death penalty

[BigJim]

After sitting here, thinking about it, the answer would be yes. I think that something had to snap for them to committ the crime, and I don't believe in rehabilitating murders.

Then I feel sorry for you. You must have experienced something seriously horrible, to turn into such a vengeful and hate-filled person.

Executing children is the surest and fastest way to make sure society degrades even further. You can't create a better life in America by systematically removing from it by needle/chair/noose the products of it that offend you; and it's incredibly naive and heartless (not to mention utterly without compassion and original thought) to believe you can.

Does anyone actually have the creativity of mind to think that's it's society that needs changing so it stops producing or at least decreases the production rate, of individuals like Charles Manson, John Venables and Robert Thompson? Or are you so blinded by the shit that is forced down your throats from the day of your birth about how wonderful, fair, free and comely America is? It's none of these things. It's what you make it, and with people holding opinions like yours, (or even worse, lobbying politicians to adopt them) you're making it into a designer society, where anyone who's been twisted sufficiently by it is removed like an empty MacDonalds carton. That is rapidly approaching the state that made people afraid to breath the wrong way in Russia during the communist regime, or in Germany during the nazi regime.

I very much hope that you eventually come to terms with whatever tragedy it was that twisted you so badly.

 

[avethibaltus]

Just compare the crime rates between countries where the death penalty is used and those where it is not. Look at the size of the countries which use the death penalty and the percentage of the male population in prison at one time.

In Texas, where curious George was once Governor, they incarcerate (imprison) more people for more crap than most other states or countries. The system creates criminals, criminal institutions, and criminal breeding grounds. These people who justify the death penalty with biblical arguments (an eye for an eye) are the same ones who believe that methods used in "non christian" countries to punish theft (left hand, right hand, no hands) or fornication (death) for example are cruel and unusual punishments.

Fact is, in order for any punishment to work, it has to be swift, fair, and guaranteed. In Texas it takes between 12 and 15 years on average to execute someone, if they even get convicted. Most of these people are repeat offenders with criminal histories going back to their childhood and most of them are minorities.

For a judicial system to function the people must be convinced of the following:
All crimes will be punished with the full force of the law. The laws are fair and just.
The punishment fits the crime.
The trial process is unbiased.
The objective is to find the truth and serve justice.
Punishment is inevitable.

With this in mind, it will never happen in Texas and they'll continue executing people as much out of frustration as anything.

I personally support the death penalty but only if all of the above conditions have been met.

 

[BigJim]

Just compare the crime rates between countries where the death penalty is used and those where it is not. Look at the size of the countries which use the death penalty and the percentage of the male population in prison at one time.

Not only that, but look at countries who havn't stooped as low as to petulantly execute children, and you'll see that most of them hav'nt done it since at most 17th or 18th century, and in some cases since the middle ages.

Lime and Steve, you see what exhalted company your views put you in?


Ave I don't support the death penalty, but I do think that you raise some very intelligent and cogent points. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Oddjob0226]

After sitting here, thinking about it, the answer would be yes. I think that something had to snap for them to committ the crime, and I don't believe in rehabilitating murders.

Y not?

Is there any difference between, then:

A.) A killer kid who, by both law and tradition of the culture, is not recognized as an adult under any other circumstnces, and who became a killer by either bad parenting or neglectfulness (ie, kid in a bad mood, gun laying around with no adults in site... a plan hatches)

B.) A killer who shot someone that was breaking into their car to steal the stereo. The person made the conscious choice that being able to listen to Nelly Fertado was a greater priority than someone elses life.....

C.) Someone who kills because they have documented mental problems, yet society won't pay for medical treatment, just jails....

D.) People in war who serve because they joined up to go to medical school but if they don't go through with the fighting they will get court-marshalled & will look like jerks.....

E.) Millionares & billionares who don't kill but steal from corporations, so older & less hardy members of society, who, after years of being good people and doing what's right, only to have it all pulled out from under them so with the added stress & dispair they now feel, take their own lives....

F.) Someone who accidently kills someone else, like a cop shooting a kid, or a drunk camper killing another drunk camper in an argument, or someone pulls a gun out of her purse and inadvertantly shoots someone. Or a guy robbing a gas station and the gun accidently goes off...

F.) Someone who actively engages in murder or crimes that lead to killing becuase they chose fully do do such things out of greed, a macho ego rush, street cred, or whatever, thuggy idiots from gang bangers & drug dealers to biker gangs & Sopranos style mafia guys, all of them aware of right and wrong but chosing to ignore such trifles....

E.) And the wrongfully convicted who are now going to die.

Because, in the defining of "what is justice" all of these issues or similar have been wrestled with, questioned, examined & and debated since the ancient times of the Greeks, the Romans, Hammurabi, the Etruscians, Dick Clark, and even further back . And an exact, precise definition that fits all cases that the majority of society(ies) can agree upon is still not quite there yet.

 

[Limeoutsider]

I believe that if they did it, then later on, if they reminence over the murder, and they decided that they liked it, what's going to stop them from doing it again?

 

[Oddjob0226]

You can't create a better life in America by systematically removing from it by needle/chair/noose the products of it that offend you; and it's incredibly naive and heartless (not to mention utterly without compassion and original thought) to believe you can.

Well, if we are speaking in the terms of a philosophical debate, then it is perhaps posible that society would be kept at a healthy status quo, or possibly improved if such a thing was done(if by "offend" you mean a killer murdered someone by choice). If enough people see things the same way, have the same ideals, are willing to work towrds the same goals, and basically function the same way at all levels, then, yes, I could see this working. For example, the Nazis worked quite well for those who were Nazis.


Does anyone actually have the creativity of mind to think that's it's society that needs changing......

Sho' nuff.... it's the How, Who's Gonna Do It, Who's Gonna Pay For It, To What Extent Will It Go, & When that keeps bogging things down.....

 

[Limeoutsider]

Then I feel sorry for you. You must have experienced something seriously horrible, to turn into such a vengeful and hate-filled person.

My mother, but that's a totally different story.

 

[Oddjob0226]

My mother, but that's a totally different story.

Ah - so you see, from personal experince, how a parent's way of creating & rasisng a child will influence the child's outlook, behavior, view on the world, etc. You're beginning to understand that bad kids out there don't neccisarrily create themselves from nothing. Perhaps, then, the broken ones could be fixed.

 

[Limeoutsider]

Ah - so you see, from personal experince, how a parent's way of creating & rasisng a child will influence the child's outlook, behavior, view on the world, etc. You're beginning to understand that bad kids out there don't neccisarrily createthemselves from nothing. Perhapse, then the broken ones could be fixed.

Well she hasn't ruined my views on the world, yet, so far just her and me.

 

[ShiningIce]

🙁

 

[Limeoutsider]

🙁

Exactly Ice, exactly.

 

[BigJim]

Y not?

Is there any difference between, then:

A.) A killer kid who, by both law and tradition of the culture, is not recognized as an adult under any other circumstnces, and who became a killer by either bad parenting or neglectfulness (ie, kid in a bad mood, gun laying around with no adults in site... a plan hatches)

B.) A killer who shot someone that was breaking into their car to steal the stereo. The person made the conscious choice that being able to listen to Nelly Fertado was a greater priority than someone elses life.....

I know you used more than 2 examples Mike, but for the sake of brevity and the size of the post, I just used these two for my reply.

In short the answer is FUCKING HELL YES, THERE IS A BIG, MASSIVE, HUGE, ENOURMOUS BIG FUCK-OFF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, that's better........ 😀

The difference is this; an adult who kills can make a more informed choice about it. Any adult who even thinks for a second or two will know that there is some other way. Adults knows about the existence of psychiatrists. Adults know about drug and alcohol rehabilitation clinics. Adults know that robbing banks and people can cause human misery. Not only do they know about them, but they can think into the situation. An adult is more informed about the world generally. An adult has therefore more responsibility about the choices he or she makes. There may be deciding factors in how an adult makes such a choice, but an adult KNOWS it's wrong, and has the better capability fo dealing with their problems some other way.

A child on the other hand is much, much diferent. Children have little or no way of expressing themselves and their frustrations. If a child is being beaten or buggered by it's alcoholic father, they don't have the wherewithal to pick up a copy of the Yellow Pages and look for a psychiatrist. They would'nt be able to suggest alcohol councelling to a drunken parent. And they sure as hell won't have any chance of dealing with being in a care home full of paedophillic warders as Charles Manson was. In short, a child doesn't have as many resources as an adult and is unable to deal with the building emotional turmoil inside them, whatever it's cause. That is why people talk about children being 'innocent'. It's not because they are, it's because they're not as conditioned at hiding their inner selves from the world as adults are. A child will cry, laugh and physically lash out with much less restraint than a fully grown adult and this does apply to adolescents as well. They are are in the limbo between adulthood and being considered kids, but they are still stuck in a world they don't control (their legally appointed adult does) and if they're suffering because of it, they are 100% more likely to lash out unrestrained, than a grown man or woman would. These actions are not based on logic, or reasoned conscious thought!

THAT is why it is no only profoundly immoral to suggest that child criminals should be treated the same way as their adult counterparts, but utter lunacy as well. It shows that the mind that formulated such an opinion has little or no grasp of the fundementals of the situation, and one can only hope that such a mind never finds itself in power over a vulnerable child.

In short, well over half the reponsibility over the creation of a child killer/mugger/robber etc is due to the child's enviroment, rather than the child itself. It's little or no indication of whether the child will be a decent citizen once it reaches adulthood, or if it will be a moral person. That said, I would'nt treat a child offender the same as an adult even if it was in a country where the death penalty DID'NT exist. Trying to is a massive cop-out on behalf of a slow-witted idiot, with no respect for circumstances in their mind or compassion in their heart. I do agree that kids like Robert Thompson and John Venables should have goten more than they did. Michael Howard had a better idea than the trial judge did, although he was probably more concerned about vote-catching than justice. But to expect a child or (as in a lot of cases in the USA), a mentally retarded adult to be treated in the same way as an informed adult is idiocy of the highest order.


N.B. It may have come across in this post that I'm favour of the death penalty for adults, but not for children. That isn't the case, I was speaking really, for treating children the same as adult criminals, no matter what the penalty in question. But as we're talking mostly about America here, the death penalty was an appropriate issue.

 

[BigJim]

Ah - so you see, from personal experince, how a parent's way of creating & rasisng a child will influence the child's outlook, behavior, view on the world, etc. You're beginning to understand that bad kids out there don't neccisarrily createthemselves from nothing. Perhapse, then the broken ones could be fixed.

Just for the record, the broken ones CAN be fixed. I know that because I've seen it happen. I also know it because I'm a living example of what good an understanding adult, instead of a genocidal prick, can do to a kid who's in serious emotional trouble.

 

[BigJim]

Well she hasn't ruined my views on the world, yet, so far just her and me.

You agree with the execution of a 10 year old, but your views on the world aren't ruined?😕 Steve's got an excuse*, he spent 2 or 3 decades as a cop in a major American city. Is your mum your reason?


*It's not really an excuse, just an extremely poor and vaguely understandable reason.

 

[BigJim]

Does anyone actually have the creativity of mind to think that's it's society that needs changing......

Sho' nuff.... it's the How, Who's Gonna Do It, Who's Gonna Pay For It, To What Extent Will It Go, & When that keeps bogging things down.....

The nazis worked quite well for other nazis............ That is actually quite relavent and meaningful.


All it needs is for three rules to be observed by society.
1/ You're never afraid to express your individuality.
2/ You never stop anyone else from expressing theirs.
3/ You never seek to impose yourself or your version of reality on someone else.

If those rules were always observed you have quite literally. heaven on earth.
How? See above.

Who's gonna do it? Anyone who can be bothered to work for society's sake, instead of arbitarilly exterminating societies mistakes, because they don't look nice and shiny.

Who's gonna pay? Pay for what? Setting an example to other doesn't cost a cent? We don't need the police or government involved. It's OUR responsibility as citizens. The only expense is time and effort.

To what extent? To the ultimate extent. Observe rules 2 and 3 above and you never have towory about any extent. The whole concept goes right out the window.

When things keep bogging down? You don't give up, your get your arse in gear and you keep trying.

No-one's suggesting that such a strategy won't be full of trials and tumbles. Someone participating will have their brother, son, wife etc killed by a street criminal and they'll feel like all they want to do is donate to the George W. Bush "Pop a couple every week fund", but it's on those occasions when you really sort the men from the boys. The whole principle of a society like this is that you have to overcome instances like that. Saying that such a society is "too perfect and not possible" is the cowards cop-out. It IS possible if we can conceive it in our minds. Some here have obviously seen too many bad things to be able to. Too bad, but the rest of society can't let itself be dragged down by the dark side. And when the dark side comes calling, you gotta ride above it and deal with it in the most civilised way possible. And that doesn't include executing other expressions of humanity who were all toa larger or lesser extent, created by us nd the society we live in.

 

[Limeoutsider]

Also, Ive had bad experiences with kids, so I don't really like them.

 

[Oddjob0226]

I know you used more than 2 examples Mike, but for the sake of brevity and the size of the post, I just used these two for my reply.

In short the answer is FUCKING HELL YES, THERE IS A BIG, MASSIVE, HUGE, ENOURMOUS BIG FUCK-OFF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, that's better........ 😀

Yes... exactly MY point..... Well done.

 

[Oddjob0226]

All it needs is for three rules to be observed by society.

The nazis worked quite well for other nazis............ That is actually quite relavent and meaningful.

I know! At times I'm quite brilliant, you just gotta watch closely....


All it needs is for three rules to be observed by society.
1/ You're never afraid to express your individuality.
2/ You never stop anyone else from expressing theirs.
3/ You never seek to impose yourself or your version of reality on someone else.

If those rules were always observed you have quite literally. heaven on earth.
How? See above.

All's I'm saying is, with nearly 6 billion people on the planet, and 260 million people in the U.S. - from Amish methanphetemine dealers near El Paso TX, to vegan gang members in CA, real compassionate conservsatives in Washington DC, Buddist diabetic Korean War vetrans, gay Jewish skinhead conceptual artists in NYC, black Mormon Trekkies who read romance novels - and every other damn stripe of humanity in between it's amazing that were aren't breaking into millions of fistfights to the death daily, let alone all agree to the same thing about how everyone should be treated under all conditions.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Also, Ive had bad experiences with kids, so I don't really like them.

Hee hee - well, I can see THIS point! Shoo, there are times when waiting for them to become murderers is just too long a wait......

 

[Limeoutsider]

I dont thnk the neighbor kids will become murders....small time felons, yes, but not murdurers. (I'm not sure how you spell it!). Just a feeling from the way they go running around the neighborhood at all hours destroying everyone's property.

 

[Oddjob0226]

I dont thnk the neighbor kids will become murders....small time felons, yes, but not murdurers. (I'm not sure how you spell it!). Just a feeling from the way they go running around the neighborhood at all hours destroying everyone's property.

And they way they yell on airplanes, and in the super market, and figt with each other in line at the post office, they run in front of your cars, fill up the swiming pool at your apartment complex all day & night, then there's the cars, the cars that go boom when you're trying to sleep..... it's like, hello, abortion is, like, still legal isn't it???

 

[Limeoutsider]

I don't believe in abortion. I would like to see some laws passed over people who just have kids to keep collecting food stamps and welfare.

 

[Oddjob0226]

I don't believe in abortion.

Hang out in my neck of the woods & you'll become a believer!

 

[Limeoutsider]

That bad? What I don't understand is that when I listen to my music, they complain, but thye play their music so you can hear it for 3 blocks in any direction. 🙄 I want to live in the country, far far away from people.

 

[BigJim]

Re: All it needs is for three rules to be observed by society.

it's amazing that were aren't breaking into millions of fistfights to the death daily, let alone all agree to the same thing about how everyone should be treated under all conditions.

You'd be suprised how well people of different creeds, colours, religions and languages would get on if their best intentions weren't being sabotaged in the worst possible way.