'Bush's Illegal War' Questionnaire

[Deleted member 2452]

aussimonkey

as i said, i was not meaning to flame, or insult you!
i just can't fathom how you could have the views you seem to hold about the value of human life, relative to the rest of the animal kingdom. short of being adled by some childhood trauma, i just can't get my mind around you believing in this concept.
i realize where this could seem like an insult ,but it isn't ment that way. it is so alien to me ,that i can only figure something untoward happening to you. please try to understand my dismay?
steve

 

[The Pianist]

Actually, to a certain extent I can believe AussieMonkey's... to me it depends partially on your religious views. Just be warned, this very next bit is usually used in an argument against Athestism (I think thats the word)... I'm not trying to start an argument, its just my view on how his theory could work

If there is a god... there is probably a reason for us being here because the god(s) would've had some imput into making us different from animals so therefore we can assume that we are a higher species. If there isn't a god... Science then shows us very nicely how our planet was formed and how lucky it was that it was also inhabitable (just look at how many planets that just simply arn't). Then Science tells us all about evolution and the like.

So then what you get is that you are the by descendant of a very lucky monkey that probably by accident worked out how to use a bone as a club... who in turn was very lucky to have an opposable thumb... and also was very lucky to be living outside a pool of water with all its other bacteria friends... who coincidently were also lucky that there happen to be water and oxygen there at all... which was created because the right types of rock just happened to bump into each other in a huge blank space (the universe in general).

So in that case, you are simply a very random and very lucky 'thing' that differs you from any other very lucky and random creature on this earth is a series of equally lucky events that occured a heck of a long time before you.

So from that bit, you could either conclude that you are pretty much worthless and also every other living thing is worthless because its all created from random events. Or you could conclude that you are incredibly lucky to be around... but then again so is every other thing that has a lifespan.

Eitherway, you could say you are no better from a blade of grass.


Did that make sense?

 

[Marauder]

"Every form of life is equally worthless" seems like a bad philosophy. Basing a moral code upon this assumption will lead to the same ultimate result as following the code we currently have in wide employ, the one based on "human life is worth more than anything else". In the present case, global destruction for personal gain is acceptable as long as it gives the executing party short-term (as in "in their own lifetime") profits. Replacing this code with one based on universal worthlessness of life would ultimately lead to even greater destruction as long as it serves the executing party any sort of gain at all, since the need to survive now far outstrips any other need and no consequences need be considered, seeing that nothing is worth saving.

Of course, if you base your moral code upon such airy concepts as "all life is precious and everything is worth the same", you'll starve unless you learn to eat minerals.

Ah, life, what a confounding conundrum.

 

[Dragon321]

god i love earnest debate... mmmm..... i need to....go...somewhere...

meheheeee....

okay, this is a short one, just clearing up my earlier clumsy assertions (staying up late does nothing to improve mental acuity.)here is a second attempt at a contrarian philosophy:

all of humanity is worth much less than we commonly hold to be evident. essentially, the only differential between us and our brethren animals is one of degree and not of kind. evolution is a wondorously fortunate process that has eventuated in us, yet we are not it's goal. evolution is a random process that can go by us should there be a drastic enough change in natural conditions. therefore we should not see ourselves as innately superior to animals, or even to other forms of life or non-organic beings. however. to say that there is no difference whatsoever is to display amazing ignorance. for the first time (that we are aware) there emerged a being capable of introspection and abstract thought. we are not held in thrall by our genes as other animals are, we who can sculpt out a new way of doing for ourselves. i see the constructs of religion, state, heirarchy, and nepotism as arising from a struggle to comprehend, which was precipitated by introspection. these systems have a limited validity. all of the old certainties such as the superiority of mankind in an absolute sense, or the divine right of kings, or any form of placing one person upon another for no reason save origin, are outmoded and archaic relics. humans are not all equal, that much is true. we should all strive to reach our full potential, which will become clear (hopefully) soon.

again this is not my own exact position, merely one which can be attacked and pulled apart and hopefully will create discussion, which i love. arena, no offense taken at the suggestion. the reason i am the way i am is firstly that i wish to be provocative, and secondly that i try to think far more than is good for me. we can either choose comfort or search for the truth. the more truth we find the more it pulls us, but the less comfort we can have without an uneasiness. excellent point marauder! i concur. neither worthlessness or worth-ful ness. thanks, pianist, you helped me alter my 'view' slightly. the difference between our luckiness and the luckiness of animals is that we can appreciate it. what greater joy and sorrow than existence!

love and peace, yo😉

 

[BigJim]

There is a particular sect of Bhuddist monks, who think the same way as AM, but hold a diametrically opposite view. To them all life is equally valuable. For one of their number, killing a cockroach is a heinous sin.

 

[Marauder]

There is a particular sect of Bhuddist monks, who think the same way as AM, but hold a diametrically opposite view. To them all life is equally valuable. For one of their number, killing a cockroach is a heinous sin.

Very nice, yet... No matter how much I hate to reiterate a point I already made, but what do those monks eat? Is not a plant a form of life? Can they not hear the cries of the carrots when their unborn are ripped untimely from their earthen womb? How can they presume the death of insects a dire sin, yet decimate with extreme prejudice our locomotively and intellectually challenged brothers, the verdant inhabitants of the kingdom of flora?

Or are they some of those complete nutjobs who only eat what has fallen off of the trees (great, that apple was a BABY TREE YOU MONSTERS!!!) and who can only survive by ingesting large amounts of food additives that were researched using animal research and are manufactured by grinding vegetables raised under inhumane conditions into a pulp WHILE THEY MAY STILL BE ALIVE?!?

 

[BigJim]

To my knowledge Mar, those monks may not even be vegetarian. Killing something because it annoys you, or because you feel like it, is different I would guess to the slaughter of say a goat, for meat. Or perhaps they do class plant life as less sacred? I'm not sure to be honest, I only brought up the memory because the attitude was an oppo-same to AM's point. For what it's worth, the Zulu's honour a bull and give thanks TO it (as opposed to giving thanks FOR it) before they slaughter and eat it. The regard their cattle with great respect, because for them, they're worth more than mere money. Cattle is hard currency to them.

To someone like me who believes that even the mineral kingdom contains sentinence of a sort, there is no way to eat without killing something important. That's why I think vegetarians are mis-guided. To me, the point is treating the animals well and raising them in humane conditions before using them for food.

 

[Marauder]

Ah, finally! By this line of reasoning, it's only a matter of time until "Long Pig" and "TasteeGhoul" franchises pop up everywhere with their selection of Korpus Krispees, fetus-rolls and bard's-tongue-on-a-bun. Finally I will be able to eat meat again! I just hope they raise the lifestock under humane conditions and thank them before they bast a bolt into their brains, or selse this point is moot. On the other hand, if they don't, I hope for life footage of the mistreatment being broadcasted on discovery so they provide not only The Other White Meat(tm) but also 'fap'-ulous wanking material for the jaded S/M connossoir.

 

[ShiningIce]

First of all Steve zip up your cheeks and try talking out of your mouth. Not everyone in America is a fanatic and those that arent realize exactly how incompitant Bush really is. Hell ask anyone outside the US.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

oh heck, someone left the window open

and now there is an annoying insect buzzing about.

on another note. jim i think if you rearch it further, you'll find those monks believe in re-incarnation, including into the insect world. that's why no bug killing.
a.m., interesting philosophy you posted there, but then you state it isn't what you believe. so, what do you believe?
i do hold that human life is more worthy. if only because we can debate whether it is or not!
sorry but i guess you'll just have to put me down as an evil specieist.
steve

 

[The Pianist]

"Every form of life is equally worthless" seems like a bad philosophy....

...Of course, if you base your moral code upon such airy concepts as "all life is precious and everything is worth the same", you'll starve unless you learn to eat minerals.

Well... the rest of point I could make after my little spiel there is that if we are infact random creations with little more than luck separating us from everything else in this world... then essentially there is no such things as ethics, moral code or justice... because at some point they are based somehow on a false sense of worth.

You could maybe say it's a bit like going to a quarry and telling someone that this small rock (say quartz) is really worth $100... but you won't get anyone to buy it off you because even though it actually is unique, it isn't worth anything... partially because there are a billion pieces of quartz laying on the ground around you that are also equally unique, but equally worthless.


Mind you, this is quite possibly an extreem... but extreems demonstrate a point much better than the watered down version.
Johnny, don't play with matches... you might scorch the carpet. Johnny, don't play with matches... you might start a fire and burn down our house.

And also, this isn't actually my view on life, its just an alternate view I can understand but don't believe in.

 

[ShiningIce]

Perspective...........Its all perspective

 

[BigJim]

Ah, finally! By this line of reasoning, it's only a matter of time until "Long Pig" and "TasteeGhoul" franchises pop up everywhere with their selection of Korpus Krispees, fetus-rolls and bard's-tongue-on-a-bun. Finally I will be able to eat meat again! I just hope they raise the lifestock under humane conditions and thank them before they bast a bolt into their brains, or selse this point is moot. On the other hand, if they don't, I hope for life footage of the mistreatment being broadcasted on discovery so they provide not only The Other White Meat(tm) but also 'fap'-ulous wanking material for the jaded S/M connossoir.

It's not a line of reasoning at all; it's a vague guess-timate made by someone who doesn't know very much about the subject.

You're intelligent enough not to need sarcasm to make a funny point Mar. It's only verdammt, thick limey bastards like me who aren't.

 

[BigJim]

Re: oh heck, someone left the window open

and now there is an annoying insect buzzing about.

on another note. jim i think if you rearch it further, you'll find those monks believe in re-incarnation, including into the insect world. that's why no bug killing.

Come to think of it, that rings a bell. (Albeit a very vague and distant one.) Shame I didn't remember it earlier, it would've saved Marauder the hassle of getting his humour out the closet and dusting it off. 😀

i do hold that human life is more worthy. if only because we can debate whether it is or not!
sorry but i guess you'll just have to put me down as an evil specieist.
steve

A what? 😕 😕 😕

 

[Deleted member 2452]

big jim a speciest..

is someone who is for their own specie over other species.
maybe my spelling is so off that you are not recognizing the word?

steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: big jim a speciest..

is someone who is for their own specie over other species.
maybe my spelling is so off that you are not recognizing the word?

steve

It's not that (for once 😛), I've just never heard of the word before. Makes sense though.

 

[Moses25]

What the hell are you people talking aboot, anymore?

Do you even know?

I swear we need to take this show on the road. Now that Sigmund & Roy are on indefinite leave, Las Vegas will be ripe for the taking.

"Live from Las Vegas, it's the GD Forum on the TMF!!"

(crowd goes wild)

BigJim stands up and declares it's Marauder's birthday...

(crowd goes wild again)

Cheers.😛 😀

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Congratulations, Moses, you just diffused all the tension and seriousness this thread had.

 

[BigJim]

Congratulations, Moses, you just diffused all the tension and seriousness this thread had.

On a slightly more serious note, I'd like to draw attention to the article in the Daily Telegraph that mentions the sad plight of the nearly extinct Lemurs. I mention this because George W. Bush noticed it and said what a pity it was, because he'd always wanted to go visit Lemuria some day.

 

[His Divine Shadow]

*Falls over and laughs so hard that lungs pop out* OMFG, that's beyond hillarious! Now, some of you defend Bush, and he does have some qualities that are okay, but THAT is proof, he is an idiot.😀 You can't just add -ia to the end of a word and get a country.😀

PS: No offense to anyone, you all are entitled to your own opinions.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

that's one i'll have to see for myself

hey hds, why do you believe that?
how do you know jim isn't pulling our colective legs?

steve

 

[Moses25]

You can't just add -ia to the end of a word and get a country.😀

Careful there chief (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Romania, Yugoslavia, Hertz my Govinia (?), etc), but you might want to...

omg, White Feather?!?

You wanna take an Exlax or sumpin' and slow down? We'll all be retired before we can catch up with ya. 😛

Besides, what's gonna come after white? Are we going to get into the Lavender Blue's and Molly Ringwald Pink, and stuff like that?

(Congrats, bro) 😉

Cheers.😀

 

[Dragon321]

thank you for humourous responses. i needed that.

anyway, interesting debate, but i say i'll move this question somewheres else and move back to original topic.

so...

george bush jr: president-for-life, or suit wearing monkey extrodinaire? or of course, hero gulf master starwars megastar?

on a side note, should i ever come to the conclusion that the inherent human good is outweighed by the inherent human evil, i can honsetly say that there is no more point in morality.

but in any case, arena, you are an evil specieist!!!! eeeeeeevil.

that's right, naughty! you're ALL naughty!!!

there is conclusive evidence to prove that sadam is actually a puppet of the US. literally. you can see the strings move when he talks, people! THE STRINGS!!!! HAMPSTERS IN MY CEREBRAL CORTEX NAHAHAAAAGGGG......

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, why do I believe that? Well, excluding the info Jim provided, I can point to Iraq. I personally believe that, had Bush sent in more troops, and or taken more time to get detailed intel on Iraq and any likely threats there, that this drawn out conflict in Iraq would have ended with the capture of Bagdahd, or at least not streched for months. I believe that Bush should have been smart enough to at least send in as many troops as possible, the whole Principle of Overwhelming Force, and that this greater force could have stabilized things faster and prevented at least SOME of the problems and killing going on there daily. And, I also think that Bush was rather stupid in not planning for the problems in Iraq now and in the past months, such as the stabilizing of the government and infrastructure. You'd think if he was going to liberate a country he would have a plan to fix what mess was made in the process.

Now, I am not an Intelligence person, nor Military expert, and I am certainly no Presidential material, therefore I probably have no clue as to what I'm talking about. I suppose I should leave that stuff to the experts. But, this be my opinion, that Bush, with all these failures, is, if not an idiot, then at least not to bright. An of course, I would expect our President to know enough to realize that there is no country, nor was there ever, caller Lemuria. (Sigh, this all probably made no sense....I loathe political matters.) And as to Jim not pulling our collective legs, well, I doubt he would lie, or joke like that, but of course, I could be wrong, and my entire argument could be one big stinking pile of $^&#*, but hey, what else is new about my posts?



Bosnia-Herzegovinia, Moses.😀 Yes, I know there are some, but I meant it more as you can't take a random word, say, bannana, and add -ia to get a country. (Bannania?😛 ) And, thank you, Moses.😀

 

[The Pianist]

Re: About DHS's last post...

Actually, I saw a lovely documentary on the whole intelligence thing a few months ago. And yes, Bush is stupid... but so has been most of the other presidents for at least half a decade.

The whole doco was full of reports from various intelligence groups (especially german and middle eastern) that had been gathering information on possible terrorist leaders and groups around the middle east. And for a heck of a large part, any attempt on their behalf to help the US CIA or Government was completely ignored. The Iraq (or was it Iran?) version of the CIA had, at one point said to the American government (in writing I think) that they basically had the names, positions and movements of various large terrorist groups and were simply asking the US to give them the go ahead to capture them so the US could charge them for whatever. Even with several attempts at getting through, the US Govt never replied.

I think the end point of the doco was that if America had paid attention to the avaliable intelligence from other countries, or acted on specific opportunities that most of the people involved in 9/11 or that they are currently searching for could have been behind bars a few years ago already. Instead, it seemed they instead took the stance of, "Ahhh, its not our problem... let someone else do something about it."