Am I wrong?

[Kalamos]

I'm sorry man I don't really understand why how she found out would have anything to do with whether what he was doing was wrong or not.

It is still wrong, but now we have shades of grey. Shades of right and wrong.
Explanations, excuses, apologies all revolve around those shades.

I know I'm sounding like a jerk: you're relating your life, and I dissect it as if it were an alien organism.
I'm just trying to keep a level head.
I cannot impose without asking questions.

For example, I find it interesting that he admitted a third woman.
Actually, he admitted the whole thing without being caught in the act.
He could have denied everything - unless his wife had actually checked his logs.
Also, the involved women seemed a bit naive to me: they were quite ready to spill the bag on the wife, without thinking of the consequences.

Maybe that's why he felt ok about it: maybe he wasn't really serious about it despite the 3 months thing.
I'm not defending him, mind you.
It's just that I don't know the involved people, I don't know the details, I don't know the chat logs.
I can't point my finger and start lecturing strangers on morality.

I can only lend some support, and hope you guys sort it out for the better.

 

[HalfElven]

I understand where your coming from but I think your missing the point of my question. Put aside my cousin and her husband, I only told you about them to explain why I was asking the question. That question being, Is it cheating when any husband/wife is having cybersex behind their spouses back?

I've heard people say they did it because they wasn't getting it from their spouse, or because their was problems in the marriage or because their afraid to tell their spouse. I'm sorry, but to me those all sound like excuses to explain something you know is wrong. In the end, for me at least I guess it comes down to a trust issue cause if their not honest about that what else haven't they been honest about?

 

[Kalamos]

I understand where your coming from but I think your missing the point of my question.

Nope, I haven't answered because I don't have a yes/no answer to give.
Most people here might have good reasons for answering either way.

Maybe one risked losing his partner, so he might consider the whole idea of cheating abhorrent. The fear of loss alone made him extremely wary of anything that could put marriage in jeopardy.
On the other hand, somebody could live through dire straights and strained relationships, and use cybersex as a pressure valve, making family life more bearable for all.

Seriously, I can't give one answer that works for everybody.
You have the principle. Then you have the real people.
My opinion is just a dime in a growing pile of coins.

That question being, Is it cheating when any husband/wife is having cybersex behind their spouses back?

Maybe. It cannot be compared to all out adultery, though.
It's easier to forgive, when nobody else knows how your wife smells or tastes like.

In the end, for me at least I guess it comes down to a trust issue cause if their not honest about that what else haven't they been honest about?

I don't know.
Would you rather live in a lie, and be happy, or being told the truth and see your dream world come apart?
What if you knew it was a lie all along, and just wanted to believe it?
What if honesty borders bluntness and begins making your life miserable?

Besides, ppl lie for many reasons.
Life is no Yes/No issue.

 

[HalfElven]

I don't know.
Would you rather live in a lie, and be happy, or being told the truth and see your dream world come apart?
What if you knew it was a lie all along, and just wanted to believe it?
What if honesty borders bluntness and begins making your life miserable?

Besides, ppl lie for many reasons.
Life is no Yes/No issue.[/QUOTE]

I don't know either, but if your living a lie to be happy then isn't the happieness a lie too, and when the truth comes out which it usually does no matter how hard you try to hide it then your world not only comes apart it has a tendency to explode.
If you knew it was a lie but went along with it any, then that was your choice to live that way.
Being honest, and being blunt are usually two different things and dishonesty can make life just as miserable.

Yes there are times when it's the better part of valor to not admit the truth because you could hurt someone's feelings, when she askes if those pants or that dress makes her look fat, when she asks how the dinner she just made tastes, things like that I have no problem with fudging the truth.
Your right Life isn't a Yes/No issue but there are certain things in life that are
Do you love her/him, Are you honest with him/her, Can He/She trust you, Those my friend are Yes/No Issues!

 

[Kalamos]

I don't know either, but if your living a lie to be happy then isn't the happieness a lie too,

I don't know. It's case by case.
We can't be sure truth is bound to come out. People do not know it all.
And, as needlessly complicated as it might seem, some couples would rather live a collective lie for the sake of peace - and turn a blind eye over cheating as long as family seems perfect to the casual eye.
I'm not saying that it's ok or it works for you.
I'm just relating things as I've seen or heard them.

Being honest, and being blunt are usually two different things and dishonesty can make life just as miserable.

Can. That's my point. Your original question was about "it is" or "it is not".
Now you are contemplating hues and shades of "could" and "might".
Case by case.

Your right Life isn't a Yes/No issue but there are certain things in life that are
Do you love her/him, Are you honest with him/her, Can He/She trust you, Those my friend are Yes/No Issues!

Ah, wouldn't I love to have an answer for those.
Maybe you love her but hate her habits.
Maybe you are lonely, and you settled for her, but you're not really satisfied.
Maybe you love her out of gratitude, because she loves you better.

And what about trust and honesty?
Maybe you know she is a complete heartless b*tch, yet she makes your blood go lava-hot with lust. Lust is an aspect of love.
You can't help but love her, even if you know she cannot be trusted.
Or you're a cheat, but you still love her despite your own countless affairs.
You both would rather turn a blind eye, for the sake of surface respect.

What about friends?
Maybe they make you laugh, but you know you can't trust them with your car or money because they are going to mess up.
Or maybe they are bitter to the core, yet you would blindly trust them with your own life because you know they are sour but committed.
What is a friend, somebody you rely in the time of need, or somebody you spend quality time with?
Which is which? Maybe a bit of both?

...

No, sorry.
As you see I cannot think of those as Yes/No issues.
I'm not ready for Binary. Yet.

 

[HalfElven]

Ah, wouldn't I love to have an answer for those.
Maybe you love her but hate her habits.
Maybe you are lonely, and you settled for her, but you're not really satisfied.
Maybe you love her out of gratitude, because she loves you better.

But that still fits with what I said, Yes you love her No she's not perfect
No you don't love her you were just lonley
Yes you love her even if her love is deeper than yours.


And what about trust and honesty?
Maybe you know she is a complete heartless b*tch, yet she makes your blood go lava-hot with lust. Lust is an aspect of love.
You can't help but love her, even if you know she cannot be trusted.
Or you're a cheat, but you still love her despite your own countless affairs.
You both would rather turn a blind eye, for the sake of surface respect.

I'm sorry love and lust are two totally different things and any relationship based on only lust is doomed no matter how hard you try.
And again Yes you love her No she can't be trusted
Yes you love her No you can't be trusted and if your both turning a blind eye, then that your choice.


What about friends?
Maybe they make you laugh, but you know you can't trust them with your car or money because they are going to mess up.
Or maybe they are bitter to the core, yet you would blindly trust them with your own life because you know they are sour but committed.
What is a friend, somebody you rely in the time of need, or somebody you spend quality time with?
Which is which? Maybe a bit of both?

Yes you love/care about them No they can't be trusted
No you don't really care for them Yes they can be trusted
As to What a friend is, for my own part at least I believe a friend is someone who's there for you whether you need them or not. If that makes any sense.
...

No, sorry.
As you see I cannot think of those as Yes/No issues.
I'm not ready for Binary. Yet.[/QUOTE]


We'll probably never agree on this subject Kalamos, but it's nice to have a conversation with someone who doesn't get angry when the other person doesn't see it from there point of view. Take care,

 

[Kalamos]

We'll probably never agree on this subject Kalamos, but it's nice to have a conversation with someone who doesn't get angry when the other person doesn't see it from there point of view.

Why on earth would one want to get angry? 🙂
We are not disagreeing. We are just relating our experiences, experiences that shaped our outlook on life.

I found out that sometimes being too truthful isn't worth it.
People are not going to say thanks for bursting their bubble.
Sometimes they'd rather live a happy lie - and who am I to interfer?
But that's my set of experiences. Not a general rule for everybody to live by.

The point I'd like to stress is, I tend to value the single case over the general principle.
It is not about relativism.
It is about knowing your people well enough.
What might help one, might as well hurt another.

That's why I don't usually give absolute yes/no answers.
And I wouldn't ask absolute yes/no questions, as well.

 

[DarthGrinn]

Sorry, in a hurry and I want to add my 2 cents. The way I see it; if a person is making love to another, but is thinking about somebody else while doing so... I consider that cheating.

I also consider it cheating to fantasize about another person while married/in a relationship. But that's just me. So, yes; I consider having cybersex with another person (whether its paid or for free) to be cheating. It's pretty black and white to me.

 

[Violetta]

I personally don't believe someone can be held accountable for what they think in such a light. There is, in my mind, absolutely nothing wrong about fantasizing about someone when you're married, because that's all they are is fantasies. It's a short step from that thinking to say no married person should be allowed to view material at this forum. Because doing so would mean they're fantasizing about an intimate situation with someone else. They should only be allowed to think]/i] about such an encounter with their spouse. The difference comes with the willpower to resist giving into such fantasies and acting on them in the real world.

Cybersex is a similar matter. In the same way as viewing porn, it's not real. But in this case, it is sharing an intimacy with another individual. That's where it gets sticky. To what extent is it considered cheating if there's no physical contact? If I had a boyfriend or girlfriend and I found out they cybered with someone (assuming we'd agreed not to do that), then I'd be a bit bothered by it, but I'd also want to know what they were getting out of it that I wasn't giving. Which may be because I've been in a relationship where my partner nearly refused to take my desires into consideration, and cybering started to look a bit inviting as a release. If they went out and slept with someone else, however? No second chances. I'd leave them. And I would expect the same if I ever showed that sort weakness in my loyalty and commitment.

If cybering is considered in the same light as sleeping with the neighbor's wife, then is looking at porn considered rape? A bit extreme, but it's the same lust and fantasizing as cybering, only this time the object of that desire isn't concenting.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending people having cybersex in a relationship without their partner knowing. But cybersex itself does not, to me, indicate a willful desire to harm their partner, as actual cheating would. Cybersex in such a context would best be seen as an indication of dissatisfaction. That something exists online that a person can't get with their partner. More cyber isn't the answer, though. Talking about what's missing is. And if it's needed, councelling is the answer, too.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Kalamos]

Sorry, in a hurry and I want to add my 2 cents. The way I see it; if a person is making love to another, but is thinking about somebody else while doing so... I consider that cheating.

That is interesting.
Would you mind the question?
What would answer if somebody asked about your stance on divorce?

😉

 

[somebody231]

After this reply some people might hate me, but here goes...

First of all I'm not married and don't have a girlfriend yet. Secondly although I think it's cheating, I also think it's not.

Why would you have cybersex with someone if you were satisfied at home?

^^Because the hunger of man is forever growing. Even if you'd have the best thing in the world, you'd hunger for more and different stuff. Atleast that's my opinion.

I would not be upset if I found my girlfriend (don't have one, but let's pretend) was looking at porn and "wanking". The same goes for flirting and chatting. The cyber-sex is still a bit far off I think... But yea I have to add that there are so many good looking women out there, so one must not just think: "No I can't like any other girl's body or looks. I can't... It's cheating".
I think it's foolish, since we're just humen... Creatures as for example lions.
Although a lion would consider his lioness "his posession" and the other way around, he would still look at other lionesses too.

I'm so sorry for not believing in the "there is only one for me" -idea. I'd bet that every person would love millions of people from their looks. I mean people from different countries too.

I'm so sorry, but that's just how I feel. I still would honor and do everything I could to show my girlfriend her value, her meaningfulness, but I would not lie saying stuff like "you're the only one I look at". I would truly do my best to make her feel good and I would love to show my love to her. I'm mostly a romantic, but that's just the darker side of me... I mean that there isn't just "that one person right for you, whom you only should visually like and lust".

 

[DarthGrinn]

That is interesting.
Would you mind the question?
What would answer if somebody asked about your stance on divorce?

😉

lol well although I suspect that you are implying that I wouldn't last very long in a marriage, with such high standards; let me give you my personal beliefs on the matter anyway, then explain myself further. (For the record, nope I'm not married).

Divorce, the way I see it, can be necessary. And if both parties have tried their best to work their problems out; and have come to the conclusion that they'll never work it out, and will end up only making each other more miserable if they stayed together, then divorce may very well be the solution.

It isn't pretty; but it can be better than a lifetime of misery for everybody involved.

Now, it may appear that I hold myself to a ridiculously high standard; I'm not saying I can promise myself that I'll be able to maintain it, but still, I'm going to try. Consider it a spiritual exercise if you will. I was asked of my personal opinion, and I've given them based upon my own spiritual beliefs.

So ya, I consider cybering with other people (while in a relationship) to be cheating; but is it actually "adultery"? IMO (and Vlad, correct me if I'm wrong), but not in the legal sense of the word. Although in this day and age, who knows how the laws may change if it is proving to be a real social problem; but the way I see it: No actual physical penetration, no adultery case...

So, if cybering isn't adultery; then it's cool, right? IMO no, it isn't. Just because something is not illegal, doesn't make it right. We still have personal laws (read: morals) that we run our lives by; these may vary from person to person, depending on their philosophies and beliefs, but I'd like to think that in the end of the day, we can all agree that hurting people is wrong.

We may not all agree that there is a universal truth or whatever; but I think it’s a pretty safe bet that if what we are doing is harming others (physically, mentally, emotionally) and causes chaos and unrest in our household, then it is wrong and should be avoided.

So ya my saying something like "fantasizing about J.Lo while your getting busy with the wifey is mental adultery" may sound a lil whacky to you; but that’s just my way of keeping myself loyal to the one I love, physically, mentally and spiritually. Lord knows the mind will wander on its own, and heck maybe the wifey and I will allow one another such indulgences every now and then…

To each his own tho…

EDIT to re-focus (so you don't judge my reply based upon how the thread has developed): My answer is to the OP's question of a man who is leaving his wife in bed as he engage in cybersex with other women online, behind her back and without her knoweldge.

The way I see it, I wouldn't want my wife ditching me to have some "I put on my robe and my wizard hat" action with some guy in Netherlands 😛 while I lay in bed waitin for her and wonderin' whats goin on. Nor would I like to come home, all juiced up and ready for some quality time, only to find my wife curled up with her laptop, satisfied and ready to go to bed... That would really suck imo.

 

[aurora51501]

i can only speak from my own experience. i was dating this guy and even though we wern't "exclusive" i found out he was screwing his ex behind my back. so yeah i'd say it's cheating. if he had to hide it from her it's totally cheating wether paying for it, just happened to meet someone whatever. just the fact that he had to hide it makes it wrong in my book. and my sympathies to your cousin. i'd want to kick his ass too.

 

[Kalamos]

lol well although I suspect that you are implying that I wouldn't last very long in a marriage, with such high standards

Maybe *she* wouldn't last long.
One might point out that too rigid sometimes becomes brittle.
Some others might say that you can't judge people by morals alone.

Me? I don't usually judge people.
Especially people I don't know well.
I try to experience life first-hand, before committing myself to some ideal.
If I cannot live it, I'll try and watch things from several points of view, taking the roles of all involved parties.
That's my usual way of tackling issues: what if, so then.

My answer is to the OP's question of a man who is leaving his wife in bed as he engage in cybersex with other women online, behind her back and without her knoweldge.

Actually, the OP's question was about a working couple.
They had overlapping shifts, and they did extra work.
Doesn't seem like the typical "man in bed", "woman having fun at the laptop" affaire.

Seems, from the scant few infos we could gather, more like a case of "we are both overworked, and we don't have time for love and sex anymore".
But I don't know, so it's just wild guessing, so far.

...

Sometimes even divorce isn't viable: rents, children, assorted probs.
Sometimes people have to clench teeth, and live under the same roof, even if they barely stand each other.

What's my point?
I would weigh the pro's and con's, before doing something final.
Morals alone are cold comfort, when you or your partner screw up, and fail to reconcile.

...

So, was it cheating? I say it is not the real point.
The point is: can they live through it? Was it just a lapse, or something worse?
Can people throw their marriage down the sink, on principles alone?
What does draw the line?
Does cybering?
Does life allow for a second chance?
Who is cheating whom?
The one partner who is never home? Or the other who can't wait anymore?
Did they have a choice? Or did job suck up all their free time, paving the way for problems?

Too many questions.
I'm boring my own greaves off.

 

[morgandee]

tl;dr

 

[DarthGrinn]

Maybe *she* wouldn't last long.
One might point out that too rigid sometimes becomes brittle.
Some others might say that you can't judge people by morals alone.

Well I hope I didn't come off as judgmental. If so, I apologize. I was only providing my opinions, as requested by the OP. I never offered advice or judged anybody.

I agree. Rigidity is not good at all; I could spit a lil philosophy on the nature of the relationship between man and woman; but then I'd be going way off topic, and come off as a Dr. Phil. I find it amazing though, how far the sign of a little compromise can go; whether or not this applies to the OP's situation or not, is up to him to decide.

However, I don't think it's rigid to set rules and boundaries; it's not too much to ask my gf not to cyber with another guy behind my back. I dunno, maybe it is? But if so, then at least I would like to be given a chance to satisfy her before she decides that it should be somebody else's duty. Maybe she has already given me that last chance time and time again…?

I also agree that people make mistakes. The way I see it, we are all destined to screw up every now and then, its part of our human nature. I agree that we should be forgiving, and try our best to work it out.

I don't see anything wrong with morals, spirituality, self-accountability and all that jazz; as long as one doesn’t develop false-pride from it. It’s a big life, and everybody's situation is unique (or not). So in the end, all we can do is try to understand, and offer support to our loved ones, and try to be there for one another.

It sucks not to have free time for your significant other tho. My biggest fear is that my gf is ready to marry, and ends up not being able to wait for me… I could imagine what that kinda stress must feel like on a daily basis, racing home from work, rarely having time to see each other. Must be tough. I hope you guys manage to work it out if that's the case…

 

[Kalamos]

Well I hope I didn't come off as judgmental. If so, I apologize.

I don't know. 🙂
I'm just offering a few optional PoVs on this matter.

However, I don't think it's rigid to set rules and boundaries; it's not too much to ask my gf not to cyber with another guy behind my back.
...
I don't see anything wrong with morals, spirituality, self-accountability and all that jazz; as long as one doesn’t develop false-pride from it.

There is nothing wrong with having a strong spiritual side.
I have a strong spiritual side myself.

The focal point in your post, something I'd like to emphasise is: there is nothing wrong with setting rules.
But you shouldn't enforce them by asking. You could enforce them by respecting them. They call it ruling by example.

So, when you'll find your mate, and you'll show her your love and feelings, if she truly reciprocates, she'll likely learn and respect your boundaries, and accept your quirks and your pace.
By the same rate, when you'll be in love with somebody, you'll probably learn their own rules. Their "heart's geography".
And you'll strive to live by those rules, without being actually asked to do so.

...

They say that when you are deeply in love with somebody, either you dismiss the burden of family life as a sweet task...
Or... you'll simply curse under your breath, and take the good and the bad things, as they comes.


I don't know for sure. I'm just relating things. 😉

 

[DarthGrinn]

The focal point in your post, something I'd like to emphasise is: there is nothing wrong with setting rules.
But you shouldn't enforce them by asking. You could enforce them by respecting them. They call it ruling by example.


They say that when you are deeply in love with somebody, either you dismiss the burden of family life as a sweet task...
Or... you'll simply curse under your breath, and take the good and the bad things, as they comes.

Well, leading (or, ruling as you put it) by example can definitely work; but it doesn't necessarily negate the need to openly communicate your feelings/thoughts on certain matters. I'd say that a healthy balance of both is the ticket. Don't be a nagger, but don't be so quiet that you appear timid; or worse, nonchalant about the relationship.

I made that mistake with my ex, I was too understanding and forgiving to the point where she felt I lacked passion. Sometimes expressing jealousy, or just being pissed over something, is exactly what the relationship needs, and might just be what one's significant other is looking for. I know my gf will occasionally say or do things just to see what kind of reaction she'd get out of me. I do the same sometimes; I guess we all need reassurance every now and then.

 

[Kalamos]

I made that mistake with my ex, I was too understanding and forgiving to the point where she felt I lacked passion.
...
I know my gf will occasionally say or do things just to see what kind of reaction she'd get out of me. I do the same sometimes; I guess we all need reassurance every now and then.

I can understand that.
Being open about one's feelings is a thing - but I'm drawing a fine line between expressing needs, and laying out requests, here.

...

If I may give unsolicited advise, I would stay away from ppl who want to test my mettle, just to see how much I like them.
It is the love equivalent of yanking one's hair to draw attention in.
It doesn't strike me as mature.
Sometimes it can be fun; but on the long run, it can backfire badly.

 

[DarthGrinn]

Well ya, I can definitely see where your comin' from. Requests can get annoying; I've had this happen to me. I hate them because I feel it robs me of the chance to do good on my own accord. But at the same time I can see how a person wouldn't want to relive a bad experience from a prior relationship, or whatever…

Conditions also suck as well, and show a lack of support, willingness to compromise and selfishness imo saying things like : "...well I'm not ever gna do.." or "...as long as you never ask me to..." Major minus points in my book. I would love to put my relationship on autopilot with such restrictions but in the end I know that it just doesn't work that way.

Thanks for the advice. As far as testing mettle is concerned, it happens so rarely that when it does its more or less my gf expressing her childish side. She does it in such a playful way, its kinda cute actually. Yes, its immature, but then again I've grown to know her as a "big baby" when it comes to a lot of things; her being the youngest in a family that dotes on her, I admit that I have my work cut out for me.

But on the flip-side she is a young lady with the softest heart I've ever seen, and she's not afraid to give and receive love. So, seeing that there is a lot of good to her, I can learn to live with the "flaws" and even appreciate them as those little quirks that make being around her interesting.

 

[Kalamos]

So, seeing that there is a lot of good to her, I can learn to live with the "flaws" and even appreciate them as those little quirks that make being around her interesting.

🙂

 

[tickler1799]

Here's my reply to the OP, though admittedly I haven't read many of the responses thus far.

Some people may not consider this cheating, but I don't think defining this as cheating is the real question to ask here. For the record, I think that it *is* cheating, because you mentioned he's been in these cyber relationships for months.

The real center of the problem is that the husband is not sufficiently satisfied with his sexual relationship with his wife. The cause can range from her not putting out enough (go ahead and get mad, I'm nothing if not honest) to him simply having a problem with wanting more than she can give. It is a tell tale sign of a fundamental problem with thier relationship: she is not enough for him.

My ex-wife used to do this, and because I lacked a spine at the time, I let it continute. There is only one possible outcome: he will cheat on her in real life. My ex did this (thus, the ex part) and came up with the most absurd rationalizations for her actions. The simple truth is that she wasn't ready to be married, and wanted more sex with other people before she settled down. This is a common problem among people who get married very young.

My advice: she should leave him immidiately. It's hard, it's painful, it causes a ton of problems, but it solves a larger one: being stuck in a relationship with someone who isn't satisfied with thier life with you.

 

[maskedmaiden]

Well honestly for women the fear isn't always a fear that their spouse will go out and have a physical affair, for most women it's also the fear of their spouse creating an intimate relationship with someone. Sometimes the intimacy of emotions can be worse than the physical. So I do agree that cyber chatting can be a form of cheating, it just depends on the situation.

 

[TheChameleon]

I'm agreeing with Kal, not only cuz he's awesome, but, because... well, it makes sense. If he's hurting her feelings, he shouldn't do it, either way.

 

[DarthGrinn]

Well honestly for women the fear isn't always a fear that their spouse will go out and have a physical affair, for most women it's also the fear of their spouse creating an intimate relationship with someone. Sometimes the intimacy of emotions can be worse than the physical. So I do agree that cyber chatting can be a form of cheating, it just depends on the situation.

I totally agree. As a guy, I'd have the same concerns too...