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death penalty

JoBelle said:


Well, thanks for that backhanded compliment. lol

It's not a matter of sacrifincing anyone TO THE ALTAR OF LEGAL INCOMPETENCE. I just happen to think, as noted in my previous post, that sometimes we as a society must realize that just because we cannot reach perfection does not mean we should give up on something that is better than nothing at all.

People die everyday on highways. Do we stop driving cars? We know for a FACT that people will die every year at the hands of other drivers, yet we all make a daily decision to get behind the wheel of a car for convenience's sake. It's not like that is even a crap shoot. It's fact.

Just a simple example of how absurd the argument is.


Hmmmm.

I don't think you can make a comparison between deaths caused by negligent drivers and deaths caused by a calculated and cold-blooded decision. That really is a prime example of an "absurd argument". If your example followed over to the vehicular homicide argument, then we'd respond to every RTA by destroying every car in the vicinity to make sure that none of them ever hit a pedestrian again. What we do instead is try to invent cars that are more managable and try to educate potential drunk drivers into what a lack of responsibility can cause.

I've nothing against making the best of what we've got, while being aware that perfection is impossible; we just disagree on how the approach is done. It's not even your being in favour of the death penalty that saddened me. It was the "it's worth killing a few innocents so long as we get the majority of muderers" line.
 
I don't think anyone means we should fry people left and right in the hopes we get rid of all the murderers. I think there are instances where the amount of evidence is so overwhelming and the acts so brutal that the death penalty is warranted. The reality of society is that there will be errors but that does not mean you give up on everything that you think is best for society.

Let me ask you this if I could wave a magic wand and make sure that no one ever innocent was executed and that death penalty was used 100% fairly would any of you who oppose it be for it?
 
kurchatovium said:

Let me ask you this if I could wave a magic wand and make sure that no one ever innocent was executed and that death penalty was used 100% fairly would any of you who oppose it be for it?

I guess I would, but what about this. Whould you prefer a life time of constant anal rape or lethal injection? I think I would choose lethal injection. In fact I would beg for it.
 
You raise an interesting point Iggy. Also I wonder if someone wrongly accused who is sentenced to life really any better off than someone wrongly accused who is sentenced to death. Both I think are equally tragic. By the way to answer your question I would take the lethal injection.
 
Kurchatovium, both cases are not equally tragic, IMHO. There's no way to save a person who's executed and then found innocent. But an innocent person who's put in prison for life will most likely be cleared of any wrongdoing before he dies. Yes, he might lose many years off of his life, but at least he'll still be alive, and he'll also be vindicated. And if in the future there's a way to ensure that no one ever dies wrongly, then I will support the death penalty. But until that time comes, I won't. This thread has good arguments from both sides. Keep posting, people! 🙂
 
I love it when someone takes a comment and turns it into an absolute literal comparison.🙄

The whole thing about cars was to show that we as a society seem to only dignify death when it is the issue at hand. When it is the byproduct of something else, it's no big deal. ESPECIALLY if it is a byproduct of something we deem needed for our standard of life to continue as it is. *war, transportation, police v/s criminals* I'm saying let's look at numbers. Comparing the thousands of people who die on highways to the number of innocents, or for that matter the number of GUILTY who are executed, it seems we really should be focusing on getting cars banned.

Since when is knowingly letting people die any different than intentionally killing them? *that's food for thought* I think people point this big finger at capital punishment and say "No, no" because they feel it is unjust. I'm saying it is no more unjust than any other situation where we let people die for the sake of life as we want it.

No one is saying "Hey. let's go kill some innocent people." We are saying, "There is just cause why this person is a threat to society and has deemed himself disrespectful of human life."

We go farther and work harder to protect the innocent in the justice system than we do an any other area of life. Given that, I find it hard to believe someone would turn the other cheek and knowingly let people die left and right in the world, yet still oppose the death penalty. It seems hypocritical to me.

Joby
 
JoBelle said:
I love it when someone takes a comment and turns it into an absolute literal comparison.🙄

The whole thing about cars was to show that we as a society seem to only dignify death when it is the issue at hand. When it is the byproduct of something else, it's no big deal. ESPECIALLY if it is a byproduct of something we deem needed for our standard of life to continue as it is. *war, transportation, police v/s criminals* I'm saying let's look at numbers. Comparing the thousands of people who die on highways to the number of innocents, or for that matter the number of GUILTY who are executed, it seems we really should be focusing on getting cars banned.

Since when is knowingly letting people die any different than intentionally killing them? *that's food for thought* I think people point this big finger at capital punishment and say "No, no" because they feel it is unjust. I'm saying it is no more unjust than any other situation where we let people die for the sake of life as we want it.

This whole car argument is ridiculous. Why? Because you do have a resonable alternative to the death penalty. It is life imprisonment without the possibility of Parole. Most modern democracies do not have the death penalty and they still function as a society. Now, if I was to say we cannot imprison anybody because of the possiblity of imprisoning somebody innocent then I would be making a ludicrous statement because that is not a resonable alternative. Yes, innocent people die in car crashes all the time, so why not ban cars? Because cars have become essential to our modern society. At the moment, we do not have resonable alternative. So instead we try to build safer cars and educate the public on safer driving habits. So untill we build that national subway system it looks like we are going to have to stay away from the ban on cars.


However, I still think I would take lethal injection over a lifetime of anal rape. So the more I think about the more I support the death penalty.
 
Iggy pop said:
This whole car argument is ridiculous. (snip) Yes, innocent people die in car crashes all the time, so why not ban cars? Because cars have become essential to our modern society. At the moment, we do not have resonable alternative.

Sheesh!!!
The point about the cars was not LITERAL!!!!!!
Must I spell it out again?

-----The fact that cars have become essential is not a good enough argument for me. Losing an innocent to fulfill our lazy needs is just bollocks! It's ok that people die so we can get somewhere faster and easier,but not when it comes to keeping a possibel murderer off the street. I notice you ignored the comment I made about the fact that dignity in death doesn't come into play when it doesn't fit in our plan of ease. There are alternatives to cars. You don't see a push for it, because the lost lives don't matter. Do they? We can alter our lives to fit any situation. It's a matter of want.-----

See how we can argue any point to fit our needs? THAT is the point of the car comparison.

Oh well, y'all are right...let's lock 'em up forever. They will never get out, or kill one their inmates...yadayadyada. Take care of them, feed them, shelter them. Baby them in other words. And do it all out of your own pockets. Yep, y'all are right. I agree 100%.

Joby :sowrong:
 
I oppose the death penalty...

not out of a sense of moral indignation but simply because life imprisonment without the possibility of parole better serves society's needs of retribution and cost-effectiveness. Someone in prison for life is kept there much less expensively than someone on death row for 10 + years. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters any better than life imprisonment (indeed it may deter less if juries are inclined to acquit rather than sentence the guilty to die). Florida spent over $1.5 million to execute Ted Bundy. Good money or bad? I say, if it were less to keep the shit in prison, there would be more resources for police officers, courts or new prisons for that matter. It's zero sum. Every extra dollar we spend to execute someone out of misplaced sense of vengence or bloodlust is one less dollar that can be used for a new police car, court, or prison. It's in our own interest to retire the death penalty and join the rest of the humane world leaving South Africa, China, and Singapore to implement the ultimate sanction.

Rook.
 
JoBelle said:


Sheesh!!!
The point about the cars was not LITERAL!!!!!!
Must I spell it out again?

No it is the comparison you yourself chose to use. Let's face it was not a good comparison to use.



Oh well, y'all are right...let's lock 'em up forever. They will never get out, or kill one their inmates...yadayadyada. Take care of them, feed them, shelter them. Baby them in other words. And do it all out of your own pockets. Yep, y'all are right. I agree 100%.

Yes because we all know a maximum security prison is like disneyland.
 
Re: I oppose the death penalty...

Blackrook said:
It's in our own interest to retire the death penalty and join the rest of the humane world leaving South Africa, China, and Singapore to implement the ultimate sanction.


Japan has the ultimate penalty too. They don't do it very often, but they do still hang people. What about all the third world countries who execute? They're internationally condemned as inhumane.

Biggles
 
Amk, I have seen some TV specials about many prisons and the nastiness of the conditions there so to me yes to spend a lifetime in a hellhole is equally as tragic as being executed. Now if your talking about one of the "Club Med" type prisons with tennis courts and cable TV yes I would agree with you. Those prisons I think are reserved for CEO's though.🙂
 
Isn't the deal with those type of prisons, the more money you rip off from average people, the higher you're allowed to bill room service?

Biggles
 
Some of you have been posting about some prisons being nicer than they should be, but I haven't seen any of you give concrete examples (so-and-so prison has these amenities). From what I know about the penal system, prisons in this country are overcrowded and miserable places to be in. If they're such great places, people would commit crimes just to get in jail. If I murdered someone and was found guilty, I'd rather die in an instant than spend the rest of my "life" in a cage. Just my measly 2 cents here, guys. 🙂
 
So I think we actually agree amk. Yeah from what I saw on TV I would rather die too than spend god knows how many years there in one of those nasty prisons I saw. As too how many prisons are nasty and how many are nice I have actually no ideal.
 
No we don't kurch. You support the death penalty but I don't. My point is that I would rather be executed than sentenced to life, not the other way around. Sorry to burst your bubble. 🙂
 
kurchatovium said:
Let me ask you this if I could wave a magic wand and make sure that no one ever innocent was executed and that death penalty was used 100% fairly would any of you who oppose it be for it?


I'm torn on that one. The idea of someone who was like that guy who was putting poison in his children's Pixie Sticks so he could claim on THEIR life insurrance (while he and his wife had none) getting executed, doesn't sadden me very much. That guy was the first in his state to get a lethal injection instead of riding the lightening I think.

I think I would still go for the "lifetime of constant anal rape". I have two reasons. One because I'd rather die quickly than be banged up with Benny The Bunghole Buster and the other, because I think it is better for humanity as a whole. It's difficult to explain why I think that, so I won't even try to convince anyone of it.
 
JoBelle said:


Since when is knowingly letting people die any different than intentionally killing them? *that's food for thought* I think people point this big finger at capital punishment and say "No, no" because they feel it is unjust. I'm saying it is no more unjust than any other situation where we let people die for the sake of life as we want it.

Given that, I find it hard to believe someone would turn the other cheek and knowingly let people die left and right in the world, yet still oppose the death penalty. It seems hypocritical to me.
Joby

It seems hypocritical to me too, believe it or not. I am for all the side points you've brought up in this thread Jo. Just because I've focused on soley that in this thread, doesn't mean this is the only area I would give an arse about reforming. (Using myself as the only example here.) I think knowingly letting someone die because you could'nt be bothered to do something that might save them is a heinous crime that should be sat on by a Yokozuna.

Knowing me and my concerns for the world and humanity as you do, would I be correct in saying that you didn't mean the second paragraph I quoted to apply to me?
 
Last edited:
JoBelle said:
Take care of them, feed them, shelter them. Baby them in other words. And do it all out of your own pockets. Yep, y'all are right. I agree 100%.

Joby :sowrong:

Joby, you are a dear friend to me and a wonderful person, but I must say I think you have a stranger idea of the average fed. pen. than anyone I've ever heard express an opinion of such.

In Britain we have things called "open prisons". You probably have an equivalent in the US that goes by a different name. You'll probably know what I'm talking about when I say slack regime, weekend outings, nice cells, pool tables, swimming pools and hot and cold running female warders. This sort of prison is usually reserved for petty thieves who are doing a good job at getting rehabilitated, someone who battered someone in self defence using too much force and disgraced MP's who commit perjury. (Enjoying your holiday Jeffery Archer?😀) I've seen the inside of Class A quarters in British jails and seen fed. pens. on documentaries. I would have to say that I'd rather forcibly remove my tallywhacker with a blunt and rusty garden shovel, than spend a liftime in one of those.
 
So I agree with you, amk, that I would rather be executed than senteced to life at least if I had to spend life with "Benny the Bunghole Buster" to use BigJim's term. So what your saying is you think its a worse sentence to be sentenced to life imprisonment.
 
kurchatovium said:
So I agree with you, amk, that I would rather be executed than senteced to life at least if I had to spend life with "Benny the Bunghole Buster" to use BigJim's term. So what your saying is you think its a worse sentence to be sentenced to life imprisonment.

Even if "Benny" is nowhere near me, yes, I'd rather die than have to live in a cell for the rest of my life. And notice that the "open prisons" described by BigJim apply only to certain criminals, not murderers and the like. Well, that's it for me in this thread. You guys can have all the fun from here on out! 🙂
 
An addition to an old thread.

I was chatting with Tron in another thread the other day, and the death penalty came up as a side topic. I wrote rather a long post with some interesting statistics that reminded me of this thread.-------------------------------------------------

Duplicated from the post I made the other day.

Some facts about the death penalty. (With the jokes I originally inserted, left out and some spelling mistakes rectified after re-reading it.😀)


Deterrence

It has never been shown that the death penalty deters violent crimes more effectively than other punishments.
A survey by the UN on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates concluded, "Research has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still
gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis..."
Recent crime figures from countries which have abolished the death penalty do not show that abolishment had any harmful effects.
Race

83% of capital cases involve white victims, even though only 50% of murder victims are white.
It is much more likely for someone to receive the death penalty when the victim is white, than when the person is not.
Innocence

Since 1973, over 80 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.
Researchers Radelet & Bedau found 23 cases since 1900 where innocent people were executed.
Retiring Florida Supreme Court Justice Gerald Kogan said he had "grave doubts" about the guilt of some of the people executed in Florida: "There are several cases where I had grave doubts as to the guilt of a particular person." . Kogan was a former homicide detective and prosecutor before eventually rising to Chief Justice.
The number of innocent defendants released from death row has been steadily increasing over recent years. Between 1973 and October, 1993, there was an average of 2.5 innocent defendants released. Since then, the average has increased to 4.6 released per year.
According to a 1987 study, three hundred and fifty people convicted of capital crimes in the United States between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed.

Costs

One of the most comprehensive studies on the death penalty in the country found the death penalty to cost North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.
On a national basis, this translates to an extra cost of over $1 billion dollars since 1976.
In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, which is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell with the highest level of security for forty years.
A 1998 report from the Nebraska Judiciary Committee states that any savings from executing an inmate are outweighed by the financial legal costs. The report concluded that the current death penalty law does not serve the best interest of Nebraskans.
The Judicial Conference of the United States reported that the defense costs in cases where death was sought were about four times higher than in comparable cases where death was not sought. It was also found that the prosecution costs in death cases were 67% higher than the defense costs, without even including the investigative costs provided by law enforcement agencies.


I think that covers just about every argument for the death penalty, bar one. That argument is the "it'll make me feel better if we're able to kill some of our prisoners, because I'm full of hatred and vengeful feelings" argument. I can't really comment on that one, because I've not been personally touched by a case where the death penalty might have been a remedy. I don't think such feelings should effect a country's laws though. People who've lost loved ones to murderers are certainly entitled to feel them, but you can't run a country or a judiciary on sentiment. My profound sympathies are with anyone who's been in that position though. I've seen people in my job who have, so I do know what it feels like.
 
I think the people who have to "pull the trigger" become de-sensatized (is that even a word???) to certain aspects of their job. If they're guilty beyond a doubt, then the death penalty is fair. I did a report on the electric chair in 9th grade. As I recall they had pretty good graphics on the page I used. If it's still around, the link would be www.electricchair.com
 
Limeoutsider, the link you mentioned goes to a store for punk clothes...
 
The problem that I have with the death penalty is that...our legal system isn't perfect. We make mistakes. How many cases have we heard about where someone was set free after spending time in jail because new evidence that put his guilty in question or proved his innocence was found. I think the case for the death penalty becomes a little more compelling when someone has committed mass murder, because there would be very little doubt that the person committed the crime. But I fear the possible mistakes.
 
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