Concerning Kujman + TMF probs

[TickleGal]

This is concerning Kujman and other problems here on TMF. First off, I would like to point out that these two are NOT one-in-the-same. K. is not the problem, nor did he start them. This is not a flame, simply expressing my view of it. It's only fair that if the moderators can talk about it, so can I.

Myriads, you are making it sound as if Kujman WAS the problem entirely and that by revoking his moderator status, all will be right with the world. This simply isn't true. People will still discuss controversial topics, such as m/m tickling, etc...and guys like (you know who) will still make ridiculous posts on a.m.t. when they feel they're being wronged or they want to turn everyone against a certain person. It won't change.

I'll tell you what will change though. You will be without one of the best moderators you ever had around here, who took a lot of time out from his life to upkeep the TMF. Even with being ill and other problems (yes I know we all have them) he worked to keep the place flame-free AND full of good, useful information.

I am not trying to brag here, but why do so many people turn their newborn noses up at experienced players like K. and me in favor of people who have nothing to say except, "Hi Gang," "Buy my videos," and stupid jokes? The community is supposed to be for people into tickling to get together and exchange (useful! helpful!) information, experiences and insights. Yes, it is also a place to meet others and socialize. Yes, it is also a place to feel like you belong and you are not a weirdo. But other stuff, a more meaningful purpose, is starting to be ignored.

As Kujman pointed out in his email to you, there are moderators who have deleted (yes, deleted, not removed or relocated) posts from people who they knew were against them because they did not feel they should be out there. But K. stops a thread from getting out of hand and suddenly he is shunned. That doesn't seem fair to me.

I humbly ask that you please think about what you want to accomplish with this board, what your values are, what you feel the community is for...and then think about if what you did is right. Kujman added a lot to this place and if you think he will continue to hang around with his tail between his legs, you're really wrong. He will be gone.

And no, I'm not trying to say the TMF world will crumble without him as moderator. But there will definitely be less information, less ideas, less insights and less overall quality to the board. I worked my butt off to talk him back into getting involved with the community after the accident, and now my hard work has just been flushed.

I want to continue with our site, as we have much more to offer still...not just the graphics and sound, etc...but a real "community" feel for those of us who view things a little differently. But I can't and won't do it without my partner, and we are seriously discouraged at this point.

I don't feel that Kujman did anything wrong by locking a post that he felt was getting out of hand. It sucks that someone can get him booted by ranting and raving on the a.m.t. Are you so scared for your reputation that you would get rid of him just to please some jerk? And look better in the eyes of a.m.t. which isn't even a real forum anymore, just a place to hurl insults? Please think about it, ok? Thanks...

Toni aka TickleGal

 

[WallStreet]

You have to respect a woman who stands by her man. A good woman is far more valuable than some internet title.
I've never been to this AMT before. It sounds like there's alot of flaming going on. Perhaps I'll go there and start a few fights.

 

[Tickler2001]

You're not seeing the whole picture

You are missing something here.
Dodger is not even an issue in all this. I don't believe any of his posts influenced Myriads decision.

To say Kujman's only reason for locking that thread was to stop it from getting out of hand is to have one's head in the sand. If he only wanted to do that he would have locked it without making his last post.
In reality what he did was take one last shot at me personally and a few others and then lock it so he would have the almighty last word to preserve his ego.
This is not the first time he has done this and it is not the act of a good moderator.

Was Kujman a valued and contributing member of TMF? Yes he was.

Was Kujman a good Moderator? No he wasn't.

In addition I don't believe Kujman is banned from the site, he is just not a moderator anymore.

The only thing keeping him from posting here any longer is his ego.

 

[Strelnikov]

Never thought I'd agree with T2001 about anything, but here I am, and I see the situation exactly as he does.

Kujman was always a little too self-congratulatory for my taste, and way too prone to dismiss those of us who haven't made tickling the center of our lives. Some of us have real lives apart from tickling. Who says that this place has "a more meaningful purpose" than socializing with others who share a common interest? Who says that Kujman's stuff is "more meaningful" than the fantasy fun in the vidclips, pix, toons and stories? Why, HE does, of course, and that settles the matter.

Kujman branded the men who responded to the M/M thread with "no, not interested, don't like" as homophobes, without a scrap of evidence in most cases. That's not where I'm coming from, or some others who I know. Do we all have to like the same thing, or participate whether we like it or not? Apparently so, in his view.

Good riddance.

Strelnikov

 

[Ultratickler]

I know this Kujman person has supposedly accomplished more things in the tickling scene than anyone else, and that might give him the right to speak with much confidence, but his posts seemed to have a holier-than-thou spirit to them, which really isn't an attractie quality in any person, let alone a moderator. It would be a value judgement to revoke his moderator status on this alone.

I think locking the thread was premature, and really his only mistake. I'm not sure anyone can be expected to be perfect, so I would say that revoking the moderator status on this alone is probably not the best solution. But it seems likely that the decision was probably based on a combination of factors.

 

[TickleGal]

Who says that this place has "a more meaningful purpose" than socializing with others who share a common interest? Who says that Kujman's stuff is "more meaningful" than the fantasy fun in the vidclips, pix, toons and stories? Why, HE does, of course, and that settles the matter.

Well, I said that actually. I said that, and no one else. Please don't blame him for my words.

Kujman was always a little too self-congratulatory for my taste

Please, this is not a question of popularity or "taste" here. I'm not saying you have to like Kujman. No one has to like anyone. Besides, whether or not he suits your palate (LOL) has nothing to do with whether or not he should have been booted as moderator.

Also, no one says you have to like m/m tickling, or participate. Kuj was pointing out the hypocrisy of guys who think m/m tickling is sick, but f/f tickling is fantastic. It's a double-standard.

I'm also not saying that Kujman's stuff is more meaningful than great fantasy stories, pics, vids, etc...Fantasy is awesome!!! I love fantasy. It all depends on what you're interested in. This place is big enough for all of us to have our different tastes. Again, you are putting words in his mouth. He never said his stuff was better than anyone else, nor did I. I simply wanted people to remember that most of us like to engage in this stuff IRL, and if you're going to do it, you might want to talk to others who have been doing it for a while. That's all I meant. Just wanted to clarify...thanks.

Toni aka TickleGal

 

[Ultratickler]

Also, no one says you have to like m/m tickling, or participate. Kuj was pointing out the hypocrisy of guys who think m/m tickling is sick, but f/f tickling is fantastic. It's a double-standard.

Just curious, but what is the double-standard you speak of? Are people no longer allowed to have sexual/tickling preferences without being considered hypocrites. I haven't seen any cases on this Forum to date where someone put down M/M tickling on moral grounds, but only stated that it wasn't their preference in so many words. Only if someone said that F/F tickling was morally acceptable while M/M was not would be exhibiting this double-standard.

 

[Strelnikov]

Sorry, T-Gal. Locking the thread pissed me off - had a post typed and ready to go into it, and it bounced. Looks like I just blasted you instead.

I've never met Kujman, all I know of him is what I've seen online. I admire his courage in the WTC attack. Even so, I'll stand behind the third para of my post, and the first half of the second para, because that's how it still seems to me.

Strelnikov

 

[Prime]

you have to love internet polls..they are the equvalent of telemarketing....and as for my views on this subject just let me say .....i have no views on this subject...thank you..drive home safely ....dont forget to tip the waitress on your way out...😛

 

[Tickler2001]

Dodging the issue again

Ticklgal,

You dodged the issue again.
The fact is that Kujman abused his status as moderator. The contents of his post are irrelevant here.

Myriads explanation in the other thread is exactly what I've been trying to say.

It is now confirmed that Kujman is welcome to continue to post here, he will just not be a moderator.

 

[pope11]

I Agree With Prime

I totally agree with Prime. We should all tip the waitress on our way out.

 

[tklxprt]

but why do so many people turn their newborn noses up at experienced players like K. and me in favor of people who have nothing to say except, "Hi Gang," "Buy my videos," and stupid jokes?
Toni aka TickleGal

with all due respect ticklegal, i kind of like stupid jokes. and if memory serves me, on your tickle palace website dont you have videos for sale? "hi gang," "buy my videos"

 

[tklxprt]

But K. stops a thread from getting out of hand and suddenly he is shunned. Toni aka TickleGal

again with respect and a calm voice i will say this. from what i saw, K was the first reason the thread got out of hand by his "chickens" and "hypocrits" comments to guys that simply answered the questions truthfully. he didn't stop there. once reply posts were made to him that contradicted him he, now listen close please, he fully deleted the posts of the people he did not like, then wrote a big long rude post proclaiming his vast knowledge of all tickling, but this is the kicker, this is what was so wrong, he closed the post after getting in his last speech. now im no mod, but i know that is not how mods should act. in the aftermath now you are saying he was just trying to keep things from getting out of hand. how convenient to say that. then why delete a bunch of posts, make a final post, then close the thread? why not move the whole thread to the admin section? that would have put a lid on it till myriad could see it. these are the facts ticklegal. plain facts. i'm sorry you are upset. i would be too. best wishes, really.

 

[Krokus]

I think......

Kujman got what he deserved......cant follow the rules, get lost! I suggest you get over it TickleGal.

 

[Dave2112]

This is a touchy situation no matter how you look at it. With all due respect TickleGal, you can't just say that those of us who post "jokes and cartoons" (paraphrase) aren't as "real" as Kuj just because it's the center of his life. Hey, it's the center of mine, too. I posted a joke, so that means I'm not a "real" contributor or I'm a newbie? I've been into the lifestyle for almost 20 years. It is not fair for you to judge people by their contributions without knowing their intent or mindset.

As far as Kujman's involvement in the WTC disaster, I have always held that in the highest esteem. But to bring it up again and again (and not just by you, TG, I mean everyone who's using that as a way to defend the latest problems), is only covering the issue with something that's politically incorrect to disagree with. A long time ago I was invloved in saving someone's life. Does that mean I can do whatever I want at work and not get fired? No. The two are unrelated issues.

I hope Kuj does come back, as he IS a valuable member. But these things happen and we will move on.

My respectful 2 credits.

 

[qjakal]

Don't Know Him...

But Strel is correct about the posts....and as I said originally, being a Mod does require you to weigh your posts extra carefully....like it or not, that's the way it has always been on all boards. The grating tone in that one got what it deserved, IMO, and the assumptions and implications it contained were not taken lightly by many of the members who had posted. Q

 

[MN Tikl]

How I see it

Strel and I don't seem to agree on much, but we've found common ground on this. I'd like to echo Strel's sentiments (and those of T2001 and others). We can argue until we're blue in the face about the substantive content of KUJMAN's post, but it now seems fairly undisputable that the manner in which the content was delivered (and the behind-the-scenes deletion of posts) was not up to Moderator standards.

Moderator status is, paradoxically, both a superior and inferior status, and carries special privileges and special responsibilities. The privileges are obvious. But the special responsibilities are equally important. One of these is to subordinate your own ego to the greater interests of this forum; unlike us "commoners", a moderator has a duty to 'put a muzzle on it' at times, rather than making comments that are counter-productive to the TMF. It's no insult to say KUJMAN had problems with this aspect of being a moderator -- hell, I'd be a terrible moderator too, for this very reason!

Moderators are here to moderate and contribute in a *positive* manner. They are *not* here to level ill-conceived charges of hypocrisy (Ultratickler put it quite well "Only if someone said that F/F tickling was morally acceptable while M/M was not would be exhibiting this double-standard."). They are not here to put others down for having a different/narrower perspective on human sexuality then themselves (spoken well by Strel, "way too prone to dismiss those of us who haven't made tickling the center of our lives").

Like others here, I enjoy reading the *content* of KUJMAN's posts. And I recognize and thank him for his vast contributions to our special interest. But his attitude that the rest of us are hopelessly provincial does tend to get in the way. Despite his vast real life experience, his is just ONE of many differing perspectives here. I judge his comments on their merit (or lack thereof, as the case may be). Once someone's attitude gets to the point of 'don't question me: I've seen more, done more, and know more than anybody else' they are simply not Moderator material.

I sincerely hope KUJMAN continues to post here. In fact, it would reflect quite well on him if he could manage to co-exist here as an EQUAL -- rather than in an exalted celebrity status. As previously said, his ego is the only thing that prevents him from returning.

 

[Sandman]

Here is a email I got from KUJMAN. It gives you a little more idea of what happend. I really hope nobody feels the need to delete it. He has done a lot for the board and I think he deserves a reply.

"without your permission.. >>

Well, Ticklegal and I aren't married- but thanks for the well wishes 🙂

Why leave? It wasn't my choice. Myriads made it, and Jeff was too nervous
to
back me up, both claiming in effect that by removing me "all would be
well
with the world". I simply deserved better treatment and respect than
the way
it was handled. I was treated like some stupid child. Never asked
until AFTER
the fact. I found out when I got back from the hospital after
two days.

A thread got out of hand, i dleted soe of the nasty posts ONLY aimed at
me.
It continued- as well as nasty email- so knowing that I was going into
the
hospital and unable to watch over it, I locked the thread in the name
of
keeping the peace. Thats all. The guy involved would not contact me
in email
to conclude or discuss it. Everyone knows how to contact me, but
some, like
him, want the attention of a flame. Many who might disagree
with a comment
often contact me and they are very happy with the results.
YOU contacted me,
and found the same.

That's the whole crime: doing my
job as layed out to me.

And this is how I was treated after all l've offered and done for TMF.

So, fuck this.

If I was female or any other mod they simply would have reopened the thread

and said something to me. They would have looked at all the good I've done,

considered what I've been thru lately, and ignored what they think as a

slip-up and simply re-opened the thread, right? Isn't that a simple solution?


I feel like posting: DUH! It's just a little thread, folks- not the end
of
the world. We have better things to worry about. Those are just words.
And
all I did was delete the flames against ME personally- no one else.
I closed
it to stop fighting. So here's an idea- you know what? You can
always open a
NEW thread, right?

But the truth is, it's not about deleting
things- its too easy to reopen and
repost them- and all I did was my job,
watching over the posts. I was NEVER
told nor given any rules about not
deleting from the start, as Jeff now
claims, and I've been here as one
of the earliest mods. Other mods delete
things. And I have very fine judgement,
and despite Tickler2001's stupid
remarks, have a great personality for
it too. I just don't swallow shit from
him or others and that infuriates
them because I'm not a coward and won't be
intimadated online OR in person.


And- if I recall correctly- just recently some posts were deleted by mods

relating to tickling kids- so why weren't they ousted? That's free speech

too. (I disgree with underage tickling too, but a suppossed rules a rule,

right??)

Like I said, the ones I deleted were towards ME, not information about the

TMF or useful to anyone, just thinly disguised flames with nasty touches

aimed at me from a jerky inexperienced guy who would argue with me if I
said
"the sky was blue". I closed the thread- another right of a mod- in
order to
stop further attacks and keep the peace because I knew I was going
into the
hospital for two days...... and this is what I came back to.


So it's not about deleting: that's a bullshit excuse. It's about politics.

The TMF was at one time far removed from the AMT- now it's getting hard
to
tell the difference as they surround themselves with their own "clique".

Nitwits like Dodger and Tickler2001 always have to have the last word and
are
always right- they offer nothing in real terms though. No experience,
no
photos, nothing practical as I offer- BUT they're total experts in their
own
mind. And because they gripe loud enough, and the people who support
me (the
majority) remain silent, well they get all the attention. They
have bugs up
their asses merely because I've done more, or was here first-
a very stupid
childish way to act, but none the less there can be no other
explaination for
their attitudes.

EX: look at how Dodger posted on the
AMT! And others condone his actions and
he's welcomed back by mods.

Yet
not ONE mod has contacted me about anything. I think that tells you a lot

about people on the TMF. If thats the case- I'm glad I'm away.

I was a mod from the very early start and gave it my all, when these new

people now posting and bitching and attacking me were simply AMT'ers causing

flame wars- which now the TMF also condones it seems.

Jeff uses the excuse that he's had to defend me against complaints...
everyone
laughed at that remark because its so far removed from truth...
complaints
about what? Because I give practical advice and how-to info? He
can't name
"who" because there isn't anybody with any good reason- other than
the
useless nitwitty people I've already mentioned here. All you need to to

prove this is to look at all my recent posts, indepth personal openings
of
what I've gone through so that others may avoid my pitfalls- and the
comments
by others thanking me for sharing. Or look back to when I came
back online
after the 9/11 tragedy, and see all the well wishers... they
far outnumber
the four or five that complain.

But as usual, people want
to "fit in" so most (not all) keep their mouths
shut and let me take it
alone. Myriads and Jeff are too busy trying to be
popluar and don't realize
yet that THEY lose out- as do the many many new
people and old people alike
who enjoy and listen to my input and benefit from
it. What will those complainers
offer? I had a how-to section all ready to
go with pics of making stocks.
But that's all in the past now because if they
think I would ever post
to TMF again after how I was treated and sit there
and just let others
take pot shots at me like AMT, then they're fucking
crazy. They miss out-
not me. I still have our parties, faires, beach outing,
sorority events,
and private events.

So what WAS the issue?: what it is, is that some nitwits complain merely

because I won't say or post "their" way, or make Tickle Palace "their" way.
I
never will- I'm "me"... and THATS why the TMF has many different mods-
to
have different views. But now they want everyone to think alike.

There's
maybe two others causing trouble who want to be mods but can't be if
I'm
here. One a newer female member well known on AMT has been bragging to

others how she would have me ousted and she' d be a mod- gee what a funny

coincidence huh? So watch who's the new mod and you'll see for yourself.

Myriads admitted that they simply wanted more females on board as mods,
and
it had nothing to do with experience or anything- just the fact they
were
females. Yet he turned down VERY experienced players like Ticklegal
and
Elaah, claiming they were "too politcal"- more bull. The already have
in mind
who they want. You'll see.

I loved the TMF, I loved sharing... many loved me back and have written
to
say so, but are afraid to post because it will be deleted... I even
loved the
people who didn't love me back- because their views, even if
very shallow at
times, were important to me as well, though it may not
have seemded as such.
Any time I had any difference with any one, they
were more than welcome to
contact me in private email and work it out-
but NONE of the ones mentioned
would do so. You can draw your own conclusion.


I'll miss the sharing with the many people- but I won't miss where the TMF
is
headed now. They don't want valid input and info from anyone that dares
to
slightly disagree with their style or ideas... they don't want growth-
I'm
told all they want is "fun". That was the goal of AMT too.

Some guys are simply afraid of me. It manifests itself in their attacks
when
they incorrectly feel their macho image has been damaged. People are
afraid
of others who can do, or have done, what they cannot do... all thru
history
you see it, they attack what they don't understand or what doesn't
agree with
them personally- just like TMF- this is what's happened here-
I did not lock
out others thoughts- I locked out a guy attacking me personally.
That doesn't
belong on AMT. PERIOD.

So I hope everyone is happy with their choice of who they wish to remain
on
TMF.

My best to you..."

Now, what he did I now don't think was that bad. At first I thought he made a reply then locked the thread down so nobody else could. But that was not the case. After his reply was made he was NOT planning on closing down the thread untill Dodger replied like he did. Then he locked it..

 

[MN Tikl]

1 More Thing

The language in the poll should be changed. Kujman was NOT "booted". Rather, his moderator status was revoked. As far as I know, he is more than welcome to continue posting here. And as I've said previously, I hope he does, because he has a lot to offer.

So change the poll to "Do you think Kujman's Moderator status should have been revoked?" That's a fairer and more relevant question.

 

[Prime]

you have to ask yourself this.....why does someone feel compelled to explain themselves all the time...or get someone to do it for them..i remember one time i stuck up for kuj in the amt...i saw what he had to offer...i didnt know him..hardly ever posted there...but i said hey guys leave him alone look at what he has accomplished...then i send him an email to say...i like what your done..they should leave you alone...his return email says that he thanks me for support..but that i should post in the amt to defend him more...that seemed odd..not at all like somneone that wanted something to just go away.. no one can argue that he has accomplished alot...but like has been stated before that doesnt mean you can do as you please...for some reason there always seems to be a conspiracy against this guy because people are agianst him....people are trying to run him off..he is ahead of his time....uhuh..well im not buying it...when the posts come off as arrogant...when you all the time have to defend yourself or get another to do it for you(or maybe they willingly do it) something is wrong...and that person will always continue to clash with the rest. why would someone always feel compelled again to tell people what they had ready to show the community, but never quite got it posted yet...this whole thing looks like someone yelling "screw you guys, im taking my ball and going home" its all set up to make you take sides..now i have nothing against kuj..i admire his work and knowledge...but i know what a trouble maker looks like...and i knwo the million excuses they can use to hide behind..lots of them are designed to make you feel guilty about saying what you feel....well anyhow i can say this so far this tread has been good and i dont think anyone has gotten to out of hand...its nice to see a discussion can go on....my hands hurt from typing😛

 

[Prime]

feel free to spell check my last post....i just did..it was horrible..somewhere right now all my english teachers are shaking their heads and throwing up their hands in defeat.

 

[red indian]

Still none the wiser

Is any one going to tell me why my post was deleted? All I have to show for my trouble so far is a half hearted admission by one moderator that I may possibly be right to complain, and a lot of foul mouthed abuse from another for asking. I am not mad at any one but I will admit to being bemused and inquisitive. Maybe kujman or ticklegal could tell me why it was deleted? It would be interesting to see what people think to my post (which I can remember pretty well and could reproduce) and compare it to other things which are allowed such as refering to muslims as "towel heads" and sick cartoon jokes about bombing Afghanistan.

 

[Tickler2001]

Can't hide the Arrogance in that message

1) Why did he insult me and then lock the post? If he was so concerned like he said he could have just locked it with out his last post.

2) Kuj was the person trying to intimidate people not me or anyone else.

3) Once again, Kuj figures he is superior because he has had tickling gatherings, made videos.....blah, blah, blah. Some of us are not into "the scene". I have no desire to attend a tickling gathering. I've done my share of tickling in my personal life. Just because I haven't documented it on video or done it in a public circus I'm inferior? Give me a break. As was stated before some of us have a life and just happen to like tickling.

4) His message once again proves he does not have the persanality to be a moderator. It reeks of arrogance. And refers to eveyone else here as a lower form of life. I think its pretty evident from the posts in this thread that everyone sees him for what he really is. This silent majority he speaks of only exists in his dream world.

 

[red indian]

talking your language?

Look on the bright side jeff, the videos you sent me are F***ing great!

 

[MikeM]

Some people post really silly remarks. Of course they have videos, Expert-- but that's not what she's talking about and you know it. She's talking about the type of AMT atmospshere, so shallow. It does get to you after a while. The Palace is anything but shallow.

As for trying to make the TMF a "better place" as someone complained kj was trying to do-- heck I'm all for it. Why should it be all fun and games and no substance behind it like some wish it to be. It's not for picking up chicks. Or is that all there is to it? With KJ gone the TMF has NO reality tickling and no connection to it or history behind how the community began. Who offers it?

As for Tickler's remarks, even weirder. I've lost all respect for any comment you make, dude. You carry a Kumjan chip on your shoulder too big to weigh and it shows. You will never measure up to kujman's ability or history. Neither will I or anyone. So rather than attack it, why not just embrace it and catch on. His actions were well within the moderator's judgement call and not an abuse. He made it clear that he stopped the thread and personal attacks aimed only at himself to stop a flame. That's all. Pretty good call. I'm sure in your opinion you'll justify that it's ok to bash kujman and he should take it. I've heard that on AMT many times. The chips getting bigger.

Most are in agreement with ticklegal and others who make reasonable sense. In trying to figure out the facts and reasoning as handed to us by the head honchos-- it really doesn't add up at all. Sorry dudes. Many other moderators have deleted and moved posts and even closed them to stop wars. All you needed to do was perhaps ask Kujman to remove his post. That doesn't wax with me and many others. Nor does the other excuses people are passing out: kujman had complaints against him. I'd like to see them here. Not the ones from these same tired guys.

May I remind all of you of all the accolades laid on him just a month ago when we thought we had lost him? How soon we forget.

He offered a lifetime of stories and experiences he could prove through photos. Do we want to lose that? What do they offer us in exchange?

I formally protest and request that you reinstate kujman, or the TMF loses it's greatest asset.

That's about all I have to say and about as best as I can say it.

Mike