Tickling/Religion/Guilt & Evil...

[dvnc]

faith versus religion

Hee hee! Yeah, yeah, Q... We all know you WISH we disagreed more! Hard to have similiar notions as a scruffy former left-coaster!

Religion versus faith. The Bible doesn't mention specifically, anywhere, that CHURCH is required. Faith in one God is required, as is the case for all monotheistic faiths.

Religion requires churches, which require money. Money is part of the problem. Sadly, it always becomes part of the problem. It's a matter of time before SOMEONE figures out that he (or she) who controls the church controls the money. See the Catholic Church during the Renaissence period for examples of a complete corruption of a faith's church.

The faith is a good one. The church, however, wasn't questionable. It was BAD. It's better now, but also better at hiding it's flaws. Several centuries will do that. Ask BigJim about organizations training for centuries in hiding... 😉

Religion also requires social control and dictums. Faith in a higher power, and spirituality, and the desire to harm no one without defending one's own life (or one's family's lives), doesn't NEED a religion, or it's churches.

Churches are a social ordering, a means for the socially less adept or fearful to congregate. Churches CAN help a community, too, which confuses the issue.

The problem is that a church is as good or bad as it's most persuasive members.

Alright. Discuss. 🙂

 

[BigJim]

Re: faith versus religion

It's better now, but also better at hiding it's flaws. Several centuries will do that. Ask BigJim about organizations training for centuries in hiding... 😉

Well, it all started when...

HEY WAKE UP YOU BUGGERS!!! I'm not THAT boring!

 

[BigJim]

Interesting comments from DVNC and Q there. I find both you guys pretty on the mark, even if you do have to have this thing about pretending to argue with each other. 😛

Whether someone believes indulging their sexual feelings to be a sin isn't dependant on them belonging to any particular faith. Be they a denomination of Christian, Jewish, Bhuddist, Muslim, Zoroastrian or Hindu, they can be either way. People of all those faiths can be either totally screwed up about their internal chemistry, or completely at peace about it. That's why someone's religion matters to me as little as what colour their skin is; it's their attitude and personality that counts.

God bless the balanced.

 

[qjakal]

Guilt

I *believe* one of the original intentions of the thread (and it WAS 3 years ago, so don't quote me) was to discuss the fact that most religions would entail having the faithful feel guilty about a deviant fascination such as ours regarding tickling and its associated fetishes and practices, such as bondage/foot worship/et al. Having left organized religion behind long ago I wondered if perhaps part of the reasoning for doing so, subconsciously or otherwise, had to do with the intolerance of most major religions towards what was essentially a large portion of my pysche.

As for *pretending* to argue with that left coaster of ill repute, we do indeed disagree on many topics, but we respect each other enough to do so without closing either our minds or the topic to the slight possibility that the other ones POV may have merit. As I've said before in other threads, I'd disagree similarly with the 25 year old version of myself on many issues that the last few decades have brought insight of a different nature to my attention. I find that as I get older my opinions are less set in concrete due to having already found it necessary to adjust a few to reality...it happens to nearly everyone to some degree.

The churches are utilizing their money even more wastefully nowdays, as a tool to hush up many of the scars they've inflicted upon society lo these many centuries....

Apparently dvnc thinks they have persuasive leadership...*shrug*..I think they have mediocre middle management with delusions of sanctity. They're too big to corral and they have a death grip on the older crowd among us, who are the most politically active and richest demographic. The baby boomers are entering their declining years now, and the size of that group will influence the structure of the country for the next 2-3 decades. Since I'm part of the group, you KNOW we're going to have trouble...lol.

Q

 

[BigJim]

Made a few friends I'll always value, includin' two of the best debatin' opponents I've known.

Q and Jo? OR is it Q and Steve?

 

[Amnesiac]

End of the Line?

I think the main reason no one gets over this stuff is because everything in the Bible and various other religious works is written by different people over different time periods and translated in various fashions...on top of that, interpretation of what these records means can be altered or influenced by culture, life experience and, as we've seen, politics. We know historically that Pontius Pilate was a tyrant and not the morally-troubled softie in The Passion of the Christ and certain Biblical passages...so we know that political pressure can alter records that affect the world forever.

We already know that the Bush administration has suppressed a lot of research that runs contrary to it's goals, so imagine what might have been in the past with RELIGIOUS documents! Oy!

Essentially though, belief in the Almighty/Creator/etc. is probably the most sensitive and pivotal issue in the human world and the damndest thing about it is we don't have what we need to figure shit out. The Qu'ran speaks very highly about the spiritual value and inalienable rights about women in some passages...and converts them into loathsome property in others. With discrepancies like this, the best thing would be to get access to all the records and then consult with the transcibers...but since they've been dead for centuries, EVERYBODY who ever had an actual link to ANYTHING is unreachable for comment. And we make up for this by assuming that since the authors wrote it, they must have either been there or been right next to the source and so the word is good enough.

NOBODY's word has ever been good enough when you're dealing with global issues...you need facts or else decisions are going to be made that affect the lives of billions over the course of millennia...like we've seen thus far.

The main reason for all the bullshit that happens concerning religion DOES happen is because people are scared of making mistakes. The Almighty has a reputation for being inconceivably intolerant of skeptics and immeasureably vindictive to minor offenders in the afterlife, so when working with that, the familiar is considered a safe bet when faced with such consequences, even if they DO seem nonsensical because Biblical texts are filled with Divine Loyalty tests.

Now, as far as the evil and guilt thing attached to pleasure like tickling is a fairly simple deduction. Whether faith-based or organized, religion still requires input from their foundation records, and one of the major things that the records indicate is that a strong connection with God is required in order to achieve Divine (insert euphamism here). Depending on who you consult, anything that can distract you from thinking about God or trying to relate to Him is inherently dangerous; the quality of "evil" is a dichotomous one and seems to fit philosophy rather than theology, but essentially the idea works like this:

If that which distracts from God is bad humans
And "evil" is bad for humans
And if pleasure distracts from God
Than pleasure is evil

The variations on this depends on who you ask...and that depends on the amount of alterations that have been made to the criteria like I mentioned above. Catholics and Baptists (just to name a few) have different views.

Granted, you could talk the ears off a brass monkey about the implications of man's inherent worth when considering God's need to be ever-present, so I won't talk about them here, but just consider them for yourselves when continuing this thread.

The point is, we don't REALLY know what to do and since faith does not require proof (unless you're trying to convicne someone by tying together loose coincidental events), we all basically just end up saying "Well, since we don't need proof, we don't need to work on this too hard" and that's where we get into trouble.

So to argue about whether tickling is akin to sexuality and whether platonic or sexual variations are sinful is stupid because NOBODY KNOWS! The people who did know are dead and the only one left who would know is not exactly accessible on an interview level. Tickling is fun to some, not to others and the fact that people can shut off their ticklishness when it's unwanted should say something about one's ability to be "evil" by its exploitation.

 

[dvnc]

For debatin', BigJim, it was Q and Strel, 'cause their views and mine collided at points, and their debates on such were both civil and illuminating. While I still disagree with some topics, and aspects of others, I found their information so compelling as to view their information neutrally, constantly, to find out if there's something to it that I missed.

Now, don't go gettin' soft on me. Them two were just my favs in this topic. You're still the Illuminati king of debates, far as I'm concerned, brother. 😉

A 25-year-old version of Q... now THAT would have been fun to see!

Amnesiac_m(pc) covers the whole 'if it ain't God it's sinnin'" argument pretty solidly. Much of the hardline churches cover that. Can't believe a maker would micromanage his creation so completely. "Hey! That ant went LEFT!" *scrunch!* "Feel my wrath!"

It IS sorta unbelievable.

His point that there's no hard proof is the crux. Is there a God? Several? Prove it concretely. Show me. Faith is a belief, and folks will believe in something that uplifts them. Whether or not there is, was or will be a higher power, the belief is the main reason men aren't subjugating women and children (as was done in times past), and why we don't simply KILL whatever behaves in a manner we don't enjoy (witness the witless killing folks for behaving against their creed).

Q, I find their leadership and organization is compelling, not persuasive. Faith is persuasive. Provides solutions you can't otherwise have. Religious leaders compel folks to believe that not following THEIR rules and paying church tithes will result in a damned hereafter. Pay up and shut up or suffer eternally. Yup. That's loving, alright. 😉

Yeah, I do agree wit' Q, most of the time, these days. I'm getting to that more open-minded oldness he described. I can hear myself wrinkle, now, too. 😉 It's like rice crispies in milk, that sound...

They'll survive the boomers, Q. They stayed around after that debacle in the Renaissence period. They're here for the long haul.

Jim, y'aren't boring, ya big green galoot. Yer just a font of info in that area. I know of only one other fellow with so much hard data on that group, and he's, well, underground these days. He'll resurface again, and get through my spam-sensors, under an assumed name or somesuch.

What? Doesn't everyone have friends in hiding? Geez, how boring. 😉 So I have a few screwy friends. I moderate a board for tickling enthusiasts, too. Go ahead and point fingers. 😉

Q

 

[BigJim]

Now, don't go gettin' soft on me. Them two were just my favs in this topic. You're still the Illuminati king of debates, far as I'm concerned, brother. 😉

lol The only one really. No-one else can be arsed to post anything detailed about it.

A 25-year-old version of Q... now THAT would have been fun to see!

26 as of the third of this month. 😀😀😀

Amnesiac_m(pc) covers the whole 'if it ain't God it's sinnin'" argument pretty solidly. Much of the hardline churches cover that. Can't believe a maker would micromanage his creation so completely. "Hey! That ant went LEFT!" *scrunch!* "Feel my wrath!"

It IS sorta unbelievable.

Totally so. Sounds more like the Devil than a loving God. That's why I coined the maxim...
"People say that the Devil's greatest deception was convincing mankind he didn't exist. I would say that the Devil's greatest deception was inventing religion and calling himself God."

I think every person is a piece of God. Unique and individual and yet part of the total Whole, (So why should skin colour matter precisely?) and yet indivisible from it. To cause negative feeling is therefore the only sin. No particular act is sinful; only the vibration the act creates is. Telling a lie can be sparing a good friend's feelings on one hand and committing multi-million dollar fraud on the other. Enjoying your fetish can be a nice as two ticklephiles meeting for fun, or as sick as a paedophile raping a child. If you're causing someone pain (including yourself) then chances are you're blotting the jolly old Akashic Record. If you're creating happiness between people then that halo shines a bit brighter. This way no one has to be afraid of their inclinations.

His point that there's no hard proof is the crux. Is there a God? Several? Prove it concretely. Show me. Faith is a belief, and folks will believe in something that uplifts them. Whether or not there is, was or will be a higher power, the belief is the main reason men aren't subjugating women and children (as was done in times past), and why we don't simply KILL whatever behaves in a manner we don't enjoy (witness the witless killing folks for behaving against their creed).

Define "God" and define concrete. 😛

Seriously, I think anyone who seeks will find... something. (Even if it just is peace of mind; doesn't have to be a declaration of veracity from the archangel Gabriel.) There are beings in the non-physical whose power and magnitude would be regarded as deity-like by most; of that I'm sure. Do I think of them as gods? No. They're just like us, but more evolved. There isn't a human being who isn't going to be just like that sooner or later. As such, these "beings" are as much a part of Infinity as we are. Perhaps we could regard the relationship between them and us as being like teacher and pupil.

Jim, y'aren't boring, ya big green galoot. Yer just a font of info in that area. I know of only one other fellow with so much hard data on that group, and he's, well, underground these days. He'll resurface again, and get through my spam-sensors, under an assumed name or somesuch.

Dave, I even put MYSELF to sleep from time to time.

Someone else has as much data as me? I like him already!

What? Doesn't everyone have friends in hiding? Geez, how boring. 😉 So I have a few screwy friends. I moderate a board for tickling enthusiasts, too. Go ahead and point fingers. 😉

I'm constantly in hiding from myself and I moderate a tickling board too. I ain't pointing nowhere! lol

 

[dvnc]

I'm always impressed that such clear thought and sentiment come forth from a mind just reaching 25, brother. I can recall, with irritating clarity, when old guys told me that one can't wise up until they've aged long enough, like some fool wine or cheese.

Yer a bright deviant, BigJim. Gonna be cool t'meet ya one o' these days. I'm bound t'be across the Atlantic again someday!

 

[BigJim]

Where's Jo's post gone? I was just about to reply to it.



Anyway, from what I remember of it two or three days ago, it was pretty much on the money. It's nice to hear that people can meet in a church enviroment in such a way that only unconditional love for each other is on the agenda. Shame more churches aren't like that. As for not being a debator, well you're a much wiser person than me Joby-Wan; as is Steve, going from his post in some other thread in the last few days. I sometimes think I go through life looking for trouble. lol Still, wouldn't be as much fun otherwise, would it? lol

 

[BigJim]

I'm always impressed that such clear thought and sentiment come forth from a mind just reaching 25, brother. I can recall, with irritating clarity, when old guys told me that one can't wise up until they've aged long enough, like some fool wine or cheese.

Yer a bright deviant, BigJim. Gonna be cool t'meet ya one o' these days. I'm bound t'be across the Atlantic again someday!

The body is in it's mid-20's, the mind is much older and hornier. (Hornier as in twisted and gnarled incidentally. lol) 😉

Would be equally cool to mett you D. 🙂 I pray to gawd that it's at a BAST gathering.


Later peeps.