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Why does Europe hate the Jews?

mabus

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Bill O'Reilly just asked question to Benjamin Netanyahu, and he didn't know. Lets face it, WWII wasn't fought to save the Jews, it was fought to defeat Hitler because he hated France and England after the Treaty of Versilles. They didn't care so much that he was persecuting the Jews, they just wanted to make sure they were the dominant power in Europe, not the Kaiser and then later Hitler.

France right now is suffering from a rash of anti-semitism, and Europe seems to be siding more with the Palestinians than the Jews.

I come from Louisiana, home of David Duke. He and the rest of the racist and Klan members hate the Jews. Billy Graham and Nixon had that famous conversation where they obviously didn't like them. WE entered WWII after Pearl harbor was attacked, not to defend the Jews. We knew the Holocaust was happening, and onlty gave aid to Britian and France in form of weapons and such, but they were our allies, so thats' kind of expected. There was a big rally in Madison Square garden, and many movie stars were there where they begged the US to step in and help stop the Holocaust. In fact, the ENTIRE history of the Holocaust was reported in the New York Times and other papers...on page 12. On page 5 in a small paragraph. "Oh, by the way, 100,000 Jews were killed in this village. 50,000 were executed by the Nazis in this area."

WHY!? What's the deal? I honestly don't know. I have researched this, and read the diatribes of racists, but can't find any solid answer, or any answer at all. They hate them, just, ...because! There must be a reason. I mean, there is the Biblical explanation, 'The Jews are the chosen people, therefore, they will be hated by Satan and his minions because ...they are God's chosen people,' but there must be a rational, real world explanation as well.

Some whites don't like blacks because they listen to loud music that glorifies violence and crime and abuse against women, or because of crime, rudeness, or general disrespect. Some blacks hate whites because way back when, some whites owned slaves, some whites are racist and want to keep the black people down, or they just don't like each other because of the color difference, or basically, and mostly, plain old FEAR.

There are more reasons, on each side, some justified, some not, but those are solid reasons, and a subjecty for another thread. There aren't ANY I see against the Jews, I mean, how do you even know someone is a Jew? How can you tell between a Christian, or Jew, if the other doesn't tell you what his religion is?

David Duke is from Louisiana, but I'm here to tell you, I don't even KNOW any Jews down here. I'm sure they have some, ...somewhere, but there are mostly Christians and Catholics. There are more pagans than Jews down here, from what I see! How can Duke hate Jews if they don't even live down here? (I'm sure they do, but come on, this is the Bible belt, and you really wouldn't know if a person was a Jew unless you stopped them and INTERVIEWED them about their heritage or religion!)

Anyone have ANY idea?
 
Racism is often used as a tool by a ruling class. If things are going badly, and the population is starting to get restless, blame it on a minority. That divides the lower orders and diverts attention from the failings of the rulers. The Jim Crow laws in the American South were passed starting in the 1890's, a time of economic distress. Tell someone that he's better than his neighbor, and it takes some of the sting out of being poor and hungry. They were as much aimed against poor Whites as against Blacks - the intention was to prevent any effective political cooperation among the less well off.

Why do Europeans hate Jews? Because, until recently, they didn't have any Blacks to hate.

Strelnikov
 
OK, here's basically what happened:

Back when the Catholic Church was the sole form of Christianity across Europe (roughly before about 1550ish), the Jews were pretty much the only religious minority around, so they automatically took a lot of flack.

Rules preventing them from owning land were common across Europe.

BUT, Jews were often tolerated, for one key reason:

Catholics at the time were not allowed to lend money at interest. They could borrow, but not lend.

Jews had no such restriction.

So wealthy Jews became what we'd call "venture capitalists" - and of course, bankers. Money lenders.

Which is never a very popular profession, even though it's critical. The oldest continuing business in the world is in Italy, it's about 550 years old, and they relied on Jewish venture capital several times (Beretta Firearms, in case you're curious).

Jews also got heavily into goldsmithing and jewelry of various sorts, which is where the DeBeers diamond cartel came from originally. Precious metals and jewelry could be hidden and transported when the next round of anti-Jew rioting hit. And there was a lot of cross-over between jewelry sales and money lending of various sorts...see also any modern pawn shop for an example.

In many cases, a town would "rise up" against the "ungodly" Jews when some aristocrat couldn't pay off his gambling debts. It was cheaper to find some crazy firebrand racist preacher to stir the people up, get some anti-Jew riots going, drive 'em out and/or rob 'em, and solve everybody's debt problems as a nice tidy side effect.

For an insight into popular views on this subject circa mid-1600's, see also Shakespeare's play "The Merchant Of Venice".

Even today, there are wealthy European Jewish bankers...the House of Rothschilds is a relic of those times.

It was this historic link between Jews and high finance that allowed Hitler to claim that Jews were destroying the German economy. It was utter horsecrap of course, but it "sounded right" to the out-of-work and pissed-off German in the street who was looking for a scapegoat.

Scapegoating happens today. Criminals often use guns. Law-abiding NRA members have guns too. So there's idiots like Rosie O'Donnel out there who assume all NRA members have criminal tendencies. Nothing could be further from the truth: the group that hates gun abuse and real criminals the *most* are the honest gun owners.

Anyways. That's the real story behind anti-Jew racism.

Addendum: if it hadn't been for the Jews, European civilization would have stagnated just as it did in the Islamic world. Muslims were prohibited from both borrowing and lending and hence didn't develop "big business" the way Europe did.

The Islamic world had yet another handicap: their inheritence laws demanded that any man's assets be sub-divided according to a set recipe among his heirs. Which meant that any stake he had in a business partnership had to be dissolved. No Islamic business can survive past a couple of generations tops, until the recent development of stocks and shares. But to this day, small Islamic businesses can't develop into bigger ones very easily without being "shredded" in probate. In the case of the Berreta corporation, each head of the business picked a single family member of the next generation to take over both management and ownership; by picking carefully, they've lasted over 500 years (they still have paper copies of the first order they ever got, for a shipment of cannon barrels :cool:). Under Islamic law, what Berreta does was, and still is, illegal.

If Mohammed was God's prophet, God should have seen fit to give the dude some business sense because as God is MY witness, he was utterly lacking in that department. If it wasn't for oil, they'd all be dirt broke.

Final lesson for the day: if something is screwed up, REALLY screwed up, look for the money link. It's there somewhere.
 
why? here's the short version

Deleted because of direct flame-baiting.
 
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Why do Jews hate Punk Rockers?

On a recent surfing expedition, I went in search of the symbol of punk rock music, the anarchy symbol (an A inside of a circle) for use inside of a windows desktop theme (70's punk) that I was working on for my PC... Google returns, among other things, a link to the ADL page (this would be the Anti-Defamation League, FYI). Lo and behold, amidst the swastikas and other offensive logos, sits a bright red anarchy symbol... Gimmie a break! they mention supremist groups and their interpretation... not one reference to punk music. Perhaps they don't understand what the punk movement was all about, a revolt against corporate pop... that's all! Does this mean that if clem and bubba decide to adopt the McDonald's "M" for their deliverance chapter of the skinheads, that McDonalds would have to change their logo?
I read why on their site, I don't buy it. The circled A stands for Anarchy, musical anarchy... nothing more, if some clowns decided to "borrow" it for socio-religious-extremist mumbo jumbo, then that's THEIR problem. I may not live the punk lifestyle, but I've been a fan of punk music since its inception. My SUV has a big bumper sticker that says "you're following a RAMONES fan", the A in RAMONES is the Anarchy symbol. If people are all of a sudden going to be offended by it, tough!
Like George Carlin says "Symbols are for the Symbol-Minded". I could understand the actual hate group symbols being offensive, but leave us punkers alone!
(may seem trivial and silly, and may not be the proper forum, but I was quite offended to see this symbol on their site in that context)
 
why?

will the moderator who pulled my post to this thread please e-mail me with the reason?
steve
 
That's a tough question, Mabus, and frankly, you really have to consult your history books for that one. Anti-semitism has to extend at least as far back as the Romans (2000 years). During the last 1000 years, European Jews were forced out of England, France, and Spain and forced to give up all that they had built and worked for. If you take that and add what happened to the Jews in Poland and Germany during the second World War, you have some relatively recent history of fierce anti-semitism in Europe. Yes, as aforementioned, they were used as scapegoats. Their success surely contributed to stirring up these feelings of hate. Some of it was plain religious persecution due to the ruling class being the then extremely fanatical Church. Either way, the history of the Jews dates back 5000 years or so, so you really have to go back a long way to discover the root of anti-semitism.

In answer to your question about how Jews are identified, sometimes its by last name. This is why people were known to have changed their last names. Jews even did this in show business in this country despite the great number of Jewish entertainers and 'relative' tolerance here (it was not a tolerant age). Your family records and history are another way of identification.

Why do Jews hate punk rockers?

I didn't know that they did. I'm Jewish, and I definitely like the Sex Pistols, The Buzzcocks, The Damned, and The Clash amongst others. The Sex Pistols did exhibit a taste for Faschistic/Nazi content, however (ex. 'Belsen was a Gas'), so I definitely wouldn't wish to throw my hat in the ring with them, ideologically speaking. Each band could be taken on their own terms/merits. The Clash, Red Rockers, and some of the post-punkers (Gang of Four, Killing Joke) came from a Leftist political perspective that would not be akin to some of their peers.
 
Dear Mabus,

Your question is important and there are several components to an answer. Unfortunately, the primary historical reason is that for many centuries Christianity preached and practiced hatred of the Jewish people as part of its ideology of replacing Judaism with Christian teachings. Part of that "supercessionism" involved blaming the Jewish people for Jesus's crucifixicion and associating Jews with evil. Christians were taught to dispise and revile Jews and Judaism and all sorts of violence was committed against them. In this way the culture in Europe, over time, became deeply stained with an anti-Jewish character, eventually allowing Hitler to perform his genocides without serious opposition. A new book is out on this subject called "Constantine's Sword" which you should try to read if you are serious about understanding this phenomenon.

P.S. Mr. Strelnikov--reading your response to this question has helped me to grasp why you don't see the powerful, particular anti-Jewish hatred at work in Islamic and European attitudes toward the State of Israel. This hatred transcends any particular dispute with Israel regarding specific territories and policies.
 
Hatred I feel is always born out of not knowing the people you think you hate. I feel many of the Christian faith especially those in the clergy should have had more dialog with those of the Jewish faith. I think any misconceptions would have melted away and a friendship would have resulted.

For me when I was a kid two of my best friends were Jewish and I was Catholic and none of that mattered a bit. At that time I did not have any friends except for them and it seemed these two people were the only ones who liked me despite my weirdness. So how could I ever hate anyone for being Jewish when at that time even people of my own faith would shun me or make fun of me. Ultimately the moral is I think to get to know your neighbors no matter what their backgroung is and the hatred will disappear or never develop in the first place. Maybe I'm too idealistic but I find it odd that with so much 21st Hi-Tech communicaton stuff around we still seem not to know one another.
 
P.H. Tickler:

The "Anti-Defamation League" is famous for overstating the number of "hate websites" out there. When they released a master list of hate sites, a whole pile of pro-gun type sites made the list for no apparant reason. After an avalanche of complaints, they revised the website but the CD-ROMs they sell with the "complete data" on 'em weren't revised until yet another round of complaints.

But remember, that's just one organization, and a single function of that org handled by a small group inside that org. It's silly to extrapolate "the views of the entire Jewish race" off of that one bit of stupidity.

To see a website from a group of Jews that totally disagree with the ADL on at least some issues, check out: http://www.jpfo.org
 
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." --Woody Allen
 
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ddd-

I'll stand by my post. It's always about the maintenance of power. Jim's post is really an amplification of mine, because money IS power. If the Jews had stayed in Palestine, European rulers would have created another scapegoat.

Strelnikov
 
I Don't Buy It

This was a loaded question to start with. We are being asked to accept as unchallengeable the premise that Europe hates Jews. I consider this a smear against good friends. Europeans are being labelled as anti-semetic in order to discredit the legitimate gripes they have with Ariel Sharon's policies. I'm not naive enough to suggest there is no anti-semetism in Europe but I don't see it as the driving force in European policy or public opinion.

Headtripper25
 
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I agree with headtripper. Europe is not anti-Semitic! This sentiment is a remnant from history.

Yes, we have Neo-Nazis in Europe, but the US has them, too. It's only an insignificant part of the population (less than 2%), but they create a lot of noise.

In Germany, any anti-Semitic actions, speeches, and printed material are completely forbidden by law, punishable by considerable jail sentences. Neo-Nazis are closely watched by our intelligence services.

France has a lot more immigrants from Arabian countries (their former colonies), but there is nothing anti-Semitic in the French population or government.

Disagreeing with the current Israeli government has nothing to do with anti-Semitism at all. It's purely political, but many Jews regard every criticism against Israel as anti-Semitic.

Most European Neo-Nazi organizations have their own websites on US servers, as they are safe from indictments there, by the way…
 
Anti Semitism alive and well.....

I had the missfortune to meet one of the dying embers of the Third Reich a couple of years back on a musical trip to france, it was a very creepy experience and I wish I had had the guts to stay in the accommodation for the whole trip and listen to the stuff he was coming out with (mainly a racist bigots guided tour of western europe) but I could not take it and asked to be relocated pdq. Its quiet a good story maybe i will tell it some day.
 
Quoting from Hal:
"...there is nothing anti-Semitic in the French population or government."

My response: Har-de-har-har. Anyone here who believes that, would you like to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? Maybe some gold bricks? The Gestapo never had any trouble finding Frenchmen who would rat out Jews. The Italians, German allies, had a better record in this respect than the French. Judging from current news of fire bombings and grave desecrations in France, I doubt that much has changed.

Strelnikov
 
Strelnikov--

Very true about France. Thanks for making that point.

Headtripper and Hal--

You have it backwards. There is extreme anti-Israel sentiment in Europe because those countries have a deep, abiding anti-Jewish bias. Why don't those countries march and scream and protest against the evils perpetrated in Arab, African, South American or Communist regimes? ONLY Israel fires up their "moral indignation".

QUOTE: "Disagreeing with the current Israeli government has nothing to do with anti-Semitism at all."

Hal, this is true, HOWEVER, portraying Israel in a prejudiced, one-sided light as supremely evil and totally to blame for the situation in the Middle East IS "antisemitic", anti-Jewish and morally blind. Recently a French AMBASSADOR called Israel, "a shitty little country". Does that sound like reasoned political dialogue to you or the words of a Jew-hater?

Hal--when you say something is a "remnant of history", how far back is "history" for you. The Holocaust occurred less than 60 years ago. "Historically speaking" that's the blink of an eye.

dig dug dog
 
Strelnikov, you're constantly mixing up Nazi times with nowaday's Europe. Your view could only be broadened by a trip here. If only to get a break from your distorted views here at the TMF, it would be worth the time.

ddd, history is everthing from yesterday backwards. My own parents were kids of 11 and 13 when the war ended, and they were both expatriated in the Czech version of 'ethnical cleansing' (the Benes doctrin). For how many generations does a people have to pay for their grandfather's and earlier ancestors' sins?

Another point: your view works both ways. Maybe the Israeli are just a little bit anti-European? Additionally, from our own history, we can't condone the military actions that Israel is taking now. Our European common sense says: That's not the right way to get rid of terrorism, and we're just trying to convey this view. The solitary actions of a French diplomat are meaningless IMO. This man has no right whatsoever to call himself a 'diplomate'!

Last not least, all of you forget about the original meaning of the word 'semitic'. It comprises all Arab nations as well as the Jews, at least ethnologically. The Jews have made it sure that anti-semitic means anti-Israelic and anti-Jew.

I will now withdraw from the political threads of this section for a while. There are too many ultra-conservatives here for me to keep cool. I have traveled most of the world, and some of their small, narrow minds make me just sick. Excuse me, I've got to puke now...
 
wait a minute hal

in your email you said what i wrote was insulting to others, thats why you pulled my post that read "ignorance, and jelousy "were to blame for anti-semitism.

now here you call those you disagree with names, and insult them directly! i call this hypocritical.

i thought you were better than this! you've let me down.
steve
 
Sizzling!

Man, how did I miss this boiling kettle of water you're calling a thread..lol? Sounds like there's a bit of miscommunication happening...the topic is pretty "wide", and that usually creates problems. To classify Europe in one quick sentence seems a bit absurd...its the equivalent of visiting Florida and deciding that the USA is composed of very very old people, and young people standing in line at Disney World waiting to become very very old people! There IS anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment in a lot of Europe, but to smack the big "label" on the entire mass of people there is a bit much...hmmm? Personally, I'm mostly Italian, and my grandfather said that although they were theoretical Axis partners, the basic goal was to be left alone to tend the vineyards and strut around looking serious when the Germans were around...otherwise there wasn't much "passion" about the war with the exception of the larger cities populations, which he said were always looking for something to get excited about and not have to do any real work....as we have discussed on other threads with similar themes, taking ANY group of people and classifying them is just damn LAZY...you have to make the effort to hate people one at a time, and you'll soon find out that it's HARD to do that...it takes time, and effort to block out any redeeming factors that may contradict your assumption of grounds for hatred. No group is perfect, no group is totally wrong or right...there's 3 sides to every story....yours, mine and the middle area where most of the truth falls. Q
 
Good piece Halty Boy

I hope i have not been one of the reasons you are feeling so sick, if so then i appologise with out reservation. I hope you will continue to contribute to this forum and as you say you have no reason to be responsible for events of 39 to 45 I am I think about the same age as you and my parents were children at the time as yours were. I am a keen student of that period of history and i enjoy also the myths and legends associated with it but I do not hold any grudges against you or most other Germans (save the guy I met in france who was about 70)

I must say your basic premise regarding "the sins of the fathers" is one I have not given a great deal of thought to, and having read your piece realise I should. I think I need to hear more of your views not less.
 
Dig Dug Dog- I'd like to try and approach this from another angle. Let's take the original question "why does Europe hate Jews" and change it to "why does America hate blacks." Than we can cite centuries of persecution that will firmly establish America as a black hating nation. Now let's jump to the year 2001 and add Jesse Jackson and his policy positions into the mix. By your logic 3d, no white American can legitimately oppose Jesse or his policies without being labeled a racist because America is a black hating country. By your logic I am now free to lump everyone who disagrees with Jesse into a single black hating mass. If you question Jesse on his infidelities I may well ask you where your moral indignation is for the infidelities of Rudy Guliani and Newt Gingrich.

This is the pandoras box that is opened by this kind of thinking.

Headtripper25
 
I've met many Europeans who sneer at Americans for being racist. They're far too civilized for that sort of thing, you see.

From this side of the pond, it appears that the real difference is that Americans (and, to be fair, Germans too) have been forced to confront our racist past and deal intelligently with it. I'll not deny that it still exists. But we've made great progress in my lifetime, and continue to do so. Where, other than America, would someone like Colin Powell or Joe Lieberman be mentioned as a serious candidate for Head of Government? Europeans, OTOH, are still in denial.

Strelnikov
 
Excellent point Strelnikov. Sure no one in this country is perfect and we made a lot of mistakes in terms of racism, but we have faced them and are moving on. Have we eliminated all prejudice? No, of course not, but we are still always trying to deal with the problems head on. I think we have perhaps the most ethnically diverse culture in the world that is our source of strength not a weakness. At times it may cause conflicts but more often it binds us together like after 9/11. To be honest I don't know if any other country could have handled such diversity so well.

By the way in terms of blacks. I think Britain and Denmark had quite a bit of slave trading going on as well. I know at least the Dutch had several colonies in Africa. It seems maybe Europe should come to terms with some of that as well. As for Europe being all antisemetic I don't think they are but I do think they have a problem. Perhaps instead of trying to be all high and mighty they should acknowledge it and deal with it. As Strelnikov has said I think Germany has done so at least from talking to some German friends I know. So to be fair I think they may far ahead in terms of the rest of Europe.
 
Strelnikov and Kurchatovium- The point of my last post was not to advocate the position that America is a racist country. I was merely trying to show how unfairly I think europeans have been treated on this thread by using the same arguments and applying them to America.I reject labeling europe as anti-semetic and I reject labeling America as racist.

Take Care,
Headtripper25
 
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