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'Bush's Illegal War' Questionnaire
- Thread starter BritneySpears
- Start date
Roseblossom
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How?
Well, I'm certainly sick of hollering, foot-stamping temper tantrums and snide name-calling.
areenactor said:
Well, I'm certainly sick of hollering, foot-stamping temper tantrums and snide name-calling.
D
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Re: How?
you too??? damn i thought i was the only one!
gee, aren't you glad that neither you, or i do this type of behavior?
the others could learn from us huh?
steve
Roseblossom said:
you too??? damn i thought i was the only one!
gee, aren't you glad that neither you, or i do this type of behavior?
the others could learn from us huh?
steve
excellent response Hal.
i have to say that i really dislike your shonky prsident senor Bush. no offense, but should we let a functional illiterate fundie christian warmonger run the subtle art of foreign policy? i definitely agreed with the critique of the "if you have a tenant" question. the presuppposition of global ownership is atrociously disgusting. although of course the capitalist system can be said to 'own' the world through indirect means. i know, people call me a commie red. puh-lease! all economic and political systems are in the shit, not just america. however america is the 'shining example' of this abhorrent system. is it any wonder, Arena, that we criticise primarily america when it exemplifies all the worst as well as all the best? we go for extremes, and america has those in abundance. i believe that patriotism is a morally bankrupt concept: racism with more people to hate! however this is not the issue. a true patriot (as far as i conceive it) would be commited to the idea of a country. in fact, he or she would be doing the same as Jimbo, Hal and i do, only more vehemently. anyone who contravenes the ideals of such a great country deserves scorn.
i have to say that i really dislike your shonky prsident senor Bush. no offense, but should we let a functional illiterate fundie christian warmonger run the subtle art of foreign policy? i definitely agreed with the critique of the "if you have a tenant" question. the presuppposition of global ownership is atrociously disgusting. although of course the capitalist system can be said to 'own' the world through indirect means. i know, people call me a commie red. puh-lease! all economic and political systems are in the shit, not just america. however america is the 'shining example' of this abhorrent system. is it any wonder, Arena, that we criticise primarily america when it exemplifies all the worst as well as all the best? we go for extremes, and america has those in abundance. i believe that patriotism is a morally bankrupt concept: racism with more people to hate! however this is not the issue. a true patriot (as far as i conceive it) would be commited to the idea of a country. in fact, he or she would be doing the same as Jimbo, Hal and i do, only more vehemently. anyone who contravenes the ideals of such a great country deserves scorn.
D
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thank you aussiemonkey
for saying america is such a great country. believe me, i do scorn those that do nothing but tear down this wonderull place.
america is not just a country/political entity. america is an idea/ideal. it is a belief system. we are different from anyother country. we are the only nation state, that has in it's laws, a regress for it's states to actually with draw from the union! (the civil war not withstanding).
if we have internal problems, it is because we also have so many freedoms, and divergent people. all here are free to espouse their ideas, and to knock the ideas of others. we have a majority rule system, but it is heavily offset by protections of the minority, right in our constitution. the fact that we are a capitalist system, is because that is one of the top reasons we fought for our freedom from the british crown rule. the ability to earn all that we can, is no less important to us than our freedom of speach. notice the use of the term earn. that is one place where our society is boloxed up. we think nothing of a sports figure making millions a year for playing kid games. but let a skilled neuro surgon make half a million a year saving peoples lives, and we have an entire political party, and various others screaming for government intervention, and controls!
i do love my country aussie. and the same as i love my children, when someone, anyone, attacks either, i respond with anger. esp. if the attacker never remits, and never has anything possitive to say, or offer a better solution.
you are free to dislike MY president, and if you lived here you would be free to say the same things that you feel safe in saying from thousands of miles away. but i must say in response, your opinion of president bush is so off base ,as to be laughable. when you go to the same schools, and pull the same grades ,then come back and talk to me.
steve
p.s. see, i can be calm, and reasonable.
for saying america is such a great country. believe me, i do scorn those that do nothing but tear down this wonderull place.
america is not just a country/political entity. america is an idea/ideal. it is a belief system. we are different from anyother country. we are the only nation state, that has in it's laws, a regress for it's states to actually with draw from the union! (the civil war not withstanding).
if we have internal problems, it is because we also have so many freedoms, and divergent people. all here are free to espouse their ideas, and to knock the ideas of others. we have a majority rule system, but it is heavily offset by protections of the minority, right in our constitution. the fact that we are a capitalist system, is because that is one of the top reasons we fought for our freedom from the british crown rule. the ability to earn all that we can, is no less important to us than our freedom of speach. notice the use of the term earn. that is one place where our society is boloxed up. we think nothing of a sports figure making millions a year for playing kid games. but let a skilled neuro surgon make half a million a year saving peoples lives, and we have an entire political party, and various others screaming for government intervention, and controls!
i do love my country aussie. and the same as i love my children, when someone, anyone, attacks either, i respond with anger. esp. if the attacker never remits, and never has anything possitive to say, or offer a better solution.
you are free to dislike MY president, and if you lived here you would be free to say the same things that you feel safe in saying from thousands of miles away. but i must say in response, your opinion of president bush is so off base ,as to be laughable. when you go to the same schools, and pull the same grades ,then come back and talk to me.
steve
p.s. see, i can be calm, and reasonable.
ShiningIce
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Bush is a moron.
The Pianist
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Always a lovely way to try and win arguments I find... cause you know that the person its directed at will probably never manage to satisfy that (even if they belive in re-encarnation). And whenever this argument is made, no one will be able to do it right... there will always be some major thing they missed out "Oh, but you didn't do that 10 years ago... it was so different then..."
Such an unfair way to win. "When you are me, then I'll listen."
D
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The Pianist said:
yeah, you know how us old guys are..."it was harder when i grew up".
ok so i'll change the way i said it. when you show you did as well in what ever school you did go to, then come back with your insults to a man who has proved is mental metal already. bush graduated, and did quite well. did any of you lot do as well?
crist, why do i bother with you people. i amaze myself sometime, to be baited like this... ok go ahead, insult bush, cause the truth is that none of you are worthy to lick his boots clean.
steve
From the other side of the river........
I have found "official" academic qualifications to be little indication of original thought or the ability to even think at all. I have barely the qualifications (academic anyway, my vocational qualifications are pretty good) to be allowed to tie my shoelaces without official permission. Despite that, I score higher on IQ tests that Albert Einstein did, who's achieved more than I ever will scholastically. And some of the most qualified doctors you could imagine have less original thought than a potato.
One such person lost a heated argument with me over the subject of medicine and complimentary therapies. Imagining that he could out-shout me, he tried to win it on a personal insults footing first. (Threatening to "slap some logic" into me.) When I rudely disabused him about just what depths I could go to on that front, he proceeded to lose it on medical evidence as well. I have no experience or medical qualifications, but I do have the ability to read the works of those who do, and the faculty to digest and assimilate it.
Prince Harry (the youngest son of Princess Diana and Prince Charles, currently third in line to the English throne) had to have himself fiddled through Eton's A-Levels, so he had just the qualifications to get into the British army as an officer. The original plan had been to have him go to university. Sadly, the gulf between what he got and what he needed for that was just too wide, so a couple of dull grades that should have been failiures was just enough for him to be admitted to Sandhurst (our equivalent of West Point) in a couple of years time.
Someone like George W. Bush is a classic example of someone who can swallow whatever he's told and then regurgitate it onto paper at the right time. That's the only ability you need to get through university. As intelligensia, he has slightly less original thought than a statue and only slighly more animation. (Which is still miles more than that translator who cocked up Boris Yeltzin's sppech that time Bill CLinton was disolving into hysterics beside him.
Something tells me that translator had his ass fired pretty soon after!😀)
I have found "official" academic qualifications to be little indication of original thought or the ability to even think at all. I have barely the qualifications (academic anyway, my vocational qualifications are pretty good) to be allowed to tie my shoelaces without official permission. Despite that, I score higher on IQ tests that Albert Einstein did, who's achieved more than I ever will scholastically. And some of the most qualified doctors you could imagine have less original thought than a potato.
One such person lost a heated argument with me over the subject of medicine and complimentary therapies. Imagining that he could out-shout me, he tried to win it on a personal insults footing first. (Threatening to "slap some logic" into me.) When I rudely disabused him about just what depths I could go to on that front, he proceeded to lose it on medical evidence as well. I have no experience or medical qualifications, but I do have the ability to read the works of those who do, and the faculty to digest and assimilate it.
Prince Harry (the youngest son of Princess Diana and Prince Charles, currently third in line to the English throne) had to have himself fiddled through Eton's A-Levels, so he had just the qualifications to get into the British army as an officer. The original plan had been to have him go to university. Sadly, the gulf between what he got and what he needed for that was just too wide, so a couple of dull grades that should have been failiures was just enough for him to be admitted to Sandhurst (our equivalent of West Point) in a couple of years time.
Someone like George W. Bush is a classic example of someone who can swallow whatever he's told and then regurgitate it onto paper at the right time. That's the only ability you need to get through university. As intelligensia, he has slightly less original thought than a statue and only slighly more animation. (Which is still miles more than that translator who cocked up Boris Yeltzin's sppech that time Bill CLinton was disolving into hysterics beside him.
Something tells me that translator had his ass fired pretty soon after!😀)The Pianist
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Errr... its unlikely you'll get any positive response for that at least from most Australians. It would almost seem that its part of our culture to see political people in a bad light. I think we're beginning to move on from when our government was refusing to say sorry for all the horrible stuff they did to the Aboriginies... or for that matter the whole 'children overboard' scandle with the refugees. But its not that frequently when we praise our prime minister for something... actually I think the last time I can remember someone saying that Howard had done a good job was actually when he stood up to your Bush and refused to budge on something... obviously before this whole war on terror thing.
Not sure if I made the point I think I was trying to make... but hey, its almost 2am.
D
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hey pianist
not sure what your point was ,but that's ok. it was an entertaining post anyway.
i'll tell you something i told big jim in a PM ,the other day. i don't like polititions either. i have no use for career pols. they eat at the public trough till they bleed the tax payers white!
that is why i give credit to those that have done something other than politics their whole lives.
politician are a bane, but leaders, true leaders are someone to be honnored.
steve
not sure what your point was ,but that's ok. it was an entertaining post anyway.
i'll tell you something i told big jim in a PM ,the other day. i don't like polititions either. i have no use for career pols. they eat at the public trough till they bleed the tax payers white!
that is why i give credit to those that have done something other than politics their whole lives.
politician are a bane, but leaders, true leaders are someone to be honnored.
steve
D
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Re: Re: hey pianist
yes i do jim.
he isn't the best leader we've had, but he is someone i could follow.
we've had some greats, like; truman, reagan, fdr, andrew jackson.
all of them are men who made themselves outside of politics, and proved their worth in office as well. he may never be placed with these greats, but bush is a good man ,and a capable leader.
steve
BigJim said:
yes i do jim.
he isn't the best leader we've had, but he is someone i could follow.
we've had some greats, like; truman, reagan, fdr, andrew jackson.
all of them are men who made themselves outside of politics, and proved their worth in office as well. he may never be placed with these greats, but bush is a good man ,and a capable leader.
steve
ShiningIce
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Bush is an idiot. I would think this would be obvious. His father made SURE he graduated from Yale. I would think this obvious too. For God's sake how can anyone with half a brain give Bush ANY credit whatsoever?? the man is a waste of human filth. 🙄
The Pianist
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I've got no idea about what Bush has been doing outside of the war... apart from the occasional "Yes, we want to have free trade with Australia.... so long as we can tax your exports..." which was frustrating a lot of Sheep Farmer like people last time I checked.
But one of the suggestions about the current war thats going around is that he's simply finishing the job his father stopped short of doing (getting rid of Saddam)... which in that light is hardly the traits of a good leader. (this is of course not the only way to view it... just a suggestion)
Are there things outside of the war that Bush has been doing well? Or jumping the gun and attacking a country what ever good leader should do?
But one of the suggestions about the current war thats going around is that he's simply finishing the job his father stopped short of doing (getting rid of Saddam)... which in that light is hardly the traits of a good leader. (this is of course not the only way to view it... just a suggestion)
Are there things outside of the war that Bush has been doing well? Or jumping the gun and attacking a country what ever good leader should do?
bah and flimshaw!
democracy is tyranny of the majority. what you people need is a platonic oligarchical system. which is basically what you have now, only the people at the top are there because of rank and money, not merit. give me a damn meritocracy, where the most able people get the job. give me world government controlled by those who are superhuman in ability and human in emotion.
okay, i was only joking about the ologarchy thing (although america is arguably a conglomerate, not a democracy)
i am not entirely sure what you are telling me to do, arena. are you informing me that my mental capacity is less than bush's, a man who stated that his favourite childhood book was one that had come out when he was in college? who held a book upside down at a literary encouragement campaign? who is a violent uber capitalist? i have to say that i hate capitalism. it breeds evil. i hate communism. it breeds evil. in fact, all economical systems that breed inequality sicken me. we had best go back to bartering in kind (again, joking).
however, i hold to this, and do not joke: humanity is worthless. until we see that, we will continue our arrogant destruction. i do not say we are evil, or good, or ascribe any negative qualities. i simply say what is truth: we are worth no more than animals. there are no objective standards to judge us by. all that we do which is good is good only when assessed by humanity. you argue that this makes assessment impossible? i agree. however, we must consciously affirm our own worthlessness-of-origin if we can hope to smash nepotism and corruption. i say origin: a man can rise above his origins by deeds which are good, not merely to people of his own country or race, not merely to humanity, but to all beings in existance (i except plants, as they are cultivatable.)
i realise that i am ranting. in fact i do so to give preconceptions a kick. wait... what was the question?😛
god...reading what i said i sound like a religious zealot.
democracy is tyranny of the majority. what you people need is a platonic oligarchical system. which is basically what you have now, only the people at the top are there because of rank and money, not merit. give me a damn meritocracy, where the most able people get the job. give me world government controlled by those who are superhuman in ability and human in emotion.
okay, i was only joking about the ologarchy thing (although america is arguably a conglomerate, not a democracy)
i am not entirely sure what you are telling me to do, arena. are you informing me that my mental capacity is less than bush's, a man who stated that his favourite childhood book was one that had come out when he was in college? who held a book upside down at a literary encouragement campaign? who is a violent uber capitalist? i have to say that i hate capitalism. it breeds evil. i hate communism. it breeds evil. in fact, all economical systems that breed inequality sicken me. we had best go back to bartering in kind (again, joking).
however, i hold to this, and do not joke: humanity is worthless. until we see that, we will continue our arrogant destruction. i do not say we are evil, or good, or ascribe any negative qualities. i simply say what is truth: we are worth no more than animals. there are no objective standards to judge us by. all that we do which is good is good only when assessed by humanity. you argue that this makes assessment impossible? i agree. however, we must consciously affirm our own worthlessness-of-origin if we can hope to smash nepotism and corruption. i say origin: a man can rise above his origins by deeds which are good, not merely to people of his own country or race, not merely to humanity, but to all beings in existance (i except plants, as they are cultivatable.)
i realise that i am ranting. in fact i do so to give preconceptions a kick. wait... what was the question?😛
god...reading what i said i sound like a religious zealot.
D
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ShiningIce said:
good point ice, glad you are admitting to having only half a brain! now we can all understand why you speak, and act like you do!
having a whole, working brain i can, and do give him credit, and credit IS DUE. to bad you're too busy playing in the closet to see the truth.
steve
D
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aussiemonkey
i am at a loss. if you are being in earnest in believing that man is no more valuable than the "beasts in the fields", then i have nothing to respond to you. you and i then hold such divergent positions, that there is no way to compromise.
i disagree that capitalism is inheirantly bad. i disagree that america is inheirantly bad, and not truely a democracy.
i will just have to wonder what kicked you in the head as an infant to have made you the way you are today. this is not an insult, or at least not ment to be! i just find your positions to be so alien, that i can't even say " we agree to disagree."
btw, at my local store, australian lamb is cheaper than american raised lamb. so much for your claime of high teriffs.
steve
i am at a loss. if you are being in earnest in believing that man is no more valuable than the "beasts in the fields", then i have nothing to respond to you. you and i then hold such divergent positions, that there is no way to compromise.
i disagree that capitalism is inheirantly bad. i disagree that america is inheirantly bad, and not truely a democracy.
i will just have to wonder what kicked you in the head as an infant to have made you the way you are today. this is not an insult, or at least not ment to be! i just find your positions to be so alien, that i can't even say " we agree to disagree."
btw, at my local store, australian lamb is cheaper than american raised lamb. so much for your claime of high teriffs.
steve
august spies
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bush is just as evil as saddam,why do you think they were allies. bushs evil is more widespread and not domestic (yet). he supports people who committ atrocities like saddam hussien.
Re: Re: Re: hey pianist
Then as you were with AM, we're screwed for ever compromising on that one. The noblest thing George W. Bush ever managed to do was not blow any Brits or Canadians up when he was stoned and whizzing around in the F-104 that his old man fiddled him into, so he wouldn't have to be drafted. (Checking the "I do not wish to be considered for overseas service" box, on his National Guard application form and trying to fiddle his medical examination so his coke addiction would'nt be discovered, as he went.)
He doesn't even remotely compare to his father. (Who is most of the power behind the throne, you can bet your boots!!!)
Don't get me wrong, I deeply dislike George Bush Snr as well. But the difference between the two in coherance, ability and character is as far apart as the North and South Poles.
Now we've dealt with all the argumentative shite, where did I put that coolbox full of Yorkshire Bitter?
Failing that, let's just see who's got the biggest weapon!
areenactor said:
Then as you were with AM, we're screwed for ever compromising on that one. The noblest thing George W. Bush ever managed to do was not blow any Brits or Canadians up when he was stoned and whizzing around in the F-104 that his old man fiddled him into, so he wouldn't have to be drafted. (Checking the "I do not wish to be considered for overseas service" box, on his National Guard application form and trying to fiddle his medical examination so his coke addiction would'nt be discovered, as he went.)
He doesn't even remotely compare to his father. (Who is most of the power behind the throne, you can bet your boots!!!)
Don't get me wrong, I deeply dislike George Bush Snr as well. But the difference between the two in coherance, ability and character is as far apart as the North and South Poles.
Now we've dealt with all the argumentative shite, where did I put that coolbox full of Yorkshire Bitter?
Failing that, let's just see who's got the biggest weapon!
The Pianist
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Its not a claim, its an unfortunate fact. Australian farmers have been having a tough time here recently, for starters there's this drought we've been suffering from for a long time now, there's also that huge boat load of sheep that went to the middle east but had to be sent back with many of the animals dying...
But anyway, we have alot more sheep than we need to eat of course, so we export them, America being one of the other places we export them too... George Bush following with his lovely ideals of free trade (to Australia....) put a rather large tax on the sheep. Of course this is so that the prices are more fairly competitive with the US lamb... but regardless of what it looks like in the shops, the sad reality is that in order to actually sell the meat, the farmers on our end barely make much of a profit at all.
Unfortunately, its a similar story in most places in Australia... if it isn't the US putting taxes on our exports... its Australian produces losing out to the cheaper Asian imports (we have a huge Australian Made ad campain to try and encourage buying aussie stuff)... not to mention, we have lots of protests against globalisation because it generally means that the places we buy things at arn't Australian companies... more and more they are US or European companies that just suck the business out of most independant australian competitors.
Oh dear... sorry, just realised how off topic this thing has become. So I'll stop there for now.
milagros317
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If you truly believe this, then we could not disagree more.
To me, human life and human liberty are the highest possible values, the opposite of worthless. Moreover, I find this to be self-evident.
inflammatory philological dialectics, my tiny jeefe.
of course no person can go through existence believing in the ultimate worthlessness of the human race. this is self evident, mil. it would cause the largest number of suicides in history. if a person concludes that an inherent worthlessness is man's lot, then why live?
but here i am, still breathing, apparently. letely i have been examining the solipsism in my life. the logic behind it is distinctly unscientific. anyway, attempting for a second not to sound like a prat, i was trying to initiate discussion on this topic (sorry person who started this thread) and i can move this to a new thread if you want. i want prior reason. i want self-evidence explained. i believe in man's worth, but the question is why. surely there is no objective value for judging worth, and if we were to create one, it would be arbitrary. nothing can be judged objectively because there is no place where one can posit: these things shall we judge by. there can only be subjective value judgements. and why not? surely this is all we need. we exist for no purpose other than what we define ourselves to do. purpose is denoted by the individual. of course i do not argue moral relativism. perhaps the closest thing we can come to an objective purpose is to sustain ourselves socially. since this seems to be the principle in the animal 'kingdom' (what an odd term) we can conclude, if we accept that we are little more than self-aware animals, that we should follow this too. then yes, mil, your conclusions are correct given this frame. arena... you seem intent on describing me as either insane or mentally deficient in some respect. i respect your right to express your view, but... are you flaming me? i admit my position is provocative, but it is intentionally so. anyway, feck it all, i'm going to the pub to drink until i can conscientiously vote liberal.
of course no person can go through existence believing in the ultimate worthlessness of the human race. this is self evident, mil. it would cause the largest number of suicides in history. if a person concludes that an inherent worthlessness is man's lot, then why live?
but here i am, still breathing, apparently. letely i have been examining the solipsism in my life. the logic behind it is distinctly unscientific. anyway, attempting for a second not to sound like a prat, i was trying to initiate discussion on this topic (sorry person who started this thread) and i can move this to a new thread if you want. i want prior reason. i want self-evidence explained. i believe in man's worth, but the question is why. surely there is no objective value for judging worth, and if we were to create one, it would be arbitrary. nothing can be judged objectively because there is no place where one can posit: these things shall we judge by. there can only be subjective value judgements. and why not? surely this is all we need. we exist for no purpose other than what we define ourselves to do. purpose is denoted by the individual. of course i do not argue moral relativism. perhaps the closest thing we can come to an objective purpose is to sustain ourselves socially. since this seems to be the principle in the animal 'kingdom' (what an odd term) we can conclude, if we accept that we are little more than self-aware animals, that we should follow this too. then yes, mil, your conclusions are correct given this frame. arena... you seem intent on describing me as either insane or mentally deficient in some respect. i respect your right to express your view, but... are you flaming me? i admit my position is provocative, but it is intentionally so. anyway, feck it all, i'm going to the pub to drink until i can conscientiously vote liberal.
