What About A Man's Choice?

[OBleedingMe]

To kis123:
If both parties were forced to take responsibility for their actions, I'd be right up there with you, kis. But unfortunately, that is not the way of the world at the moment.
Either BOTH gender take responsibility for their actions or give both a CHOICE, but to allow one gender to have a choice in the matter and render the other powerless is a double standard. Either both have a choice, or neither have choice.
All or nothing, in a sense.

 

[kis123]

And here's something else.....

I address this to the women on the forum and anywhere else this may apply. We as women need to become more selective who we have sex with. We need to take the time to get into his head prior to getting into his bed. Then, we could nip a lot of this mess in the bud. No woman I know is so hot and horny that she can't wait to get to know a man a little better before she jumps into bed with him.

I used to own a female cat that would come into heat and sneak outside. She'd select from several different mating candidates, and a little courting ritual would begin. After the brief courtship, they would commit the act. And animals have sex for procreation only, not gratification. They have enough sense to pick and choose their mate before just doing it! We're supposed to be more intelligent and evolved than the dogs and cats of the world, aren't we?

If women become more selective and use their heads instead of other parts of the anatomy and justify it as love (I've been there and I know what I'm talkin' about, so don't bother denying it to me!)they could avoid dealing with men of unhealthy mindsets. When you realize that the man is an unhealthy choice for you, run, do not walk away! Contrary to popular belief, WE CANNOT CHANGE HIM! HE HAS TO BE WILLING TO CHANGE HIMSELF! IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO CHANGE A MAN! DON'T DELUDE YOURSELF INTO THINKING OTHERWISE! Also the getting pregnant to keep a man went out generations ago, so don't bother please. This way when a pregnancy comes along, she may have a better chance of being with a man whose going to do the right thing.

As I see it, there are two types of men in this world. Nothing is black and white so there is room for combinations:

1-the basic man whose over 18 and cannot be legally called a child anymore, but is as immature as a two year old. Everything has to be his way on his terms. When he's having fun, everything's great. When he gets bored or has to do something requiring responisibility, he and his excuses run away to the next victim. And I know men in their 30s 40s and 50s that behave this way as well.

2-the Real man. He goes to work everyday and takes care of his business. He doesn't expect some woman to come along and clean up his mess of a life. He's not perferct but works on improving himself regularly and is as responsible as he can be. He's in it for the long haul.

To have sex or not to have sex is not the only issue, neither is it whether or not to have a baby. It is when are we as women going to grow up and decide that we respect ourselves more than we have over the years? That to me is most important.

And guys, this is not meant to be a "beat up on men post". There are good men out there as well as some stupid spoiled silly women. I'm only talking to the ladies right now. I believe that my experiences as a woman qualify me somewhat.

 

[kis123]

To kis123:
If both parties were forced to take responsibility for their actions, I'd be right up there with you, kis. But unfortunately, that is not the way of the world at the moment.
Either BOTH gender take responsibility for their actions or give both a CHOICE, but to allow one gender to have a choice in the matter and render the other powerless is a double standard. Either both have a choice, or neither have choice.
All or nothing, in a sense.

At this point OBM, you're splitting hairs. There have been double standards in a man's world for centuries. Who makes the most money for the same work? Men do! Who gets to run the nation in the US? Men do! I could name many other issues that have been carrying a double standard where men get the benefit. This issue is simply not one of them. And when a man cannot control something, this is usually the result. Because generally speaking, a man wants complete control over his environment. That's just his nature. Unfortunately, this will not be the case.

It's been a very interesting thread with many varying points of view. Obviously everyone passionately stands by their beliefs. No matter how long this post goes, it's going to come to the same conclusion, stand by your beliefs folks! We're one of the few nations in the world that allows that.

 

[OBleedingMe]

First of all, you're stereotyping men. That's sexist. You don't see me sitting here stereotyping women.
I, as a man, have no desire to control "your environment." In fact, this thread is about YOU, a female, controlling MY environment. You've patently ignored everything I've said on the matter. EVERYTHING. A Man's Choice has zero affect on the control of your body or your "environment." You're acting like I'm advocating for the abolishition of a Woman's Choice, when in fact I'm advocating for and supporting a woman's choice, the only difference being that I'm advocating for a MAN'S Choice as well!
Splitting hairs? I think not. I'm stating facts.
As far making the same amount of money as men do, then work the same 51 hour work week! Women, on the average, work a 28 hour work week while men, on the average, work a 51 hour work week. Of course females are going to receive less pay on the whole - they don't work as much! No woman gets hired at the Post Office and receives $10.00 an hour while a man recieves $15.00! That sexist crap stopped over thrity years ago.
www.choiceformen.com

 

[kis123]

First of all, you're stereotyping men. That's sexist. You don't see me sitting here stereotyping women.
I, as a man, have no desire to control "your environment." In fact, this thread is about YOU, a female, controlling MY environment. You've patently ignored everything I've said on the matter. EVERYTHING. A Man's Choice has zero affect on the control of your body or your "environment." You're acting like I'm advocating for the abolishition of a Woman's Choice, when in fact I'm advocating for and supporting a woman's choice, the only difference being that I'm advocating for a MAN'S Choice as well!
Splitting hairs? I think not. I'm stating facts.
As far making the same amount of money as men do, then work the same 51 hour work week! Women, on the average, work a 28 hour work week while men, on the average, work a 51 hour work week. Of course females are going to receive less pay on the whole - they don't work as much! No woman gets hired at the Post Office and receives $10.00 an hour while a man recieves $15.00! That sexist crap stopped over thrity years ago.
www.choiceformen.com

OBM, you're screaming again!

I don't know what they're teaching in colleges these days, but they really need to consider what our youth is being taught. Women working the same job under the same set of circumstances as men average 70% of what a man makes. And that's gone up over the years.

As far as the control issues are concerned, take a few psychology classes and find out the psychological makeup of men and women. Then come and tell me that men do not naturally desire to control their environment. As hunters that's what men did in the Stone Age and even in today's age. Just like it is said that women are emotional. That is why we are the nurturers because of our emotional makeup. We can get into the touchy-feely stuff better because that's how we're wired. I have no shame in my emotional femininity, which is why I stopped arguing that point years ago.

You call it sexist. Live a little, and you'll know it's simply the facts. I don't know why you keep trying to force this OBM. Regardless of how angry you are at the facts, they are just facts. I don't like a lot of the things that happen on earth either. I've just gotten to a point that they're not worth arguing about. One day maybe you'll feel the same.

 

[ticklishbbw]

As far making the same amount of money as men do, then work the same 51 hour work week! Women, on the average, work a 28 hour work week while men, on the average, work a 51 hour work week. Of course females are going to receive less pay on the whole - they don't work as much! No woman gets hired at the Post Office and receives $10.00 an hour while a man recieves $15.00! That sexist crap stopped over thrity years ago.
www.choiceformen.com

Hate to break it to you, but you need to step out into the real world. While I agree that women as a whole, average less hours, that's because women make up a larger percentage of the part-time work force, mostly due to being the primary care givers. However, even after that is taken into consideration, the remaining women, still make much less, and work just as many hours as men, but earn far less money. Here's an article to back that up, it even states the hours differential you mention, yet..goes on to state women still make less. You also can't say this is a biased article. It's from a mainstreem publication, not a womens or mens website. http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/20/news/economy/pay_gap/index.htm

 

[ticklishbbw]

Here's another link..

http://money.cnn.com/best/magazine_archive/2001/05/CHECKS.html

An added comment, most of the industries/professions in this article would be salary/exempt jobs. The number of actual hours worked in these positions would have no impact on the salary.

 

[OBleedingMe]

You only make 70% of what a man makes because you, the female gender, don't work as long as the male gender. Again, I will reiterate, no woman walks into a job where they are offered $7.00 an hour while a man is offered $10.00. It just doesn't happen. Lawyers are salvitating for soemthing like that. The company would get their asses sued off.
As far as the psychological makeup of men and women, yes you're absolutely right. Men rely more on logic and reasoning while women rely more on emotions and intuition. Both attributes good in some cases, bad in others. Men and women balance each other out. We compliment one another. Ying and Yang. All that happy stuff.
But that's not my argument.We're talking about CHOICE here, NOT control. Choice for both genders.
As far as you giving up on change, that's fine for you. That's why young people make things change. We have a fire in our bellies.
www.choiceformen.com

 

[ticklishbbw]

You only make 70% of what a man makes because you, the female gender, don't work as long as the male gender. Again, I will reiterate, no woman walks into a job where they are offered $7.00 an hour while a man is offered $10.00. It just doesn't happen.

Wanna bet..happens all the time. Like I said..in the real world! Go back and read the links I posted.

 

[kis123]

Hate to break it to you, but you need to step out into the real world. While I agree that women as a whole, average less hours, that's because women make up a larger percentage of the part-time work force, mostly due to being the primary care givers. However, even after that is taken into consideration, the remaining women, still make much less, and work just as many hours as men, but earn far less money. Here's an article to back that up, it even states the hours differential you mention, yet..goes on to state women still make less. You also can't say this is a biased article. It's from a mainstreem publication, not a womens or mens website. http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/20/news/economy/pay_gap/index.htm

Thank you for the link. Maybe we'll all learn something useful from it.

 

[OBleedingMe]

To ticklishbbw:
I disagree. Let's look at the professions listed, shall we?


Executives and managers
Male $1,014
Female $686
Point: Executives and managers salaries are based on performance and profit. They have a base pay, but they make over 30% of their income from performance/profit bonuses. The more time you have to work, the better your results. Females traditionally have LESS time than males to work - especially in this day and age of single mohterhood.

Management analysts
[Male] $1,340
[Female]$819
Point: Same as above.
Physicians
[Male] $1,553
[Female]$899
Point: A doctor's pay is based largely on their client base. The longer they can stay in the office, the more patients they draw, the more money they make. Again, female doctors traditionally spend less time at work and more time at home, so they draw a smaller client base.

Grammar school teachers
[Male] $860
[Female]$701
Point: Teachers can increase their income by teaching more classes. Some teachers teach 3 classes a day while others teach 7, and some make additional money through managing extra cirrculiar activities. Being that there are NO SEPARATE PAY GUIDELINES for men and women, this statistic only shows that men probably take on a heavier work load during/after school.

College and university professors
[Male] $1,020
[Female]$805
Point: Same as above.

Sales workers
[Male] $684
[Female]$407
Point: Sales workers' salaries are based on commision. The longer you work, the more commisions one will accure.

Economists
[Male] $1,148
[Female]$785
Point: A man has more time to work, and is encouraged by society to work. A woman is encouraged to care for the young and her mate.

Lawyers
[Male] $1,439
[Female]$1,053
Point: Same as doctors.

Computer programmers
[Male] $968
[Female]$868
Point: Same basic premise. A man has more time to work, and is encouraged by society to work. A woman is encouraged to care for the young and her mate.

Mechanics
[Male] $641
[Female]$621
Point: Same basic premise, but one addition: Car work calls for heavy labour. I know this as my father was a professional race driver and I've worked on cars almost all my life. Due to a man's superior upper body strength and the nature of the job (monkey-arming off stubborn filters, fighting with rusted bolts, dropping trannies, etc.), he will be able to work longer and more productive hours than his female counterparts.

Overall
[Male] $646
[Female]$491
Point: Women on the whole have less time to work than men due to socitey's encouragement of the female's gender role as a mother, the nurturer. A male is encouraged to work and protect the family "pack." Therefore, he works more than the female and earns more money.

Married and working full time
[Male] $735
[Female]$517
Point: Women tend to stay home with the children more than a male, especially during early childhood and pre-adolescence. Therefore, she will have less time to work.

 

[kis123]

You only make 70% of what a man makes because you, the female gender, don't work as long as the male gender. Again, I will reiterate, no woman walks into a job where they are offered $7.00 an hour while a man is offered $10.00. It just doesn't happen. Lawyers are salvitating for soemthing like that. The company would get their asses sued off.
As far as the psychological makeup of men and women, yes you're absolutely right. Men rely more on logic and reasoning while women rely more on emotions and intuition. Both attributes good in some cases, bad in others. Men and women balance each other out. We compliment one another. Ying and Yang. All that happy stuff.
But that's not my argument.We're talking about CHOICE here, NOT control. Choice for both genders.
As far as you giving up on change, that's fine for you. That's why young people make things change. We have a fire in our bellies.
www.choiceformen.com

You have fire in your belly, but couple with a lack of knowledge and the ability to be led by the nose by the first person who tells you what you want to hear, it could be dangerous. You think because you're younger than me that you have more to contribute to this world? Think again dear because if it weren't for my generation and others past you wouldn't have the opportunity to sit by your computer and be so snide. And I'm still young as far as I and many of my generation are concerned.

You have an amazing ability to hear what you want to hear and twist words to back you up. If you spend half as much time in your studies as you do arguing a point that has been beaten to death on this thread like a dead horse, you'd be a Harvard scholar by now! I never said that I gave up on change. I am one of the most progressive people I know and could care less how others like what I do. That's why I'm on the TMF where others can embrace people who are considered different. If I was afraid of change, I wouldn't be here, that's for sure!

You need to stick with the issues and leave the personal attacks to the professionals, because you are by no means in my league. You and many of your "youthful" peers, need to learn to speak before you consider the effects your statements create. Thank goodness we live in America, right? My children are close in age to you and they know how to debate an issue respectfully and tastefully and get others to listen to them. Not yelling and personally attacking others the way you have throughout most of this entire thread, particularly when you don't get your way or if someone disagrees with you. I can't teach you respect, that was your parent's responsibility. You'll have to learn it from somewhere else. But get your facts straight before you bring them to me!

 

[kis123]

To ticklishbbw:
I disagree. Let's look at the professions listed, shall we?


Executives and managers
Male $1,014
Female $686
Point: Executives and managers salaries are based on performance and profit. They have a base pay, but they make over 30% of their income from performance/profit bonuses. The more time you have to work, the better your results. Females traditionally have LESS time than males to work - especially in this day and age of single mohterhood.

Management analysts
[Male] $1,340
[Female]$819
Point: Same as above.
Physicians
[Male] $1,553
[Female]$899
Point: A doctor's pay is based largely on their client base. The longer they can stay in the office, the more patients they draw, the more money they make. Again, female doctors traditionally spend less time at work and more time at home, so they draw a smaller client base.

Grammar school teachers
[Male] $860
[Female]$701
Point: Teachers can increase their income by teaching more classes. Some teachers teach 3 classes a day while others teach 7, and some make additional money through managing extra cirrculiar activities. Being that there are NO SEPARATE PAY GUIDELINES for men and women, this statistic only shows that men probably take on a heavier work load during/after school.

College and university professors
[Male] $1,020
[Female]$805
Point: Same as above.

Sales workers
[Male] $684
[Female]$407
Point: Sales workers' salaries are based on commision. The longer you work, the more commisions one will accure.

Economists
[Male] $1,148
[Female]$785
Point: A man has more time to work, and is encouraged by society to work. A woman is encouraged to care for the young and her mate.

Lawyers
[Male] $1,439
[Female]$1,053
Point: Same as doctors.

Computer programmers
[Male] $968
[Female]$868
Point: Same basic premise. A man has more time to work, and is encouraged by society to work. A woman is encouraged to care for the young and her mate.

Mechanics
[Male] $641
[Female]$621
Point: Same basic premise, but one addition: Car work calls for heavy labour. I know this as my father was a professional race driver and I've worked on cars almost all my life. Due to a man's superior upper body strength and the nature of the job (monkey-arming off stubborn filters, fighting with rusted bolts, dropping trannies, etc.), he will be able to work longer and more productive hours than his female counterparts.

Overall
[Male] $646
[Female]$491
Point: Women on the whole have less time to work than men due to socitey's encouragement of the female's gender role as a mother, the nurturer. A male is encouraged to work and protect the family "pack." Therefore, he works more than the female and earns more money.

Married and working full time
[Male] $735
[Female]$517
Point: Women tend to stay home with the children more than a male, especially during early childhood and pre-adolescence. Therefore, she will have less time to work.

Do you realize that you have just managed to torpedo your point entirely with this post? We are talking women working in the same profession as men with circumstances being equal including amount of time worked. It hasn't gone away thirty years ago like someone told you. It is alive and well today.

Besides, haven't you fallen far away from your intial thread? Or is it that you need some sort of distraction to keep everyone off the real issues?

 

[ticklishbbw]

Do you realize that you have just managed to torpedo your point entirely with this post? Besides, haven't you fallen far away from your intial thread? Or is it that you need some sort of distraction to keep everyone off the real issues?

My initial thread..funny, I thought this was YOUR thread. My last couple of responses were also in response to YOUR comments.

I have proven my point. I also work in the Manager/Professional field you spoke of. Your assumptions are all wrong. Manager positions (in most cases) are salaried, meaning full time. Rarely are people salary/exempt and part-time. So the number of hours worked must be at least 40 hours for the base pay. Also, as someone who supplies salary statistics, it is the BASE pay given, bonuses are not usually mentioned, when providing statistics to the Department of Labor. The department of labor is interested in regular salary not bonuses or perks. This is to keep the statistics on a level playing field (some companies do not provide bonuses). The second article I listed above, was based on Department of Labor Statistics.

 

[OBleedingMe]

You, madam, brought up the issue of unequal pay between the genders. I did not. I only stated my views.
Yes, I read the article, and in the FIRST PARAGRAPH they said what I have been saying all along. The majority of the pay gap is due to women working FEWER hours than men, or so they think. They don't KNOW how much of the 20% gap is due to fewer hours worked. It could be 1% or all 20%. Their data only proves there is a gap. You also must take into consideration the pressures society puts on women to take lower paying, "supplemental" jobs and to stay at home more.

 

[ticklishbbw]

I think not. I'm stating facts.
As far making the same amount of money as men do, then work the same 51 hour work week! Women, on the average, work a 28 hour work week while men, on the average, work a 51 hour work week. Of course females are going to receive less pay on the whole - they don't work as much! No woman gets hired at the Post Office and receives $10.00 an hour while a man recieves $15.00! That sexist crap stopped over thrity years ago.

There is a quote from YOUR post, that brings up this topic. YOU not me!

I also state, when mentioning the first article that they agree women work less hours, the statistical information was adjusted to account for that! the 20% gap is NOT due to a difference in hours.

 

[kis123]

You, madam, brought up the issue of unequal pay between the genders. I did not. I only stated my views.
Yes, I read the article, and in the FIRST PARAGRAPH they said what I have been saying all along. The majority of the pay gap is due to women working FEWER hours than men, or so they think. They don't KNOW how much of the 20% gap is due to fewer hours worked. It could be 1% or all 20%. Their data only proves there is a gap.

You also must take into consideration the pressures society puts on women to take lower paying, "supplemental" jobs and to stay at home more.

I don't know about you, but my mother worked in excess of 50+ hours a week. She worked nights so she could be home during the day with us. She was too exhausted to really participate in our lives, but I know she did her best.

I worked over forty hours a week in a night job. It sucked, but it gave me the opportunity to be with my kids during the day, and to take care of my mom until she died. My ex wanted me to quit my job and when I refused, all hell broke loose. He wasn't making enough money to support the entire family. Besides, my mother taught me to always have my own and never depend upon a man to do it all because he might or might not.

Society wasn't around when I made those kids, I was responsibile and made a quality decision just like my mom did. And my mother was married when she had her kids. My father walked away because he felt he had something better and because he was jealous of my mother's desire to work (something frowned upon in her generation). If she would've quit her job like my father wanted her to, what would've happened to me and my sisters when he left?

Society doesn't pressure women to take lower paying jobs and stay home with the kids. Initially, we were designed to stay home and provide the nurturing to the children and the balance in the home. When a woman becomes a mother, this desire is always in her, but because of economics she may not have this option.

 

[JoBelle]

OBM,

LOL, On the TMF this thread is obm land. You brought it up. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

She can keep the baby, she can abort it, she can put it up for adoption, etc. Anything she wants. All I am advocating for is a man's right to choose to accept fatherhood, just like a woman can CHOOSE to accept motherhood.

What I'm asking you is what you would do if you were given the rights you want? I mean you already gave up one right....you have the right not to make a baby at all. But, that means not having sex, and we all know that is just not acceptable.

Unfortunately, mother nature gave limited options here. Once you make a baby, fatherhood is in your future. What do you mean by "a man's right to accept fatherhood"? I gave you examples.

You ignored my questions. I get your point. You're miffed that the person who must actually BE pregnant has more say so over what happens.

Laws don't change for vague conceptual ideas.

What say you? What specific rights do you think you should have?

Jo

 

[OBleedingMe]

I don't know what they're teaching in colleges these days, but they really need to consider what our youth is being taught. Women working the same job under the same set of circumstances as men average 70% of what a man makes. And that's gone up over the years.

That was THE first mention of the unequal pay issue, made by YOU, kis123, not me. C'mon, you're a mother of two. Show some maturity.

To JoBelle:
First off, I never said abstinance wasn't an option. But it shouldn't be the ONLY option for a man because it isn't the ONLY option for a woman. And hey, all those women we lay - they aren't exactly saying no. Takes two to tango.
Specific rights? Very simple. The Choice For Men's Movement wants one right and one right only - the right to waive any parental rights and child support fees within 30 to 60 days of notification of pregnancy, should the father decide he is not ready for fatherhood.
A woman has a similar right to circumvent motherhood should she decide she is not ready for it - it's called abortion, and she has a similar time-span in which to make her decision.
As to your statement that once an egg is fertilized, fatherhood is "in the man's future," this is patently not true. The mother can have an abortion, she can give it up for adoption, or she can take advantage of the Legal Abandonment Law in effect in several states. As much as you may dislike it, a woman has a choice to accept motherhood. It's not "in her future." A man should be able to decide his own destiny, just as a woman can. And don't heap on the "he decided his destiny when he got in bed." That simply doesn't wash due to the fact that a woman's destiny is NOT decided when she goes into the bedroom, therefore neither should a man's.

 

[kis123]

That was THE first mention of the unequal pay issue, made by YOU, kis123, not me. C'mon, you're a mother of two. Show some maturity.

To JoBelle:
First off, I never said abstinance wasn't an option. But it shouldn't be the ONLY option for a man because it isn't the ONLY option for a woman. And hey, all those women we lay - they aren't exactly saying no. Takes two to tango.
Specific rights? Very simple. The Choice For Men's Movement wants one right and one right only - the right to waive any parental rights and child support fees within 30 to 60 days of notification of pregnancy, should the father decide he is not ready for fatherhood.
A woman has a similar right to circumvent motherhood should she decide she is not ready for it - it's called abortion, and she has a similar time-span in which to make her decision.
As to your statement that once an egg is fertilized, fatherhood is "in the man's future," this is patently not true. The mother can have an abortion, she can give it up for adoption, or she can take advantage of the Legal Abandonment Law in effect in several states. As much as you may dislike it, a woman has a choice to accept motherhood. It's not "in her future." A man should be able to decide his own destiny, just as a woman can. And don't heap on the "he decided his destiny when he got in bed." That simply doesn't wash due to the fact that a woman's destiny is NOT decided when she goes into the bedroom, therefore neither should a man's.

Please explain your little comment to me on your post and tell me how it pertains to maturity? All the little personal attacks don't change the truth. I wish you could just communicate your thoughts and opinions without trying to dominate and overpower the conversation. It's gotten rather boring.

If nothing else, your responses certainly provide entertainment. Claiming abortion as a way of circumventing parental rights is immature and unrealistic. Maybe we can go one step better, get a vasectomy and the problem is solved for the both of you! But it's easier to complain than to provide a viable solution. How about if you and all the others in your men's group line up for vasectomy's? That way you wouldn't need a men's group at all. But that would require a surgical procedure that is irreverisble, wouldn't it? So would an abortion! It's a surgical procedure that is irreversible and sometimes can cause permanent damage. If you don't want kids, then do the right thing and stop your bellyaching. You want it both ways and it's just not going to happen.

Everyone's fate is decided in that bedroom with each sexual encounter, not just the woman's or the man's. You don't have to like it but it's still true. Once the conception has taken place, tough choices must be made. I don't know how many times this has to be said to you.

This is the main reason why people should take more time to get to know each other before they even start having sex. If you don't want to pay the cost (financial, emotional, whatever) take the time to find out if this is the right person for you. Then, if she does get pregnant, you'll be better prepared for the consequences.

Shout and scream all you want, the bottom line hasn't changed. It's about responsiblity and making the tough choices. Something better known as maturity.

 

[natural tickler]

While this has become a heated topic on both sides of the equation, let me add my 2 cents. (returnable if not satisfied)

I believe the man should have a choice simply because it took two to tango. I know the woman has to go thru all the pregnancy and stuff, but a man should have some say. Because ladies, no matter how you twist it, you need a branch to make it happen. Without us, there is no you. Remember that. So, yes its your body, but we helped create, so give us that same respect, and honor our opinions, and let us have some say too. The choice should not be totally 100% woman's

Let us all calm down here people, the heat is too hot here

 

[kis123]

While this has become a heated topic on both sides of the equation, let me add my 2 cents. (returnable if not satisfied)

I believe the man should have a choice simply because it took two to tango. I know the woman has to go thru all the pregnancy and stuff, but a man should have some say. Because ladies, no matter how you twist it, you need a branch to make it happen. Without us, there is no you. Remember that. So, yes its your body, but we helped create, so give us that same respect, and honor our opinions, and let us have some say too. The choice should not be totally 100% woman's

Let us all calm down here people, the heat is too hot here

No one said a man doesn't have a choice. Men have been making choices about it for years, not necessarily the right ones. But, when he decides he's going to have the abortion or choose to carry the little muffin to term keep or adopt out, then he can have the final decision.

And without us, there is definitely no you. A woman can go to a sperm bank to conceive. She does not need a man for that. Judging by some of the responses to this thread, maybe she'd be better off if she did just that! Now , if she'd like to enjoy the conception process, that's a different story.

Personally, if a man thinks it's that bad to become a father, I'd probably wouldn't want him in my kids' life anyway. Let him go. He's the one missing out on something, not the moms. I wouldn't want a man to think something like reproducing his own flesh and blood to be something he'd want to be a participant. Let some other man do the work after he had the fun and ran. I don't need his money, but his kid needs him. And I believe that is what a lot of people that have OBM's mindset are missing.

Can you really have a kid and walk away knowing he/she is out there? How do you know if the kid's dead or alive, safe and warm, is enjoying life the way a kid should? Can a man really sleep at night knowing that his flesh and blood has another man in his life and they call him "daddy"? If you can really disengage yourself in that manner, then you must have ice water in your veins and granite for a heart. But again, that is your choice, isn't it?

 

[natural tickler]

Yeah you could go to a sperm bank, true enough, but it still took a branch to get what you need, so we both need each other, no matter how you twist it. Yeah, I know we some men who aren't men, but let's separate the real from the deadbeats, shall we? I am sensing that some of the heat you're directing is bitterness between you and the kid's father. Remember its not about either one of you: it's about the child, so try to work things out.


btw, I know how you feel, because my brother is going thru the same stuff, having a kid and not be in her life, but is trying to make it right, but baby's mama is refusing to cooperate. he knows he made a mistake,he admitted as such, and is trying to eradicate it, but she is not helping matters none. So, basically, it's not always our fault, it is 50-50 if ya ask me

 

[OBleedingMe]

Rrright, and a man can hire a surrogate mother. Any way you cut it - natural tickler is right. Men and women NEED each other.
But back to what you said, kis... I'm NOT talking about a final decision in what the woman does with her body. No one here is saying that. She can do what she likes with the pregnancy and her future, and the man should be able to control his future as well. It's only fair.
As for the "granite in your heart" comment, I wouldn't say too much if I were a woman... your gender has been murdering fetuses for the last thirty years. I think it takes a much colder person to end an innocent life than to simply refuse to financially support one.

 

[JoBelle]

Sign away the rights. That's intersting. It would indeed satisfy your immediate desire to be rid of the 'problem' you created.

If only it were that easy...unfortuantely, even if a woman were to support the child on her own after the male dismissed his parental responsibility, there will be a series of events that would unfold. Take a moment to think on the decades of evidence of the difficulties of single parent households. (Men or women in the head of it.) This translates to problems for society that all must pay for (with more than money). We're talking about everything from educational concerns to health issues.

I'm sorry that you feel you are being denied a right. I stand by my statement that since a woman is the one who must carry the child, then she should be entitled to some higher right of say. The pre-conception rights are the same. Once the two of you creat a baby and the woman is carrying the child, the rights become different even if you consider only the physical demands. To think of all the other aspects of the ability to work, the hormones/emotional stresses (post-partum depression is real and can send women to suicidal/homocidal thoughts), the dangers associtated with ending a pregnancy, etc. are overwhelming. That is all before a child is born. How you can expect the same rights at that point is beyond me.

The "balance" between rights and responsibilies is not ther ebetween men and women. You think it is unfair for the man. I say it's unfair form the woman's perspective. A man can flat out refuse to sign his name on the line saying he's the daddy. That's a start right there. A woman never gets a time-out to think over things. She doesn't get a window of opportunity to step away and evaluate. She's always pregnant! You see? You say you lack rights...but it would seem that you more than make up for it in other ways.

I suppose if the fetus were in some balloon floating in space, then I could see the need for equality in the choices. Fact for fact, mother nature created us differently, and no law will change that.

Mantra: Don't have sex unless you're ready to deal with the consequences. You know that having sex binds you to a set of criteria and law that are applicable to you. If you don't like it, don't put yourself in the situation until the laws change.

Well, once I repeat something three times I start to see that I'm useless in a conversation. I'm interested in the topic. Honestly, I'm surprised no one is beating the drum for the pro-life fathters who are being denied a child. Shouldn't right swing both ways? What is the fight there? How is it panning out?


Jo, following the conversation...if only in a more laconic manner.