Undesired Tickling/Touching, Please Read

[Kalba]

I'm not saying everyone who tickles a stranger is committing assault

Presumably if one is assaulting others, the only treatment will come under legal duress...

Rook,

You misunderstand. I am not saying everyone who tickles a stranger is committing assault. Clearly there are circumstances that mitigate or aggravate the tickling (e.g. the stranger has told you once she doesn't want to be tickled). I'm only saying if one tickles a stranger in a way that constitutes assault, he or she will have either their own self-reflection or help to resolve his or her behavior (I hate the English language for it's use of impersonal pronouns, either awkward or or gender biased, both bad choices but that's another thread). It may or may not involve legal circumstances. Don't jump to conclusions.

Kalba

 

[ticklevids]

Myriads: I admire clarity. You have cleared things up. Therefore, I admire you.

Ticklevids: <sigh> I must accord you the minimum repect due to all people. But I cannot admire your clarity, as I have been unable to discern any. Certainly, keep expressing yourself. But, if I may be so bold as to offer unsolicited advice, you should strive for more coherence and structure in your rhetoric. You will stand a better chance of swaying others to your viewpoint if your viewpoint is made more intelligible. Also, the degree of heat in your posts brings to mind a certain Biblical quote: "The guilty flee when no man pursues." Perhaps a drier, cooler tone will help.

Dude, you've got to be joking. I'm not trying to 'sway' you or anyone else. It is impossible to describe how little I care if you agree with me or not. I was simply trying to educate you and some others to the silliness of some of these 'tickle=criminality" posts. Also, I am a published author, quite capable of some rather high end prose, and if I am guilty of anything it's of dumbing down my writing to a level appropriate for most to participate. If it's too low for you, I'll be glad to raise the bar. However, I love free form writing and then just hitting send (which is what I did on my posts in this thread I admit), so I can only imagine the amount of errors since nobody needs spell check more than me. So I agree it's scatterd but I'm not trying to sway you bro.

And speaking only for myself, quoting the bible in a forum and thread such as this is a mistake. I wouldn't do it since you are sure to offend someone. But thats your choice. But I will mention that your 'biblical quote' shows your hand. You have already labeled me 'guilty', which is exactly my point.

 

[ticklevids]

Bella

We can agree to disagree and I have to tell you, you are a pleasure to spar with!

 

[Eternal Tomboy]

I can't make up my mind, but I'm going to babble anyway...

I'm really sitting on the fence on this one. Of course, my knee jerk reaction is to side with my fellow women (or should I say, those that are on the receiving end of the advances), and say that nobody should EVER lay an unwelcome hand on anyone...even if it's JUST tickling.

BUT....

My other reaction is perhaps one which comes from a sheltered existance. I've never been tickled against my will. It has been my experience that the very nature of tickling is one of innocence and playfullness (speaking of the general populus here...and I guess a lot of us too). Even though I "get off" on tickling sometimes, I still see it as innocent from those that tickle me, or during those times that I tickle other people (except intimate tickling that is done between me and my husband...that's a WHOLE different story 😉 ). I see no reason why tickling between friends, or even aquaintances has to take on this serious boundary issue. In real life, at least in mine, I've never been tickled by someone that I didn't at least have a conversation with at first. It is usually during that discussion that I assess the other person's body language, and I'm sure, they are doing the same with me. I think that someone already said this, but I'll echo it, body language usually says it all. If you are any good at reading people you will be able to tell if any future touch is okay or not. But honestly speaking, sometimes the only way to really tell is to test the waters with an actual touch. Because let's face it, when you are talking to someone, and a playful tickle seems warranted most of us aren't going to ask "is it okay if I tickle you?" before we do it. I think that it was Siamese dream that explained the "touch and see" method in this thread, and I think she did it well. If after that first touch or tickle the person comes back with a "don't do that, I don't like it" well then, there's your answer...back off.

I'm a very physical person, so I will naturally make contact with a person who I'm engaged with, be it in conversation, or otherwise. If a guy (or girl for that matter) makes a wisecrack comment to me (in a playful attempt to get some reaction out of me), I will usually follow it up with a playful punch on their shoulder, or a tickle to the ribs...be it an aquaintance or a close friend. I would be totally shocked if the other person came back with a serious discussion about boundaries, and non-consentual touch. I usually play by the rule, when it feels like a natural thing to do, it usually is. Of course, I'm sure as with everything, there are exceptions to this rule.

Bottom line is that most people don't tickle unless some sort of a relationship has been developed first (even if it's just a conversation). Of course, there are those that might try it with a total stranger, and I think that those are the ONLY people that we should have issues with. Most guys, or should I say 'lers, don't do this kind of thing...even those that are into the non-con stuff. I don't think that most here would say that it's okay to tickle a person that you don't know. I haven't heard anyone disagree with this yet. Is there anyone who would just randomly tickle someone on the streeet without first establishing some kind of rapor? If so, then you folks are the true target of this thread...and deservedly so. I think that this type of touch is WAY out of line.

But for the most part, I think that most of us know how to play the social interaction game, right? And I don't think it's fair to lump those that are inclined to act phyisically aggressive (i.e. rapists, abusers, molesters, etc..) with those that will innocently tickle one that they are interacting with. A little perspective is all I'm asking for here.

I know that there are some here, mostly girls, that will say that there is no difference between someone that tickles, and someone that grabs your ass or breast without consent... non-invited touches are all the same (it was in one of the previous threads on the subject, but I can't remember who said it)...I disagree with this statement. I think that a playful poke to the ribs, and a sexual touch to one of my "private areas" are WORLDS apart. I put tickling along the same "touch lines" as a hug or a peck on the cheek. And if you think about it, a lot of us will give someone a friendly hug after just one meeting.

Just my thoughts on the subject...however scattered they might be 🙂

Maggie

 

[Phineas]

*sarcasm*
Ticklevids, we are SO not worthy. 🙄
*/sarcasm*

I agree with Myriads in that we all are trying to read our own missives into bella's questions and in that regard are taking this thread off in some weird directions. I respectfully draw your attention to some recent posts here that are probably what sparked bella's interest in the subject.

A hot topic was "The Maid...", a thread in which the poster asked our opinions on whether or not he should lie to a potential employee, pin her under a piece of furniture, tickle her for fifteen to twenty minutes straight, and offer her money for the experience. He was shocked when most of us expressed disapproval, as were one or two others.

Another that I don't feel like searching for was an advertisement for a web site where a photographer snuck up on barefoot women, tickled them, snapped their picture, and ran away. Looking at the pictures on his site, not one of the subjects looked like they were amused by his antics. He even admitted as such. People looked at me funny when I said anyone who tried that on me would probably be kicked in the zoom lense.

To this day, apart from bella and some guy in the chat room who sided with me whose name I don't recall, not one person has agreed with my view that pestering celebrities about their intimate details is not okay, regardless of how much of themselves they "expose", willingly or not, to the public spotlight.

Notice a trend?

Bella is asking that people who approve of these activities, when it has basically been "proven" (barring the last one, as the celebrities rarely tell us whether they enjoy that sort of attention other than to say they're "amused" by it), to justify their opinions given the grounds that the women such activities are "forced" upon (too strong a word, I know, but I can't think of a lesser one) are often not inviting such behavior and probably wouldn't like it. She's not accusing anyone of being rapists.

So, can we all stop being indignant and perceived attacks on our character and answer the questions she's put forth without reading anything into her delivery or intent?

 

[crydun]

I think that you should read the nonverbal cues from the other person and go from there. If I know the other person truly doesn't like it, I really try to respect their wishes. However, we must make our feelings clear. I also don't touch people I don't know very well. Rapport and trust are the key issues here. Just my two cents here.

ticklishly yours,

crydun😀 😛

 

[BellaRisa]

Phineas, you're my newest Hero...

...Not for agreeing with anything, but just because someone understood where I'm coming from (praise Phin )

I think I can give an example of what I mean here, Daisycrazy's post was a help: Picture a hot chick in a club, and a guy diggin' her from across the room. He's never seen her before. He's one of us, and every time she raises her arms and shows off her smooth underarms he has a dozen tiny heart attacks. Don't even ASK about her red toes in her lil' sandals 😉. He can either go over while she's facing the other way and run a finger under her arm as a way of first introducing himself, or he can start up a conversation first, and a wee bit later (after a dance and maybe a daquiri) when they're all snoogly at the bar he can give her ribs a squeeze, or ask to rub her feet and gently test out those soles...

I've been in both situations, and personally I like the second choice better. It shows maturity and self control and respect. Tickling as an opener is certainly not a crime, but I would be annoyed; I don't KNOW him yet, there's no connection. That connection ain't hard to form, 'specially in socializing-but it should be there first so you don't seem like Grabby Gus. Friggin' introduce yourself first, I just don't think that's too hard or makes me stuck-up.

For the record, I don't care for the random strangers who put an arm around your shoulders and ask bizarre questions meant to be smooth, either ("hey mama, live around here often? Can I drink your bathwater tonight?" oo ick 🙄 )

 

[Iggy pop]

*sarcasm*
To this day, apart from bella and some guy in the chat room who sided with me whose name I don't recall, not one person has agreed with my view that pestering celebrities about their intimate details is not okay, regardless of how much of themselves they "expose", willingly or not, to the public spotlight.

I created another thread for this. So I'm going quote this and take it over to the other thread.

 

[Iggy pop]

Stranger tickling

While I don't recommend stranger tickling, I once tickled a stranger and ended up getting a date out of it. I was lucky I picked the right girl. I could easily have been punched in the nose.

 

[Novus]

Confusion over the issue

A lot af what I am about to say has already been said or implied in other posts, but I am going to put it all in one place right here.

There have been countless threads on the topic non-consensual tickling and in each thread it boils down to some really fallacious reasoning that confuses the whole issue. The falacy is the same one the politically correct use when they decree you can never touch anyone without their prior consent otherwise it is rape or assault. The fact is that non-consensual tickling happens all the time and there is nothing wrong with it. This issue becomes confused when other immoral and illeagal actions are tied onto the non-consensual tickling. That is a falacy by association. It is always said that non-consensual tickling is wrong because people are being held down, assualted, attacked, kidnapped, threatened, and made to feel violated in general. But really none of this has anything to do with tickling.

It is important to make the distiction of what exactly is wrong about non-consensual tickling. We should all know that kidnapping and assault is wrong no matter what. The tickling itself whether it is consensual or non-consensual is perfectly moral and ethical. In reality most of the tickling done outside of the community is of the non-consensual type. This kind of tickling has nothing to do with kidnapping strangers and no one is ever placed in mortal fear for their lives. This type of tickling is done between freinds and lovers or even people who have only known each other for a few minutes. No matter how unwilling they are to the tickling or no matter how much they hate it they know they will not be harmed. They also know they will not have their basic human dignity violated.

By friends and lovers I mean that they should be able to read eachothers emotions and signs well enough so that the tickling is never overdone to the point where anyone would feel violated. There is a difference between telling them to stop tickling you because you are ticklish and don't like it and telling them to stop tickling you because you feel violated. All ticklers should know this. This distiction is very important in determining what exactly is wrong with non-consensual tickling. Is it the tickling or is the violation that people have a problem with. One can be made to feel violated in many ways, even looking at someone the wrong way can make some people upset. Does this mean that mere looking is wrong? No, it is the violation of their being that is wrong, not mere looking or non-consensual tickling. Even consensual tickling can quickly make one feel violated if the tickler does not understand this concept. Where this line is drawn is different for each person and dependent on the level of trust involved. The more trust there is between the ler and the lee the farther the tickling can be taken both consensually and non-consensually.

Just my two cents on the issue.

 

[Stephen]

Beware of your friends

Hello, bella:

No I don't tickle strangers. You never know which ones have black belts in martial arts. Seriously, though, it's pretty rude though it's not like I haven't wanted to do it (must...control...hand of evil).

Why do some guys think it's OK? Probably because they want you to tickle them, even though you're a stranger. I would love to be on the beach, asleep, and have some babe tickle my feet. Not holding breath until THAT happens.

Women should watch out for the guys they DO know well. Let me tell you about a girl I knew in college. Louise was attractive ticklish and fond of going barefoot. One time five of us were on a long road trip. Three girls and two guys. My friend Ray and I sat in the back seat, with Louise sitting between us. It was late spring, warm and Louise took off her shoes and draped her legs over the front seat. Kim, in the passenger's seat, gave Louise a playfull tickle on her feet. Louise, of course, jerked her legs back violently.

"Louise is ticklish" I said, stating the obvious. Ray then grabbed Louise's arms and told me I should grab her legs and tickle Louise on her feet. Happy to oblige. As we rolled down the interstate, 70 mph, I tickled Louise's bare feet and toes while she laughed like a maniac and screamed bloody murder. I gave Louise a few breaks to let her catch her breath, but her tickle-torture lasted at least a half-hour. After, I let go and let Ray have a turn. Not as into tickling as I was, Ray's torment of Louise lasted only a few minutes.

When it was over, Louise was clearly angry. She was a gentle soul, so she didn't hit us or call us dirty names or anything like that. It wasn't her style. Still, she was not a happy camper. Did it let it affect our friendship? No, she wasn't going to let that undo two years of good times. But would we have ever done that to someone who wasn't our "good friend?" I don't think we would have had the nerve.

 

[MistressValerie]

My perspective as a female 'ler may be interesting (I hope). My rule is that I would tickle someone with either explicit consent (he/she has openly given me permission), or *implicit* consent -- that is, he/she is someone who knows, likes, and trusts me, and will accept the physical intrusion as flirtation and not an assault.

It is hard to articulate specific guidelines for this, but if I'm in doubt, I would rather ask than screw up a friendship by "assuming" the other person wanted to be tickled. Asking can be done in a teasing or flirtatious way (smiling and asking someone if he/she is ticklish, and gauging their reaction). If I am already on a physical-play basis with someone (wrestling, chest sitting), I usually assume that it's OK to tickle.

As a 'lee, because I weigh under 100 lb. and am quite small, I would rather be asked first. I am more dom than sub, and I have specific requirements for being tickled that I do insist on. I suppose that if I were a 5'9", 160-lb. athletic type, I would not be so finicky about being touched.

I hope this is of help in framing or clarifying the issues.

Love to all,

 

[Strelnikov]

There was a related thread a month or so back. The situation:

At a plain vanilla party at college, a guy tickled a woman's bare feet. They didn't know each other well, casual acquaintances only. She didn't laugh, told him to stop. He kept it up until his friends restrained him.

If she had wanted attention from him, she would have found a way to let him know. She didn't, and he either wasn't reading her signals, or was too drunk to care.

Here's the difference, friends.

The first non-con tickle was OK - hey, you never know until you try. Everybody was young, hammered, and in a party environment. If he had quit after she said NO, everything would have been fine.

Where he crossed the line was keeping it up after she told him to stop. That made him (at very least) a drunken asshole. His friends were right to stop him, both for her sake and so that he would stop showing his ass.

Strelnikov

 

[P50]

And Now A Word From Our Resident Prude

<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> why are women supposed to allow others to touch us whether or not we want them to? </I>

Huh ?

It will usually take at <I>least</I> 24 hours to get me to touch a woman if I've never known her before, and normally about a week or two. That assumes, of course, that we've had a few phone calls, have checked out each others' basic workplace and domestic settings, etc.

"Supposed" ?

Duh, I can't answer that one.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> I don't mean those times when it's honestly no big deal-the frat party where she dislikes tickling but likes you so you know she won't be upset. </I>

I guess that's one more reason to stay away from frats. That does <I>not</I> sound like "no big deal" to me.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> I mean the girl that you KNOW doesn't want her foot tickled/bra strap snapped/ice put down her back. What compells you, as adults, to seriously annoy women? </I>

Bella, those words come across my eyes and tell me that you need to say goodbye to certain people in your life. I don't think I've ever done those types of things.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> Also, why is it cool to touch strange women? The barefoot girl on the train, the hot chick on the beach...that you haven't met yet. Why is it that putting your hands on strange people is okay? </I>

Where do you live ? I suggest you move.

What you have described is <I>not</I> "okay" with me. Tell you the truth, my game is trying to keep from getting caught taking a glance as I look for something else. Got that ? I avoid even looking.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> In the above questions, I'm not asking whether society allows it or wants it a certain way. I'm asking why YOU think it's fine to do. "That's the way it is" is not a fair answer. Remember, we make up society. </I>

Where did you come across these examples ? I mean really; I'm worried about your environment. Get away from those people.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> Finally: why do you think that the women here, who love to be tickled and otherwise caressed, are so against being touched against our wishes? Be honest. </I>

Because it's wrong ?

Because it's gross-o-more-so ?

Because it's the single biggest major turn off a guy can do ?

Is it okay to be a guy and also be grossed out by false instant intimacy ?


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I> This is NOT a rant, I would like those who can to give me their honest answers without fear of being yelled at-speak your minds, please. </I>

Okay Bella, here: you have the wrong social crowd. Leave them.


<B>Bella asked:</B> <I>I'm asking please PLEASE keep this on topic, please answer any or all of my questions as best you can. Thanks! </I>

Okay, as best I can: there is a quality control deficiency in certain people's lives, and they let the wrong crowds take them in. I made the conscious choice to inject a little bit of lonliness (and no, it isn't fun) into my life and remove such worthless "social acceptance" by crowds who were headed places I have no intention of ever going. Among my better moves in life; I might add. (Letting them take me in in the first place was among my stupidest moves in life, but that's for another post.)

Interesting byproduct of that decision and resultant life process: I began to attract other friends who were markedly different in behavior, attitude, and mindset. I didn't have to try; they just somehow beamed in from the starship or something. Must be the natural planet earth thing.

Are you truly unaware of the (usually very simple) steps that you can take which are extremely effective at reducing/eliminating such members of the human race from your life ?

 

[terorizer]

Re: Undesired Tickling/Touching, Please Read

(A)Fellas, I really want to know: why are women supposed to allow others to touch us whether or not we want them to?

(B)Also, why is it cool to touch strange women? The barefoot girl on the train, the hot chick on the beach...that you haven't met yet. Why is it that putting your hands on strange people is okay?

(C)Finally: why do you think that the women here, who love to be tickled and otherwise caressed, are so against being touched against our wishes? Be honest.

Bella

Hmmm... I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be replying but oh well. A) you're not, B) It's not and C) The same reason women in the club don't want someone's tongue down their throat, just because that someone bought a drink. There's a reason it's called personal space. It belongs to that person and the person is the sole judge and jury on who what where how when and why someone is invited into it.

 

[Oddjob0226]

>>>>>>Also, why is it cool to touch strange women? The barefoot girl on the train, the hot chick on the beach...that you haven't met yet. Why is it that putting your hands on strange people is okay? <<<<



Are we really doing this? I haven't. I can't even remeber witnessing this, althought, yeah, I know it does happen. What am I missing?

I can say that probably SOME do it because they DON'T get permission to, and the need/frustration builds, a need that's as real & ligitimate and fierce as people who are lucky enough to be around those who do allow it. That's why gay teens kill themselve more that straight ones. No acceptance or outlet = bad choices and improper "acting out".


Actually, I can't remember the last time I touched someone when they were against it, or, at worst, when they said stop, they MEANT stop (and it was never a stranger).

But I, a guy, have been touched this way, too. Since I'm not much to look at (what an understatement!) this doens't happen often, but it can, often becasue I seem so non-threatening. On the rare occasion it happens - a woman who has too much to drink, a really pushy salesman trying to convince me that he's really my friend - it's uncomfortable & awkward, but I simply move on in my life to my inevitable and unavoidable death.