what happened to clips4sale????

[U.N.Owen]

I'm sorry, but that is beyond stupid.

I've been shooting since 2013 and even with the barest amount of research I did on the topic I knew that keeping a copy of the ID on file was 100% required. As much as I defend producers on random shit I will never sympathize with anyone who simply doesn't have the records. Before 2021? Zero. Excuse. ZE-RO. Only the laziest possible interpretation of the 2257 code would even hint that you didn't need a copy of the ID. Anyone with half a brain would do it as a matter of routine CYA.

I'm surprise to hear TickleTown had so much trouble on Patreon. I ran an adult-material page there for Sole Males for a li'l less than two years (closed in down in September of '24) and it was completely painless. Nobody so much as asked for paperwork. Now OnlyFans, on the other hand, they flat-out said "we can't be bothered to verify your entire roster. Denied."

Trust me, if I could score similar sales and traffic - such as it is - from sites other than C4S I'd expand, but I've had to shut down accounts on a handful of other sites over the years due to a total lack of income. For me, it's C4S or nothing.

That said, only problem I've ever had with compliance that was unjustified was how they started cracking down on the fact that I included a phone number in the legally-required contact information at the end of the video. It's clearly labeled as 2257 compliance information, was never a problem for twelve-some-odd years, but all of a sudden I started having videos denied for it. I was usually able to get them to re-approve, but eventually I just said fuck it and removed the number. The address is still there, and they don't seem to care about that.

Generally speaking I'm all for improved enforcement of compliance as long as it's consistent. Problem is, it's not (re: phone numbers).

Oh well. Less competition after the purge I guess.

I can't dispute that it was careless not to keep copies of IDs. But C4S should have made it an explicit requirement from the start, not only in 2021. They, too, should have been paying more attention to the legal requirements. Some producers certainly did pay attention from the beginning - and there wouldn't a problem now if C4S had done its own job of following the law all along.

It's completely unclear why Patreon singled out Tickle Town for trouble - especially when their videos are so obviously girl-next-door, innocent and in good fun. But Oblesklk was clearly only half-joking when he said the whole process left him with PTSD.

 

[kingmaker]

The keeping ID thing is not a rule in every country. You cant blame producers to follow the law in their country.

Plus a lot of things can happen to records in years.
The producers that did not take IDs always took the contracts for all I know, it's not like they didn't have any process or ethics.

If a producer was involving minors in their work we would know by now

 

[SoleMates]

I can't dispute that it was careless not to keep copies of IDs. But C4S should have made it an explicit requirement from the start, not only in 2021.

They did, and even if they didn't, it's a fundamental aspect of 18USC2257, which all (US-based, at least) producers need to comply with, and always have.

Kingmaker's the only one with a (vaguely) valid point in that laws vary by country, but again; I've been selling with Clips4Sale since 2013 and although they didn't require the documents to be on file with them directly, it has always been a violation of their terms of service to not keep 2257-compliant records. Their TOS has always said "we reserve the right to ask you for these documents and terminate your studio if you can't provide them."

I'd wager that goes for non-US-based studios using C4S as well, given that they have to agree to the terms of service to sign up.

Plus a lot of things can happen to records in years.

Here in the US, you are responsible for keeping those records on file and available for inspection at any time for the entire duration of the operation of your business as well as five years afterward. "Oops I lost it" probably isn't going to fly in any country that actually has laws.

If a producer was involving minors in their work we would know by now

Would we? How long after the fact did it come out that Traci Lords was underage? That chick from the "Guy Game" video game? The Girls Gone Wild scandal(s)?

Part of the problem with not having records is that if a producer seems sus nobody can track the girl down to find out for sure.

 

[U.N.Owen]

They did, and even if they didn't, it's a fundamental aspect of 18USC2257, which all (US-based, at least) producers need to comply with, and always have.

Kingmaker's the only one with a (vaguely) valid point in that laws vary by country, but again; I've been selling with Clips4Sale since 2013 and although they didn't require the documents to be on file, it has always been a violation of their terms of service to not keep 2257-compliant records. Their TOS has always said "we reserve the right to ask you for these documents and terminate your studio if you can't provide them."

I'd wager that goes for non-US-based studios using C4S as well, given that they have to agree to the terms of service to sign up.

Indisputable points, particularly on the clear requirement in the law, which producers should have followed if only through enlightened self interest. But I would argue that C4S failing to ever actually ask for the documents over so many years was a mistake that encouraged damaging complacency. They should have required that the documents be on file, or at least made a point of doing periodic random audits so producers would remember it was a requirement; not requiring that for 20 years was an invitation to producers to cut corners or get careless or to lose documents they had in fact collected at the time.

And yes, I would think the C4S terms of service, if the same for all producers in different countries, override variations in local laws, for the purposes of C4S.

 

[kingmaker]

Would we? How long after the fact did it come out that Traci Lords was underage? That chick from the "Guy Game" video game? The Girls Gone Wild scandal(s)?

Part of the problem with not having records is that if a producer seems sus nobody can track the girl down to find out for sure.

Any girl can find herself online easily, if she sees a video of her she can go to police, and they will look into it. That's how it's done

 

[BBGuy5240]

I too am very glad Oblesklk brought Tickle Town back online. He even upscaled the quality of the old videos via the streaming website - they look amazing. Oblesklk said specifically that he wanted to avoid C4S. He was on Patreon before he opened the new site last fall, and they made it a complete nightmare - even though he does have all the documentation C4S is now demanding, and more. (Discussing this whole situation last night, he said that he not only took photos of models' IDs, he took photos of the models holding the same ID, just to be safe, and got a signed contract and a signed release. But Patreon was determined to deny him hosting service and claimed his contracts had to include the Patreon web address in their text - even though his videos were made long before Patreon existed. So he wouldn't need to contact his old models to satisfy C4S... though if that were demanded, it couldn't be done. He's had no contact with any of them for more than 10 years.)

I was wondering why he was having trouble on Patreon. Because I knew that it couldn't be any kind of nudity issue. He doesn't do nudity. And also because TickleBabes (who I freaking love) is on Patreon, and they've done plenty of clips involving some nudity.

And yeah, there's no way he'd be able to contact any of the girls. And even if he could get in contact with Mendez or Marvel, it wouldn't matter because both were tickling/getting tickled by girls who wouldn't be able to be contacted. But it sounds like he made sure that he had ALL possible information regarding the girls he worked with

 

[U.N.Owen]

I was wondering why he was having trouble on Patreon. Because I knew that it couldn't be any kind of nudity issue. He doesn't do nudity. And also because TickleBabes (who I freaking love) is on Patreon, and they've done plenty of clips involving some nudity.

And yeah, there's no way he'd be able to contact any of the girls. And even if he could get in contact with Mendez or Marvel, it wouldn't matter because both were tickling/getting tickled by girls who wouldn't be able to be contacted. But it sounds like he made sure that he had ALL possible information regarding the girls he worked with

Patreon's war on him is a mystery. His material is as clean as anything adult-oriented could be. Maybe he just got caught in some random audit by a particularly officious schnook at Patreon.

And yes, fortunately he won't need to contact any of his old models, which would be impossible. He was extremely careful about keeping records. And he just mentioned this evening that the payment platform he's using for the new site vetted all his proof of age documents when the site was set up... so that's all done and dusted.