aun_existe_amor
3rd Level Red Feather
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I'd rather take any amount of pain than be tied and tickled.
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Tickling vs Pain
- Thread starter drew70
- Start date
Let's back this up a bit.....
I wasn't dismissing your point, but the example was extreme even via your admission.
Now to the "consent" issue:
When I raised the issue of two consenting adults, I left something out. I actually addressed the concept of two sane consenting adults. A person who is mentally disturbed can give consent to disturbing things. A person who wants to be killed and eaten is seriously mentally disturbed.
There are extremists in every walk of life, tickling and BDSM folks as well. You're going to have a group of people taking things into extremes and no one can stop them from hurting or even killing themselves. I am NOT including them in the "consenting adults" category that I'm talking about.
U.N.Owen said:
I wasn't dismissing your point, but the example was extreme even via your admission.
Now to the "consent" issue:
When I raised the issue of two consenting adults, I left something out. I actually addressed the concept of two sane consenting adults. A person who is mentally disturbed can give consent to disturbing things. A person who wants to be killed and eaten is seriously mentally disturbed.
There are extremists in every walk of life, tickling and BDSM folks as well. You're going to have a group of people taking things into extremes and no one can stop them from hurting or even killing themselves. I am NOT including them in the "consenting adults" category that I'm talking about.
U.N.Owen said:
Sure it's a tricky question and really one of the main issues in this thread. I can define what is sane and it would be completely different from yours or anyone elses. But sometimes we'll find a level of insanity that almost everyone agrees on because it's so incredibly over the top.
But no, I'm not in the mental health profession so I'm not going to do that today. Besides, I have over 20 years dealing with someone who is truly mentally challenged with definitions in every medical manual printed today. I'll leave the defining to the professionals. But I do know what makes "common'" sense to me-I just rule the rest out and not even bring it into my discussion.
Arguing right past each other. Again.
This is a really big thread. You guys have cost me an afternoon, be proud of it. I am going to try to straighten out and simplify some arguments that are going in circles. Please let me know if I misrepresent your positions.
1. [size=+1]drew70 vs. Redmage[/size]
Drew's point: sadists are evil. Because there are masochists, it may be OK to hurt them in some circumstances (given consent, sanity, etc.). However, to want to hurt them, to get off on hurting them, to seek out masochists to hurt, is evil.
Redmage's counterpoint: sadists are useful. If not for sadists, masochists would not get what they want (or would have to get their kicks from people who have no interest in it whatsoever).
My point: Redmage, that is not a valid counterargument. Sadists can be useful and evil at the same time.
2. [size=+1]susannah355 vs. Redmage[/size]
Susannah's point: "masochists" are brainwashed. Somebody or something has convinced them that pain is good for them, or that hurting them is honorable and right, when in fact it is not. Even if it appears that they consent, it is only an illusion, because their consent is grossly misinformed.
Redmage's counterpoint: masochists genuinely like pain. They do what they do (and let others do to them) because they want it, not because somebody tells them they should want it.
My point: this isn't so simple (though I tend to side with Redmage). Brainwashing, indoctrination, peer pressure, propaganda -- these are all very subjective. One man's education is another man's child abuse. (Example: In Soviet Russia, children in kindergartens and schools were made to sing songs and recite poems exalting Lenin. In USA, children are made to swear the Oath of Allegiance -- daily, I am told. Is this not brainwashing?)
We all are, among other things, the sum of our experiences. Yes, people who (think that they) enjoy pain have come to be that way because of something they have lived through.
Some of these people do need help: those that have been told over and over again that being beaten is normal and right; others that grew up in situations where some kind of violence was order of the day.
But there are yet others, who have been encouraged to experiment with pain, and indulge in it if they like it. Others, who, without any prior influence, accidentally touched a medium-voltage live wire, and thought, "Ooh, that was kinda neat!" Are these people also brainwashed? Or do you believe such people do not exist?
Susanna, I assume you like tickling. How did you come to like it, and know that you like it? Is it not conceivable that someone else might come to like pain in a similar way?
Another point: perhaps it is you who is brainwashed. You grew up in an abusive family, and hated it, understandably. Now you believe that all beating is wrong. Are you not biased because of your experience?
What your mother told you about the beatings was wrong. But she probably also told you to wash your hands after going to the bathroom -- that was right. How does one tell which formative experiences are valid, and which are not?
Discuss.
3. [size=+1]susannah355 vs. Mimi[/size]
Susanna's point: Pain and tickling are fundamentally different in that one is abusive, and the other is not.
Mimi's counterpoint: No, because tickling can be abuse too.
My point: Mimi is right, tickling can be a form of abuse, and here is proof: a link to a discussion where several survivors of abuse by tickling describe their experiences, and their aftermath. Some of them have nightmares to this day.
Warning: Although the link below refers to a discussion thread, it is used here as a source of information only, not an interactive medium. DO NOT POST THERE. Some yahoo from TMF with no respect for the rules of their forum already did, and pissed them right off. If you have any interest in not compounding their bad impression of us, please, just read it and leave it alone.
http://www.boomerwomenspeak.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000069
This is a really big thread. You guys have cost me an afternoon, be proud of it. I am going to try to straighten out and simplify some arguments that are going in circles. Please let me know if I misrepresent your positions.
1. [size=+1]drew70 vs. Redmage[/size]
Drew's point: sadists are evil. Because there are masochists, it may be OK to hurt them in some circumstances (given consent, sanity, etc.). However, to want to hurt them, to get off on hurting them, to seek out masochists to hurt, is evil.
Redmage's counterpoint: sadists are useful. If not for sadists, masochists would not get what they want (or would have to get their kicks from people who have no interest in it whatsoever).
My point: Redmage, that is not a valid counterargument. Sadists can be useful and evil at the same time.
2. [size=+1]susannah355 vs. Redmage[/size]
Susannah's point: "masochists" are brainwashed. Somebody or something has convinced them that pain is good for them, or that hurting them is honorable and right, when in fact it is not. Even if it appears that they consent, it is only an illusion, because their consent is grossly misinformed.
Redmage's counterpoint: masochists genuinely like pain. They do what they do (and let others do to them) because they want it, not because somebody tells them they should want it.
My point: this isn't so simple (though I tend to side with Redmage). Brainwashing, indoctrination, peer pressure, propaganda -- these are all very subjective. One man's education is another man's child abuse. (Example: In Soviet Russia, children in kindergartens and schools were made to sing songs and recite poems exalting Lenin. In USA, children are made to swear the Oath of Allegiance -- daily, I am told. Is this not brainwashing?)
We all are, among other things, the sum of our experiences. Yes, people who (think that they) enjoy pain have come to be that way because of something they have lived through.
Some of these people do need help: those that have been told over and over again that being beaten is normal and right; others that grew up in situations where some kind of violence was order of the day.
But there are yet others, who have been encouraged to experiment with pain, and indulge in it if they like it. Others, who, without any prior influence, accidentally touched a medium-voltage live wire, and thought, "Ooh, that was kinda neat!" Are these people also brainwashed? Or do you believe such people do not exist?
Susanna, I assume you like tickling. How did you come to like it, and know that you like it? Is it not conceivable that someone else might come to like pain in a similar way?
Another point: perhaps it is you who is brainwashed. You grew up in an abusive family, and hated it, understandably. Now you believe that all beating is wrong. Are you not biased because of your experience?
What your mother told you about the beatings was wrong. But she probably also told you to wash your hands after going to the bathroom -- that was right. How does one tell which formative experiences are valid, and which are not?
Discuss.
3. [size=+1]susannah355 vs. Mimi[/size]
Susanna's point: Pain and tickling are fundamentally different in that one is abusive, and the other is not.
Mimi's counterpoint: No, because tickling can be abuse too.
My point: Mimi is right, tickling can be a form of abuse, and here is proof: a link to a discussion where several survivors of abuse by tickling describe their experiences, and their aftermath. Some of them have nightmares to this day.
Warning: Although the link below refers to a discussion thread, it is used here as a source of information only, not an interactive medium. DO NOT POST THERE. Some yahoo from TMF with no respect for the rules of their forum already did, and pissed them right off. If you have any interest in not compounding their bad impression of us, please, just read it and leave it alone.
http://www.boomerwomenspeak.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000069
In other words, What Redmage does is wrong, because I feel it is.Johnny Ticklish said:
Thanks you, I think the above hits the nail right on the head about the root of what the opponents of sadism are saying. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. However, assuming I understood correctly, that branch of the discussion cannot proceed beyond this point.
Your personal sense is not open to dispute -- it simply is. However, I have a personal sense too (also not open to dispute), and it says there is nothing wrong with what Redmage does. You will probably call me amoral for that, but that is something we can dispute:
Am I universally amoral, or amoral relative to you? If universally, then why is your sense correct, and mine incorrect?
What we are taught as children, is taught at the level a child can understand. Pleasure, pain, injury, lunch money -- those are real, physical, simple things that a child can understand. So children are taught in those terms: pain - bad, weak kid - not a punching bag, adult - always right. "consensual" is a long word that represents an abstract concept -- rather difficult for an average child of five to understand and apply correctly. Besides, children aren't in position to give responsible, informed consent anyway, so for the first 18 years of their life they couldn't apply it, even if they understood it.drew70 said:
When we grow up, things get more complicated.
Maybe the TV is wrong -- it wouldn't be the first time. Hollywood does present a very simple, happy picture of the world, most of the time: everybody is beautiful, people are good or bad (and it is always easy to tell who is who), the hero always gets the girl, and the girl always gets her prince charming.
ShadowTklr
3rd Level Orange Feather
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- Dec 12, 2002
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- 2,619
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Holy shit! This thread is still going on?
This is why mankind will never be the masters of the universe. We can't even live and let live. Saints preserve us all! ROFL!
This is why mankind will never be the masters of the universe. We can't even live and let live. Saints preserve us all! ROFL!
Oy. I was going to let this thread lie, but since you asked me directly...starfires said:
The notion that sadists are "useful" is true in a sense. But my point was a bit different.
Most masochists (as Aquafeline pointed out a few messages back) want to play with someone who enjoys giving what they enjoy receiving. What masochists do, essentially, is play with sadists. Therefore if what masochists do is OK, what sadists do must be OK as well, because we're not just "useful" - we're NECESSARY to that dynamic.
That was only a small part of my argument, but it's an important part. The bulk of it was made up of points that you've already made in your posts, plus direct evidence to show that sadism is not "evil," such as pointing out the care SM players take to ensure safety and consent. People who are in it only for their own kicks, with no regard for their partner's wellbeing, don't do things like that.
And at this point that's really about all I can or should add to this thread. Else we really will be going in circles.
ticklerokla
TMF Regular
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- Feb 29, 2004
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I dont 'DO' pain... 
tickling is more effective!
tickling is more effective!
sarahgetswet
TMF Novice
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- Mar 1, 2006
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Tickling and spanking
I dont know which i enjoy doing more, i like being tickled more than being spanked though!
I dont know which i enjoy doing more, i like being tickled more than being spanked though!
BellaRisa
4th Level Blue Feather
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- Aug 9, 2001
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sarahgetswet said:I dont know which i enjoy doing more, i like being tickled more than being spanked though!
Tickling and spanking go together like peanut butter and jelly, more and more tk-philes are finding this out. The truly evil 'ler can get you to *ask* to be spanked instead, I have a bit of experience with this...
Bella
