a confession because i hate deceit, and yet i did it..

[kis123]

kis, i understand where you're coming from, but you are overlooking a couple of things.

First of all, the husband does have the right to have a say in what his wife does as far as sexuality is concerned. If tickling is sexual to her, he has as much to say to her about not being involved in it with other people as she has as much to say to him about not looking at porn. People think tickling is an exception, but it's not. As long as she doesnt engage in any sexually relative activity with another man or woman, it's not really cheating, and he really doesn't have a right to demmand she doesnt come to the forum anymore than she has a right to tell him not to look at porn for example, but he does have a right to be upset by it, and show his greivance for it. and if she was getting alot of attention here from guys who were getting off sexually at what she was saying, well that would be as much his business as if he was getting female attention in the reverse, would it not be?

arranging tickle dates behind is back, is just plain wrong, that is providing the tickling is a sexual experience. if it's just fun, then it's just fun, and he should get over it. but if his paranoia is justified and its a sexual experience for her and the other person invovled, then it is most certainly his business provided the marriage is not some weird polygamous one.

it would be the same if he had a woman on the side who they didnt exactly have sex with, but they did sexual things that resulted in pleasure. she'd feel pretty betrayed, and she should.

this is something people overlook here.

and breaking a promise, and lying, is never the right thing to do, even if what he asks for is not nessicarily right. like i say, it depends on if tickling is sexual for her or not. but the excuse "i found the forum after i said i do" doesnt cut it. she made a commitment, till death do you part, and you either stick to that commitment, or find out your life is more sexual than you thought and give up the marriage for the sexual godessness of the tickle forum and tickle dates. tickling isnt any exception to the rules my friends, no matter what you think. (and quite honestly, its things like this that make people look down on fetishes, people who are happily married but go around doign sexual things with others just cuz)

if he is being unreasonable, and the tickling is just fun, then she needs to just plainly state she isnt going to be away from here, if thats how she feels, and then it's up to him if he still has a problem with that, and if it could result in the end of their marriage. but lying because he is being unreasonable, just makes his unreasonablity more understandable.


if tickling is sexual, it should be tabboo with all others than your significant other
if its just fun, then your significant other should be understanding of that and trust you
but if you lie to your significant other, and if the sexual activity of tickling isnt taboo concerning others if you're in a commited relationship, then you arent worthy of that trust, and quite honestly, you're a form of a slut.

no offense to anyone.

If your partner is too narrow minded in thinking, domineering and controlling in the household, and doesn't think outside the box in the bedroom, what do you think will eventually happen? Men have been controlling this for millenia; why is it when a woman wants to indulge herself sexually, she's a slut? If a man is not getting it like he wants it in the bedroom, he eventually steps out!

And I can see a dominating man from 100 miles especially since I lived with one for 10 years. He wanted control not love and stepped out on me. Do you know what his excuse was? 'If a man's not getting it at home, he has the right to get it somewhere else'. Well, last I checked, that's not the way a marriage goes.

I know about this situation more than you think and my response was based on it. This ain't the 1950s where women needed men for everything; this is 2008 and women want the same things as the men do and the arena for getting them is wide open. Do I agree with it?? Certainly not, but it is reality nowadays. IMO, if the two of them don't start dealing with this tickling issue, something really bad is going to happen because there's no way Izzy is going to leave here or stop continuing to pursue her tickling desires.

Tightening the reigns is not the solution; getting some help outside of home would be a good place to start for both of them.

 

[Ray<3tiklishft]

To be honest i had a weird feeling about the whole thing,but i thought it might be a guy.

Ditto. There definitely was something not quite right about The Cat's posts.

But it's good to 'see' you again Izzy!

 

[isabeau]

i've come back to set the record straight..i did not create the name innocentsexcat to hide from my husband..i created the name innocentsexcat to set up a member of the forum that i had fallen for hard..and despite all my friends warnings, i wouldn't listen...and what business did i have falling for anyone while married? well i won't get into all that..i've been far too open as it is..so i created kitty to prove to myself that what my friends said was true..that the person i had fallen for was a player, using the same lines that worked for me on others..and i thought i had proved it until last friday when he said he knew it was me all along..my husband knew about innocentsexcat but not why i had created her..i'm not trying to be a martyr or wanting or inviting everyone to hate me..actually i owe no one an explanation..but i don't want people to think my husband is some sort of tyrant. i deserved what happened to me because i fell for someone other than my husband..what right did i have to do that to him or myself? i may be fifty two years old, but i'm damn naive for my age and not worldy...

that is why i created innocentsexcat..my mistake was in answering any pms from those other than the person i was trying to set up..when i had done that, i should have let innocentsexcat fade away..

again i'm surprised i haven't been more flamed than this..and Lindy..i wouldn't leave a forum just because people hated me..this is online not real life..and i need to learn to rememeber that fact..

so the record is straight i hope..i didn't come here as someone else in order to post behind my husband's back..i came here to get over something as her..i told my husband everything as i end up doing anyway..

 

[Icycle]

i deserved what happened to me because i fell for someone other than my husband..what right did i have to do that to him or myself?

I'm not sure what happened to you, but I don't think you deserve punishment just for falling for someone even though you are married. Getting married doesn't make it impossible to have feelings for anyone but one's spouse. Lots of married folks are attracted to people outside their marriage. That is completely normal, and there's really not much you can do to change it. The only thing that you can change is your actions.

this is online not real life..and i need to learn to rememeber that fact..

But do remember that the online world may not be a physical place, but it is filled with real people with real feelings. You fall in love with someone or hurt someone online, and feels just as good or bad as in the real world, both for you and them, even if you never meet face to face.

 

[Jester_777]

Good Gracious

Frankly, I don't think what she's done is a huge deal, but c'mon; this goofball has made more "farewell appearances" than Streisand.
She's not going anywhere, not for long.

I wonder if the husband really even knows about any of this, or if he's just been her excuse for the drama......

But, I'm biased. I thought the whole 3rd person/Eartha Kitt as Catwoman thing was nauseating.

Frankly, I don't see why anyone would care about what a bunch of tickle fetishists think of them (myself included). You think they'd give a rat's ass, or call you such a "sweet person" if you didn't talk tickle? You're only important to them as long as you give them what they want. As long as you do that, you're golden. Stop doing it, and see how long they care.

 

[FeatherFeet]

If your partner is too narrow minded in thinking, domineering and controlling in the household, and doesn't think outside the box in the bedroom, what do you think will eventually happen? Men have been controlling this for millenia; why is it when a woman wants to indulge herself sexually, she's a slut? If a man is not getting it like he wants it in the bedroom, he eventually steps out!

And I can see a dominating man from 100 miles especially since I lived with one for 10 years. He wanted control not love and stepped out on me. Do you know what his excuse was? 'If a man's not getting it at home, he has the right to get it somewhere else'. Well, last I checked, that's not the way a marriage goes.

I know about this situation more than you think and my response was based on it. This ain't the 1950s where women needed men for everything; this is 2008 and women want the same things as the men do and the arena for getting them is wide open. Do I agree with it?? Certainly not, but it is reality nowadays. IMO, if the two of them don't start dealing with this tickling issue, something really bad is going to happen because there's no way Izzy is going to leave here or stop continuing to pursue her tickling desires.

Tightening the reigns is not the solution; getting some help outside of home would be a good place to start for both of them.

and with all due respect, ur experiences with it cloud ur judgment. no one is right when they step out, for any reason whatsoever. that man's excuse is no more right than a woman's excuse that her husband is controlling. if she isnt getting what she wants in the household, then she needs to deal with the problem directly with her partner. if she still isnt getting it, and can't live without it, then she should break it off with him BEFORE engaging in any activity with anyone else. if she doesnt, and is engaging the sexual activity with multiple people under the excuse the first guy doesnt understand her needs, then im sorry, but that is slutty behavior, same was as if a guy used that excuse, kept the woman at home, but got some out of the house. then yes, that's wrong on all levels, man or woman has nothing to do with it.

woman these days tend to think when a guy does it, it's totally wrong, but then when a woman does it, supports her dramatically saying "its mens fault!" that's just hypocritical. stop seeing it as man or woman, start seeing it as right or wrong, becxause thats the only way things will ever get better.

and as i said, she's married. she made a commitment, if her tickling desire is a sexual one, and she can't control that, same as he wouldnt be able to control a pronography desire, that's going to create ripples in the relationship. and if the partner is not enough to satisfy you in that sexual area, then yeah, a change is needed. but sneaking behind his back for it is not the answer anymore than him asking her to make unreasonable prommises is.

almsot always in a situation like this, woman have a past of what they felt was a "controlling man" so they always support the woman who does something dishonorable, telling her it's ok because the guy did something dishonorable first. the old saying is true, two wrongs don't make a right. so dont try to justify her actions, or make her feel like she didnt do something wrong, because she did.
maybe its a little more understandable, but it's still wrong. and don't pretend that if it was a guy who said relativly the same thing about his wife, you wouldnt be thinking what he was doing was horrible.
gender makes people as blind as race has in the past. and as ive stated before, women tend to support women and men tend to support men, that's a hurdle we all need to get over.

 

[FeatherFeet]

Frankly, I don't think what she's done is a huge deal, but c'mon; this goofball has made more "farewell appearances" than Streisand.
She's not going anywhere, not for long.

I wonder if the husband really even knows about any of this, or if he's just been her excuse for the drama......

But, I'm biased. I thought the whole 3rd person/Eartha Kitt as Catwoman thing was nauseating.

Frankly, I don't see why anyone would care about what a bunch of tickle fetishists think of them (myself included). You think they'd give a rat's ass, or call you such a "sweet person" if you didn't talk tickle? You're only important to them as long as you give them what they want. As long as you do that, you're golden. Stop doing it, and see how long they care.

ur last paragraph isn't far off, jester.

 

[tcklft]

this goofball has made more "farewell appearances" than Streisand.
She's not going anywhere, not for long.

LOL! Too true, too true....

 

[Ace Riley]

kinda like getting a character endorsement from Bill Clinton...

I'll take that as a compliment. 😛

 

[Babbles]

If you're not here to promote Wuv, folks, cork it creatively-

I'll take that as a compliment. 😛

You got that right. Brilliant humanistic politician only needed to answer to his wife. I only wish those were the circumstances for the past eight *extremely harmful years.

Similarly --- Isabeau, this is no big deal, you really did no harm, and you told your husband on top of it all, though I'm sure you would've anyway -- If you feel the need to come clean with this little group here, I'm SURE you're not the sort to keep inappropriate secrets from your spouse
(and while I basically admire Clinton politically, I will say that the little you've done here is nowhere *near his personal weakness/betrayal of his wife).

And hell yeah, you certainly owe NOBODY HERE an explanation,

--anyone who "gets off" posting a harsh putdown here really needs to
re-examine their own miserable little life. 😡

I also agree with Drew, TUNE OUT said flatheads who feel the need to post half-informed judgements
which are none of their frickin' business. 🙄 Though he phrased it more genteel-ly...

If any of you bozos feel the need to kick someone when they've put themselves down,

---would you at least have the MINIMAL decency to put it in a Private Message already?!?!?!
That is what that button is for...

Otherwise ignore it, be civil or re-enroll in Kindergarten, your taxes have paid for it.

It was very kind of you, Isabeau, to post this in the first place, you owed nothing except perhaps to those few you PMed.

Many here have alter-egos for many good reasons, such as privacy, etc.,
that doesn't make anyone either unethical nor dangerous...

As it's been said, probably best by Kis, this is between you and your husband, and I hope he opens his mind along with his heart, to understand you fully.

I don't care what gender you are, you're clearly a truly kind soul, it's always a pleasure to see you around

 

[lk70]

Frankly, I don't see why anyone would care about what a bunch of tickle fetishists think of them (myself included). You think they'd give a rat's ass, or call you such a "sweet person" if you didn't talk tickle? You're only important to them as long as you give them what they want. As long as you do that, you're golden. Stop doing it, and see how long they care.

Wow. Is that how you really feel? Why even contribute then? Why in the world would you want to be part of such a callous, shallow and horrible bunch of people?

 

[kis123]

and with all due respect, ur experiences with it cloud ur judgment. no one is right when they step out, for any reason whatsoever. that man's excuse is no more right than a woman's excuse that her husband is controlling. if she isnt getting what she wants in the household, then she needs to deal with the problem directly with her partner. if she still isnt getting it, and can't live without it, then she should break it off with him BEFORE engaging in any activity with anyone else. if she doesnt, and is engaging the sexual activity with multiple people under the excuse the first guy doesnt understand her needs, then im sorry, but that is slutty behavior, same was as if a guy used that excuse, kept the woman at home, but got some out of the house. then yes, that's wrong on all levels, man or woman has nothing to do with it.

woman these days tend to think when a guy does it, it's totally wrong, but then when a woman does it, supports her dramatically saying "its mens fault!" that's just hypocritical. stop seeing it as man or woman, start seeing it as right or wrong, becxause thats the only way things will ever get better.

and as i said, she's married. she made a commitment, if her tickling desire is a sexual one, and she can't control that, same as he wouldnt be able to control a pronography desire, that's going to create ripples in the relationship. and if the partner is not enough to satisfy you in that sexual area, then yeah, a change is needed. but sneaking behind his back for it is not the answer anymore than him asking her to make unreasonable prommises is.

almsot always in a situation like this, woman have a past of what they felt was a "controlling man" so they always support the woman who does something dishonorable, telling her it's ok because the guy did something dishonorable first. the old saying is true, two wrongs don't make a right. so dont try to justify her actions, or make her feel like she didnt do something wrong, because she did.
maybe its a little more understandable, but it's still wrong. and don't pretend that if it was a guy who said relativly the same thing about his wife, you wouldnt be thinking what he was doing was horrible.
gender makes people as blind as race has in the past. and as ive stated before, women tend to support women and men tend to support men, that's a hurdle we all need to get over.

My dear, I never said it was right; I only said it was real! You can fight with the morality issues all you like, but the bottom line is that things have drastically changed for modern women and men are going to have to deal with that. We've endured it for centuries and decades; this is the only generation where women can truly choose.

I never said things were right; I only said that's today's reality. Preach all you will, but the bottom line, it comes to personal choice.

 

[MrPartickler]

Similarly --- Isabeau, this is no big deal, you really did no harm, and you told your husband on top of it all, though I'm sure you would've anyway -- If you feel the need to come clean with this little group here, I'm SURE you're not the sort to keep inappropriate secrets from your spouse
(and while I basically admire Clinton politically, I will say that the little you've done here is nowhere *near his personal weakness/betrayal of his wife).

And hell yeah, you certainly owe NOBODY HERE an explanation,

--anyone who "gets off" posting a harsh putdown here really needs to
re-examine their own miserable little life. 😡

I also agree with Drew, TUNE OUT said flatheads who feel the need to post half-informed judgements
which are none of their frickin' business. 🙄 Though he phrased it more genteel-ly...

If any of you bozos feels the need to kick someone when they've put themselves down,

---would you at least have the MINIMAL decency to put it in a Private Message already?!?!?!
That is what that button is for...

Otherwise ignore it, be civil or re-enroll in Kindergarten, your taxes have paid for it.

It was very kind of you, Isabeau, to post this in the first place, you owed nothing except perhaps to those few you PMed.

Many here have alter-egos for many good reasons, such as privacy, etc.,
that doesn't make anyone either unethical nor dangerous...

As it's been said, probably best by Kis, this is between you and your husband, and I hope he opens his mind along with his heart, to understand you fully.

I don't care what gender you are, you're clearly a truly kind soul, it's always a pleasure to see you around

I'm not sure, but did you intend to post something chock full of it's own harsh put-downs and half-informed conclusions of your own while chastising others for doing the same? 😕 And none of it is in a PM, by the way.

I didn't think I'd post in this thread again actually, but this all seems pretty ridiculous. By that I mean: Izzy makes a public admission, invites public opinion, gets it, and even the worst of them are so mild she's admittedly surprised herself. Still, anyone with anything disapproving to add gets attacked--by others with different opinions, insults, judgments of their own? 🙄

Anyway, I'll agree it's not a huge deal. It's already in the rear-view mirror for my part. However, if asked, I still say: not cool. Why? Well, suffice to say your experiences are not identical to everyone else's with this. Without saying more, that's just something to think about.

 

[FeatherFeet]

My dear, I never said it was right; I only said it was real! You can fight with the morality issues all you like, but the bottom line is that things have drastically changed for modern women and men are going to have to deal with that. We've endured it for centuries and decades; this is the only generation where women can truly choose.

I never said things were right; I only said that's today's reality. Preach all you will, but the bottom line, it comes to personal choice.

again no offense, but i don't kno where the woman's choice was ever in dispute. this is a side track alot of women make when talking about a woman's "step out" about women having choices now, and men not being able to handle that.
whenever a woman makes a choice that is obvioulsy morally wrong, they run to the defense of "well men just can't handle woman having a choice!" with all due respect, that's an easy cop out. it couldnt be at all the fact that maybe the choice itself they make is wrong, could it? it couldnt have to do with the fact that maybe one person just doesnt like seeing another person do something dishonest, does it? no, it always has to be about "men" trying to restrict "women" but when women complain about men making those choices, well thats ok, because men have had that choice for how long?
or is the excuse behind this just that because women are so new at making choices for themselves that they're so unused to it that it's obvious theyre going to screw up and that makes it ok?
got news for ya, the women of this generation have had the same choices men have had for most of, if not all of their lives, and if they aren't ready to chose right over wrong, then no amount of millenia of freedom is going to prepare them for that.
or is the women opression thing going to be the argument that always comes forth when trying to explain a woman's lapse in moral judgment? it's kind of funny to be using the fact that women have MORE freedom as an excuse for them to be making WORSE choices, isn't that kind of going against the argument alltogether?
again, this is all a side argument women bring into it when trying to defend eachother. it has nothing to do with "women have more choices today, so thats why they choose these morally bankrupt things!" it has to do with one human being, making a mistake that could hurt another human beign. and until people see it as humans, rather than men or women, black or white, jew or christian, short or tall, fat or thin, green or orange, people are going to continue to jump to the defense of immorality based soley on undeserving loyalty just because by chance they happened to be born with a similarity.

 

[nostradamas]

I Feel Bad For Her Husband ...

because she's a major drama queen.

20,000 posts in 2 1/2 years ???
You do the math.

And most all of it was flirty, attention-seeking garbage.


Her crime was not in changing screen names, but in really having little or no substance to her posts.

And is that really a crime at all?
I honestly feel really bad for her too.
This place is her LIFE.


What's next?
What if she shaved her head and became "Iz-A-Boy" ???

Ladies and Gentlemen... Introducing... the Britney Spears of the TMF.

I just hope there are no kids involved.

 

[Babbles]

You caught maybe half the point.

I'm not sure, but did you intend to post something chock full of it's own harsh put-downs and half-informed conclusions of your own while chastising others for doing the same? 😕 And none of it is in a PM, by the way.

I didn't think I'd post in this thread again actually, but this all seems pretty ridiculous. By that I mean: Izzy makes a public admission, invites public opinion, gets it, and even the worst of them are so mild she's admittedly surprised herself. Still, anyone with anything disapproving to add gets attacked--by others with different opinions, insults, judgments of their own? 🙄

Anyway, I'll agree it's not a huge deal. It's already in the rear-view mirror for my part. However, if asked, I still say: not cool. Why? Well, suffice to say your experiences are not identical to everyone else's with this. Without saying more, that's just something to think about.

I didn't need to PM, obviously, since unlike you I was making a general statement, not ripping an individual.

In your own haste to pinpoint my supposed shortcoming here, you failed to note that I didn't quote nor did I pinpoint anyone in my own response to the unnecessary nastiness,

which, I disagree, was not "mild" at all, which was dished out earlier in this thread. I responded with the same harshness, however generally,
so as to get the message across; it's not pleasant
nor is it constructive, to read that about yourself.

Of course it's obvious my negative response is directed at whichever insensitive clods posted such material,
and you may feel that's inappropriate,
but unlike yourself
I again did not attack any individuals directly, nor quote them so that their mean-spirited posts would be repeated and cemented further in the thread.

Instead I gave them the opportunity to improve or remove anything they may have regretted saying, if so.

Someone very decent did PM me about this, in fact, so perhaps it would've been nicer for *you yourself to have followed that suggestion,
which you threw back at me publicly.

(Tell me the idiotic post preceding mine here is "mild"... My point was made all over again.
"No-Dramas" up there should hardly be proud of his nasty tabloid-worthy commentary.
NOTE: The vicious post preceding mine is not quoted, nor is the poster's actual name recorded here, much as that is no doubt deserved.

While I may not have all the inside information here, as the friend who PMed me pointed out,

there is never an excuse for this sort of kick-em-while-they're-down gang-banging,

and I really have less than no patience for that nastiness which SHOULD BE LIMITED, if it must be vented, to a PM.

We're all free to disagree, nowhere will you find me implying otherwise.

The statements or arguments should at least be constructive.

I simply have no patience for the idiots I won't name *unless necessary
who seem to take delight in joining or promoting a lynching.

 

[Mitchell]

Izzy, I've always liked you, and considered you a friend. This is how I see it.

First, I think the most important thing for me is that you were honest with your husband. While, we, your friends at the TMF are your online life, your husband is your Real Life. Had you intentionally deceived him, I would have said that would have been wrong. While some here may feel angry and disappointed that you created innocentsexcat to get over something, I look at it as this: People come here for different reasons. I try to be honest about who I am, because I feel if I ever do meet anyone from here, I want them to know me as me. That being said, as we well know, the person claiming to be a hot twenty five year old girl, could really in fact be a seventy year old man. While innocentsexcat may have been a bit annoying, you didnt come on, saying "I'm a seventy five year old man", and actually were a fifty odd year old woman, or vice versa. You did what you wanted to, to accomplish something for yourself. I appreciate your candor, and your reasoning. I think those who are really your friends, like me, while they may have some disappointment, may understand your reasoning. I personally hope that you remain with the TMF as isabeau, ditch the innocentsexcat, and go back to being you. You were and are a very well liked and respected member of this forum.

I'm glad you posted about this. Hopefully, you can continue as the TMF as isabeau, and get back to the business of just enjoying the forum, and your friends.

Take care,
Mitch

 

[kis123]

again no offense, but i don't kno where the woman's choice was ever in dispute. this is a side track alot of women make when talking about a woman's "step out" about women having choices now, and men not being able to handle that.
whenever a woman makes a choice that is obvioulsy morally wrong, they run to the defense of "well men just can't handle woman having a choice!" with all due respect, that's an easy cop out. it couldnt be at all the fact that maybe the choice itself they make is wrong, could it? it couldnt have to do with the fact that maybe one person just doesnt like seeing another person do something dishonest, does it? no, it always has to be about "men" trying to restrict "women" but when women complain about men making those choices, well thats ok, because men have had that choice for how long?
or is the excuse behind this just that because women are so new at making choices for themselves that they're so unused to it that it's obvious theyre going to screw up and that makes it ok?
got news for ya, the women of this generation have had the same choices men have had for most of, if not all of their lives, and if they aren't ready to chose right over wrong, then no amount of millenia of freedom is going to prepare them for that.
or is the women opression thing going to be the argument that always comes forth when trying to explain a woman's lapse in moral judgment? it's kind of funny to be using the fact that women have MORE freedom as an excuse for them to be making WORSE choices, isn't that kind of going against the argument alltogether?
again, this is all a side argument women bring into it when trying to defend eachother. it has nothing to do with "women have more choices today, so thats why they choose these morally bankrupt things!" it has to do with one human being, making a mistake that could hurt another human beign. and until people see it as humans, rather than men or women, black or white, jew or christian, short or tall, fat or thin, green or orange, people are going to continue to jump to the defense of immorality based soley on undeserving loyalty just because by chance they happened to be born with a similarity.

Life is all about choices, good and bad ones. We as women had the power of choice for a couple of decades while men have had it since the beginning of time. It's painfully obvious that time doesn't make any difference based on the horrible choices men have made over the centuries.

With the women's lib movement in the 70s, birth control became easily avialable, abortion became legal, and more women entered the workplace. Put these things together and you've gotta' expect something.

I'm not jumping to the defense of immorality; I told you I didn't think it was right. But it is part of today's reality and there's nothing you or I can do about it but live our lives based on or own morality. We cannot control the actions of others; they're merely exercising their power of choice and free will.

 

[Bohemianne]

<img src="http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3439/catck0.jpg" border="0" alt="" />

^ Just a joke Isabeau...I'm a n00b when you started getting inactive, but I do remember you posted something heart consoling on an only thread where I expressed deep sadness because of the death of someone close. Thanks for that. Carry on and hope you get over this soon. I just hope this thread won't end up in castration... of words. 😱

 

[FeatherFeet]

Life is all about choices, good and bad ones. We as women had the power of choice for a couple of decades while men have had it since the beginning of time. It's painfully obvious that time doesn't make any difference based on the horrible choices men have made over the centuries.

With the women's lib movement in the 70s, birth control became easily avialable, abortion became legal, and more women entered the workplace. Put these things together and you've gotta' expect something.

I'm not jumping to the defense of immorality; I told you I didn't think it was right. But it is part of today's reality and there's nothing you or I can do about it but live our lives based on or own morality. We cannot control the actions of others; they're merely exercising their power of choice and free will.

lol women had choices way way before men did, in matriarcal societies, with the sacred femenine. there were plenty PLENTY of cultures that viewed women as divine and men as their servants. paganism found their route to heaven through women (aka, sex) it wasnt until after christianity, and divinity through a man came about that the idea of men over women took a real foothold in the world. but this is just history, and not the point, and i am only attempting to point out that women have had choices more than just a couple of decades. people tend to forget that the couple hundred years we view as america and the new world, and modernization and all that is really just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

and this is becoming way too femenist for my taste. this isn't a question about women or men, it's a question about morality, as you say. it's not a question of whether or not she has free will, she obviously does. It's a question of whether or not what she chose to do with that free will is wrong or right. No one here is going to condemn her or put her behind bars for the choice (in fact, no one anywhere will do that) but we all have the power to help people make smart choices, not stupid ones, if we can just overlook our own biasies to try to cover our own bad choices and step up and say what is really right and wrong. (and yes, right and wrong are relevant, but the gray area is much less a storm, and far more a few little clouds. people just like to spread it to make it easier to cover themselves)
people help people continue to make bad choices, all my intention is, is to explain what she did was wrong, point out why, and leave it to her to decide whether or not to do it again. that's all i can do, and all i will do.
and all im saying is further complicating it with men/women/black/white and all the movements and differences between people, doesnt help that situation at all. if anything, it hurts it.

 

[kis123]

lol women had choices way way before men did, in matriarcal societies, with the sacred femenine. there were plenty PLENTY of cultures that viewed women as divine and men as their servants. paganism found their route to heaven through women (aka, sex) it wasnt until after christianity, and divinity through a man came about that the idea of men over women took a real foothold in the world. but this is just history, and not the point, and i am only attempting to point out that women have had choices more than just a couple of decades. people tend to forget that the couple hundred years we view as america and the new world, and modernization and all that is really just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

and this is becoming way too femenist for my taste. this isn't a question about women or men, it's a question about morality, as you say. it's not a question of whether or not she has free will, she obviously does. It's a question of whether or not what she chose to do with that free will is wrong or right. No one here is going to condemn her or put her behind bars for the choice (in fact, no one anywhere will do that) but we all have the power to help people make smart choices, not stupid ones, if we can just overlook our own biasies to try to cover our own bad choices and step up and say what is really right and wrong. (and yes, right and wrong are relevant, but the gray area is much less a storm, and far more a few little clouds. people just like to spread it to make it easier to cover themselves)
people help people continue to make bad choices, all my intention is, is to explain what she did was wrong, point out why, and leave it to her to decide whether or not to do it again. that's all i can do, and all i will do.
and all im saying is further complicating it with men/women/black/white and all the movements and differences between people, doesnt help that situation at all. if anything, it hurts it.

I'm not complicating anything; to be exact, my explanations couldn't make it more simple. You're choosing to ignore them because they don't agree with you. The bottom is that it's all about choices; make the right ones and your reap rewards. Reap the wrong ones and reap the reprecussions.

You can't push your morals on anyone else; in today's society, people already know the right from the wrong. They have all the information they need right at their fingertips. They still have to not only make a choice, but deal with the consequences of the choice. How is this complicated to you?

I never told you I agreed with some choices that people make. Basically speaking IMO, human beings are generally selfish creatures who want what they want when they want it. Free will and the power of choice give that individual all the information they need to make good choices, or to deal with the fallout when they make the bad ones.

Sounds crystal clear to me over here.

 

[FeatherFeet]

I'm not complicating anything; to be exact, my explanations couldn't make it more simple. You're choosing to ignore them because they don't agree with you. The bottom is that it's all about choices; make the right ones and your reap rewards. Reap the wrong ones and reap the reprecussions.

You can't push your morals on anyone else; in today's society, people already know the right from the wrong. They have all the information they need right at their fingertips. They still have to not only make a choice, but deal with the consequences of the choice. How is this complicated to you?

I never told you I agreed with some choices that people make. Basically speaking IMO, human beings are generally selfish creatures who want what they want when they want it. Free will and the power of choice give that individual all the information they need to make good choices, or to deal with the fallout when they make the bad ones.

Sounds crystal clear to me over here.

you're complicating it because you're blaming the bad choices on women's issues, saying with all that, what do you expect? and im pointing out that every single group has their own issues, so if you use that to try to justify it, then anyone can do anything wrong anytime they want.

and no one's pushing anything on anyone. it's a discussion, a back and forth, pointing out what's what is all. and no offense, but most people really do not know right and wrong. they think they do, but their selfish wants and desires as you put it, cloud their judgment. they feel something because of an emotion, and they think they are thinking with their mind, about how to go about soemthing, when in actuality, their emotion is making them think thinks they wouldnt normally think. as a result, they do something that seems right to them at the time, which later on, when they pull themselves out of the situation, they will not see as right.
the point of explaining all this, to help clear things up for the person in question, so that next time around, they might notice what's happening when it's happening. because despite popular belief, people do not learn from their mistakes, even if there are consequences, unless it is explained to them, a good portion of the time. quite often, people go back and change something very minor, and make the same mistakes all over again. alot of times, people will never figure it out for themselves, because everyone is always biased when concerning themselves, therefore, an outside party, stating what is and what isnt, in their view, calmly, can be a great deal of help. and if people werent always so "right and wrong is relevant, leave me alone, i didnt ask for your opinion, you can't force your morals on me mister!" and were more open to seriously consider what some people have to say, people might learn things better, people might do things better, and this world just might be a bit of a better place.
it's a pride thing, among other things.

 

[MrPartickler]

splitting hairs

We're all free to disagree...

In the interest of time, let's just say this is the only point at which our opinions converge. (And since we each control little or nothing in this matter anyway, it's probably the only one that matters.)

 

[kis123]

you're complicating it because you're blaming the bad choices on women's issues, saying with all that, what do you expect? and im pointing out that every single group has their own issues, so if you use that to try to justify it, then anyone can do anything wrong anytime they want.

and no one's pushing anything on anyone. it's a discussion, a back and forth, pointing out what's what is all. and no offense, but most people really do not know right and wrong. they think they do, but their selfish wants and desires as you put it, cloud their judgment. they feel something because of an emotion, and they think they are thinking with their mind, about how to go about soemthing, when in actuality, their emotion is making them think thinks they wouldnt normally think. as a result, they do something that seems right to them at the time, which later on, when they pull themselves out of the situation, they will not see as right.
the point of explaining all this, to help clear things up for the person in question, so that next time around, they might notice what's happening when it's happening. because despite popular belief, people do not learn from their mistakes, even if there are consequences, unless it is explained to them, a good portion of the time. quite often, people go back and change something very minor, and make the same mistakes all over again. alot of times, people will never figure it out for themselves, because everyone is always biased when concerning themselves, therefore, an outside party, stating what is and what isnt, in their view, calmly, can be a great deal of help. and if people werent always so "right and wrong is relevant, leave me alone, i didnt ask for your opinion, you can't force your morals on me mister!" and were more open to seriously consider what some people have to say, people might learn things better, people might do things better, and this world just might be a bit of a better place.
it's a pride thing, among other things.

I never said women's issues were the reason; I said they are an issue to consider. When a person makes bad choices, there's really no excuse to me other than wanting what you want to your own possible detriment and other's expense.

Yes, I do believe that people do know the difference between right and wrong. They choose the wrong over the right because they want what they want, not because they don't know better. They're rolling moral dice and hope to beat the odds only to find out those things are in place for a reason. Now deal with the consequences instead of running from or dismissing them.

That's the most important thing about free will and the power of choice. It separates us from animals that do things based on instinct and nature. They don't have a choice than to do what they do and be who they are. That's why you don't keep a wild animal as a pet and call it exotic! They do what comes to them naturally and it could kill someone.

And yes, it is a pride thing because some don't want to submit to the realities of life. instead, they run amok then make excuses to avoid the consequences. I have a name for that type of behavior........cowardice!!!

 

[paracarl44]

Isabeau, you need to get a handle on your life.

You participate here at TMF with over 15,000 posts.

You go as far a making up a sexy signature picture.

You tell the members here of how you dealt with your ailing mother.

One day you tell the story of how you lost your unborn child.

You must realize that you interact with many people here at the forum as this thread has now been viewed by over a thousand people, and is going onto the sixth page.

I know that you have been lurking, and coming up with innocentsexcat just confirms that You Cannot Stay Away from TMF.🙁

Please square away your differences with your husband. Then come back here to TMF and hold your head up high.