For those who support piracy of clips...please read

[The Last Laugh]

Unless they have so many producers they simply don't care.

Entirely possible, but obviously I'm not aware of their situation, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Questions: Is this problem JUST in the tickling world, or are there other fetishes being hit?

I think it goes without saying that all types of clips are vulnerable to being pirated. There are illegal sites sharing clips covering all sorts of fetish/porn interests. However, it seems the tickling world is hit especially hard because of one specific pirate who's been unusually active with his illegal activities. If he could be stopped for good it wouldn't put an end to piracy by any means, but it would be a major relief for many producers.

One argument against worrying about pirating, is that the regular customers will remain regular customers, and those who pirate and get clips would never have paid for them in the first place, so the loss is insignificant.

A common argument, especially among pirates, but it's total BS. It's true that some people who get their hands on illegal clips would never bother to buy any. But many others would definitely buy some if they couldn't get them for free, including a lot of people who benefit from the work of active pirates (like those people who apparently worship the guy we've been talking about). I'm betting a lot of "regular customers" would stop being customers if they found a convenient source of free clips. Or at least they wouldn't buy as many.

Also, even though a person may not have bought clips from Producer A, he might have bought some from Producer B, which he prefers. But since he's already got a bunch of full-length clips belonging to Producer A he might not feel the need to spend money on Producer B's clips. I mean, a guy might have a preference for a certain brand, but if he can get another brand he doesn't like quite as much, but for free, he might be satisfied because at least he doesn't have to pay for it. So even though Producer A doesn't actually lose any sales in this case, it's possible that other producers do. So the market as a whole is affected. Not good at all.

In any case, just because someone isn't interested in actually buying a product it doesn't give him the right to get it for free. Someone worked hard and spent a fair amount of money to make the product, so why should people get it for nothing? It's the principle of the thing.

Are overall sales severely dropping to the point where you HAVE to shut down, because you can't afford models, studios, etc.?

Personally, if I were hit by chargeback as heavily as Turtleboy has been in recent times, yes, I might very well consider closing shop for good. I don't make that much selling my clips, definitely not as much as I used to. I'm fortunate enough that my work doesn't get pirated too badly (as far as I can tell), but it does worry me very much.

 

[Tickle Abuse]

I have chatted with a few producers about this, everyone knows I am getting ripped off the most by far. I have done whatever I could and I have shut down this asswipe's sites several times. Although this time will be more difficult, it is just a matter of time.

I believe he is a failed tickling producer and I have some evidence to support this. With as much effort as it takes to do what he does it is pretty ridiculous that he is doing something that will gain him nothing in the end. He likes to act like the friggin Robin Hood of tickling fetish videos but what he is really doing is trying to compensate for his failure.

I used to fume at the chargebacks from c4s and my membership site, but when I thought about it, I realized the chargebacks are sales that were never going to be made legitimately anyway. This guy and people like him are never going to buy anything anyway. Sure it is a kick in the groin when you get that huge chargeback, but that money isnt coming out of your pocket. What pisses us off is that we see this big sale and now its gone, now today isnt a good sales day or this week or whatever. Your end net is still zero, not a negative. Of course the guy has the videos and we are out the sales commission, but no matter what business you are in theft is a problem.

I am in no way trying to rationalize what this fucker is doing nor am I going to stop pursuing him. Eventually his newest site will be taken down. I just dont want to hear producers cry about how this guy is putting them out of business, then he wins. Those people arent buying your clips anyway, never have and never will. If your store makes 1000/month on average, then this guy hits your store with a stolen cc and now you think you are having a good month and monthly sales are up to 1200 but then you get hit with a 200 chargeback, what have you really loss? Your net is still 1000. Of course it pisses you off that someone has your videos for free but that is the nature of business. No matter what you are selling, some people are going to try to get what you are selling without paying for it and succeed. If you cant accept that, dont be in business.

If your sales are down, its the economy or the fact that there are too many tickling producers, or maybe your content just isnt up to snuff. When my sales are down I blame myself, I push myself to fix the damn problem. This guy represents a big problem, but its a small part of the problem. There are thousands upon thousands of people sharing our content every single day on a much smaller scale which adds up to a much bigger problem.

If people want to browse this guys virus infested site, what can you do. What producers can do is join together , pool some money, and maybe we could hire the right person to take him down sooner. But realistically, the cost would affect your bottom line more than file sharing and results arent guaranteed. I am open to any suggestions from any producer and willing to take charge of this unless someone else has a better idea.

 

[The Last Laugh]

I just dont want to hear producers cry about how this guy is putting them out of business, then he wins. Those people arent buying your clips anyway, never have and never will.

I'm sorry, but I don't entirely agree with this. While it's true a pirate like the jackass we're talking about might never buy any clips, what about all the sycophants that see him as some kind of tickling messiah? Some of them might actually buy clips from the producers, but why would they when they can get them for free on that illegal site? Those are the sales that are lost. It might not be all that damaging for most producers (though clearly there are exceptions that suffer greatly from it), but I still think it's a significant problem.

May I ask, if you feel no sales are lost and it doesn't have any significant effect on a business' viability, why do you work so hard on taking this guy down? If what he does is so harmless, why not just let him be?

 

[Comfort Eagle]

I'm sorry, but I don't entirely agree with this. While it's true a pirate like the jackass we're talking about might never buy any clips, what about all the sycophants that see him as some kind of tickling messiah?

To be fair, I've always kind of figured those aren't actually "fans" so much as his own sockpuppet accounts...

 

[tmac]

Count me in as a producer who would like to see this "tickling messiah" go down. If nothing else, because his followers see him as this person buying clips with his own money . They think the producers are getting paid regardless. Piracy will always be out there, but I believe there is a balance in fighting it where you can. Turtleboy, thanks for the great post because I and others can relate to it. I've had my share of thoughts to shut down Laughter is Beautiful myself because the problem is getting worse.

Some people have mentioned PayPal. I didn't think paypal would be associated with fetish material. I would love to use PayPal on my site, but am unsure of how the customer would receive their download once they paid.

My thanks to those who do support us with legit purchases!

laughterisbeautiful.us

 

[Jagermeistered]

Wait! Does C4S, really debits your accounts for "losses"(chargebacks)?

I ask this because; I believe all buyers are asked to give the CV2(three-digit number on the back of the credit/debit card). If so, C4S is not liable for chargebacks(as far as Visa, is concerned(and, I believe MasterCard)).

If you do a credit/debit transaction - on the Internet, and the three-digit number(on the back of your card, is validated). It is considered a card-present transaction. Basically, the issuer is on the hook(for chargebacks), and not the acquirer(i.e. Clips4sale and their bank). It has been a few years since I was in the electronic banking department. But, that is the general rule...

 

[Jagermeistered]

When I go to work tomorrow...

I will confirm with the bank-card department. If I am correct, may the producers file a class action lawsuit against C4S, for fraud...

 

[The Last Laugh]

Some people have mentioned PayPal. I didn't think paypal would be associated with fetish material.

My personal experience with PayPal is this: several years ago I used PayPal to sell physical videos. One day they shut me down without any warning and froze my money for 6 months because, supposedly, the content of my store was judged inappropriate. So even if it were possible to sell clips through PayPal I would definitely not recommend doing so.

 

[Tickle Abuse]

Count me in as a producer who would like to see this "tickling messiah" go down. If nothing else, because his followers see him as this person buying clips with his own money . They think the producers are getting paid regardless. Piracy will always be out there, but I believe there is a balance in fighting it where you can. Turtleboy, thanks for the great post because I and others can relate to it. I've had my share of thoughts to shut down Laughter is Beautiful myself because the problem is getting worse.

Some people have mentioned PayPal. I didn't think paypal would be associated with fetish material. I would love to use PayPal on my site, but am unsure of how the customer would receive their download once they paid.

My thanks to those who do support us with legit purchases!

laughterisbeautiful.us

You cant use paypal. Even if they approve you, at any time they can terminate your account. Happened to me with no warning after three years. It only takes one person to complain/report

 

[alex]

I notice that this thread is entirely a conversation among producers. I'm a consumer, not a producer, and I'd like to address my fellow viewers.

I understand the temptation to watch clips on a free site that's pirated them. It isn't so much that I want something for nothing (though I like that as much as the next guy). It's that it lets me watch a lot more clips than I'd ever be able to buy.

But we really shouldn't be doing it. If not out of fairness then out of gratitude: tickling clips give me more pleasure than I ever could repay, and I figure buying them on C4S or as a subscriber is the least I can do in return. And if that's not reason enough, you can see on this thread that we risk killing at least some of the geese that lay our golden eggs. If they stop making clips, I will not be happy, and I doubt that you will be either.

So just say no to piracy. So endeth my sermon.

 

[Jagermeistered]

I notice that this thread is entirely a conversation among producers. I'm a consumer, not a producer, and I'd like to address my fellow viewers.

I understand the temptation to watch clips on a free site that's pirated them. It isn't so much that I want something for nothing (though I like that as much as the next guy). It's that it lets me watch a lot more clips than I'd ever be able to buy.

But we really shouldn't be doing it. If not out of fairness then out of gratitude: tickling clips give me more pleasure than I ever could repay, and I figure buying them on C4S or as a subscriber is the least I can do in return. And if that's not reason enough, you can see on this thread that we risk killing at least some of the geese that lay our golden eggs. If they stop making clips, I will not be happy, and I doubt that you will be either.

So just say no to piracy. So endeth my sermon.

I am not a producer(but, a consumer, as well)...

Who happens to work in this field(a background in electronic banking). My "raised" eyebrow, is not at the consumer or producer, but the distributor(Clips4Sale). This seems quite fishy; from what the C4S producers have stated thus far.

 

[Phineas]

Questions: Is this problem JUST in the tickling world, or are there other fetishes being hit? I know Turtleboy said his other stores weren't being hit, but I wonder why just tickling?

I regularly conversate with a foot fetish model on Twitter. She rants about having to get sites that deal in pirated clips to take down her material all the time. It's not just us.

 

[tsukimizu]

I think it's time for someone like myself to post, since I'm in a different world then everyone here. I myself am not a fan of clips, in anyway, shape or form just because of personal preference. So my opinion may be a bit less biased then the other ones posted.

Let me open my statement with something I've learned working in an industry that see's multiple insistence of piracy and copyright complaints a day, the people who are pirating your clips would probably never spend money on them, and (At least in our business's case) can possibly see an increase of sales, but the industry I work in is a different beast, so there's not too much compression between the two. Now for the problem of the chargebacks, I can see that as harmful. We've luckily never had to experience that, and I'm very thankful for it, but for you guys I feel very bad for you. A good majority of you are probably making your livelihood off of this business, and for someone to come in and scam you out x Dollars is never justifiable, but in the same sense, if you guys thought this would never happen, you're fooling yourself. This is the internet, if there's ever one thing that closely follows media on the internet, it's pirates that see a profit coming from your product, or a rebel that wants to fight the system and share all of your hard earned money with everyone in the world.

Now, from what it sounds like there should be a few options here.
1) Contact the host of the site in question, inform them that they're client is distributing copyrighted materiel over the internet. Watch how fast the host will drop them (Unless the host is devoted to piracy, then you're going to have some work ahead of you)
2) Contact the company that publishes the ads on the site. Most of the time pirates are also working to string a profit out of your stolen goods, and most ad companies will drop a client in a heartbeat when they're informed of a piracy problem on the site.
3) Contact C4S and inform them of what's happening, include a link to the sight in question and see if there's anything that the two of you can do. I'm sure C4S must have a giant legal team to handle issues like this.

I'm not sure if this was brought up or not, but my lovely other half mentioned to me that a lot of sites like Youtube are hosting videos, which I assume are downloaded from the site that you guys were mentioning above, wouldn't it be wise to start slapping them with DCMA complaints? (I know Youtube pulls videos first, asks questions later) I'm not sure if this is at all related to what's being mentioned above, but I bet it's also something you all might want to look into...And sense I lost my train of thought, guess this post will stay semi-incomplete. Pardon any typos you see above, I'm very anal about them, but am far to tired to fix them =(

 

[turtleboy]

Thanks everyone for their comments on this. For some reason, I didn't expect it to generate that much debate but I'm pleased that it has!

My intention was not to alarm people by saying that we are all going to shut down, so apologies if I gave that impression. I myself, am not intending to switch to direct sales with paypal etc at this stage as aside from the immediate financial loss it would just prove too time consuming to administer and time is something I simply do not have enough of these days! In a sense, that is what sparked my initial post on this - the fact that I put so much time and effort into producing and releasing clips, and that I have to work such long hours on this (I have two other part-time jobs) just to make it work out. When I've been forgoing my spare time (and sleep) to finish off clips in time, produce long previews etc only to find everything I have produced in recent times turn up on one person's site it really pisses me off. When my daily sales then get hit by one chargeback and then another, and so on, it makes me question why I am still doing this. Is it worth continuing?

To a large extent I agree with Tommy's comments - we don't know if this is hitting our sales that hard, and a decline in sales may simply be due to the product not being up to scratch or a myriad of other reasons. The economic downturn and the increase in numbers of studios certainly play a major part. That said, as Francois, Alex etc pointed out, with the scale of this guy's operation there is little incentive for certain people to even consider buying clips from anyone, where they may have been customers in the past. I have seen the number of seeders on some of the torrents and I have some other stats on the users of that site - the numbers are enormous.

I fully accept that piracy is an aspect of internet sales that we all have to be prepared to deal with. I have downloaded music, films etc in the past and I certainly do not claim to have the moral high ground over anyone who downloads illegally. Previously, I have actually viewed small-scale piracy as a form of advertising - if someone stumbles across one of your clips and likes it, then they may go and buy a whole load more from you. The issue here is with the incredibly aggressive way it is being done by this particular individual, with the fradulent charge-backs which disrupt sales and destroy morale, and with the frankly greedy people who hero-worship this individual, simply to get more and more of what they want for free.

My intention in starting this post was to wake people up to the methods behind this person's activities, by showing where the money comes from and to shame some of the syncophants on his site to think twice about what they are encouraging him to do. He doesn't go to work and then spend his hard earned money buying clips to share with his poor followers as he would have them believe (he would have to have thousands and thousands of dollars of disposable income if he did!) He spends his time obtaining innocent people's credit card information to clean out studios and websites and post all of their content. He does this simply because he has an ego that he needs to feed and he knows that people will thank him and tell him he's wonderful. He also gets a kick out of the belief that he is 'notorious' and untouchable. In reality, he is simply a software developer with a warped sense of right and wrong, little or no legitimate work to occupy his time and no girlfriend to rein him in.

 

[P[a]pi]

I don't know if this is a viable option for producers, but this is my favorite way to buy tickling footage: http://ticklingparadise.com/ppv.htm I have no I idea how ticklingparadise gets paid through these two streaming sites, but I like buying minutes and using them how I like. If more tickling producers were on these sites then I'd definately use my minutes to view their content. And of course, nothing is downloaded, so hopefully that would help you guys.

 

[sclubtickle]

I don't know if this is a viable option for producers, but this is my favorite way to buy tickling footage: http://ticklingparadise.com/ppv.htm I have no I idea how ticklingparadise gets paid through these two streaming sites, but I like buying minutes and using them how I like. If more tickling producers were on these sites then I'd definately use my minutes to view their content. And of course, nothing is downloaded, so hopefully that would help you guys.

I find ppv streaming absolutely rubbish. The picture quality isn't great and unless you have a great connection you're likely to get drops outs and buffering. I'll pass if you don't mind.

 

[mabus]

I have chatted with a few producers about this, everyone knows I am getting ripped off the most by far. I have done whatever I could and I have shut down this asswipe's sites several times. Although this time will be more difficult, it is just a matter of time.

I believe he is a failed tickling producer and I have some evidence to support this. With as much effort as it takes to do what he does it is pretty ridiculous that he is doing something that will gain him nothing in the end. He likes to act like the friggin Robin Hood of tickling fetish videos but what he is really doing is trying to compensate for his failure.

Boy, you have so piqued my curiosity with this one! I was starting to count who were the failed producers - have they never produced anything, or had an old clip store and the failed/called it quits?
(I'm sure you won't tell, but damn I'm curious...just so if their old store is still open, as many producers sometimes leave stores open after they stop making clips, that no one would ever, ever pay for his stuff in fairness to you guys who are still working hard, and because he's giving you all this hell....)

I used to fume at the chargebacks from c4s and my membership site, but when I thought about it, I realized the chargebacks are sales that were never going to be made legitimately anyway. This guy and people like him are never going to buy anything anyway. Sure it is a kick in the groin when you get that huge chargeback, but that money isnt coming out of your pocket. What pisses us off is that we see this big sale and now its gone, now today isnt a good sales day or this week or whatever. Your end net is still zero, not a negative. Of course the guy has the videos and we are out the sales commission, but no matter what business you are in theft is a problem.

I am in no way trying to rationalize what this fucker is doing nor am I going to stop pursuing him. Eventually his newest site will be taken down. I just dont want to hear producers cry about how this guy is putting them out of business, then he wins. Those people arent buying your clips anyway, never have and never will. If your store makes 1000/month on average, then this guy hits your store with a stolen cc and now you think you are having a good month and monthly sales are up to 1200 but then you get hit with a 200 chargeback, what have you really loss? Your net is still 1000. Of course it pisses you off that someone has your videos for free but that is the nature of business. No matter what you are selling, some people are going to try to get what you are selling without paying for it and succeed. If you cant accept that, dont be in business.

If your sales are down, its the economy or the fact that there are too many tickling producers, or maybe your content just isnt up to snuff. When my sales are down I blame myself, I push myself to fix the damn problem. This guy represents a big problem, but its a small part of the problem. There are thousands upon thousands of people sharing our content every single day on a much smaller scale which adds up to a much bigger problem.

If people want to browse this guys virus infested site, what can you do. What producers can do is join together , pool some money, and maybe we could hire the right person to take him down sooner. But realistically, the cost would affect your bottom line more than file sharing and results arent guaranteed. I am open to any suggestions from any producer and willing to take charge of this unless someone else has a better idea.

Everything you said here I have said and agree with you 100%, and was curious if business was falling BECAUSE of this, or because of what YOU said, which I agree with, about some producers simply needing to change a few things up, maybe look at themselves and see if they can improve, plus the down economy, etc. And I don't want to seem too critical of the producers, because often my "criticism" is me seeing great stuff and knowing it can be a little bit or much better. Better lighting and better resolution and rendering can make an okay clip on technical aspects a classic and best seller.

I still hope the guy gets stopped because of FAIRNESS. You guys are producing something. He's not, or is no longer.

It takes many things to make clips, and one is how you treat/interact with models, obviously. And how much you get out there, think up new ideas, etc. A "simple" clip starts to get complicated once you factor studio renting, getting tapes and camera ready, making sure the model has the right directions, then directing her, treating her with respect, etc. I'm sure many producers, (as well as regular movie makers) have driven away models/actresses with crappy behavior. So add this to one more thing producers have to be able to accomplish to get you great tickling clips.

 

[Phineas]

A good majority of you are probably making your livelihood off of this business, and for someone to come in and scam you out x Dollars is never justifiable, but in the same sense, if you guys thought this would never happen, you're fooling yourself.

This is actually part of the problem; perception of just how much money producers make. I'm pretty sure that no one in our community is doing this as their full-time job; they have a 9-to-5 like the rest of us and make some extra scratch filming videos on the side. If I'm wrong, well... maybe it's time for a change of careers. hehe.

 

[TicklingTips]

Thankyou for bringing this to our attention in such a clear, detailed manner. There's probably nothing we can do about it as ordinary TMF users, but hopefully this stops people being so grateful for pirated clips.

 

[tkmstr]

I don't understand the arguement of those that say producers are not losing money by some dirtbag posting their content for free? Sure, the person doing this may not have spent any money on their clips if not for the purpose of posting them for all to see but what about those that are going to his site and viewing these clips for free? Can you really say that none of those people would have paid for one or two clips? The chargebacks may not be the issue but the loss of potential sales is a huge problem for producers.

I'd hate to see turtleboy and producers like him have to go the way of Stryker and start selling clips themselves at a much higher rate. I still buy clips from Stryker but at 2 to 3 times more per clip, I just can't afford to do it as often as I would like.

I'm not sure what the answer to this problem is but Sclub is right about streaming ppv, the video is poor quality for the most part and I like owning the clips and being able to go back and watch them later. Whoever is stealing these clips seems to be next to impossible to shut down so per haps the answer is to go after those viewing his site if that is at all possible. I never agreed with that tactic before but let's be honest, the people going to his site know that they are illegally viewing pirated content. I don't believe in the, "well it's the internet and everyone is doing it" arguement. If it is a choice between me having to pay $40 for a UK Tickling clip or some freeloader facing legal action, I'm all for going after the freeloader.

 

[goro911]

Rachel Steele, WifeysWorld, and TheBondageChannel are doing something to keep their content as safe-as-can-be from pirate websites- I know that Rachel Steele/her people, amongst other things, directly contact individual forum uploaders with a stern threat of legal action if the content isn't immediately removed, which has seemed to work, as the same individuals are the ones uploading clips to 15 different BB forum sites.

From what I understand the main site in question now operates via Torrent files, which is a problem that even major media vendors like Nintendo and, uh, Hollywood, haven't been able to solve. Anonymous folks send this guy stuff, so even solving the credit card concerns on C4S wouldn't solve much in the long run.

It has to be the most frustrating thing for producers that some faceless random fucko gets lionized as some fetish robin hood for giving away the creative investment producers work so hard to get out there. I wish things were different.

 

[tttony]

This is what you get by selling sexual/porn fetish related clips. You are not selling Disney, Harry Potter or music clips. You are selling clips often watched by minors, even 13 yo, who get their minds blowns off and feed and amplify their tickling fetish (at all ages anyway). I think it's ridiculous to complain they are steeling your clips, you should shut up and be happy with the large amount of money you made and are still making by selling sexual/porn fetish related clips. A normal producer would contact the police and have lawyers resolve the matter, you can't because you are selling illegal/porn material so you can only come here to complain about it. I mean, if you chose this commecial acvitity you should know this can happen and there's no much you can do about it. Unfortunately illegal activities are of course not protected by the law.

 

[sclubtickle]

This is what you get by selling sexual/porn fetish related clips. You are not selling Disney, Harry Potter or music clips. You are selling clips often watched by minors, even 13 yo, who get their minds blowns off and feed and amplify their tickling fetish (at all ages anyway). I think it's ridiculous to complain they are steeling your clips, you should shut up and be happy with the large amount of money you made and are still making by selling sexual/porn fetish related clips. A normal producer would contact the police and have lawyers resolve the matter, you can't because you are selling illegal/porn material so you can only come here to complain about it. I mean, if you chose this commecial acvitity you should know this can happen and there's no much you can do about it. Unfortunately illegal activities are of course not protected by the law.

I was going to reply saying how ridiculous this post was but I don't think I need to.

Still, it is nice to see that we live in a society where everybody is entitled to an opinion.

 

[tttony]

I was going to reply saying how ridiculous this post was but I don't think I need to.

Still, it is nice to see that we live in a society where everybody is entitled to an opinion.

Well, if you are in denial of the true things stated in my post I can understand your post.

 

[TMF Jeff]

If you two want to continue to snipe at each other, take it to PM.