Ticklish Meetings

[Redmage]

I know what you mean~and I think people's opinions on this are very subjective. "Purposely hiding" and "not telling 100%" are too very different things IMHO. I mean, who does that (tell 100%), and who wants someone who does? Not me. Are you happy? Is your partner happy? Then, what of it? Too many people here give way too much info. A simple "I'm going out with friends for a few" ought to suffice in a secure relationship.
XOXO

It depends on circumstances.

If "I'm going out with a friend" is understood by BOTH parties to mean "I'm going out window shopping/having lunch/seeing a movie," or something similar, then it's all good. However if the partner staying home understands it to mean that, but the partner going out understands it to mean "I'll be spending a few hours robbing a bank with my buddy," or "I'll be tied to someone else's bed this afternoon," then we have a problem. Sure, that's still "going out with a friend," but clearly there's something there that your partner would want to know about.

It's not important to tell your partner everything. However it IS important to tell your partner everything that he or she would want to know. It's completely possible to deceive someone simply by not telling them the whole truth, or by conveying a false impression through incomplete (but technically true) statements.

Here's a good test: If you're saying "I'm going out with a friend" or some similar shorthand because saying more than that would upset your partner, then you're deceiving your partner.

 

[Deadsea7777]

Well the question is...if your wife had a fetish that you didn't participate in or were turned off by... Would you find it okay to let her indulge her fetish with another man or a friend of hers???

that's what I would call "direct to the point not messing about" 😛 😛

 

[drew70]

It depends on circumstances.

If "I'm going out with a friend" is understood by BOTH parties to mean "I'm going out window shopping/having lunch/seeing a movie," or something similar, then it's all good. However if the partner staying home understands it to mean that, but the partner going out understands it to mean "I'll be spending a few hours robbing a bank with my buddy," or "I'll be tied to someone else's bed this afternoon," then we have a problem. Sure, that's still "going out with a friend," but clearly there's something there that your partner would want to know about.

It's not important to tell your partner everything. However it IS important to tell your partner everything that he or she would want to know. It's completely possible to deceive someone simply by not telling them the whole truth, or by conveying a false impression through incomplete (but technically true) statements.

Here's a good test: If you're saying "I'm going out with a friend" or some similar shorthand because saying more than that would upset your partner, then you're deceiving your partner.

No, that's simply not true, Red. Deception involves convincing somebody of a non-truth. Steph is on the money. "I'm going out with a friend" is not an untruth and therefore not deception. You are equating vagueness with deception, which is not by any means the same thing. The spouse can request more detail at which point the choice must be made whether to be honest or not.

My wife hates it when I stop by McDonalds for any meal. Consequently, I don't blab to her every time I eat at McDonalds, even though she wants to know. Since when is a successful marriage dependent on telling your spouse everything you do of which he/she doesn't approve? In my opinion, demanding such 100% accountability is what kills many marriages. There's nothing wrong with having a few secrets here and there.

 

[Redmage]

Suppose you said to your partner, "I'm just going to have a few with Frank," then went over to Frank's and had a few lines of cocaine, or a few hits of methamphetamine, instead of a few beers. Would that be deceiving your partner?

Suppose you said "I'm just going out with a friend," and then went out with a friend to visit a brothel, where you both had sex with prostitutes. Would that be deceiving your partner?

It seems not. As long as your partner doesn't think to ask "A few what?" or "Where are the two of you going?" but instead trusts you enough to make an innocent assumption on your behalf, you're not deceiving her. Clearly, she's deceiving herself by giving herself a false impression and not thinking there might be some important detail you're leaving out.

It's all her fault, obviously. It's just lucky that that sort of self-deception is what keeps marriages healthy, right?

Right. That's one healthy marriage we're talking about, for sure.

 

[drew70]

Suppose you said to your partner, "I'm just going to have a few with Frank," then went over to Frank's and had a few lines of cocaine, or a few hits of methamphetamine, instead of a few beers. Would that be deceiving your partner?

No, it wouldn't. But there are other reasons why doing such things are bad for the marriage. Any time one does something that risks imprisonment, or takes a clear toll on one's health, it jeopardizes your ability to keep your life-long commitment to your spouse, particularly (but not exclusively) when one is the predominant breadwinner.

Suppose you said "I'm just going out with a friend," and then went out with a friend to visit a brothel, where you both had sex with prostitutes. Would that be deceiving your partner?

No, it isn't. But again, there are other reasons why doing so is bad for the marriage. A violation is a violation regardless of whether or not the spouse knows about it. Sooner or later the wife (or husband) is likely to ask, "Have you ever had extra-marital sex during our X years of marriage?" Even if the question is never asked, once you cross that line, you can never again truthfully say, "I've been faithful to my spouse."

It seems not. As long as your partner doesn't think to ask "A few what?" or "Where are the two of you going?" but instead trusts you enough to make an innocent assumption on your behalf, you're not deceiving her.

That's one reason the partner might not ask. Another might be that he/she simply doesn't care or doesn't want to know.

Clearly, she's deceiving herself by giving herself a false impression and not thinking there might be some important detail you're leaving out.

It's all her fault, obviously. It's just lucky that that sort of self-deception is what keeps marriages healthy, right?

Right. That's one healthy marriage we're talking about, for sure.

Let's try real hard to remember that this discussion is about TICKLING outside the established relationship and not about going to Frank's for drug abuse or going to a brothel for extra-marital sex. Your analogies simply don't apply here. Tickling is not an intrinsically sexual act. One can do it completely clothed and in public.

Let me ask a couple of questions. If I decide to spend my lunch hour at the local shopping mall, and sit in a high traffic area and watch pretty girls walk by, is that something you feel I'm honor-bound to tell my wife? I can tell you that this would be nothing she's going to want to hear, even though it doesn't violate our agreed-upon codes of marital conduct.

If I find my wife's sister more sexually appealing than I do my wife, is that information that I owe it to her to tell? Don't you believe that there's such a thing as "too much honesty?"

 

[LindyHopper]

Look, whatever your opinion is on the technical definition of the word "deception," avoiding telling your spouse about extracurriular tickling activities because you know it would upset them is failing to act in the spirit of an honest and trustworthy partner.

Let's say they find out, somehow, what you've been up to. You tell them, "I never lied to you honey, I said I was going out with friends, and that's what I was doing. I just never told you we were taking our clothes off and tickling each other, because you never asked!" Whether or not you believe, in your heart even, that you've actively decieved him or her, that conversation's not going anywhere happy. However you try to weasel out of it, you've violated their trust.

 

[Redmage]

All righty, then. Anyone who seriously believes that "just failing to mention" a visit to a brothel or a crackhouse is NOT deceiving one's partner is living in an interesting but far-removed universe. To any such person, I would like to suggest an experiment:

ASK your partner if he or she would want to know about an afternoon spent with a hooker, or even a "date" involving bondage and tickling with someone else. That should clarify the issues nicely. After all, if they share your ideas of a "healthy marriage" and "too much honesty" then chances are they'll reply "No, honey, that'd be too much information for me." In that case, more power to you.

Of course, if you don't really, truly believe that they'd reply in that vein, then I'd say there's a good chance that you know you're violating their trust by omitting such information.

 

[steph]

LOL! Thanks Drew~that's an interesting point you make hon. There's definitely "too much" with some of these people. Let me bottom line it for those wasting their time trying to make others feel bad. It's my adventure (read:life), not yours and I'm going play it out as I see fit. At the end of the day, I answer to two people, God and myself. Everyone else can kiss my ass. 😛
XOXO

If I find my wife's sister more sexually appealing than I do my wife, is that information that I owe it to her to tell? Don't you believe that there's such a thing as "too much honesty?"

 

[drew70]

Look, whatever your opinion is on the technical definition of the word "deception," avoiding telling your spouse about extracurriular tickling activities because you know it would upset them is failing to act in the spirit of an honest and trustworthy partner.

Who determines what constitutes the "spirit" of an honest and trustworthy partner? In my experience, it's the couples themselves. I've known couples in which the wife gets horrendously upset if her husband even looks at an attractive woman. Does this necessitate a "confession" from him every time he engages in extra-curricular girl-watching? In my mind it certainly does not, but others might vehemently disagree. This is why such issues need to be ironed out at the onset of a relationship.

Let's say they find out, somehow, what you've been up to. You tell them, "I never lied to you honey, I said I was going out with friends, and that's what I was doing. I just never told you we were taking our clothes off and tickling each other, because you never asked!" Whether or not you believe, in your heart even, that you've actively decieved him or her, that conversation's not going anywhere happy. However you try to weasel out of it, you've violated their trust.

First, I couldn't help notice that you threw in "taking our clothes off" along with the tickling, no doubt in an effort to vilify the participants. I'd be curious to know if your "violation of trust" principle applies if the tickling had taken place with fully clothed participants?

Secondly, before any activity can be deemed a violation of trust, the terms of that trust must be mutually agreed upon. Generally in normal marriages, sex with other partners is presumed to be taboo without needing mention. But there are other activities that aren't so clear cut. What about going to lunch with a co-worker of the opposite sex? Some would say that's harmless, and not a violation of trust, whereas others would say that it was a date, and therefore a violation. What about dancing? At what point between spread-out fast dancing and body-grinding slow dancing does it become inappropriate, if at all? And last but not least, what about tickling? Sure, nude tickling or tickling of private parts is pretty easy to flag as uncool. But what about fully clothed, non-erotic tickle torture? In my opinion, it just doesn't automatically qualify as a violation.

Unless you've both agreed that dancing, or going to lunch, or tickling is something that neither of you want the other to do, there is no reason to consider any of them a violation of trust. In cases of doubt, it's always a good idea to ask oneself how one would feel if one's spouse were in the same situation. In my experience, what builds trust is none of the above, but rather that the partner consistently remains emotionally, sexually, and financially commited to their spouse and family, not what he/she does recreationally.

 

[drew70]

LOL! Thanks Drew~that's an interesting point you make hon. There's definitely "too much" with some of these people. Let me bottom line it for those wasting their time trying to make others feel bad. It's my adventure (read:life), not yours and I'm going play it out as I see fit. At the end of the day, I answer to two people, God and myself. Everyone else can kiss my ass. 😛
XOXO

Ah, Steph. You have a gift for cutting through the BS right to the heart of the matter. That's really what it boils down to. Keeping to your own set of values and not letting others (even spouses) force them on you.

 

[steph]

Hee hee! That's sweet of you Drew. Yanno I calls 'em like I sees 'em. And people never stop to think maybe they DON'T know all the details of a situation. And yet they sit in judgment of others as if they do, which is a shame, I think. Nothing ever gets solved.
XOXO

Ah, Steph. You have a gift for cutting through the BS right to the heart of the matter. That's really what it boils down to. Keeping to your own set of values and not letting others (even spouses) force them on you.

 

[tickledgirl]

Hee hee! That's sweet of you Drew. Yanno I calls 'em like I sees 'em. And people never stop to think maybe they DON'T know all the details of a situation. And yet they sit in judgment of others as if they do, which is a shame, I think. Nothing ever gets solved.
XOXO

If this was just everyone describing their lives, then you'd be dead on. Who are we to tell you how to run your life?

But at the top of the thread there was a request for advice. Lots of people gave advice. You described what works for you in your situation. Good for you. But it seems fair to assume that by posting here you intended that as general advice for tbird01450. And he's presumably not in your situation. (If he was, he wouldn't be asking for advice about keeping secrets.) While that might work wonderfully for you, I think it's giving pretty dangerous advice to hand out to someone who's trying to figure out what to do. I think that's what Red was saying, and it's certainly my opinion.

 

[Highway101]

I have to disagree. I think everyone was doing more than offering advice. There was alot of self-promotion going on and the snide remarks were going in many directions.

Sadly, the best advice anyone could have given the original poster: Don't seek advice on relationships on this forum.

 

[Redmage]

LOL! Thanks Drew~that's an interesting point you make hon. There's definitely "too much" with some of these people. Let me bottom line it for those wasting their time trying to make others feel bad. It's my adventure (read:life), not yours and I'm going play it out as I see fit. At the end of the day, I answer to two people, God and myself. Everyone else can kiss my ass. 😛
XOXO

Some might take that as an invitation, Steph. 😉

Seriously, I'm all about letting people live their lives. This is a discussion thread, though, so it's likely that topic will be discussed here. This isn't about "letting anyone force their values on you." The Gods know I'm not going to make anyone else's decisions for them, but I do think it's useful to get clear on just what we're deciding.

It's not even about spouses "forcing their values" on one another. It's about each spouse saying to the other, "for this relationship to work, I need to be able to trust you," and then about how to respect or not respect that trust. I don't think it's tenable to say that just leaving certain vital information out of what we tell our partners isn't "really" lying to them.

If the decision is that deceiving one's partner is the best course of action under the circumstances, then so be it. That's each person's decision to make. But it's important to be clear that that is what we're talking about, especially on a thread where someone else has asked for advice.

 

[LindyHopper]

Who determines what constitutes the "spirit" of an honest and trustworthy partner? In my experience, it's the couples themselves. I've known couples in which the wife gets horrendously upset if her husband even looks at an attractive woman. Does this necessitate a "confession" from him every time he engages in extra-curricular girl-watching? In my mind it certainly does not, but others might vehemently disagree. This is why such issues need to be ironed out at the onset of a relationship.

The main point I'm making is that as far as I can tell, people who keep their extramarital tickling secret from their partners did not iron out that issue in their relationship. Discussing, even once, "I like tickling, I enjoy doing (fill in anything from quick clothed tickles to naked bondage and sex), is that okay with you, and do you want me to tell you about it?" is what it takes to iron it out. Skipping over that step and doing what you personally think should be fine, without letting your spouse in on it, violates a foundation of mutual trust. And to answer your other question, yes, I do feel that clothed tickling qualifies as such a violation, if your partner has told you that's how they feel, or if by keeping it a secret, you never gave them an opportunity to express their opinion on the matter.

All couples need to determine for themselves what's okay to do with other people, and what's not. We of all people know that couples don't all draw the line in the same place! 😀 I don't believe that anything is "automatically" a violation, be it looking at other women, dancing, tickling, or sex. But a failure to come to an agreement necessitates either fighting or hiding things from your partner. Everyone is free to make their own choices, but I know I wouldn't want to be on either side of such a relationship. See, I'm simply applying your rule about putting myself in the other person's shoes. 😉

 

[steph]

(snickers and bops him on the head) ALL right you!
XOXO

Some might take that as an invitation, Steph. 😉

PS~I guess what I mean is, I think people assume that only one person in the relationship might have their "thing." What if both did? As I mentioned before, I've always been one of those who doesn't WANT to know everything. If you're a close part of my life, I already trust you, it comes with the package. And now Sir, I shall take my leave of this thread~it reminds me of watching my baby dog chase his tail in circles!