Bret Vs. Shawn – The Morality Match

[BigJim]

Interesting question for me, this one. It’s one that has been rumbling around for a decade and a half. I should mention that I’ve been a wrestling fan since 1992 (specifically, a World Wrestling Federation fan), when I first saw Wrestlemania 8, then several PPV’s from before that on video.

I originally supported the Ultimate Warrior, with a slight leaning toward Hulk Hogan. Within two years though, I was a Bret Hart fan through and through.

My love for the WWF was fatally wounded on the ninth of November, 1997. Don’t know what happened on that date? Obviously never heard anything about professional wrestling then. After that date, the WWF went from the absurd to the ridiculous as far as I was concerned. A title reign that lasted a full month was an oddity and there were more titles than wrestlers to hold them. Gold was cheap and rather pointless.

The thing that killed it totally for me was the brand split, after WCW/ECW went out of business. I did and do think it was ridiculous to split the one company into two brands. I couldn’t reconcile the thought of one company having two world titles, plus the US title, IC title, two versions of the tag team titles and two different women’s titles (not to mention the Hardcore title which seemed to change hands upwards of a dozen times a night, every Raw, always mysteriously ending up back with the person who had it to start with). The stories had become ridiculous and pointless, the titles worthless. The currency of professional wrestling was permanently debased.



I occasionally search for things on Youtube concerning wrestling. I like occasionally to relive the old days before D-X/The Clique cornered the market in being selfish, self-agrandizing, talent murdering assholes (I’m loathe to admit it, but I prefer the American version of that word to the British when I’m angry) and trying to turn the WWF into what WCW became before it died.

A couple of months ago I searched for “Bret Hart” and was amazed beyond words to find that he had returned to the WWF at the start of this year.

Even given that he had been on proper speaking terms with Vince McMahon since 2005 or 2006, I never expected to see him because of the complications regarding his stroke. Now he had not only returned, but had… fought a fucking street fight at Wrestlemania?!?!?!? How the feckity feck fecking feck had he managed that? It turned out it had been a ten-minute potato-fest of a squash match, that looked like Vince McMahon was desperately trying to avoid being sent to hell by letting Bret paralyze him. A truly shit match judged on its merits, but worth watching for its historical value. The only reason I bought the Wrestlemania DVD actually.

I Youtubed myself to death for a couple of days finding out that he’d come back for a night to be a guest announcer on Raw. When he came out to the ring and started talking about how he’d wanted to come back and say hello for years, but had not been able to because Vince had always stopped it, I realised the entire thing was a work from the start, because Vince had been trying to get Bret back for years and Bret had been the one who hadn’t had it in him to come.

So what was he going to say now he was in the ring with a mic in his hand? He’s calling out Shawn Michaels?!?!?!?! Wah-fucking hey, let’s not waste any time, eh?

Sadly, I knew by now that Michaels was facing his retirement match against Taker, so no long-term angle was going to happen here. And let’s face it, without being able to take so much as a bump, a match between these two was never going to be worth contemplating. Still, I desperately wanted to see Bret kick Shawn in the bollocks, instead of shaking his hand, and I’m fairly sure he wanted to himself because that “You deserved what happened to you, because disrespected me and you disrespected this business” line looked like a flat-out shoot to me, judging from the expression on what is left of Bret’s face.

Then Shawn teases us with a second of looking like he’s going for a super kick before fully embracing Bret and leaving him in the middle of the ring.

It’s nearly a decade and a half since the Montreal Screwjob and in that time I’ve read both Shawn Michael’s autobiography and Bret’s. I’ve also listened to a bazillion interviews and read a bazillion articles about it.

I have a number of strong opinions about the matter (does this surprise anyone who knows me?) which are of course, worth nothing to anyone except me. I wasn’t there and I’ve never personally met anyone who was. I am strictly piloting an armchair on this one.

My stance on the whole Montreal thing, is that I am on Hart’s side. I understand a little bit about the wrestling business, having once dabbled in it a very little myself and followed it for many years. I’m a Smark, if you will.

I’ve heard professional criticism of Bret for not wanting to put Shawn over clean in Montreal, but none of them are ones that I haven’t heard convincing refutations of. Most bitching I hear against Bret has either been from Ric Flair (of whom I’ve long held the opinion that he is a complete ****, and even longer held the opinion that he is massively over-rated as a performer) or people who looked like they were trying to climb the McMahon greasy pole, like Paul Wight.

Now I usually do better in these sorts of discussions when I’m replying to things other people have said, so for now I’ll shut the hell up and let y’all chime in with what you think.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Shawn sold out on a professional level when he did what he did in 97, it was wrong, and not much different then what happened to me about a year ago at work. I wouldn't have forgiven him for his SCAB like actions (even if they aren't Union it was still a SCAB move). Bret on the other hand sold out his brother Owen's memory by returning to work for the company that, for all intense and purposes, caused his brothers death. This to me is even worse then anything Shawn did, and beneath contempt on Hart's part. On a lesser note Bret sold himself out when he had the retarded match with Vince at WrestleMania... what a disgrace he had proven himself to be.

ST

 

[Lonestar327]

The question I put forth is this, what did Bret expect after survivor series?

If memory serves me right, Bret was still to be then WWF Champion after survivor series and even though he was ready to jump to WCW and that was his last match in WWF. So did he think Vince going to be okay with the fact that he was taking his belt to WCW? or am I missing something?

I long maintained that HBK had no clue of what was going on with the main event in Montreal, and my faith in that was misguided in that, well not so much misguided as misplaced, but did Bret think that Vince going to be okay with him not only going to a big rival, but taking his belt on to there show?

 

[magic fingers]

Interesting question for me, this one. It’s one that has been rumbling around for a decade and a half. I should mention that I’ve been a wrestling fan since 1992 (specifically, a World Wrestling Federation fan), when I first saw Wrestlemania 8, then several PPV’s from before that on video.

I originally supported the Ultimate Warrior, with a slight leaning toward Hulk Hogan. Within two years though, I was a Bret Hart fan through and through.

My love for the WWF was fatally wounded on the ninth of November, 1997. Don’t know what happened on that date? Obviously never heard anything about professional wrestling then. After that date, the WWF went from the absurd to the ridiculous as far as I was concerned. A title reign that lasted a full month was an oddity and there were more titles than wrestlers to hold them. Gold was cheap and rather pointless.

The thing that killed it totally for me was the brand split, after WCW/ECW went out of business. I did and do think it was ridiculous to split the one company into two brands. I couldn’t reconcile the thought of one company having two world titles, plus the US title, IC title, two versions of the tag team titles and two different women’s titles (not to mention the Hardcore title which seemed to change hands upwards of a dozen times a night, every Raw, always mysteriously ending up back with the person who had it to start with). The stories had become ridiculous and pointless, the titles worthless. The currency of professional wrestling was permanently debased.



I occasionally search for things on Youtube concerning wrestling. I like occasionally to relive the old days before D-X/The Clique cornered the market in being selfish, self-agrandizing, talent murdering assholes (I’m loathe to admit it, but I prefer the American version of that word to the British when I’m angry) and trying to turn the WWF into what WCW became before it died.

A couple of months ago I searched for “Bret Hart” and was amazed beyond words to find that he had returned to the WWF at the start of this year.

Even given that he had been on proper speaking terms with Vince McMahon since 2005 or 2006, I never expected to see him because of the complications regarding his stroke. Now he had not only returned, but had… fought a fucking street fight at Wrestlemania?!?!?!? How the feckity feck fecking feck had he managed that? It turned out it had been a ten-minute potato-fest of a squash match, that looked like Vince McMahon was desperately trying to avoid being sent to hell by letting Bret paralyze him. A truly shit match judged on its merits, but worth watching for its historical value. The only reason I bought the Wrestlemania DVD actually.

I Youtubed myself to death for a couple of days finding out that he’d come back for a night to be a guest announcer on Raw. When he came out to the ring and started talking about how he’d wanted to come back and say hello for years, but had not been able to because Vince had always stopped it, I realised the entire thing was a work from the start, because Vince had been trying to get Bret back for years and Bret had been the one who hadn’t had it in him to come.

So what was he going to say now he was in the ring with a mic in his hand? He’s calling out Shawn Michaels?!?!?!?! Wah-fucking hey, let’s not waste any time, eh?

Sadly, I knew by now that Michaels was facing his retirement match against Taker, so no long-term angle was going to happen here. And let’s face it, without being able to take so much as a bump, a match between these two was never going to be worth contemplating. Still, I desperately wanted to see Bret kick Shawn in the bollocks, instead of shaking his hand, and I’m fairly sure he wanted to himself because that “You deserved what happened to you, because disrespected me and you disrespected this business” line looked like a flat-out shoot to me, judging from the expression on what is left of Bret’s face.

Then Shawn teases us with a second of looking like he’s going for a super kick before fully embracing Bret and leaving him in the middle of the ring.

It’s nearly a decade and a half since the Montreal Screwjob and in that time I’ve read both Shawn Michael’s autobiography and Bret’s. I’ve also listened to a bazillion interviews and read a bazillion articles about it.

I have a number of strong opinions about the matter (does this surprise anyone who knows me?) which are of course, worth nothing to anyone except me. I wasn’t there and I’ve never personally met anyone who was. I am strictly piloting an armchair on this one.

My stance on the whole Montreal thing, is that I am on Hart’s side. I understand a little bit about the wrestling business, having once dabbled in it a very little myself and followed it for many years. I’m a Smark, if you will.

I’ve heard professional criticism of Bret for not wanting to put Shawn over clean in Montreal, but none of them are ones that I haven’t heard convincing refutations of. Most bitching I hear against Bret has either been from Ric Flair (of whom I’ve long held the opinion that he is a complete ****, and even longer held the opinion that he is massively over-rated as a performer) or people who looked like they were trying to climb the McMahon greasy pole, like Paul Wight.

Now I usually do better in these sorts of discussions when I’m replying to things other people have said, so for now I’ll shut the hell up and let y’all chime in with what you think.

First let me say I feel bad for Bret. He's been thru hell the last 15 years. First the Montreal Screwjob. Then Owens tragic death, followed by the death of his brother in law, Davey Boy Smith. Then the career ending injury at the hands of Goldberg(who IMO didn't even belong a Professional Wrestling Ring). Finally the stroke. It seems like Bret has had one tragedy after another since the mid-nineties.
That being said, I couldn't stand Bret Hart when he was in the WWF. I always thought he was conceited, boring and a phony w/zero charisma. He always talked about HBK being arrogant and cocky, but the Hitman was the one calling himself "The best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be." That's about as cocky as you can get. And after he lost the Iron Man match against Shawn, he basically ran away and hid for a year, like a little punk. And even during his year off, he kept taking cheap shots at Michaels. And then when he came back, he did nothing but bitch and moan, and cry about how the fans didn't cheer for him, and how he was always "being screwed". That's something else Hart was good at - blaming other people for his problems. Whether it was HBK, Steve Austin, Vince MacMahon(prior to the Montreal Screwjob. Obviously Hart had every right to be p***d about that), and eventually America. Funny how Bret didn't have a problem w/the U.S. when he was winning titles, and being cheered by the fans. He was also a phony in how he portrayed himself as some sort of hero(please give me a break. To me real heroes are Police Officers, Firefighters and the U.S. Military, people who risk their lives to protect others.) I also thought it was hypocritical that Bret also passed himself off as this paragon of honor and integrity while he was cheating on his wife w/Sunny Stytch.
But I could've looked past all this, if Hart was at least entertaining in the Ring. IMO, he wasn't. His matches were boring as hell almost as bad as Steve Austins. He was slow, predictable, and incredibly dull in the Ring. Even his finishing move, The Sharpshooter was a rip-off of Stings Scorpion Deathlock. By comparison HBK was a far superior in-ring performer. He was faster, a better athelete, took more risks, was more innovative, and put his body on the line everytime he put on the tights and laced up the boots. Look at his last match against the Undertaker. Even though HBK was well past his prime, he still much more entertaining and dynamic than Hart was on his best day. Hell, IMO, the late Owen Hart was a much better athelete and wrestler than Bret. I could never figure out why MacMahon and the powers that be in the WWF decided to force Bret down our throats when Owen had much more talent.
And as far as DX is concerned, I loved it. After years of Hart's whining about not being respected, it was a pleasant change to see guys like HBK and HHH who actually had a sense of humor, and didn't take themselves so damn seriously. Remember, it's Sports ENTERTAINMENT.
As far as Ric Flair is concerned, IMO in his prime, he was also light years ahead of Bret Hart as a performer and entertainer. My only problem w/Flair is that his prime was about 20 years ago, and doesn't seem to realize it. He's become a washed up caricture of himself trying to hang onto a shred of dignity. Hang it up Nature Boy. Nobody wants to see that body in tights anymore

 

[BigJim]

Shawn sold out on a professional level when he did what he did in 97, it was wrong, and not much different then what happened to me about a year ago at work. I wouldn't have forgiven him for his SCAB like actions (even if they aren't Union it was still a SCAB move). Bret on the other hand sold out his brother Owen's memory by returning to work for the company that, for all intense and purposes, cause his brothers death. This to me is ever worse then anything Shawn did, and beneath contempt on Hart's part. On a lesser note Bret sold himself out when he had the retarded match with Vince at WrestleMania... what a disgrace he had proven himself to be.

ST

Hmmm.

I'm not sure about the selling out by returning to Vince's company. Mainly because I don't know whose idea it was to come up with that descent-from-the-rafters entrance. If it was Vince's idea, then there are serious implications yes, but was it? It could have been any one of about six people, at least four of whom haven't worked for Vince for some years. As things go, it's my understanding that Vince doesn't automatically go through every angle in every minor match and formally approve it.

You could say that Vince, as chairman, should take the blame for everybody's actions within the company, but I personally don't accept that. Having said that, I hold Vince directly responsible for the deaths of several people on account of him being an utter fucking slavedriver and using fear tactics to prevent the formation of a legitimate union.

 

[BigJim]

The question I put forth is this, what did Bret expect after survivor series?
If memory serves me right, Bret was still to be then WWF Champion after survivor series and even though he was ready to jump to WCW and that was his last match in WWF. So did he think Vince going to be okay with the fact that he was taking his belt to WCW? or am I missing something?

This is a common misconception actually, and it falls on a number of points.

1/ Bret did not refuse to drop the belt in the ring, nor was he automatically going to leave the WWF immediately after Survivor Series. He offered to drop the belt to at leat three different people (Austin, Foley or Taker), even going so far as to say he would stay on until the December PPV (which I don't think was called Armageddon at the time), or even the Royal Rumble in January. His contract with WCW allowed him to start as late as, I think, February, if he wished.
Survivor Series being his last WWF appearance was not something Bret planned until after the screwjob and his subsquent knocking out of Vince.
It is true that after Vince shot these ideas down that he made the suggestion of showing up on Raw the night after and handing Vince the belt in a relinquishing of the title, but that was his last idea, not his first or even his second.

That brings me to a substantial critiscism of Shawn actually. According to his autobiography, he says that the initial idea of a screwjob was his and Hunter's and that Vince agreed to it, subsequently taking the full can for it on the night.
He did this, he says, because of his outrage of Bret not "doing the job".
Outrage? This is the man who developed a mysterious career-ending knee injury after he won the title off of Sid at the Royal Rumble after which he gave the title up, rather than dropping it.
Just coincidentally, he was scripted to put none other than Bret over at Wrestlemania 13 three months later. To quote the Undertaker,

"Bullshit. I'll believe it when I see the scar. The little bastard doesn't want to drop the belt."

The scar incidentally was never forthcoming. Just a few months later, without needing any surgery whatsoever, Shawn is back in the ring without so much as a hobble.
Shawn Michaels is, in my not so humble opinion, a goddamn fucking little hypocrite.

2/ Bret maintains, and I don't think today that Vince disbelieves this, that he would never have done what Alundra Blayze did. Not least because Vince sucessfully sued WCW for trademark infringement for that little stunt. Given the loyalty circumstances around Bret's re-signing with the WWF just before Survivor Series 1996 (he continued with Vince despite being offered a substantially larger payday by WCW), I do not believe that Bret would have considered for one second showing up on Nitro with the WWF belt.

I long maintained that HBK had no clue of what was going on with the main event in Montreal, and my faith in that was misguided in that, well not so much misguided as misplaced, but did Bret think that Vince going to be okay with him not only going to a big rival, but taking his belt on to there show?

Shawn not only was in on it but came up with most of it, including the original idea. That's according to the man himself. Vince was just the authorising authority and according to Shawn, he ordered him to deny everything on the night and let him take all responsibility.

 

[BigJim]

That being said, I couldn't stand Bret Hart when he was in the WWF. I always thought he was conceited, boring and a phony w/zero charisma. He always talked about HBK being arrogant and cocky, but the Hitman was the one calling himself "The best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be." That's about as cocky as you can get. And after he lost the Iron Man match against Shawn, he basically ran away and hid for a year, like a little punk. And even during his year off, he kept taking cheap shots at Michaels. And then when he came back, he did nothing but bitch and moan, and cry about how the fans didn't cheer for him, and how he was always "being screwed". That's something else Hart was good at - blaming other people for his problems. Whether it was HBK, Steve Austin, Vince MacMahon(prior to the Montreal Screwjob. Obviously Hart had every right to be p***d about that), and eventually America. Funny how Bret didn't have a problem w/the U.S. when he was winning titles, and being cheered by the fans. He was also a phony in how he portrayed himself as some sort of hero(please give me a break. To me real heroes are Police Officers, Firefighters and the U.S. Military, people who risk their lives to protect others.) I also thought it was hypocritical that Bret also passed himself off as this paragon of honor and integrity while he was cheating on his wife w/Sunny Stytch.
But I could've looked past all this, if Hart was at least entertaining in the Ring. IMO, he wasn't. His matches were boring as hell almost as bad as Steve Austins. He was slow, predictable, and incredibly dull in the Ring. Even his finishing move, The Sharpshooter was a rip-off of Stings Scorpion Deathlock. By comparison HBK was a far superior in-ring performer. He was faster, a better athelete, took more risks, was more innovative, and put his body on the line everytime he put on the tights and laced up the boots. Look at his last match against the Undertaker. Even though HBK was well past his prime, he still much more entertaining and dynamic than Hart was on his best day. Hell, IMO, the late Owen Hart was a much better athelete and wrestler than Bret. I could never figure out why MacMahon and the powers that be in the WWF decided to force Bret down our throats when Owen had much more talent.
And as far as DX is concerned, I loved it. After years of Hart's whining about not being respected, it was a pleasant change to see guys like HBK and HHH who actually had a sense of humor, and didn't take themselves so damn seriously. Remember, it's Sports ENTERTAINMENT.
As far as Ric Flair is concerned, IMO in his prime, he was also light years ahead of Bret Hart as a performer and entertainer. My only problem w/Flair is that his prime was about 20 years ago, and doesn't seem to realize it. He's become a washed up caricture of himself trying to hang onto a shred of dignity. Hang it up Nature Boy. Nobody wants to see that body in tights anymore

Ummm..... you are aware that wrestling is scripted, right? Assuming you aren't, here's a few pointers.


1/ Bret himself admits that he was lacking in the charisma stakes, having less mic ability and so on than many others like Shawn, Hulk etc. He was however, in good physical condition for a guy who was only six foot one, and contrary to your opinion (which you are of course entitled to) is universally acclaimed as one of the greatest workers and story tellers in wrestling history. Vince himself puts Bret second only to Buddy Rogers in that regard.

2/ Bret is, I admit, not one for what he probably thinks of as false modesty. He genuinely believes that he was a consumate professional in that he didn't miss more than one town in nearly a decade and a half and only caused about two accidental injuries to colleagues in his entire career.

3/ After Wrestlemania he was actually "gone" for about six months, not a year. And in that time he still worked foreign tours for the WWF, he just wasn't doing regular TV work.
Until Wrestlemania 12 he had been working constantly since before Wrestlemania 1, so he had been working three hundred days a year for more than twelve years. Considering most wrestlers go between four and six years before taking that sort of amount of time off, I hardly think Bret can be blamed for doing so and it sounds rather silly when someone tries to.

4/ Bret's cockiness and sniping at Shawn: On his return he was supposed to work a program with Shawn (after Shawn finished his run with Sid). It would have involved Shawn first putting him over (at Wrestlemania 13) and then Bret putting him back over around the time of Survivor series (there's irony for you). After an absence of six months from the TV shows, if Bret hadn't been trying to get heat on Shawn during his time off, there would have been zero intrest at the start of the run, which would have been a financial blowout for the company. Why the hell wouldn't he have been critiscising Shawn? Again I ask, you do realise this is all scripted right?

5/ Bitching and moaning/anti-US: You do realise this is all scripted, right? I'm beginning to seriously wonder.
Bret actually found the whole angle rather absurd, though fun at times when he was in Canada. He found it so because he's actually half American and half Canadian. His mother is from New York and he carries a United States passport.
The angle where he turned against America was due entiirely to the fact that the crowds were beginningt o cheer people like Austin and boo characters like his. The fans themselves became inadvertantly involved in the scripts of the WWF.

6/ Shawn was an amazing worker yes. I don't personally believe he was as good as Bret, because he was a snidey little two-faced bastard on a number of levels. He was certainly more FLASH BANG than Bret, but that doesn't make him "better". Just a different type of worker.

7/ Bret himself says Owen was the most gifted Hart family wrestler.

8/ D-X not taking themselves seriously. I'm assuming you mean on-screen. Behind the scenes Shawn, Levesque, NAsh, Waltman and Hall tried to turn the WWF into what WCW eventually became: a clique of selfish wankers who pushed themselves and each other at the expense of everyone else and stifled new talent. And we all remember how great WCW turned out, don't we? They were worth a paltry five hundred thousand dollars when Vince bought them out, compared to the WWF which was worth more than a billion. That is not not taking themselves seriously. The best thing that ever happened to the company was when Waltman, Hall and Nash fucked off to Turnerland and took their repellant philosophy with them.

 

[SlaverTickler]

The question I put forth is this, what did Bret expect after survivor series?

If memory serves me right, Bret was still to be then WWF Champion after survivor series and even though he was ready to jump to WCW and that was his last match in WWF. So did he think Vince going to be okay with the fact that he was taking his belt to WCW? or am I missing something?

I long maintained that HBK had no clue of what was going on with the main event in Montreal, and my faith in that was misguided in that, well not so much misguided as misplaced, but did Bret think that Vince going to be okay with him not only going to a big rival, but taking his belt on to there show?

1) Bret (at the time) had more class then Ric Flair and wouldn't have done that. Bret offered to drop the belt to either Austin or Mick Foley (acording to Mick Foley's "Have A Nice Day" biography) or surender the title in Ottowa. What Bret probably expected from Vince was some gradatude for turning down a 3 Million $ Contract to go to WCW the year before, not to mention the 14 years of hard work making talentless mucle heads look like athleats.

2) if you believe that then your a fool, Shawn has come out and stated that he not only knew what was going to happen, but he helped plan it (along with Brisco and Jim Cornett). Thus he is no better then a SCAB, and deserves to be run over by a bus.

 

[SlaverTickler]

8/ D-X not taking themselves seriously. I'm assuming you mean on-screen. Behind the scenes Shawn, Levesque, NAsh, Waltman and Hall tried to turn the WWF into what WCW eventually became: a clique of selfish wankers who pushed themselves and each other at the expense of everyone else and stifled new talent. And we all remember how great WCW turned out, don't we? They were worth a paltry five hundred thousand dollars when Vince bought them out, compared to the WWF which was worth more than a billion. That is not not taking themselves seriously. The best thing that ever happened to the company was when Waltman, Hall and Nash fucked off to Turnerland and took their repellant philosophy with them.

This...

Ironicly, before there big fall out, Shawn had asked Bret (who was world champion at the time) to be the leader of the clique. Bret turned it down and I believe this is probably what started most of the problems between the two of them.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Hmmm.

I'm not sure about the selling out by returning to Vince's company. Mainly because I don't know whose idea it was to come up with that descent-from-the-rafters entrance. If it was Vince's idea, then there are serious implications yes, but was it? It could have been any one of about six people, at least four of whom haven't worked for Vince for some years. As things go, it's my understanding that Vince doesn't automatically go through every angle in every minor match and formally approve it.

You could say that Vince, as chairman, should take the blame for everybody's actions within the company, but I personally don't accept that. Having said that, I hold Vince directly responsible for the deaths of several people on account of him being an utter fucking slavedriver and using fear tactics to prevent the formation of a legitimate union.

First of all Jim, I have liked everything you have said so far. Secound, do you think anything that happens at a WWE PPV with out Vince giving the final go ahead? Especialy at one of the big 4 (Manai, SummerSlam, Survivor Series, or The Royal Rumble) I would have to believe neither of us would say yes to that. 3rd, do you think he would have agreed to let Shane do it? and if so wouldn't he have made sure every precotion was taken? I don't think he would risk his own son's life needlessly so what gave him the right to risk Stu and Helens youngest?

This event above all others has forced me to ask two questions:
What is it going to take before Pro Wrestlers relize they need a union?
What will it take before wrestling fans decide to boycott the buisness becuase they are sick of there heroe's dying for nothing.

LANCE CADE WAS 29 FUCKING YEARS OLD FOR FUCK SAKES!!!!

Wasn't yelling at you Jimmy-Boy, just venting.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

This...

Ironicly, before there big fall out, Shawn had asked Bret (who was world champion at the time) to be the leader of the clique. Bret turned it down and I believe this is probably what started most of the problems between the two of them.

Bret's as much to blame as Shawn is when it comes to how there relationship ended up. Bret was an unprovoked-dick to Shawn at times.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Bret's as much to blame as Shawn is when it comes to how there relationship ended up. Bret was an unprovoked-dick to Shawn at times.

Really? How so? Exactly what did Bret do to Shawn, pull a rib? Refuse to kiss his ass like Triple H? Or when he refused to screw the Rock's push when he turned down the offer to win the IC title from the Rock when Hunter and HBK were booking? What exactly did he do to invite the wrath of the all mighty clique?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dDaUQ1RlbZI?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dDaUQ1RlbZI?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KS0uc5Mu1f0?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KS0uc5Mu1f0?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I guess part two sort of puts a damper on your view of things. I still think Bret sold out going back to work for McMahon after what happened to Owen. I guess that's between him an God. Vince's disregard for Owen's safety took a good man from his family and took a great performer from the fans. I for one can't forgive that.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Really? How so? Exactly what did Bret do to Shawn, pull a rib? Refuse to kiss his ass like Triple H? Or when he refused to screw the Rock's push when he turned down the offer to win the IC title from the Rock when Hunter and HBK were booking? What exactly did he do to invite the wrath of the all mighty clique?

I've heard Shawn speak about Bret being an ass to him and not being straight-forward with him on a lot of occasions.

 

[magic fingers]

Really? How so? Exactly what did Bret do to Shawn, pull a rib? Refuse to kiss his ass like Triple H? Or when he refused to screw the Rock's push when he turned down the offer to win the IC title from the Rock when Hunter and HBK were booking? What exactly did he do to invite the wrath of the all mighty clique?

Are you kidding? Bret treated Shawn like s**t. He dogged Shawn on several occasions. He called him a Punk, called him gutless, a piece of trash, said he "wasn't as tough as he(Bret) was" (I love it. A guy wearing pink tights talking about being tough), said he was "too cocky"(I'm sorry but who was the one calling himself "The Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be?". How is that not cocky?) several times referred to Shawn as a degenerate and a poor role model, because he had a flashy entrance and liked to dance during his intro(I guess whining about being screwed, cheating on your wife and blaming other people for your problems is being a great role model, right Bret?). He refused to give Shawn any credit after losing to him in the Ironman match at Wrestlemania, refusing to shake his hand after the match. He joked about HBK's concussion(which was real, not part of a script) when he was jumped by those thugs in Syracuse saying Shawn was beaten up by "a bunch of cheerleaders". He even wrote an article in a Wrestling magazine ripping HBP apart, calling him a "Waste of Human Flesh"
Keep in kind this was all BEFORE the Montreal Screwjob.

 

[BigJim]

This...

Ironicly, before there big fall out, Shawn had asked Bret (who was world champion at the time) to be the leader of the clique. Bret turned it down and I believe this is probably what started most of the problems between the two of them.

Aye, the two had totally different philosophies on how wrestling should be run. Considering how market-cornering Hickenbottom, Hall, Nash, Levesque and Waltman were, I still scratch my head in wonder at why Vince fell over himself to give Shawn everything in the world around this time. Not least when you consider how fucking crap house show crowd numbers were when Shawn was champion.

 

[BigJim]

First of all Jim, I have liked everything you have said so far. Secound, do you think anything that happens at a WWE PPV with out Vince giving the final go ahead? Especialy at one of the big 4 (Manai, SummerSlam, Survivor Series, or The Royal Rumble) I would have to believe neither of us would say yes to that. 3rd, do you think he would have agreed to let Shane do it? and if so wouldn't he have made sure every precotion was taken? I don't think he would risk his own son's life needlessly so what gave him the right to risk Stu and Helens youngest?

This event above all others has forced me to ask two questions:
What is it going to take before Pro Wrestlers relize they need a union?
What will it take before wrestling fans decide to boycott the buisness becuase they are sick of there heroe's dying for nothing.

LANCE CADE WAS 29 FUCKING YEARS OLD FOR FUCK SAKES!!!!

Wasn't yelling at you Jimmy-Boy, just venting.

Owen didn't die at one of the big ones, he died at an In Your House event.

I believe Vince has involvement at all levels of his business, but I don't think he personally dreams up everything. That's why he has bookers and writers and why he asks the wrestlers to have input themselves. To what degree in the planning of the Owen incident he had involvement, I don't know.

Pro wrestlers will not get a union until the top boys actively promote it and they won't do shit because their positions rely on them sucking Vince's dick.

 

[BigJim]

I'm sorry but who was the one calling himself "The Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be?". How is that not cocky?)

Before I answer anything else, I've got to address this. (Again.)

Magic, I've asked this before and I'll ask it again, do you know the difference between a kayfabe IC statement and a shoot? Do you even know wrestling is scripted?

 

[BigJim]

Are you kidding? Bret treated Shawn like s**t. He dogged Shawn on several occasions. He called him a Punk, called him gutless, a piece of trash, said he "wasn't as tough as he(Bret) was" (I love it. A guy wearing pink tights talking about being tough), said he was "too cocky"(I'm sorry but who was the one calling himself "The Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be?". How is that not cocky?) several times referred to Shawn as a degenerate and a poor role model, because he had a flashy entrance and liked to dance during his intro(I guess whining about being screwed, cheating on your wife and blaming other people for your problems is being a great role model, right Bret?). He refused to give Shawn any credit after losing to him in the Ironman match at Wrestlemania, refusing to shake his hand after the match. He joked about HBK's concussion(which was real, not part of a script) when he was jumped by those thugs in Syracuse saying Shawn was beaten up by "a bunch of cheerleaders". He even wrote an article in a Wrestling magazine ripping HBP apart, calling him a "Waste of Human Flesh"
Keep in kind this was all BEFORE the Montreal Screwjob.

Some of those insults you are refering to were actually scripted by Shawn and Hunter, because they were on the knob-cobblering booking commitee!

The refusal of a handshake, if it were "real" would have been justified by the comment Shawn made about five seconds after he won that match. ("Get the fuck out of the ring. This is MY moment!")
As it happens, it was kayfabe and had been scripted because Bret was due (at the time, it didn't pan out) to continue with Shawn after his layoff and after Shawn had finished feuding with Sid. There was supposed to be scripted bad blood between them to fuel that rivalry, as Shawn was down to put Bret over at WM 13, then win the title back at Summerslam or Survivor Series. Something that didn't happen because Shawn fucking faked a knee injury that was supposed to be career ending but not only didn't require surgery, but disappeared in time for him to be back by King of the Ring.

Thugs in Syracuse? Was that the gang of marines who got irate when Shawn tried to pick up one of their girlfriends?

Which magazine was the article in? If it was a "normal" one, then it's entirely possible that it was kayfabe (Do you even know what the word means?). Given that Bret was old-school when it came to "protecting the business", I don't find that entirely implausible.

 

[SlaverTickler]

I've heard Shawn speak about Bret being an ass to him and not being straight-forward with him on a lot of occasions.

Maybe that was because Bret figured out what type of guy he was dealing with. Over the past 7 years I have learned not to trust some of the people I work with, to little to late as it turns out, but I wouldn't be 100% honest with them either. If you feel you can't trust somebody how straight-forward would you be?

 

[SlaverTickler]

Owen didn't die at one of the big ones, he died at an In Your House event.

I believe Vince has involvement at all levels of his business, but I don't think he personally dreams up everything. That's why he has bookers and writers and why he asks the wrestlers to have input themselves. To what degree in the planning of the Owen incident he had involvement, I don't know.

Ironicly Owen died at a PPV called Over the Edge I believe. I was using the big 4 to point out Vince would be on top of them more then any other. Howere in the end Vince has the final say in what is or isn't done on his shows. True Owen does share a degree of responsability for agreeing to do the bit, but as I recall the rigging he tested with was different from the one they ended up using at the event. In the end Vince decided that the few extra minuets it would take to remove the safty back ups was worth risking Owen's life. The WWE went out of their way to find a company that would to the wire work with out the back wiring, and Hart died because of their greed. I wonder if people realize what a selfish decition that was?

Pro wrestlers will not get a union until the top boys actively promote it and they won't do shit because their positions rely on them sucking Vince's dick.

I agree.

 

[SlaverTickler]

Are you kidding? Bret treated Shawn like s**t. He dogged Shawn on several occasions. He called him a Punk, called him gutless, a piece of trash, said he "wasn't as tough as he(Bret) was" (I love it. A guy wearing pink tights talking about being tough), said he was "too cocky"(I'm sorry but who was the one calling himself "The Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be?". How is that not cocky?) several times referred to Shawn as a degenerate and a poor role model, because he had a flashy entrance and liked to dance during his intro(I guess whining about being screwed, cheating on your wife and blaming other people for your problems is being a great role model, right Bret?). He refused to give Shawn any credit after losing to him in the Ironman match at Wrestlemania, refusing to shake his hand after the match. He joked about HBK's concussion(which was real, not part of a script) when he was jumped by those thugs in Syracuse saying Shawn was beaten up by "a bunch of cheerleaders". He even wrote an article in a Wrestling magazine ripping HBK apart, calling him a "Waste of Human Flesh"
Keep in kind this was all BEFORE the Montreal Screwjob.

And according to Shawn himself, he deserved everything Bret ever said about him off the script... or didn't you watch the 2nd part of Shawn's retirment speach. And, you can call yourself "The best there is, was, and ever will be!" if you can back it up, and Bret Hart always did. All you have to do is look at his record as a worker in the indastry, his dedication to tradition, and the fact that in over 20 years he has never caused an injury that prevented anybody from being able to work their next booking. Shawn can't say that, nor can probably 90% of the locker room (past and present) I would bet.

So as the hip folk would say "Your game is weak and your shit is wack". So shut up and go away.

 

[Banshee]

Pro Wrestling

Is acting, not sports

 

[SlaverTickler]

Is acting, not sports

I'd like to see Bruce Willis do this...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxa_1GM-Zxc?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxa_1GM-Zxc?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

...or that punk from Twilight do this (00:09:45)...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qbVvVr8uaHk?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qbVvVr8uaHk?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Lets see any of them do this...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G-kYJ6foSN8?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G-kYJ6foSN8?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Thats right, you just got owned, don't feel bad tho, you aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

Bonus, the entire AMW/Triple X match...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DTN89mc-iTI?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DTN89mc-iTI?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

 

[BigJim]

Is acting, not sports

There is a dramatic side to it, but it is THE MOST physically arduous activity of any comparable sport and contains a genuine egde of physical competitivess, in that the best physical workers get to hold the titles eventually, make the most money and fly first class.

Yeah, it's scripted. But that doesn't stop it having a sports side to it as well.

 

[BigJim]

as I recall the rigging he tested with was different from the one they ended up using at the event. In the end Vince decided that the few extra minuets it would take to remove the safty back ups was worth risking Owen's life. The WWE went out of their way to find a company that would to the wire work with out the back wiring, and Hart died because of their greed.

If that is an established truth, then it's a fucking disgrace that Vince was never charged with industrial manslaughter, or whatever the American quivalent of it is.