forgive me, for it is late, and I'm a bit bleary eyed. I will respond to your post a bit more detailed than this, but your last point in the post caught my eye.

So is it the radicals have a problem with "the west" or just "America." That was kind of my point, is that much of Scandinavia is like us culturally speaking. There is little difference between our two nations, except for the extent of our involvemnent in foreign affairs.

Which is the reason, I'm surmising, in the difference of fear that we can experience. Because Scandinavia is very much "the west." And if the fundies had a problem with "the west" one would then logically conclude that Scandinavia would also have the same level of security and trepidation that we do. But they don't. Which leads me to believe it is something we are doing specifically that makes a subset of a population angry, not because we represent Christianity, or wealth, or power. Scandinavians hold considerable wealth as well, some political clout and are predominantly Christian.

So my belief is simply that countries that do stick to neutral, isolationist kinds of foreign policies will not have terrorist problems to the same extent that policing countries will. It's not really a judgement call. It's not good or bad, just an observation/correlation. And it may not even be a correct one.

Now that I said that, I've totally lost track of what the original argument was. Were we even arguing? Bah, I'll read the thread a bit more tomorrow 😀 Take care

[and, incidentially, as both a mod and forum member, thanks for keeping a potential land mine of a conversation civil amongst all parties]

 

[Oblesklk]

I think the Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns are not worried about the terrorists because they are only involved with themselves. Thats not necessarily a bad thing. The US gets involved, maybe not always when it should, in many things in many parts of the world. Thus I think the people that don't like the sides we pick get ticked off at us. Somewhere between total isolationism and total involvement lies a happy medium. Maybe the Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns need to be a little bit more involved in the world and we need to be a little less involved. Just my two cents though.

I'll be the first to admit I will never have all the answer to the world's problems...but I do think you're right here 😀

 

[shark]

The answers to why the west is hated by Arabs lies in a few different
areas.The radical sects of Islam want a return to the Mohammedan-time
domination of the world.Plain and simple,as the adherents to this form of Islam have stated so.

Much of Islamic countries hate the Jews for various reasons.As long as wea are an ally to Israel,we will be their enemy.Until they find another reason to hate us.

The extremist Moslems believe that Satan is the west,and that their religion supports the west's destruction.Couple this with the belief that dying in battle for Islam is a guaranteed ticket to heaven,and you get the idea there.

Mix in all the political problems such as oil,oppressive governments,
flat economies,basically ignorant populations,centuries-old squabbles,and the inability to shield the area from the modern world,
and you get a volatile mess.If you could build a wall around the place and forget it,most of the rest of us would be better off for it.

Sure,Scandinavia is part of the west.There is no way,however,that anything that occurs there will impact the world as much as what occurs in the US.We are the biggest,most dominant, and most influential nation on earth,whether it be military,trade,or foreign aid.The impact of Scandinavia just isn't that great.

I whole heartedly agree that the more isolationist countries tend to have fewer problems.Try explaining that to those who think we should be out involving ourselves in every world-problem-solving venture known to man.Foreign aid this,United Nations that,you get the idea.All this "we have to help the world"idealism is poorly thought out.A large part of the world doesn't want out help(Somalia), another part wants us dead(Islam extremists),and others want to rule over us,as well as the rest of the world.Also consider those who we do help and they stick it up our asses at the first opportunity.

I firmly believe the biggest reason we got hit is because we(our government) allowed us to weaken.Witness how many terrorist attacks here before Clinton, and how many during and immediately after his administration.It's no secret that our military and foreign affairs capabilities were drastically weakened during his administration. And before we start hearing whining about 9/11 being during Bush's term,it was within a year of Bush taking office,took at least two years to plan and execute,and was encouraged by past failures to react to terrorist strikes.We were seen as weak,and were taken advantage of.You have to protect your own ass,like it or not.No matter how lovely you see the world could be,there are plenty who see it another way,and don't mind bumping you off to achieve their version.

Personally,I think Bush's people better get on the stick and start doing alot more to protect our asses.They've got at least 8 years to compensate for, and our detractors aren't waiting.

 

[Haltickling]

The answers to why the west is hated by Arabs lies in a few different
areas.The radical sects of Islam want a return to the Mohammedan-time
domination of the world.Plain and simple,as the adherents to this form of Islam have stated so.

Much of Islamic countries hate the Jews for various reasons.As long as wea are an ally to Israel,we will be their enemy.Until they find another reason to hate us.

The extremist Moslems believe that Satan is the west,and that their religion supports the west's destruction.Couple this with the belief that dying in battle for Islam is a guaranteed ticket to heaven,and you get the idea there.

Mix in all the political problems such as oil,oppressive governments,
flat economies,basically ignorant populations,centuries-old squabbles,and the inability to shield the area from the modern world,
and you get a volatile mess.If you could build a wall around the place and forget it,most of the rest of us would be better off for it.

Sure,Scandinavia is part of the west.There is no way,however,that anything that occurs there will impact the world as much as what occurs in the US.We are the biggest,most dominant, and most influential nation on earth,whether it be military,trade,or foreign aid.The impact of Scandinavia just isn't that great.

Hey, I thought this would never happen, but I really agree with shark here! 😛

The rest of his post is US party politics, in which I won't get involved. But allow me one additional remark on Scandinavia: They're not completely isolationist. They participate a lot in UN peace missions as well as in OSCE Human Rights Control, part of them are in the EU. They participate in world politics on a small but important scale, because their military power is deliberately small. And they don't tell the rest of the world what to do... 😎

 

[Neutron]

For Those Who Believe..

The US would not be attacked if we just tried to negotiate with terrorists or others whose view is out of line with at least basic norms of man. You're wrong. The US has went the isolationist route in the past. And both times it has drawn us into World Wars, AND got the World Trade Center attacked. Bin Laden attacked because he didn;t believe we'd retaliate. Negotiation ONLY oworks when the other side believes you have something THEY want that YOU are willing to protect. History teaches us this.
The very best thing we could have done is exactly what we did. Dismantle a country in 6 weeks. Every other country in the world took notice. Also note NO ONE is protesting out target list, they're just biding time while they figure out how to explain to their people why they have no choice in the matter.
Historically the US had no real interest in the Middle East and believe it or not, the US initially went there at THEIR bidding. They were scared of the Soviets. Fact of the matter is none of the countries there are historical AND there is no such thing as a Palestinian State. It's a myth, It never existed in History. It's equivalent to what the US Called Mingo Indians. You'll hear the name mentioned but all the Mingo was is a loose confederation and village of various Eastern Indians and White Trash who were kicked out of their villages. In other words drop outs. Yet you'll here people in the US claim to be descendants of the Mingo Tribe. I put it to you, Have you ever called the Homeless a tribe?
Much of whatis happening over in the Middle East is due to the way the Brits divided the region when they gave up the empire. They did it in a manner that would ensure they could always get oil and other essentials they couldn't get elsewhere. So they made sure no country got a a huge majority of anything, in regions where people thought alike politically, the Brits ensured they couldn't get a majority religiously. And on and on. In this way they could always ensure they had at least one or two countries who would ally with Britain. They wanted strife. Which is why they recognized Isreal. Intially the US wasn't going to recognize Isreal. Truman believed it was wrong to creat a non historical country and believed there was no true evidence to support a Jewish State. At the final hour the US did recognize Isreal. Why? Because they knew the Russian Bear was developing the bomb and they wanted a a counter for Russian aggression in the region. NOTE at the same time the US did a hell of a lot to develope the Arab countries too. The worlds largest Water desalination plants were built there. By the US. For Free. Most industry there was built by the US. Much for free.

The Middle East is the biggest group of NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) in the world. Ask them if they support a Palestinian State. They'll say HELL YEAH the US should help establish one. Then ask if it's ok if they give up a little land to help get it started and they'll all say, We didn't mean here, stop interfering.

Tightening our borders won't help. It's not realistic. Showing you're wiling to bomb a country back into the stone age to remove the government that harbors terrorists is the correct way to go, UNTIL these governments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they will prosecute and prevent terrorism. Until then, we do what we need to do. Show them, if they don't support us, we will remove any government from power and turn their country into a parking lot.


Tron

 

[Eztickle]

why can't we all just get along in the world..

Exactly that! Why can't we all just get along in the world, and stop all the hatred and violence that opposes us all? No matter what race or creed we all are.The reason the arabs did atack us is because there culture suggest that they were trained to hate us the answer to all these questions is simply not war! but peace and a new way for the whole world to reflect on things and culture. If the arabs were not born into thinking that the u.s. was the enemy than they never would have attack us to beginn with. so I say to all of you the answer is to form a new form of democracy for the arabs and to help out third worlds. Unfortantly, this won't happen anytime soon because our goverment is to hell bent on destuction. Mind you, I'm all about defending the country, but not when other logical political action could take place first..

Ez..

 

[shark]

It won't happen any time soon because of the many different facets of politics in the middle east.Any of these countries could start a democracy tomorrow if they were interested.The radical Muslims aren't interested,the numerous leaders aren't interested,and the only peaceful option left for us is to sit and wait for them to change their minds.Not only improbable,but there are even worse parties that could take power in several of these countries.

The only other course is to intercede,which is not tolerable to these nations,or they would have already asked us to do so.Unless you want our "hell bent on destruction" government to intercede in a more radical manner,this is the open option.

Middle east peace is not forthcoming because the politics of the region won't allow it,not because we haven't been able to install some utopian wet dream of a system there.For those in power,or those seeking it,peace and democracy just aren't in the cards at this time.

 

[qjakal]

Peace...

There can be no peace when one side wants to fight...papraphrased from some old philosopher. Makes sense...you will only tolerate someone smacking you in the head so many times before you HAVE to fight. BTW, Shark...nice pic! I see you're another member of the goatee and correct haircut Club! Twas like looking in a mirror..lol..Q

 

[shark]

Great minds even look alike lol.

 

[Strelnikov]

More on sonar...

Newport News Daily Press: August 5, 2002
Navy: Low-Frequency Sonar Noises Not To Blame For Strandings
By The Associated Press

NORFOLK, Va. -- Navy officials say recent strandings of whales and dolphins on beaches along the Atlantic coast can't be blamed on low-level sonar testing because the submarine detection system hasn't been used for years.

The low-frequency sounds, used by ships to detect submarines at distances of several miles, have been blamed for whale deaths in the past. But the Navy said that the mass stranding of pilot whales on Cape Cod last week and dolphins on Virginia's Eastern Shore on July 28 could not be attributed to sonar devices.

"We have not operated the system since scientific research was conducted in 1998," said Lt. Cmdr. Pauline Storum, a Navy spokeswoman.
A team of scientists at the Virginia Marine Science Museum Stranding Team have removed the skulls of the beached dolphins to determine if acoustic trauma was to blame for driving the dolphins ashore. A symptom of acoustic distress could be burst blood vessels around the eyes, although a marine-mammal researcher from the Smithsonian Institution who accompanied the team, Charles Potter, said no signs of trauma were initially evident.

"My guess would be that this pod of animals were chasing fish at high tide and found themselves trapped inside a series of sandbars," Potter said. "In final desperation or becoming confused or weakened, they went on the beach."




Strelnikov

 

[JoBelle]

Indeed Strel,

Thanks for posting that. As irritated as I get with the powers that be, I do like facts being shared!

If one looks at the history, it is obvious these recent beachings ARE unrelated. The Cape Cod area has a history of being a place where whales "get caught at low tide." There is an organization of trained volunteers in that area for just such events.There are a few places in the world where repeat beachings occur....this is one of them. Too bad we don't know why.
Joby