World corruption, lying politicians and the tragedy of 9/11.

[t s s]

i`m amazed i`m saying this tron but i agree with you 100% 😉,war is sometimes needed but there would be a lot less trouble in the world if the leaders had to fight instead of the citizens,my feelings exactly.

 

[BigJim]

Sorry Jim, you haven't conviced me with your reply. It's only more of the same theory with which you're trying to prove your theory.

But I refrain from a lengthy reply now and wait till you've unfolded your theory completely. Be prepared for a VERY lengthy reply then! 😉

No probs mate. I would have been suprised if I'd convinced anyone. I think some will think it's true, some will be undecided and some will think it's total crap. All up to them. I look forward to your lengthy reply Hal; I think it alone will be the start of another debate. 😉

Danke für das Gespräch mein Freund.

 

[BigJim]

The point was that you can make connections anywhere you want to make them, like a spiderweb. By the time the web is done, you can follow any of the strands, take a turn on any of the others and reach the same center. But when the web covers half a cornfield (you should see some of the ones captured on film in South America....truly magnificent), you're following a lot of strands. All lead to the same center. Someone starting on the other end gets to the same place, but by a different route. It doesn't mean the other strands don't exist.

Yup, I guess so. In the end it will be up to individuals to decide what they think is the right conclusion. If everyone else comes to a different conclusion to me, well I'll have to live with it. I'd be quite a sad tosser if I didn't.

 

[BigJim]

Re: I'll Tell You What's Sad..

And I know many of you will find this odd coming from me. I do believe war is necessary at times, but given a viable additional options war should always be the last.

Much of war is just a bunch of old men getting off because they can send young men to do their bidding. Nothing more than that..

Give the old men guns, put them into a room and let the best man win.

The rest of us should watch cartoons 🙂


Tron

I think Darth, that you hit the nail right on the head. The "old men" see the people of the world as chess pieces and beings whose sole reason for existence is to serve them.

I'd disagree that it's "nothing more than that", because I think continually provoking wars is the easiest way of keeping the people of the world divided and supressable.
But other than that, I think you were right on the money.

P.S. What do you reckon about the passage above that deals with the "legal status of the US"? Real, possible or hooey?

 

[Dave2112]

Jim, just to clear up something you said about Jesus Christ. It has little bearing on the outcome here, but it does change a few refernces. You mentioned that Christ was Half Man/Half God. This isn't exactly accurate. The Christian principle is based on the mystery of Jesus being both Man and God simulatneously.

Just a little FYI stuff. 😎

 

[BigJim]

Jim, just to clear up something you said about Jesus Christ. It has little bearing on the outcome here, but it does change a few refernces. You mentioned that Christ was Half Man/Half God. This isn't exactly accurate. The Christian principle is based on the mystery of Jesus being both Man and God simulatneously.

Just a little FYI stuff. 😎

Point taken, but that remark was more of a throwaway comment, than a reasoned debating point, I left all those in the copied and pasted religious bit.

The reason I refered to him as "half-man and half-god" was because he had one mortal parent and one immortal one; compared to most of the others in the list whose parents were both immortal beings. (Horus, Tammuz, Dionysus etc.) This would have made JC more out of the mould of Hercules than Horus andthe rest. (Or indeed Mahommed, who was just a 100% divinely chosen human according to the Koran, of which I have an English copy.)

Makes you wonder how good he would have been if someone carrying an Ysalamir had been nearby, doesn't it? 😀

 

[BigJim]

Part 2 of this topic should be going up tomorrow night. I've been working on it for most of today, but have run out of time. Keen as I am to finish it, I have to get up at 04:30 hrs tomorrow. (It's now 10 to 11.) Sorry to keep you waiting, but it's been quite a busy time for me, work-wise.

The next post will focus primarilly on the Bush family, but will also include some background on their fellow "Illuminati" families as well.

 

[avethibaltus]

I do share a lot of your beliefs Jim. You mentioned a website where the "religious" stuff was discussed or posted?

Can't remember which communist said that religion was an opiate for the masses but I really believe that there was more to that than most people think.

The bible interpretation discussion is great fun, especially if you try it with some bible belt types from the southern states. Just translating German into English and vice versa presents problems, even with the original author as a point of reference, not to mention translating ancient texts from a translation of the translation of the translation, most if not all are from questionable sources. But people honestly believe whatever they are told (hmmm, sounds familiar with regards to a certain "democratic" government and its people) and do not make even the slightest effort to understand the how, why, or what for. It is really sad.

You've probably also heard of the Dead Sea scrolls and how long the Israeli government kept them under wraps before allowing third party historians to even look at the original documents?

 

[P50]

Big Jim Wrote...

<I>
But wait till you read my second part before you decide if you're happy or not.
</I>

I will wait in spellbound anticipation

Jeff of MTP is the tickleluminati

Let me know when I'm ready to "think for myself"

 

[reflexology414]

the thread

Your thread made reference to September 11. The thing which bothers me most about this topic is that so many Americans have been lead to believe that Iraq was behind September 11, when it has been proven that they had nothing to do with it. The facts on this issue have been distorted by politicians and the mass media, and I don't think that honors the memory of those lost of September 11.

 

[JoBelle]

Jimbo,

OK, so I read it. And, I'm rather along the lines of Hal in repsonse.

Rather than just respond to your interpretation, I'll have to do a bit of reading myself. I use my "facts" like you use your own. HOWEVER, I'd like a chance to read the material you "studied."

I'm sure you've mentioned a title here and there, but I'm not good at recalling where they were in the posts. So...Since you've spent such a large amount of time and energy reading and preparing, I'd like a chance to give a view to the titles.

Would you mind listing the books and authors here so I can have a good read? You said there were a few dozen, but I'll settle for a single dozen to get started. 😉 Surely I'm familiar with at least a couple of them.

Thanks a lot,
Jo

 

[PBL]

I love "conspiracy theories", they are so fascinating, and the people who create/believe in them always back them up with fact. They never just "make stuff up". And I respect that. The problem I have with your theory, Jim, is the same problem i have with everybody elses. Its a six-letter word and it starts with an "M". Guess what it is yet? Its "motive". The "Why" of it all. Why bother? And don't tell me to "divide and supress people", that is a method, not a goal. What's the illuminati's motive for all of this? Gimmie one good reason they have for doing it, and then I can consider this. I could set into motion some ridiculously complicated plan to make pink hats really popular. But frankly, I don't care if pink hats are popular or not. In the same vein, why should the Illuminati care if we wake up or not? Why did they start playing this game in the first place? What is there goal? To be cop - show cliched, there is no crime without motive. You may feel free to ignore this post completely if you plan to explain the "motive" part in one of your upcoming posts, I will, if I feel its necessary, address that in its appropiate thread.

 

[BigJim]

Big Jim Wrote...

<I>
But wait till you read my second part before you decide if you're happy or not.
</I>

I will wait in spellbound anticipation

Jeff of MTP is the tickleluminati

Let me know when I'm ready to "think for myself"

LOL I won't be able to do that, only you can! 😀😉

Actually, things have grown beyond the "2nd part" that it was originally scheduled for. I think it's going to be 5 or 6 before I've gone into all the little side-routes.
I hope it won't be too long before I can post it. Unfortunatley a very busy period at work rather caught me with my "pants down" as you yankees like to say.😛 Stay tuned anyway. I'll post a link here when I get the chance, to the second thread and I'll post a link back here, from it too.

 

[BigJim]

Would you mind listing the books and authors here so I can have a good read? You said there were a few dozen, but I'll settle for a single dozen to get started. 😉 Surely I'm familiar with at least a couple of them.

Thanks a lot,
Jo

LOL I doubt you'll have heard of most of them(kinda obscure I'd guess), but sure, feel free to read some. They won't be all concerned with the subject of this thread though. To tell the truth only one "book" was about it.(Said book was more useful for it's list of sources.) The "dozens" of titles range to everything from spirituality, to Freemasonic history, to Egyptian architecture.

P.S. I'm glad you have an "attitude" like Hal's. Even though he doesn't agree with most of what I've said, I've found him very open-minded and enquiring. That's all I care about really, that people don't dismiss anything out of hand. Whether they become a fellow "conspiracy-theorist" or not, is none of my business.

 

[BigJim]

The problem I have with your theory, Jim, is the same problem i have with everybody elses. Its a six-letter word and it starts with an "M". Guess what it is yet? Its "motive". The "Why" of it all. Why bother? And don't tell me to "divide and supress people", that is a method, not a goal.

Hmmm, well I said that because the method makes the goal obvious. If you believe in them, then they've always run the show over most of the world. By destroying the sense of harmony between people who would otherwise be friends and allies, it's a lot easier to make the world controllable. Ever since the re-emergence of civilisation about 9,000 years ago, it's always been an agenda of going after anything and everyone who've been remotely independant of them.

The motive they'd have for destroying peoples like the Aborigines and the Native Americans is because their spiritual beliefs are a lot more empowering for individuals than the ones created in Babylon. Theese tend to rule people by imposing guilt and misery and making them force these views on people wherever they went. I find it quite encouraging that people who call themselves muslim/christian/jew etc, are a lot more liberal minded these days. I think that's a very good sign.

 

[BigJim]

Re: the thread

Your thread made reference to September 11. The thing which bothers me most about this topic is that so many Americans have been lead to believe that Iraq was behind September 11, when it has been proven that they had nothing to do with it. The facts on this issue have been distorted by politicians and the mass media, and I don't think that honors the memory of those lost of September 11.

Have they ever! The american and British media have been lying and distorting just as capably as al-Jazeera. The main premise of Project TWAT has been that al-Qaeda did 9/11 and that Saddam was a buddy of Osama and therefore needed to be neutralised. I personally believe that neither of those assertions are true. I hope I eventually get round to writing directly about it. At the speed things are currently going, it should take about 90,000 words! lol

 

[BigJim]

Joby I tried e-mailing you, but your old AOL addy doesn't seem to be working. I'm gonna post them here instead.

 

[BigJim]

Here'a list of stuff you can peruse for a while. They're about most of the subjects I mentioned in the thread. Let me know what you think.


The Deadly Deception by Jim Shaw: A look at Freemasonry from a guy who was a 33rd Degree Freemason. Interesting, but sometimes hard to follow. He is probably the biggest whistle-blower on the secret society brigade.

The Mayan/Tutankhamun Prophecies by Maurice Cotterell: About things that were supposedly prophesised in ancient sciptures. Also a good way of comparing different religions from different parts of the world. The Mayan Prophecies was written with a co-author, but the Tut one was all his work. Can't remember who the co-author was. Also a good source for information about how humans can channel energy for healing and other psychic powers. I have yet to be able to make my own, fucntiong lightsabre though. 😀

Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike: A good one if you can get your hands on it. Not bad for seeing what the upper ranks of Freemasonry thinks of the lower ranks and us "mere mortals". Probably the most fascinating read I've ever had. (Not managed to get through all of it though. Only so much one person can absorb at a time. LOL)

...and the truth shall set you free by David Icke: Quite a decent collection of sources from a lot of different origins.(Easy enough to back-check the list at the end of every chapter.) Probably the world's more extreme conspiracy author. Easy to corroborate or disprove as he makes a list of his sources at the end of each different chapter. This is the bloke I started to pay more attention to, because he mentioned something close to my personal experiences. Some of his writing about the origins of the Illuminati are quite extreme, but as this was something I knew about, I felt I had to give him a decent reading.

He's also a good provider of sources on religion; although none of the history there is original. It all comes from other sources which he collates and repeats.( A bit like me really.) I decided to buy my English copy of the Koran after reading a book of his. Reading that makes you realise that Saladin was more humane that Richard the Lionheart, yet we had the gall to call the Muslims barbarians! . Religion is one of my favourite areas of research, so I found it quite enjoyable to backtrack things about it. It's a half-decent place to start if you're gonna read about government conspiracies. Some of it hard to swallow though. (But not as extreme as some of his others.)

The Spiritual Keys To The Kingdom by Diana Cooper: A book I love! Is a bit too close to "conventional religion" for my tastes, but reflects a lot of the spititual things I believe. You'll probably like this one a lot! Should strike quite close to what you believe in too. A book for anyone, not matter what their core beliefs.

The Orion Mystery by Robert Bauval: A good one for getting into ancient Egyptian mythology.One of my favourite cultures to study, because of their buildings and knowledge of architecture and engineering. Fascinating people.


Happy reading! Hope you get through them in time. Let me know what you think of all of them. I know you asked for a dozen, but this 6 or 7 should occupy you for a while. 😉

May the Force be with you! 😛

 

[PBL]

Why run the show though? Why do they want to? What's the point? Power grabs are "good" motivations for individuals not organizations. An organization that was made of people who just wanted to gain power would fall apart because of the infighting within its own members. An organization needs a specefic goal to function properly, and goal that isn't self-defeating. Despite what some people thing, governments don't exist just to consolidate power for example. They are there to protect the people, provide services, etc. If government didn't have these purposes, if it really was just a way to consolidate power, it wouldn't last very long. Everyone in the organization would be fighting everyone else in the organization to get to the top. It would fall apart. The only way I can see just power being a goal for your Illuminati is if its a secret society of 1 ridiculously powerful person. And that has its own problems 😉. Please, go and find me someone whose stated goal is to divide people. Have you ever heard someone say that? It just sounds ludicrious. "My goal in life is to keep people apart! Hahahahahah". I mean, those kinds of people only exist in fiction, and bad fiction at that because they are not believeable there either. Illuminati for the sake of Illuminati just doesn't work. Find me the Illuminati's true agenda (assuming they exist) and then i will be willing to accept the fact that they do exist. I hope you don't think I'm being close-minded, and I hope you don't think I think you're a crackpot, because I don't. There are just aspects of this idea that strike me as Machivellian without the need to unite Italy, if you know what I mean.

 

[BigJim]

Why run the show though? Why do they want to? What's the point?

Why does any one person or group want power? I guess you could ask any politician that. Or even better, (without trying to appear to fascetious) why did the Gods of Olympus keep the Greeks in their place? Why didn't they let humanity help run the cosmos? Certain types of people like being in power.

Power grabs are "good" motivations for individuals not organizations. An organization that was made of people who just wanted to gain power would fall apart because of the infighting within its own members. An organization needs a specefic goal to function properly, and goal that isn't self-defeating.

Well I've already said I believe there's been infighting. I belive there's always different parties within the organisation jockeying for power. I think that overall, they're mostly committed to the same agenda though. And who said there wasn't a specific goal? A single currency, single army, single bank and a microchipped population aren't specific goals? I guess they can sort out the semantics of where those goals will lead later, but that should be enough to go on with.

Despite what some people thing, governments don't exist just to consolidate power for example. They are there to protect the people, provide services, etc. If government didn't have these purposes, if it really was just a way to consolidate power, it wouldn't last very long.

No kidding it would'nt last very long. People aren't utterly stupid and a government without any sweetners for the population would be being far too obvious and overt with it's control. Besides which, the population does have some intrinsic value to them you know. If we weren't there there'd be shag-all to rule, would there?

Everyone in the organization would be fighting everyone else in the organization to get to the top. It would fall apart.

Fighting? Do you mean literally fighting or figurativley jockeying for position? There's inner campaigns all the time and you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to see that; it's obvious. And I've never seen a structure fall apart where there was contention for the top spot, not even in nature. When you consider you're dealing with some of the most intelligent and resourceful people on the planet, you have to realise that they won't rip apart the whole structure they rely on. That would make the utterly frigging daft, and they didn't get into their position over humanity by being daft.

The only way I can see just power being a goal for your Illuminati is if its a secret society of 1 ridiculously powerful person. And that has its own problems 😉. Please, go and find me someone whose stated goal is to divide people.

I never said that their "stated goal" was to divide people. I said that was a method they use to prevent people living in Iraq and Iran (for example), from seeing that there's no good reason for blowing the shit out of each other. But they create fictional divisions within a deeply flawed belief system (they're all deeply flawed according to my beliefs, not just Islam so please don't bother anyone calling me a rascist) and then tell people who live either side of a line drawn in the desert sand that the others on the other side of it are evil and need to be slaughtered. THAT'S the idea of divide and rule. (Or conquer.) A method, not the ultimate, desired result.

Have you ever heard someone say that? It just sounds ludicrious. "My goal in life is to keep people apart! Hahahahahah". I mean, those kinds of people only exist in fiction, and bad fiction at that because they are not believeable there either. Illuminati for the sake of Illuminati just doesn't work.

I've already corrected your mistaken assumption, so I won't bother again here. As far as I'm aware though, there's not even a work of fiction I've seen this mentioned in. Maybe I just don't read the bad stuff.

Find me the Illuminati's true agenda (assuming they exist) and then i will be willing to accept the fact that they do exist. I hope you don't think I'm being close-minded, and I hope you don't think I think you're a crackpot, because I don't. There are just aspects of this idea that strike me as Machivellian without the need to unite Italy, if you know what I mean.

I'm already describing what I see as their "agenda". People have more sources of information and are generally more aware these days than they were in the middle ages. It's a hell of a lot harder to keep people schtoopid and docile now. That means that more sources of disinformation are required (anyone mention Ted Turner?😀) so you get media that blatantly lies and feeds the UK and US public with misinformation. It's quite easy to prove that as well, and I've mentioned several examples with a lot more to come. (One of whom was the soon to be Chief of Defence Staff on the day of 9/11.)

Speaking of examples I'm assuming you read the whole of my post? Does your skeptiscism mean that you've checked out the legal codes I mentioned and double checked the Library of Congress and found out the information wasn't there? I'm assuming you have, because you seem very confident. 😀

As for believing that they exist or not, well that's totally up to you mate. I've presented part of the infomation I come across in my net trawls and reading and I share it. As far as I'm concerned you can believe that I'm telling the truth or you can believe I'm a complete frigging loony. You have the freedom of choice. Whatever you choose to believe is the truth, it's not my business to force you to believe otherwise. Whatever you end up believing, I don't mind mate. You can think I'm a fruit loop, it doesn't matter to me. Kick back and open the beers. lol

 

[PBL]

I never said I didn't think what you wrote wasn't true, at least as far as verifiable facts are concerned. I'm not going to contend that the stuff you mentioned thats on record is wrong, because I doubt anyone would claim something like that without knowing they were right, it would be too easy to prove them wrong. What I am saying, is power is not a good enough reason for anything. To go off on tangent for a min, as for gods well I don't know about you but I consider gods to have alien motivations that a human can't understand, so I am not going to comment on why they would or wouldn't power. I still don't think you're a crackpot. Getting back to the topic at hand though, I can't conceive of anyone who would want that much power without some reason to exercise it, ESPECIALLY intelligent and capable people. Power is nothing if you don't weild it. Power for the sake of power is meaningless. Power is a means, not an end. Its a tool, and like any other tool it has its purpose. You still haven't given me the purpose. I also believe that an organization that theoritically is made of the best and the brightest and whose desire is to rule the world would have pulled it off by now. Why hide? Its counter-productive. With the control you ascribe to them, they could tell the mob about their existence and have the mob LIKE the fact that they were in charge. Why are they hiding, if they are there? I want to reiterate, I am not and will not contend any facts you have presented, and I am merely suggesting that there are alternative explanations. Of course, for all you know, I could be a member trying to forstall discussion of the topic <g>

 

[BigJim]

What I am saying, is power is not a good enough reason for anything. To go off on tangent for a min, as for gods well I don't know about you but I consider gods to have alien motivations that a human can't understand, so I am not going to comment on why they would or wouldn't power.

Well you might not consider it, but you're presumably a reasonable person. lol Domination and systematic control has always been a fixation for the people I'm talking about. Probably the best way to understand it, is to resort to some fiction and watch Antz, the Disney movie. If you imagine the grasshoppers as the Illuminati and the ants as the normal people, you've pretty much got the situation sussed. You've also got the solution explained pretty clearly in that scene where the leader of the hoppers floods three of his mates with nuts.

Getting back to the topic at hand though, I can't conceive of anyone who would want that much power without some reason to exercise it, ESPECIALLY intelligent and capable people. Power is nothing if you don't weild it. Power for the sake of power is meaningless. Power is a means, not an end. Its a tool, and like any other tool it has its purpose. You still haven't given me the purpose.

Don't wield it? If nothing else they wield their power all the time. You might just as well say that life without some meaning besides existing as comfortably as possible is meaningless. Perhaps it is, but people will still read meaning into it and find reasons to do stuff that other people would not understand or appreciate.
Why would any one person or group want power? Hitler? Stalin? Palpatine? Pee-Wee Herman? What motivates anyone to build a dominating superstructure, group or individually based? Perhaps official history books, innaccurate as they may be in respect of perspective, could answer your question more eloquently than me. The purpose as far as I can explain it in my limited command of laguage, is the control and domination of all races, people and "nations" that exist in the world. Perhaps it is illogical for them to want that. But you're probably the only person in the world who's ever said that power for power's sake is pointless. For mosr dictators it's the WHOLE point.

I also believe that an organization that theoritically is made of the best and the brightest and whose desire is to rule the world would have pulled it off by now. Why hide? Its counter-productive. With the control you ascribe to them, they could tell the mob about their existence and have the mob LIKE the fact that they were in charge. Why are they hiding, if they are there?

Best and brightest, doesn't mean the most balanced. The people I'm talking about may have high IQ's and lots of money, but they're some of the most imbalanced and loveless individuals in creation. As for hiding being counter-productive, well that simply isn't true. Every overt dictatorship that has ever existed has fallen. (Even if it was only to a covert one, like with the United States.) It is too easy to tell that it's an nfair dictatorship and sooner or later there will be a rebellion against it. A man who doesn't know he is a slave, will not complain about his lack of freedom. Most Americans believe they're free born citizens of the greatest country in the free world. Their actual legal status if that of franchisees of a liquidated corporation owned chiefly by the Queen of England. You think if these things weren't hidden that there'd not be hell to pay? Can you imagine the reaction of the American public if Dubya admitted this stuff on national TV? They'd go batshit! Just the same way they'd go batshit if they knew how many civillian lives had knowingly been exterminated in Afghanistan and Iraq and how many kids had caught leukemia in Iraq because of radioactive weapons knowingly used in the first Gulf War.

I want to reiterate, I am not and will not contend any facts you have presented, and I am merely suggesting that there are alternative explanations. Of course, for all you know, I could be a member trying to forstall discussion of the topic <g>

Thanks very much for being a questioning and thinking person mate. It proves you're not a jellyfish or an automoton. I don't critiscise you for any questions or views you might have, please understand that. I just respond to them as best I can, from my point of view.

 

[BigJim]

I also believe that an organization that theoritically is made of the best and the brightest and whose desire is to rule the world would have pulled it off by now.

Hmmm, here's where we've got a perspective problem. The thing is (according to what I believe) that they pulled it off centuries ago and that all the current machinations are their way of trying to contain a human race that is expanding beyond their power to control. Humanity is switching on more and more with every passing day.
For every way that humanity evolves, so they have to evolve to maintain control. That is why you will see massive moves towards centralisation of government and finances and military. The EU will eventually gravitate closer towards bodies like APEC and NAFTA. I think the agenda is that they will eventually try to merge. Then you'll have one bank, one army and one government. As you say, pointless and quite sad. What will be worse is the microchipped population.

If you are questioning at the moment though, wait till you hear some of the stuff about world leaders backgrounds. It is really quite chilling.

 

[JoBelle]

Thanks Jimbob!
I'll have to do some peeping now.

And by the way, I haven't used aol in over a year...hehe, time flies eh? I think you have that OTHER addy though.

Joby

 

[BigJim]

Thanks Jimbob!
I'll have to do some peeping now.

And by the way, I haven't used aol in over a year...hehe, time flies eh? I think you have that OTHER addy though.

Joby

Flies? It bleeding gallops!

Is the other addy your Yahoo one?