Am i as bad as HITLER?

[melanie2]

I use to be a very devout Christian. I use to read the bible and pray every single night before I fell asleep. I use to go to church and feel the holy spirit run through every cell in my body and feel completely exhalted in God the father. But that has all changed. All of it. I have gone through a complete metamorphosis and now I am void of any spiritual or religious beliefs whatsoever (I don't even believe in karma anymore). Despite all this, however, I am still very intrigued by theology of any sorts. Think about it this way... sin can be thought of as an act that separates one from God. Makes sense right? The more one sins, the more that individual is engulfed in worldly desires and pleasure and hedonism and all that great stuff. Now, many Christians I have spoken to believe (this is what I use to believe too) that the mentality of the human being is a mechanism that God created to be our compasses. God wouldn't create a conscience so it could steer someone away from him, that wouldn't make any sense. That guilt, that conscience is one of many links to him. Sinning separates you from him, and guilt brings you back. Now, do you believe that lying to a neighbor about a dinner you don't want to go with them to severs that link between you and God just as much as murdering somebody does? To say you're as bad as Hitler is RIDICULOUSLY absurd, and its one of many religious loopholes that got me so pissed off at Christianity that I just couldn't take it anymore. God is aware of good character. And if he's not, then don't worry because lots of other people are.

major win post here...thank you..it makes much sense to me.

 

[jxavier]

I'm very happy to help! (i love your seinfeld reference by the way)

 

[Slaver123]

Think about it this way... sin can be thought of as an act that separates one from God. Makes sense right? The more one sins, the more that individual is engulfed in worldly desires and pleasure and hedonism and all that great stuff. Now, many Christians I have spoken to believe (this is what I use to believe too) that the mentality of the human being is a mechanism that God created to be our compasses. God wouldn't create a conscience so it could steer someone away from him, that wouldn't make any sense. That guilt, that conscience is one of many links to him. Sinning separates you from him, and guilt brings you back. Now, do you believe that lying to a neighbor about a dinner you don't want to go with them to severs that link between you and God just as much as murdering somebody does? To say you're as bad as Hitler is RIDICULOUSLY absurd, and its one of many religious loopholes that got me so pissed off at Christianity that I just couldn't take it anymore. God is aware of good character. And if he's not, then don't worry because lots of other people are.

Amen! The "all sins are equal" dogma is a dangerous, destructive ERROR on the part of some Fundamentalists. I can't begin to describe how spiritually deadly and life-crippling this false doctrine can be, especially when paired with the dogma of eternal hell-fire. Everyone's less than perfect, but so what? Jesus said people are judged "according to their works", which means it's not the same exact penalty for everyone.

This whole notion makes God/Jesus out to be vindictive, unjust, evil, bureaucratic, and insane; torturing everyone forever for even the slightest sin. Think about it; one little slip-up in your entire life and you're CONDEMNED equally alongside the worst humans who ever lived? It's ridiculous and illogical!

What harm can such a false-doctrine cause? For thirteen years (that's how long I was a "believer") I somehow managed to pray myself to sleep each night KNOWING my dead loved ones were screaming night and day without rest in The Lake Of Fire (liquid fire that burns every inch of their skin, and scalds their throats as they gasp in some breath for the next scream, 24x7 forever!) I couldn't look at a peaceful sunset without thinking of them burning in agony, beyond hope; I couldn't look at a tree without seeing Hell beneath the thin surface of the world, etc etc-all of life was poisoned for me.


Why sugar-coat it? It's like BELIEVING every horror movie you ever saw is for real; It's a self-induced mental illness and it scarred my psyche and wrecked a HUGE chunk of my life. It's taken a LONG time since I stopped believing just to recover to the point where I'm no longer a monster...

Yeah, it's BAD.

 

[likeasong1]

Think about it this way... sin can be thought of as an act that separates one from God. Makes sense right? The more one sins, the more that individual is engulfed in worldly desires and pleasure and hedonism and all that great stuff. Now, many Christians I have spoken to believe (this is what I use to believe too) that the mentality of the human being is a mechanism that God created to be our compasses. God wouldn't create a conscience so it could steer someone away from him, that wouldn't make any sense.

But even compasses are thrown out of whack when a piece of iron is introduced, and if we continue to follow your analogy, that is what temptation is: a piece of iron to misdirect the needle.

 

[likeasong1]

Amen! The "all sins are equal" dogma is a dangerous, destructive ERROR on the part of some Fundamentalists. I can't begin to describe how spiritually deadly and life-crippling this false doctrine can be, especially when paired with the dogma of eternal hell-fire. Everyone's less than perfect, but so what? Jesus said people are judged "according to their works", which means it's not the same exact penalty for everyone.

It is no error, but the purpose of "all sins are equal" is primarily for reminding us that we are ALL imperfect and we are ALL in need of a Savior. Sin is missing the mark. If you're an archer or marksman and miss the bulls-eye even once, your percentage is no longer 100% and can never be 100% again. So too with sin.

This whole notion makes God/Jesus out to be vindictive, unjust, evil, bureaucratic, and insane; torturing everyone forever for even the slightest sin. Think about it; one little slip-up in your entire life and you're CONDEMNED equally alongside the worst humans who ever lived? It's ridiculous and illogical!

First, it's only "illogical" when you set up human logic as infallible. It's more like advanced math... it makes no sense unless you can first grasp algebra and geometry. Second, God is just and good, and that is why He demands the same from us. "Be holy as I am holy." Third, this is also completely absent of the good news of grace and salvation from Jesus Christ. As the hymn rightly praises such grace: "The vilest offender who truly believes/That moment from Jesus a pardon receives."

What harm can such a false-doctrine cause? For thirteen years (that's how long I was a "believer") I somehow managed to pray myself to sleep each night KNOWING my dead loved ones were screaming night and day without rest in The Lake Of Fire (liquid fire that burns every inch of their skin, and scalds their throats as they gasp in some breath for the next scream, 24x7 forever!) I couldn't look at a peaceful sunset without thinking of them burning in agony, beyond hope; I couldn't look at a tree without seeing Hell beneath the thin surface of the world, etc etc-all of life was poisoned for me.


Why sugar-coat it? It's like BELIEVING every horror movie you ever saw is for real; It's a self-induced mental illness and it scarred my psyche and wrecked a HUGE chunk of my life. It's taken a LONG time since I stopped believing just to recover to the point where I'm no longer a monster...

Yeah, it's BAD.

Wow... just wow. I don't know what denomination you'd held to, but I think you severely missed a good portion of their teaching. No, you can't do anything about those who've died and now face the wrath of God, but I would also say it's probably no longer for you to worry about, much less to the point of completely fixated obsession, as you were doing. Give it up to God and let Him handle it. Furthermore, it once again denies the power of grace and salvation through Christ. Next, it also cheapens the beauty of God's creation. God saw His creation and saw that it was good. If God can see a sunset or a tree and see it as good, why shouldn't you appreciate the beauty of His handiwork as well? Let's not deny it: God is just, but He is also loving. The two are not mutually exclusive, and He does not want you to live your life in the kind of fear that only manifests itself as crippling cowardice. It not only insults Him by making Him out to be nothing but a big meanie (I have friends who refer to Him as "Sky Bully"), but it also debilitates your potential and capacity for doing His work for His kingdom. Yeah, there may be a mental illness involved here, but I'm fairly certain that it's not that of the dogma here.

 

[Slaver123]

Wow... just wow. I don't know what denomination you'd held to, but I think you severely missed a good portion of their teaching. No, you can't do anything about those who've died and now face the wrath of God, but I would also say it's probably no longer for you to worry about, much less to the point of completely fixated obsession, as you were doing. Give it up to God and let Him handle it. Furthermore, it once again denies the power of grace and salvation through Christ. Next, it also cheapens the beauty of God's creation. God saw His creation and saw that it was good. If God can see a sunset or a tree and see it as good, why shouldn't you appreciate the beauty of His handiwork as well? Let's not deny it: God is just, but He is also loving. The two are not mutually exclusive, and He does not want you to live your life in the kind of fear that only manifests itself as crippling cowardice. It not only insults Him by making Him out to be nothing but a big meanie (I have friends who refer to Him as "Sky Bully"), but it also debilitates your potential and capacity for doing His work for His kingdom. Yeah, there may be a mental illness involved here, but I'm fairly certain that it's not that of the dogma here.

\

Sure, the whole core of such preaching is that Christ wants to save us from damnation- but that doesn't alter the flip-side which is He'll pour out His eternal wrath FOREVER on those who don't accept Christ exactly as the church specifies. I couldn't live with this. If there really are legions of lost souls feeling real physical agony day and night forever without any hope of death or release, that really DOES suck the life and beauty out of all creation. It'd be like stepping out into a beautiful Spring morning in the town of Auschwitz in 1944- could you savor the sunrise and the flowers knowing that just behind the barbed-wire on the horizon thousands of starving prisoners were being worked to death and tortured? Yet this insane religion would have us condition ourselves to accept that sort of thing.

The problem with eternal damnation is that it's WAY out of proportion with the sins that were committed. Treating all sins as equally bad is a recipe for injustice. It'd be like the paradise planet on Star Trek (Next Generation) where EVERY offense is punishable by death, no matter how minor, even for children. But we're not talking about mere death here, we're talking about unending agony and desparation.

We're imperfect- once we're "saved" we're STILL imperfect (a lot of believers struggle with that every day) But mere imperfection does NOT warrant infinite punishment- that's insane, illogical, and perhaps blasphemous. In place of a loving merciful Creator these false doctrines erect an idol 10,000 times more gruesome than Molech (from the OT) "Sky Bully" doesn't even BEGIN to describe the horrific injustice of it. God's judgement is supposed to be FAIR- that's where the doctrine of eternal hell or "all sin is equal" go astray.

 

[likeasong1]

Sure, the whole core of such preaching is that Christ wants to save us from damnation- but that doesn't alter the flip-side which is He'll pour out His eternal wrath FOREVER on those who don't accept Christ exactly as the church specifies. I couldn't live with this. If there really are legions of lost souls feeling real physical agony day and night forever without any hope of death or release, that really DOES suck the life and beauty out of all creation. It'd be like stepping out into a beautiful Spring morning in the town of Auschwitz in 1944- could you savor the sunrise and the flowers knowing that just behind the barbed-wire on the horizon thousands of starving prisoners were being worked to death and tortured? Yet this insane religion would have us condition ourselves to accept that sort of thing.

And that's why we're called to bring in the lost souls, so that they don't have to experience damnation. And if they don't accept, then that is their choice. It's not cold and callousness, it's just the realization that there's nothing else you can do. Yes, it is sad, but when you have something infinitely better to look forward to, dwelling on the negative is counterproductive. It doesn't make you any less compassionate, just gives you a different and better perspective on it.

The problem with eternal damnation is that it's WAY out of proportion with the sins that were committed. Treating all sins as equally bad is a recipe for injustice. It'd be like the paradise planet on Star Trek (Next Generation) where EVERY offense is punishable by death, no matter how minor, even for children. But we're not talking about mere death here, we're talking about unending agony and desparation.

And if you read Dante's "Inferno", you'll find a depiction where the punishment fits the crime. Now, we don't know what eternal damnation will be like. Only that it lasts forever, and that it is separation from God. Sin is us telling God we want to be apart from Him, and eternal punishment is God telling us, "You may have your wish." Just about everything else is speculation and artistic license accumulated over the years.

We're imperfect- once we're "saved" we're STILL imperfect (a lot of believers struggle with that every day) But mere imperfection does NOT warrant infinite punishment- that's insane, illogical, and perhaps blasphemous. In place of a loving merciful Creator these false doctrines erect an idol 10,000 times more gruesome than Molech (from the OT) "Sky Bully" doesn't even BEGIN to describe the horrific injustice of it. God's judgement is supposed to be FAIR- that's where the doctrine of eternal hell or "all sin is equal" go astray.

And who are you to determine what constitutes fair? What right do you have to be the arbiter and decider of justice? Is the universe of your creation? Demanding that God play by your rules and definitions makes God a God not at all; it attempts to set yourself up as divine, and if you yourself admit to being imperfect, then THAT is truly insane, illogical, and indeed blasphemous. We are still imperfect even after becoming saved, but are still covered by the blood of Christ. That is what saves us. For that which is imperfect to cast judgment upon the divine by using an admittedly imperfect measuring stick is insane, illogical and blasphemous, and furthermore nullifies your very comparison of God to Molech or any concept of "sky bully", for how can the imperfect say what is supposed to be FAIR, when you have an imperfect grasp of what even begins to constitute fair? That is where you go astray.

 

[Mash]

And who are you to determine what constitutes fair? What right do you have to be the arbiter and decider of justice? Is the universe of your creation? Demanding that God play by your rules and definitions makes God a God not at all; it attempts to set yourself up as divine, and if you yourself admit to being imperfect, then THAT is truly insane, illogical, and indeed blasphemous. We are still imperfect even after becoming saved, but are still covered by the blood of Christ. That is what saves us. For that which is imperfect to cast judgment upon the divine by using an admittedly imperfect measuring stick is insane, illogical and blasphemous, and furthermore nullifies your very comparison of God to Molech or any concept of "sky bully", for how can the imperfect say what is supposed to be FAIR, when you have an imperfect grasp of what even begins to constitute fair? That is where you go astray.

Now, this may seem a bit crude, and maybe a bit childish, but any God who says, "Worship me or be cast into an eternal pit of hell and damnation" reminds me of my 13 year old sister throwing a fit.

I solemnly refuse to worship any god. Regardless of whether they do or don't exist, I would still refuse to worship them; they've simply given me no reason to. The Earth that we live on now was called into existence by the force of Gravity, and my broken toe two years ago was taken care of by a Doctor. I would be more willing to worship either of those two thing simply because they have helped me, and have taken measure to make my life either possible, or monumentally less annoying.

The fact that some mystical being floating in some indeterminable location wants to throw me in a pit of fire because I won't get on one knee and kiss his holy ass is reason enough for me to be an atheist.

 

[likeasong1]

Now, this may seem a bit crude, and maybe a bit childish, but any God who says, "Worship me or be cast into an eternal pit of hell and damnation" reminds me of my 13 year old sister throwing a fit.

I solemnly refuse to worship any god. Regardless of whether they do or don't exist, I would still refuse to worship them; they've simply given me no reason to. The Earth that we live on now was called into existence by the force of Gravity, and my broken toe two years ago was taken care of by a Doctor. I would be more willing to worship either of those two thing simply because they have helped me, and have taken measure to make my life either possible, or monumentally less annoying.

The fact that some mystical being floating in some indeterminable location wants to throw me in a pit of fire because I won't get on one knee and kiss his holy ass is reason enough for me to be an atheist.

That's just a completely inaccurate perspective of God. He doesn't demand worship because of a colossal inferiority complex; He does so because he knows that it will ultimately bring us joy to do so. It's very simple: be with Him, or be without Him. To be with Him will be so awe-inspiring that it will educe the praise from our lips and the worship from our lives. To be without Him will be absolute separation, which will by its very nature be total and utter agony. We currently live in a state of "common grace" where, to paraphrase the Scripture, He makes the sun shine on the just and the unjust alike. Eventually, that won't be the case. God isn't a tyrannical despot whose aim is establish dominion and keep the serfs in their place; He's a loving father who sets up boundaries because He loves His children.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to remain civil in this discussion, and I hope you have found me the same. I get your objections, I really do, but in the end, God has done so much for my life that I really have no complaint against Him. Strange as it sounds, most of my friends are atheists, and they respect my views, as I do theirs since I can't disprove them anymore than they can disprove me. They don't consider me "mentally ill" for having faith, and I don't treat them as being in a state of denial either.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

My husband believes all sins are equal

Then he needs to look up the words "mitigating circumstances".

 

[melanie2]

hey all i asked was whether or not i'm as bad as HItler lol...

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European swallow, that's my point.

 

[Carnivore]

Can you guys move the debate on the universal overmind to another thread? Its bad enough that caplock Hitler is summoned to the main page every time, and then there's a thread jack. I've never liked it, it usually becomes a secular devil reference instead of viewing that time period as a human tragedy. Best to start a new thread: Einstein said rocks have consciousness! Discuss! And then Mash & Purple can smackdown pedi.

/figured I could just say whatever I felt like saying, looking at the devolution of the thread. If devolution is a word...

 

[Slaver123]

hey all i asked was whether or not i'm as bad as HItler lol...

Absolutely not! You are nowhere NEAR as bad as The Worst Tyrant In History! Why would you think you are? (Sorry for my long rants, but this topic opened The Big Can Of Worms for me...)

I saw a good bumper sticker; "If they can make you believe an absurdity, they can make you commit an atrocity"

Well, the idea that your paltry little sins (or mine) are equal to mass murder, turning Germany into a giant prison for over a decade, and starting the biggest war in History- it's an ABSURDITY to think you're that bad. The only 'atrocity' you're likely to commit is like the 'atrocities' I committed against myself and my own life for so long by believing absurd doctrines like this one.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

Didn't Mao Ze Dong kill over 50,000,000?

Yeah, there is always that need to put Hitler at the top as the absolute Anti-Christ of all dictators. There are others who have killed more people. There are others who killed with a greater lack of understanding of the basic mores of humanity. Hitler just has the better press because he did it to Westerners in the Western world. I'd put 1.7 million Cambodian murdering Pol Pot up there with Mao on the list of despicable human beings. Josef Stalin, too, our great ally in the war was an incomprehensible nutcase who through his own paranoia probably prolonged the war by assassinating his own top generals and then going on murderous spree of pogroms and 5 year plans.

So really there are many candidates for that title. And no Izzy, you are nowhere near comparable to ANY of them.

 

[Mash]

Not to quote myself buuuut...

However, you people are only thinking about relatively recent history. Look back a bit further, and suddenly 6 million deaths seems quite small.

 

[stroker]

Drop a smart bomb from 20,000 feet on a peasant village and youre a hero in the war against terror , plant a bomb in a western govt building and youre an evil murding coward. Revolt against a communist or islamic state youre a freedom fighter, revolt against one of our client fascist hell holes and youre a terrorist . any atrocity can be excused so long as we are the ones doing it.Good and evil have nothging to do with it its just a question of whos side youre on.

 

[MistressValerie1]

Can you guys move the debate on the universal overmind to another thread? Its bad enough that caplock Hitler is summoned to the main page every time, and then there's a thread jack. I've never liked it, it usually becomes a secular devil reference instead of viewing that time period as a human tragedy. Best to start a new thread: Einstein said rocks have consciousness! Discuss! And then Mash & Purple can smackdown pedi.

/figured I could just say whatever I felt like saying, looking at the devolution of the thread. If devolution is a word...

I moved the off-topic discussion to a new thread called Science and Religion. If I missed any posts, please let me know.

 

[Adam Tickles]

x

Yh coz ur as bad as an arsehole who killed millions ......
🙂😢huhwub

 

[melanie2]

Yh coz ur as bad as an arsehole who killed millions ......
🙂😢huhwub

well i was actually wondering if you all felt that all sins are equal..

and @Slaver thanks for that post..

 

[likeasong1]

Well, the idea that your paltry little sins (or mine) are equal to mass murder, turning Germany into a giant prison for over a decade, and starting the biggest war in History- it's an ABSURDITY to think you're that bad. The only 'atrocity' you're likely to commit is like the 'atrocities' I committed against myself and my own life for so long by believing absurd doctrines like this one.

So all those who believed such doctrines and never committed an atrocity on the scale that you would hold in order to be called an "atrocity" were... what, time bombs that were diffused by death before they had a chance to go off?

Given what your previously held beliefs did to you, as you claim, I'd say you're better off (in this life anyway) not being religious. The way you were going, you probably would have lost it and given the rest of us, who practice everyday and try to do good in the world around us, additional bad press. And that's not even taking into account the media paradigm of "If it bleeds, it leads."

 

[Slaver123]

Given what your previously held beliefs did to you, as you claim, I'd say you're better off (in this life anyway) not being religious. The way you were going, you probably would have lost it and given the rest of us, who practice everyday and try to do good in the world around us, additional bad press. And that's not even taking into account the media paradigm of "If it bleeds, it leads."

I gave Christianity plenty of "bad press" back then with my dogmatic legalism. I have a more sensible 'grown-up' faith now, after a period of total unbelief.