War...

[Lynchy]

"...When it comes to the security or our country, we will go to war with or without a UN resolution." ~Bush.

As if this shit has anything to do with America's security. I'm speaking about the older generations in the US when I say this, since I know for a fact that most people my age are opposed to the war... Is everyone in America stupid or something?!

Yes, Iraq is dissarming, yes, Hans Blix made a superb case against war today. No, America doesn't give a FUCK, yes, Colin Powell still justifies marching into the poorest country in the world, killing thousands of innocent people and taking control of the oil fields.

Yes, the UK and US Governments are full of corrupt, greedy, lying bastards.

Why is the 19 year old Brit whose opinions count for nothing getting upset about this? Because INNOCENT people are going to die, it's THAT simple. In fact, won't this seperate America and Britain from the rest of the world? I mean come on, at least Saddam is a lunitic, at least the Taliban were desperate and at least Al Qieda(sp?) were plain pissed off. What's America's excuse for mass genocide?

I've hated polititions for a long time. But this is NOT democracy. How ironic it is that Bush wants a war so much when he did all he could to worm out of fighting in Vietnam... so he's not only a coward but a let down to his country.

WAKE UP!!!

"Manufacturing consent is the name of the game
The bottom line is money
Nobody gives a fuck
Four thousand hungry children
Leave us per hour from starvation
While billions are spent of BOMBS
Creating DEATH SHOWERS"

~System Of A Down: 'Boom'

 

[Stephen]

thank you, Lynchy

Everything you said is true. Now sit back and watch the warmongers attack you, seeing as none of them have the guts to attack Iraq in person. Oh, we have an all-voluteer military for that.

 

[Stitch62679]

Sorry Guys

I respect the opinions of both the older generation of Americans and those who wish for peace not war. However, I can tell you both...this is a new world, and not everyone sees it.
I am speaking from the new youth perspective. We know not Vietnam, we know not the Cold War. We know domestic issues. We know hatred and we know inability. We also know aggression. There are those of us who have broken apart from the thoughts of the last few decades, and believe we should be active, moreover proactive. We should have to fight for what we want rather than dismiss and try to make all better by effectively lying down.
The way this world is going, is temporarily, and I do stress this is temporary, there are those of us who have grown up to prepare for harsh realities. We will preserve peace in the end, and we would rather pay the price now and KNOW we have peace rather than back down now and risk worse consequences in the near future. We will not fear.
Those of you will strike at my statement right away, and I will assure you I am in a position that I will fight for my country and not just beat the drums of war. We have war rallies for the first time on college campuses, why? Because we are tired of listening to the peace sayers. We cannot enjoy freedom and the freedom to protest war without first securing that freedom. This is our constant.

 

[Stephen]

who has attacked us?

Stitch, how is your freedom in jeopardy? Iraq has neither the desire nor capability of attacking the USA. Go fight your war, then, if you survive, come back and tell me how wrong you were. I don't think too many of those pro-war students have ever read "All Quiet On The Western Front." Oh yeah, that's right. That's the "older generation" and has no relevance to the "new reality" of today (i.e. bomb first and sort out the details later). You're tired of listening to the peace sayers? Then go fight this filthy war and learn first-hand about how right the peace sayers are! You know not Vietnam? You haven't any knowledge of the Cold War? There are things called books. Pick one up and read about them. Don't repeat the mistakes "my generation" made.

 

[BettyBoop2002]

I hate the fact that there is even talk of war at all! My heart is with all the brave men and women over there fighting for who? They are fighting for our Country our freedom! One of our own is over there now, Flatfoot...God speed him back safe and sound and all the rest of them that have to be there. God be with their families while they are away, imagine this.....they are away from their family, being in a God for saken place that I am sure is HELL, and worrying about their loved ones at home. If the they have enough money for the month, can they pay all the bills, have food, this is what I think about. Praying for all who are there to come home soon, safe and sound.
I am really not sure if war is the answer or not🙁

 

[Stephen]

To Betty

Betty, I'm not a pacifist. Sometimes, war is inevitable. But this war is wrong, totally, in my eyes. It will not make us Americans safer. Just the opposite will likely occur.

 

[BettyBoop2002]

Neither am I Stephen, either way someone loses. Lots of innocent people will lose their lives because of it too. That is sad🙁

 

[ShiningIce]

See what happens when u put a Bush in office 😡

 

[grippedchimp]

I'm personally sick and tired of this talk of war. Get Saddam out of power and we're sorted. The first Bush didn't take out Saddam, so how can the second do so? And the "war" in Afghanistan didn't exactly end in definite circumstances either. And Osama Bin Laden isn't even caught yet. Personally, anyone pro-war should go and fight in Iraq. But don't expect anything to be proud of afterwards... killing the innocent. I may as well post some hip-hop lyrics relevant on this subject matter...

Don't pull the thang out, unless you plan to bang
Bombs over Baghdad!
Don't even bang unless you plan to hit something
Bombs over Baghdad!
B.O.B by Outkast

 

[Dragon321]

sadam = bush = hitler = mao = stalin

sadam has around 6 given body doubles @ any time, so it is impossible to covertly take him out (the US has tried) therefore, a war would be necessary to remove saddam.

but why remove him!?

millions, perhaps 10's of millions of Iraqi people, as well asw the bodies of at least a few 1000 US troops, will litter the ground of barren Iraq.

and for what?

so the US government can set up a puppet state that theoretically espouses democracy but instead is a fascist and totalitarian state, equal to that of the current regime?

and dont you DARE say that it the US wouldn't do it, that it hasnt happened before. a little history:

1. latin america. the new communist, DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government led by president allende comes to power. all is well, there is dancing in the streets. then the US bombs the absolute FUCK out of the presidential palace, sends fighters to harry the communists, and sets up a brutal military dictatorship which represses the poor and disadvantaged.

2. Afghanistan. to stop the "commie bastards", the US instates the TALIBAN. thats right, the TALIBAn was set up by the US, and given US/soviet weapons.

3. iraq. the peoples of Iraq were encouraged by the US to rise up against the brutal regime, but when the US realised they might not control this new people, they aided SADAM, and prevented access to strategic points while letting the iraqi army have free access to destroy these "terrorists", while still calling officially for an uprising.

the list goes on: economic embargoes in cuba and venezuela, hiring Nazis to run west berlin, et cetera.

not all of these may be entirely true, but at least some are. and it seriously casts doubt on the democratic ideals of the US.

now flame me, you reactionary warmongers. my convictions are steady, i will not waver. buddham sharanam gacchami

 

[Marauder]

Re: sadam = bush = hitler = mao = stalin

now flame me, you reactionary warmongers. my convictions are steady, i will not waver. buddham sharanam gacchami

Absolutely not. This Forum is flame-free, or at least we're trying to keep it that way. Why ask for flames when one can have a nice, educated discussion?

Le sigh. The umphteenth thread about this crap, and still same old, same old.

 

[Stitch62679]

Educated Response

I appreciate the reply. As far as Iraq not wanting anything to do with us as has been suggested, personally from what I have seen this is not true. Pakastani ISI through a connection at Fox News has given independent confirmation that Iraq is in fact actively aiding Al Queada. I've heard the Bush Administration has this evidence and is withholding because it will 100% jeopardize the sources and will stop all further intelligence.
Could we leave Iraq alone? Yes, we could. We could also leave Bin Laden alone.
Think of WWII, we could have also left the european front alone, I mean, Pearl Harbor was only one attack, who's to say they'd do it again. No cause for concern, right?

 

[Stitch62679]

Allow us to face facts: there will always be opposition. Who is right we will never know. For all you Christians, you are all in violation of the one true God Allah, and are evil. For all you Muslims, you have not accepted Jesus Christ and are all evil. For all you consevatives, you hate people and are evil. For all your Liberals, you hate people and are evil. For all you warmongers, you just want death. For all you peace keepers, you all keep your head in the sand.

Why do I say all this? Because there is no right, only difference of opinion. Everything is unjust if you look at it the right way, and everything is correct if you look at it with the right blinders.

 

[Dragon321]

objectivist requiem

i am truly hurt that i have been lumped in with the other uneducated louts simply because i asked people to flame me.
i will admit that my last post was hasty, and that i now sound anti-american.
do not make this assumption. please.
i do not hate america, i hate its undemocratic government and bush especially. likewise, i loathe all of the "old men" in power who would send idealistic, beautiful youth to die in foreign fields.

i respect that the US has the right to defend its security. but i question this: would its security have been less threatened if it did not make these eternal mistakes in foreign policy?

as a student of history, the US has been one of the singlew clumsiest nations in this respect. the other great one is britain.

the us has in some cases fostered the agression it now finds itself facing.

i agree with marauder. same old same old. ennui. constancy. cycles of history run greased with the blood of youth. we are all fallible. the path to enlightenment, socially, culturally and individually will be a hard one, fraught with dangers. agreement and disagreement. why is man eternally turned against himself???!!! WHY!!!!

perhaps we need an enemy, to define ourselves. i pray for a day when that will end.

oh-kay, thats enough maudlin fer me!

 

[Stephen]

Stitch, your a stitch

Why am I not surprsied, Stitch, that you get your propaganda from Fox News. That pack of self-serving liars will say anything and apologize later (maybe).

If the Bush regime has this information, it damned well better reveal it to the citizens of the United States. If it wanted to protect its sources it never would have mentioned it had the info. Don't you think there's something fishy about a regime telling its citizens, "We know it. You don't need proof. Just believe us." That sounds like dictatorship to me.

And be careful about mentioning World War II. Saddam Hussein hasn't attacked the USA ever, or annexed anyone's land in 12 years. But an unprovoked U.S. invasion of Iraq could easily draw comparisons to a blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939.

 

[august spies]

stitch as somone with ties to the nj student peace movement i can tell you, if you took 5min to talk to them you would realize it is they who are protecting your freedoms, from the pro war people who are taking them away, by support orwellian domestic policy and belligerant foriegn policy

 

[Stitch62679]

I've seen the peace movement here...and there's been more war movements, lol. They've actually been starting to come out and assemble because of the peace movement.
As for likening the US to Germany in WWII, why would you do such a thing? Are we really hellbent on expanding our empire or the killing of an entire people? Be fair.

It's my belief that peace is the better option, but ignorance in the light of suffering is something that no God loving person can do.

Does the US want oil, hell yes! Does the US want Saddam out, Hell yes. Will we kill our soldiers for it, no!
Look at all we have done, we drop leaflets telling people to flee from certain areas that will be bombed, we've been working with the Kurds. We're trying to keep Turkey from taking northern Iraq, which if you look, they are setting up more of an invasion force than protective measurement.

If we were a peaceful nation, we'd have no nation. The only time this administration has taken away our rights was with the Patriot Act because they overreacted.
If you look at the world around us, and I may not be attending peace rallies, but I have a good knowledge of the NJ anti-american and pro-bin laden movement, and I can assure you we are not out of the woods yet.
We are hated simply because we ARE.
Foreign policy has in the past been careless, this is no secret, but that doesn't mean we should turn our back to part of the world that is conspiring against us.
All I'm saying is let those with the knowledge of what is going on do what they believe is best.

We do not want war, but being too scared of war will never help us. NOW has protested saying Iraqi women are treated fairly and we need not liberate them, why would they do that? A woman was recently burned to death for what in this country wouldnt be illegal!

I admit, I dont understand the peace stance, they have too many reasons none of which make sense. All I hear from them is war is bad, and yes it is!

 

[tactillianlover]

A recent mainstream report stated that as much as fifty percent of the gas masks our soldiers have been issued are defective and will leak! Send our men and women with shoddy equiptment?

HELL NO!!! Someone needs to be forced to fix such unacceptable problems!! Then, we could continue with the theory of war.

 

[Stitch62679]

I agree, that's pretty rediculous. We can do a hell of a lot better in equiptment for bioterrorism!!!!! That's sick.

 

[Stephen]

Stitch, you did it again

It's not a case of being scared of war, although the aftermath of this vulgar display of power frightens the crap out of me.

Do you really think our "leaders" know best? Please, wake up and smell the falafel. Germans in 1939 thought their leaders knew what was best, too. Do not trust these people. They're self-serving fools who lead us to disaster.

All war isn't bad, Stitch. This one, however, withers under the hot sun of the facts.

 

[venray]

Re: Stitch, your a stitch

Saddam Hussein hasn't attacked the USA ever, or annexed anyone's land in 12 years. But an unprovoked U.S. invasion of Iraq could easily draw comparisons to a blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939.

Perhaps not directly...but he has supported those who have with weapons and/or funds and/or asylum......

The new world is upon us Stephen.....It changed on 911 and will never be the same again...we will be proactive whether the administration is Republican or Democrat..makes no difference who is in power, the results will always be the same.......

 

[Stephen]

what the hell has 9-11 got to do with Iraq?

venray, Iraq is a secular government and a pariah to Islamic zealots like bin Laden. But he'll use this war as a recruiting tool, like the U.S. war against Iraq is really a war against all of Islam.

Yeah, we'll be proactive, and we'll live with the consequences of that. And if the United States of America can survive all of this proactivity, let's hope future U.S. governments will have learned some lesson and never be proactive again.

We're headed for a much unsafer world so that Shrub can win next year.

 

[venray]

911 has everything to do with the way we operate in the world from that day forward...we will do nothing the way in which we used to. including sitting on complacent asses and allowing lunatics to get weapons that will do much more damage in the world....I am not saying that this is a good thing, but I am agreeing that it is necessary...

As for Bush winning in the next election, no difference than if Gore were running again and won...the world is a totally different place, my friend, and there is NOTHING that we can do to change it back...



Ven

 

[august spies]

the nj pro bin laden movement? lol please enlighten me.

the only pro bin laden movement in nj were the people supporting the us government in the 1980s.

the us doesnt care about any human life, so stop using that as an excuse for war. at least you admit was is bad and they want oil

 

[Stitch62679]

As with all fun debates, I shall stir the pot until the water evaporates 😉

Here we go again, 1939 Germans? I promise you I'll admit you're right when I'm marching around in Cacky and leather boots and burning books, but until then I'll stick to my ideals.

I like venray's points, all of them, and I agree whole-heartedly.

What the people protesting peace at all costs are missing is no matter how exclusionary we are as a nation, these problems oversees will come to our doorstep. Now the administrations of current and how they are dealing with this is probably not the best way to go, but philosphy and hindsight are two things they have not the luxury of.
I see the administrations eagerness to try to diminish the amount of outward aggression toward us by disarming and removing regimes that do wish us harm, especially, and this is where and why we're ready to go to Iraq before N Korea, those who wish to do it indirectly. In such case, how much proof do a handful of activists need?

The more information disseminated about what may be used against us, the more stoic the peace movement stays, and why is that?